I also played last friday for the first time in some weeks. My list is in the signature.
Won 2-1 against eldrazi and taxes Eldrazi Displacer is a real pain in the ass. I won game 3 by topdecking a Collective Brutality and draining. Opp made mistakes though...
1-1 against izzet phoenix
Won g1 with BB. Game 2 he won, but we didnt have time for g3 because he was very slow player.
1-2 against Titanshift
Very tough matchup. I managed to win g2 with disruption + HoB. The card sure puts some pressure, very happy to run it.
1-0 against GW value
one of the grindiest games I have ever played. Batterskull put some work for them, but at some point I had an active Gideon, a BB, 3 intangible virtues, and a gideon emblem. Creating a 5/5 vigilance flyier and a 6/6 ground vigilance knight per turn was too much value, even for GW...
Happy with the deck, Actually considering running a Nihil Spellbomb main, since GY seems to be dominant right now in modern. Might exchange it for my ZP main.
About Anguished Unmaking... It does seem very "useful", because it hits everything but lands. In a vacuum, it has applications for any matchup. Then problem is that 3cmc and 3 life is too steep a cost. I would rather have more specific and efficient answers. MB, I prefer Cast Out, because it offers the possibility to cycle (to look for a land, for example), and doesnt cost us life (which in control shells is a heavily used resource, BB + TS).
About wrath effects, if you are playing the aggro version, then no. But for the control one, they are compulsory. Reset the board and build it up again (hopefully faster than you opponent).
Hi, I am almost finished building my BW tokens deck, I got the new shocklands and just missing the fetchlands (and I will probably get the blue white one because marsh flats is quite expensive at the moment), so it is currently looking like this:
Do you think the mana base is ok as it is without fetchlands?
Also, if I remove Auriok champion from the mainboard (one page back some of you suggested just leaving itt in the SB), what should I exchange it for?
How the decks performs in the current meta? I was going to take it yesterdday to FNM but at the end I felt insecure without knwledge of the MU. My meta is heavy on black control (GDS, Jund and mono black control), then some Hollow one, phoenix, and burn decks, a single U tron around here.
The manabase is ok, but I would do something a bit more like this:
Going up to 24 is the right call IMO, but considering you play Legion's Landing, 23 might be okay. Add some extra dual lands, even in they are conditionally tapped, because you prefer to play the spells in your hand a turn late rather than simply not being able to cast them. Ghost quarter is a great card that offers so much value in the current meta (you can even use is as pseudo-fetch) but I see you play Spectral Procession in a fetch-less manabase, so you could try to avoid it, if you really dont want to play it (I would play it anyways).
I guess the second question would need first a question to yourself: Which kind of deck you wanna build? aggressive? control-ly? Basically aggro decks are more based on the white side of the deck, while black supports the control version better. Independently, some general tips:
- Sorin, Solemn Visitor is simply better than Elspeth, knight errant, so I would play 3-1 split for Sorin/Gideon.
- Because you dont play Thoughtseize, 4 Bitterblossoms or fetches, I really dont see any strong argument for playing 4 Auriok Champions main. I would go up 1 Path to exile, 2 BB/RtA depending on which kind of shell you want to work with, and another wild-card (see below).
- If you decide to use a control shell, then you should go up 1 hand disruption spell. If budget is an issue, then another duress could do work. Otherwise, Thoughtseize and Collective Brutality (I play 4 in my 75!!) will do the trick. Else, you should probably go up 1 Legion's landing to explode to the max the RtA synergy to have 4 mana turn 3.
- Zealous Persecution is a card that I like a lot. It gives us an edge against creature based decks and is back-breaking against faster creature decks like elves, goblins, old affinity, and even dredge.
As for the meta... just play it to get your own thoughts. This deck is very variable and changes a lot from version to version, so what people tell you wont really assess how well your deck performs, unless you have the exact same list. Go ahead and play it out. Jund is great MU (better the more BB you play), GDS is ridiculously good for us (just keep an eye on TBR and thats it), Hollow One are very SB-dependent, burn is really 50-50, and Tron is always tough, but blue should be easier.
As an example, I could see an aggro list like this (see this list for reference):
Move all your aggressive cards to the main. Focus on one goal, then bring BB in against control and midrange. Consider that I am using cards you already own or that are very budget-friendly, so the acquisition cost would be very low.
For a control shell, check my list in my signature (try to imagine a budget version based on the comments above).
I think surgical is really good against dredge. You typically want to target their enablers like bloodghasts or (to a lesser extent) narcomoeba. Without them, they cant bring any 3/3 from the gy. A legit plan is to also extirpate the 3/3s and control the smaller attackers until you draw a RiP.
Also, Kaya's wrath is not better than wrath of god or damnation: casting costs, ruins your manabase if you play GQ, the no regenerate clause is also important...
1.- Lingering Souls is the best, followed close by Bitterblossom. BB is more build dependent, so if you are running an aggro shell, it might not shine.
2.- I would personally just include a couple in the SB if you really want to play them. Otherwise dont. They are good in MU where we are already favoured, and burn, but collective brutality is more impactful there.
4.- Not worth it. Play 3 taplands max and let them be shambling vent. The lifelink is quite relevant in a deck full of BB and Thoughtseize.
5.- 4 is enough, Gideon, Ally of zendikar emblem can come up handy sometimes if you really need an extra pump effect. spear of heliod is just not good enough, and honor of the pure works better in monowhite versions, but is terrible with BB.
I ran a Cast Out in my main for a couple weeks (I know it is not much, but it is something) and it only felt good in 2 occasions:
1- When we were already ahead and opp had a nice (non-creature) topdeck. In that case you could argue as well that if we had had a threat in hand instead, we could close up the game before opp gets to that topdeck, so... meh.
2- When you **** up with SB. Opp playing soul sisters brought Ghostly Prison from SB. Didnt see it coming and had to scoop up with BB in play.
I dont like reducing the consistency of the deck but including catch-all low-efficiency answers. Before SB, we should try to do our thing the best we can, so Zealous Persecution has filled that gap for me (already shinning in the first FNM I played it in, winning me games against spirits and sort-of-affinity with blast effects). After SB, we should know what to bring in. You can of course make mistakes, but practice can help you in that regard. And if failing once against every matchup makes me learn and gets me to use more focused and efficient SB answers, then I am happy failing.
Maybe I am repeating some of what other people said but here go my opinions:
- Lands: I agree with the amount, but not so much with the content. GQ is better in our deck, I believe. I dont typically run more than 1 vault, you have 5 turns to find it anyway. Shambling Vent is a MUST, the card is so good when you flood, and helps with all the lifeloss we have in the main. As rule of thumb, I play 4-5 colorless sources AND 2-3 taplands. Isolated chapel is not very good anymore if you implement the aforementioned changes, so I would include a couple fetches more.
- PW: I dont know if ever tried Gideon, but I highly recommend him. I play 1, but feels great. Wouldnt mind going 1 up if I could find room for him. Sorin, LoI is definitely weaker than him, so you might want to split them or go 2 gideons. Sorin, SV is an all-star, 3 is perfect.
- Disruption: I personally like to run a playset of path to exile. It is, IMO, the BEST removal in modern, so easy 4-of. You could cut the 1-of Anguished Unmaking. I have played it, as well as cast out, in the main and conclusion was that, 90% of the time, I wish they were paths. I would also recommend finding room for another Thoughtseize, for example in place of the 2nd Sorin, LoI. Early hand disruption is SO important for us.
- Tokens: I have been trying History of Benalia the last 2 FNMs and I have crushed it (3-1 losing in very close matches). The deck feels so much better, so robust. I can apply pressure much easi- and rapidly. I know the card is pricey right now, but maybe by change you happen to have some around you or from a friend. They would replace RtA and Spectral (also makes the deck suffer less from colorless source pains when casting spectral).
- Sideboard: Looks pretty solid to me. Would go up RiP over the trap and the spellbombs. Extirpate < Surgical. Collective Brutality > Blessed Alliance. Wraths > Settle. Finally, and although I am a big fan of it, Pithing needle is not as effective as we would like, so I would replace it with some disenchant effects, which you are missing (to me, they are really important).
You can check the link in my signature for my list, hope it helps!
I made an excel sheet with my current deck list to estimate how strong cards in my main vs SB where, based on the swaps for each MU, and Lili was one of the weakest. That made me want to play 4of of the strongest cards only. Then, HoB had some great critics from other players and decided to try it. I hope this link works:
Here is the final list I ended up playing last FNM. Went 3-1 losing only to a UR deck playing crackling drake, thing in the ice, and pyromancer ascension... the guy went 4-0 :O. Won against jund, mardu, and 4c scapeshift. http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/25-01-17-RSg-bw-tokens/
HoB has been very powerful always and I have not missed Lili, which is really good, but in our deck works more like a winmore card. I see your point about cast out, but I wanted to try it. The cycling feels really sexy and I never felt like anguished did much for me when I used to play it. Since I am playing a more rounded version, it may become the 3rd push it has always been. Or even a ZP in the main. I think that is the only real flex-slot I have left, the rest of the deck feels reaaally strong.
It finally felt like the deck was offering the perfect balance between disruption and pressure.
Basically, 4 flex slots in the main are what I am still considering. To make it totally streamlined, I would probably need:
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1x Fatal Push/Thoughtseize
2x (Token Generator)
So far, I still dont feel like removing Lili entirely from the deck, but I believe having a way to end the game (like Gideon) might be more relevant in multiple occasions. Cast out is a card I want to try, and is taking the spot of a push currently. With the creature-heavy meta, this might be the wrong choice, but wanted to try it first. For the 2 other slots, I need token generators. 13 generators is where I feel the deck works better, and LL and Spectral can be very good. I might go up to 3 Start//Finish, to compensate for the loss of the 3rd push (in favour of cast out), or even a 4th one, to make it even more stream-lined.
SB-wise, very simple strategy:
Against creatures: ZP + 2 Wrath, 2 Collective Brutalities (5 cards)
Against control and combo: 2 Collective Brutalities, 3 Surgical Extraction (5 cards)
Against GY: 2 Rip, 3 Surgical (5 cards)
Against Artifacts: 3 Stony, 2 Disenchant (5 cards)
Any variations of the above archetypes (which I think are the most typical ones) will yield SB techs which are combinations of the ones shown. Having (at least) 5 cards for any kind of matchup feels really powerful. Mainly thanks to collective brutality. What a card that is.
Guys, back from Stockholm. The GP was really bad in terms of results since I went 1-3 drop (might as well do some tourism). Won against KCI round 1 and then I got gotten by 8rack, elves, and modular. All of them super close matches. The deck didnt feel weak at all. But all the matches were the same: excellent job at disrupting initial turns, and couldnt deploy a menace afterwards, so they could rebuild.
The only thing I would change is the 1-of damping sphere. I am looking at a 3rd wrath effect (ZP could be a good option too) or something else like a mindcensor or similar.
Agreed on that. Also, after checking the spreadsheet, it seems runed halo is not very well positioned in the current meta.
PS: I have added some scaling based on how good or bad the MU is (last column). High numbers in the main mean that we take a high number of cards out in bad matchups (so basically they are dead game 1). High numbers in the SB mean that we use this card against bad matchups, so I guess they have more impact in the game. I have been quite conservative with win-rates.
Next step is to include the share of the meta that each deck represents.
Won 2-1 against eldrazi and taxes
Eldrazi Displacer is a real pain in the ass. I won game 3 by topdecking a Collective Brutality and draining. Opp made mistakes though...
1-1 against izzet phoenix
Won g1 with BB. Game 2 he won, but we didnt have time for g3 because he was very slow player.
1-2 against Titanshift
Very tough matchup. I managed to win g2 with disruption + HoB. The card sure puts some pressure, very happy to run it.
1-0 against GW value
one of the grindiest games I have ever played. Batterskull put some work for them, but at some point I had an active Gideon, a BB, 3 intangible virtues, and a gideon emblem. Creating a 5/5 vigilance flyier and a 6/6 ground vigilance knight per turn was too much value, even for GW...
Happy with the deck, Actually considering running a Nihil Spellbomb main, since GY seems to be dominant right now in modern. Might exchange it for my ZP main.
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
About wrath effects, if you are playing the aggro version, then no. But for the control one, they are compulsory. Reset the board and build it up again (hopefully faster than you opponent).
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
The manabase is ok, but I would do something a bit more like this:
4 Concealed Courtyard
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Isolated Chapel
7 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Godless Shrine
Going up to 24 is the right call IMO, but considering you play Legion's Landing, 23 might be okay. Add some extra dual lands, even in they are conditionally tapped, because you prefer to play the spells in your hand a turn late rather than simply not being able to cast them. Ghost quarter is a great card that offers so much value in the current meta (you can even use is as pseudo-fetch) but I see you play Spectral Procession in a fetch-less manabase, so you could try to avoid it, if you really dont want to play it (I would play it anyways).
I guess the second question would need first a question to yourself: Which kind of deck you wanna build? aggressive? control-ly? Basically aggro decks are more based on the white side of the deck, while black supports the control version better. Independently, some general tips:
- Sorin, Solemn Visitor is simply better than Elspeth, knight errant, so I would play 3-1 split for Sorin/Gideon.
- Because you dont play Thoughtseize, 4 Bitterblossoms or fetches, I really dont see any strong argument for playing 4 Auriok Champions main. I would go up 1 Path to exile, 2 BB/RtA depending on which kind of shell you want to work with, and another wild-card (see below).
- If you decide to use a control shell, then you should go up 1 hand disruption spell. If budget is an issue, then another duress could do work. Otherwise, Thoughtseize and Collective Brutality (I play 4 in my 75!!) will do the trick. Else, you should probably go up 1 Legion's landing to explode to the max the RtA synergy to have 4 mana turn 3.
- Zealous Persecution is a card that I like a lot. It gives us an edge against creature based decks and is back-breaking against faster creature decks like elves, goblins, old affinity, and even dredge.
As for the meta... just play it to get your own thoughts. This deck is very variable and changes a lot from version to version, so what people tell you wont really assess how well your deck performs, unless you have the exact same list. Go ahead and play it out. Jund is great MU (better the more BB you play), GDS is ridiculously good for us (just keep an eye on TBR and thats it), Hollow One are very SB-dependent, burn is really 50-50, and Tron is always tough, but blue should be easier.
As an example, I could see an aggro list like this (see this list for reference):
4 Legion's Landing
4 Intangible Virtue
Land
2 Shambling Vent
4 Concealed Courtyard
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Isolated Chapel
7 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Godless Shrine
3 Fatal Push
4 Path to Exile
4 Raise the Alarm
1 Zealous Persecution
Sorcery
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
4 Spectral Procession
2 Duress
Planeswalker
3 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Rest in Peace
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Damping Sphere
3 Disenchant
2 Bitterblossom
3 Timely Reinforcements
Move all your aggressive cards to the main. Focus on one goal, then bring BB in against control and midrange. Consider that I am using cards you already own or that are very budget-friendly, so the acquisition cost would be very low.
For a control shell, check my list in my signature (try to imagine a budget version based on the comments above).
Hope this helps
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
Also, Kaya's wrath is not better than wrath of god or damnation: casting costs, ruins your manabase if you play GQ, the no regenerate clause is also important...
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
1.- Lingering Souls is the best, followed close by Bitterblossom. BB is more build dependent, so if you are running an aggro shell, it might not shine.
2.- I would personally just include a couple in the SB if you really want to play them. Otherwise dont. They are good in MU where we are already favoured, and burn, but collective brutality is more impactful there.
3.- Gideon, Ally of zendikar is superior in my opinion. Also, see answer 6.
4.- Not worth it. Play 3 taplands max and let them be shambling vent. The lifelink is quite relevant in a deck full of BB and Thoughtseize.
5.- 4 is enough, Gideon, Ally of zendikar emblem can come up handy sometimes if you really need an extra pump effect. spear of heliod is just not good enough, and honor of the pure works better in monowhite versions, but is terrible with BB.
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
1- When we were already ahead and opp had a nice (non-creature) topdeck. In that case you could argue as well that if we had had a threat in hand instead, we could close up the game before opp gets to that topdeck, so... meh.
2- When you **** up with SB. Opp playing soul sisters brought Ghostly Prison from SB. Didnt see it coming and had to scoop up with BB in play.
I dont like reducing the consistency of the deck but including catch-all low-efficiency answers. Before SB, we should try to do our thing the best we can, so Zealous Persecution has filled that gap for me (already shinning in the first FNM I played it in, winning me games against spirits and sort-of-affinity with blast effects). After SB, we should know what to bring in. You can of course make mistakes, but practice can help you in that regard. And if failing once against every matchup makes me learn and gets me to use more focused and efficient SB answers, then I am happy failing.
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
Maybe I am repeating some of what other people said but here go my opinions:
- Lands: I agree with the amount, but not so much with the content. GQ is better in our deck, I believe. I dont typically run more than 1 vault, you have 5 turns to find it anyway. Shambling Vent is a MUST, the card is so good when you flood, and helps with all the lifeloss we have in the main. As rule of thumb, I play 4-5 colorless sources AND 2-3 taplands. Isolated chapel is not very good anymore if you implement the aforementioned changes, so I would include a couple fetches more.
- PW: I dont know if ever tried Gideon, but I highly recommend him. I play 1, but feels great. Wouldnt mind going 1 up if I could find room for him. Sorin, LoI is definitely weaker than him, so you might want to split them or go 2 gideons. Sorin, SV is an all-star, 3 is perfect.
- Disruption: I personally like to run a playset of path to exile. It is, IMO, the BEST removal in modern, so easy 4-of. You could cut the 1-of Anguished Unmaking. I have played it, as well as cast out, in the main and conclusion was that, 90% of the time, I wish they were paths. I would also recommend finding room for another Thoughtseize, for example in place of the 2nd Sorin, LoI. Early hand disruption is SO important for us.
- Tokens: I have been trying History of Benalia the last 2 FNMs and I have crushed it (3-1 losing in very close matches). The deck feels so much better, so robust. I can apply pressure much easi- and rapidly. I know the card is pricey right now, but maybe by change you happen to have some around you or from a friend. They would replace RtA and Spectral (also makes the deck suffer less from colorless source pains when casting spectral).
- Sideboard: Looks pretty solid to me. Would go up RiP over the trap and the spellbombs. Extirpate < Surgical. Collective Brutality > Blessed Alliance. Wraths > Settle. Finally, and although I am a big fan of it, Pithing needle is not as effective as we would like, so I would replace it with some disenchant effects, which you are missing (to me, they are really important).
You can check the link in my signature for my list, hope it helps!
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11ds00ehulHNuMZAPbNA7bu6-NJQna1FhkICfAzOfDUM/edit?fbclid=IwAR1ozgI2HtVqy0Luefz4eDdZaU5ZBt4vY8P9BaQwDy7sh1O7EpU5kj_o5mM#gid=708924382
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/25-01-17-RSg-bw-tokens/
HoB has been very powerful always and I have not missed Lili, which is really good, but in our deck works more like a winmore card. I see your point about cast out, but I wanted to try it. The cycling feels really sexy and I never felt like anguished did much for me when I used to play it. Since I am playing a more rounded version, it may become the 3rd push it has always been. Or even a ZP in the main. I think that is the only real flex-slot I have left, the rest of the deck feels reaaally strong.
It finally felt like the deck was offering the perfect balance between disruption and pressure.
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
4x Lingering Souls
2x Start
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4x Intangible Virtue
3x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Thoughtseize
2x Collective Brutality
2x Fatal Push
4x Path to Exile
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Cast Out
1x Legion's Landing
1x Spectral Procession
2x Godless Shrine
4x Concealed Courtyard
4x Marsh Flats
2x Plains
1x Polluted Delta
3x Shambling Vent
2x Swamp
1x Vault of the Archangel
2x Windswept Heath
2x Collective Brutality
2x Disenchant
3x Stony Silence
2x Rest in Peace
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Zealous Persecution
1x Wrath of God
1x Damnation
Basically, 4 flex slots in the main are what I am still considering. To make it totally streamlined, I would probably need:
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1x Fatal Push/Thoughtseize
2x (Token Generator)
So far, I still dont feel like removing Lili entirely from the deck, but I believe having a way to end the game (like Gideon) might be more relevant in multiple occasions. Cast out is a card I want to try, and is taking the spot of a push currently. With the creature-heavy meta, this might be the wrong choice, but wanted to try it first. For the 2 other slots, I need token generators. 13 generators is where I feel the deck works better, and LL and Spectral can be very good. I might go up to 3 Start//Finish, to compensate for the loss of the 3rd push (in favour of cast out), or even a 4th one, to make it even more stream-lined.
SB-wise, very simple strategy:
Against creatures: ZP + 2 Wrath, 2 Collective Brutalities (5 cards)
Against control and combo: 2 Collective Brutalities, 3 Surgical Extraction (5 cards)
Against GY: 2 Rip, 3 Surgical (5 cards)
Against Artifacts: 3 Stony, 2 Disenchant (5 cards)
Any variations of the above archetypes (which I think are the most typical ones) will yield SB techs which are combinations of the ones shown. Having (at least) 5 cards for any kind of matchup feels really powerful. Mainly thanks to collective brutality. What a card that is.
Thoughts are very much welcome! Thanks
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
The only thing I would change is the 1-of damping sphere. I am looking at a 3rd wrath effect (ZP could be a good option too) or something else like a mindcensor or similar.
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
PS: I have added some scaling based on how good or bad the MU is (last column). High numbers in the main mean that we take a high number of cards out in bad matchups (so basically they are dead game 1). High numbers in the SB mean that we use this card against bad matchups, so I guess they have more impact in the game. I have been quite conservative with win-rates.
Next step is to include the share of the meta that each deck represents.
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic