I was actually considering Tracker and Copter in the flex slots for a build without BBE (which I'm not convinced about for this deck).
Thicket works much better with the manarocks over the dorks so it is probably a slightly different approach to the deck.
With 4x Talisman I can see some number of Mutavault (or Ghost Quarter) as an option for the deck for some more utility.
With Ancient Stirrings I think that having less than 4x Caverns is ok since you can dig for them if it gets countered it means less counters for the creatures.
I agree that an elfless dorkless build changes everything specifically making thicket much better. I still don't like copter or tracker in this build though.
What do you think about Smuggler's Copter in this deck (1-2x copies) ?
It is a Stirrings hit and provides evasion and looting to the deck.
Another card which might be playable here is Tireless Tracker (potentially in the Ooze slot) to provide the some card draw to the deck.
A copy of Sea Gate Wreckage doesn't sound too bad in this deck as well (I play one in all my Eldrazi decks).
As far as the 1x Forked Bolt flex slot what about a copy of Crater's Claws (ferocious is very reasonable here and this can be a finisher in the deck)
or maybe Lash Out (as a Searing Blaze imitation, this deck should be good at clashing) ?
Some more "boring" options can be Flame Slash/Roast.
I don't think copter is very good... With so many live hits on Stirrings I don't see why I would ever want a copter oversmasher, tks, temple, cavern vs blue or other lands to help cast elf.
Tireless tracker is a fine card but you have to remember with matter reshaper and bbe we are already generating automatic advantage directly on the battlefield. Also tracker generates a lot more value in fetch heavy decks and I don't think it's worth it for us to play and more than 2 fetches.
Sea gate Wreckage can fit into that one flex spot where wolf run is... You just have to decide which you like better as our land base is in my opinion very well tuned. I do think at this point it is either correct to run 5 dork 22 land or 4 dork 23 land in which case you would have room for 2 colorless flex lands.
4 cavern
4 Grove
4 karplusan
2 Foothills
1 stomping
1 Forest
1 mountain
4 Temple
1 flex
5th dork or second flex
Side note, Copperline is just bad in this deck.
I think 4 bolt 2 dismember are becoming universally accepted but that 1 forked bolt could be anything... Craters claws could be worth testing but I firmly believe you want this to be a 1 cmc spell. Remember you want to limit the number of cards dead on an empty board state with bbe versions.
Heard about this deck when BBE got unbanned, surprised to see it was making a splash recently and won GP without it. Btw since no one seems to have posted here is the GP top 8 deklists (omg so much tron):
I watched the twitch stream and saw all of Gregorz matches he was featured. Deck doesn't come across like a perfectly constructed work of art like Mardu Pyromancer (IMO), it definately looks Jank even in matches. However, it has a burst to it unlike most midrange in the format. For those asking about Noble Hierarch vs. Talisman of Impulse Hierarch exalt was quite important in numerous cases, often in multiples and making a 7/7 trampler. Also you lose 3rd color possibility when playing Engineered Explosives. I'd stick to hierarch for now. I think Scavenging Ooze vs Relic of Progenitus is a harder choice main deck. Ability to turn goyf into 0/1 and cantrip is quite good, and with the manabases being ran ooze doesn't seem quite as good. Ooze seems more valuable as another early threat and ability to gain life and better disable targeted graveyard cards like Snapcaster.
Manabase both in 5-0 MTGO and GP deck I'm not a huge fan of. The 4x Cavern of Souls especially. Several times in GP matches was put on human just to be able to play hierarch. Commentators even joked if one didn't know better would think playing against 5c humans. I can see keeping 2x caverns for counterspell protection but this doesn't seem good as a playset. It also nonbos with ooze and any colored spell from SB. I'm also not a fan of the Copperline Gorge in the MTGO list as deck wants to be playing 4-5cc spells and this will be awkward to play tapped. On the other hand the playset of Grove of the Burnwillows is perfect as a painless tri-land here which doubles as anti Death's Shadow.
Wanted to also note a similar deck I had watched streamed by Jeff Hoogland (also why was intrigued by R/G enldrzi), a W/G version:
Btw his newest list actually gets the Ancient Stirrings in maindeck as well as Engineered Explosives. Jeff normally plays extra basics to benefit off of paths and minimize hurt from Blood Moon. His manabase is what I'm most interested to compare, he manages to get 13 colorless sources from land + play hierarch + 17 sources of green turn 1. Key card (which I'd play over cavern) is Hashep Oasis which both provides colorless, and green, but also provides a pump for essentially 4 mana for smusher. I'd also look to get to 4 fetches and at least 3 basics in. Using BBE I'd trim the bird and go with 23 lands as MTGO list did also.
I also agree above that I don't think Blood moon is good tech for this deck. I'm assuming the player ran in SB because of idea of getting it off BBE cascade. The 2x Crumble to Dust were very important for Gregorz against Tron, and vitally it can be pulled from Ancient Stirrings as its devoid/colorless.
Dismember is interesting, and unless some weird phyrexian mana ruling it should be free with BBE cascade so if anything it gets better. Btw in one match he did manage to double dismember an ulamog and then attacked through for the win lol.
The Endbringer seemed the worst card in the deck in matches I saw. Often discarded (liliana/karn/thoughtseize), and one time played it just chump blocked. Seems obvious spot to switch for BBE along with the mind stone and forked bolt. I also similarly don't like look of hazoret in the list, that card makes more sense in a ponza shell. With BBE already have 12 main deck creatures with haste.
Am curious to see Gregorz tutorial/breakdown, and hope he discusses BBE. He was asked about BBE/Jace after he won and his thoughts of new meta and he seemed kind of "meh we'll see" .
He is a Polish professional MTG player who has a GP win and 4 other top 8s, as well as 12 Pro Tours under his belt not to mention an established testing team. I will have faith in his mana base. You dont just put a random manabase together and get 7 wins at a pro tour followed by a GP win... I would consider it tuned until someone more established says so.
If you read through his article you will gain insight on a lot of his choices but I do believe POST BBE and Jace unban the deck has room for further development with the spells. Specifically, I agree with some of the points you brought up earlier, Endbringer, Ooze, Forked Bolt, dismember, and the mind stone all seem highly flexible. Some cards that can be tested include Relic, Talisman, BBE, MD Engineered Explosives, and others.
Glad to see interest for the deck is picking up again. I'll make a primer for it in the coming weeks since it will probably see some play now.
EDIT: Well it made top8 at GP Lyon. Looks like I should really make that primer now.... and I probably should have never removed it from Developing Competitive
Make that a victory in GP Lyons. Gregorz has said he will be releasing a deck guide article here shortly. Also, the possibility of BBE is a fun consideration moving forward.
Side side note, Replacing the Blood Moon's with Blood Sun's seems super legit.... Shutting down GQ, Inkmoth, Blinkmoth, Field of Ruin, and a multitude of other utility lands people are running right now. The only negative effect on you would be shutting down caverns that come down post blood sun.
Replace Hazoretx2 with Rhonasx2. The Relic's are great MD vs a ton of decks right now... Mardu Pyromancer, opposing goyfs, storm, snapcaster mages, hollow one, dredge, all the traverse decks....
Also having only 4 Stirrings and potentially a good boltable target is not enough for an ideal first turn in this format, jace or not... You want some kind of action on t1 and Relic provides more spells to cast t1, go with dorks if you really dont like relic but just remember the card draw is incredibly relevant.
I do agree about Blood Moon, relying completely on talisman and 1 basic forest with no fetches to cast your spells seems really loose with or without stirrings.
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I agree that an elfless dorkless build changes everything specifically making thicket much better. I still don't like copter or tracker in this build though.
Cavern is much better at curving v noble into bbe than thicket. You have to remember cavern can help you cast any colored creature.
Also in an anticipated Jace blue deck metagame I will have my 4 caverns until I see a reason not to.
I don't think copter is very good... With so many live hits on Stirrings I don't see why I would ever want a copter oversmasher, tks, temple, cavern vs blue or other lands to help cast elf.
Tireless tracker is a fine card but you have to remember with matter reshaper and bbe we are already generating automatic advantage directly on the battlefield. Also tracker generates a lot more value in fetch heavy decks and I don't think it's worth it for us to play and more than 2 fetches.
Sea gate Wreckage can fit into that one flex spot where wolf run is... You just have to decide which you like better as our land base is in my opinion very well tuned. I do think at this point it is either correct to run 5 dork 22 land or 4 dork 23 land in which case you would have room for 2 colorless flex lands.
4 cavern
4 Grove
4 karplusan
2 Foothills
1 stomping
1 Forest
1 mountain
4 Temple
1 flex
5th dork or second flex
Side note, Copperline is just bad in this deck.
I think 4 bolt 2 dismember are becoming universally accepted but that 1 forked bolt could be anything... Craters claws could be worth testing but I firmly believe you want this to be a 1 cmc spell. Remember you want to limit the number of cards dead on an empty board state with bbe versions.
Focusing just on the RG Eldrazi which this forum is about, here is the article written by the GP Winner Gregorz Kowalski: http://www.hareruyamtg.com/article/en/sp/category/detail/275
He is a Polish professional MTG player who has a GP win and 4 other top 8s, as well as 12 Pro Tours under his belt not to mention an established testing team. I will have faith in his mana base. You dont just put a random manabase together and get 7 wins at a pro tour followed by a GP win... I would consider it tuned until someone more established says so.
If you read through his article you will gain insight on a lot of his choices but I do believe POST BBE and Jace unban the deck has room for further development with the spells. Specifically, I agree with some of the points you brought up earlier, Endbringer, Ooze, Forked Bolt, dismember, and the mind stone all seem highly flexible. Some cards that can be tested include Relic, Talisman, BBE, MD Engineered Explosives, and others.
Make that a victory in GP Lyons. Gregorz has said he will be releasing a deck guide article here shortly. Also, the possibility of BBE is a fun consideration moving forward.
Side side note, Replacing the Blood Moon's with Blood Sun's seems super legit.... Shutting down GQ, Inkmoth, Blinkmoth, Field of Ruin, and a multitude of other utility lands people are running right now. The only negative effect on you would be shutting down caverns that come down post blood sun.
Replace Hazoretx2 with Rhonasx2. The Relic's are great MD vs a ton of decks right now... Mardu Pyromancer, opposing goyfs, storm, snapcaster mages, hollow one, dredge, all the traverse decks....
Also having only 4 Stirrings and potentially a good boltable target is not enough for an ideal first turn in this format, jace or not... You want some kind of action on t1 and Relic provides more spells to cast t1, go with dorks if you really dont like relic but just remember the card draw is incredibly relevant.
I do agree about Blood Moon, relying completely on talisman and 1 basic forest with no fetches to cast your spells seems really loose with or without stirrings.