...I've been thinking about picking up Eldrazi and Taxes... how vital is aether vial for the deck to work?... would Thraben inspector be a useable replacement?...
However, if you look closely at how both those decks function you'll see that they've been heavily tweaked to run different gameplans.
Trying to make a no-Vial no-Chalice build (i.e. a "budget" version) workable is going to take some brewing design/thought on your part to make a coherent gameplan. Can you rely on racing the opponent without that virtual mana available from Vial? Is Wisp still good enough without it? Does the deck need more card draw (Copter, Inspector, etc.) if it can't rely on Vial tricks? You might also want to look into the no-Vial 'Jason Simard' build from GP Vancouver to see if any of those ideas could help with what you're able to work with.
... Obviously Smasher would be pretty impactful on those matches (I wouldn't side them in otherwise). However, I couldn't cast them without giving up cycling my Silent Clearings into something that could make a difference faster.
Did you already crack other Clearings before reaching that point?
I ask because "4-lands out, but can't cast Smasher" is a situation that could happen even if those Silent Clearings were Concealed Courtyards. Having more options isn't a bad thing (unless you're driving yourself insane).
That said, if you found you were cracking lands faster than normal in a typical game, and thus reaching 4cmc-5cmc is a couple turns slower in any given game, that's a different story. Going from ~4xGQ being the only consumable lands up to 7x-8x between GQ and SC might actually be a significant increase.
Basically, I'm wondering if it's a playstyle thing, where you have to sandbag a bit more (instead of cycling) when you've sided in Smashers.
Just one quick question? What do you guys want to see forum the primer update and how would you like me to make contributions? PM if it’s something in great detail.
I dunno if it'd be best posted somewhere on the front page Primer, in the Leonin Library, or stapled chronologically into the thread as quarterly updates... but I was a big fan of the "LSV Set Review"-esque thing that you did a couple times here highlighting D&T-relevant pickups. (Though I can't find an example to link to for the life of me.)
They sort of made for neat old signposts like "Oh yeah, AKH/HOU had some neat stuff like GBI, GideonOTT, Shefet Dunes, and Dusk/Dawn." especially when there's some 20/20-hindsight followup somewhere with the "Dang. We were totally sleeping on Thraben Inspector, guys." type commentary.
I've tried it ages ago (pre-AER), and retried it recently with Militia Bugler.
Initially, with nothing but once-per-turn topdeck draws it was very iffy getting the card in the games you needed it. So some games you drew Vial and Eidolon in that order and were golden, other games you got Eidolon without Vial and were screwed, and some games you're just wishing you'd draw the damn Eidolon. It was extremely high variance, but the goods never felt as great or as frequent as they needed to be.
With Bugler I found I was much more able to dig into Eidolons when I needed them, or filter past them when I couldn't play around them myself. This really reduced the variance and made them much more survivable. I'm not sure how truly viable it makes them, but it definitely feels much better than before. (It was also nice playing them with 2xCopter as Eidolons do about as much combat as the average Tidehollow Sculler.)
I don't have any sort of polished list, but will mention Scab-Clan Berserker works great as copies 5-X of Eidolon, and recommend heavily skewing the manabase toward red if you're considering this much double-red.
...So on T3 you would have about a 75-85% chance to hit with the standard mono white 14-18 hits (14 assumes you have a couple hits in hand when you cast it)...
Sure, an oldschool "Classic" Monowhite build might run something like 4xWisp 4xResto and 2xBigFlex (e.g. 3/X bodies like Brimaz, Serra, BigSisThalia) and would have about 10-in-28 bodies unfindable by Bugler... but you're not really going to slot Bugler into a list like that by trimming Thalias, Arbiters, etc.
If you trim about half the top-end to make room for Bugler, so that only 5-in-28 bodies whiff, then your T3 odds jump from 75-85% up to something more like 85-92% and it gets really hard to completely whiff with Bugler.
However, the most important thing about Bugler isn't that he simply replaces himself like a Matter Reshaper or something; the important thing is that he digs like a beast for what you want. If you're on a solid opener like T1 Vial T2 Thalia and your opponent kills Thalia because they really want to combo off later, then T3 Bugler is going to dig into a replacement Thalia for you to vial-in about 23% of the time. Yeah, it's not a sure thing, but it's definitely better than waiting on a topdeck. If you break it down into different outcomes it's 23% get the replacement Thalia we'd want, another 18% to get a retry with a second Bugler, then another 45% chance to card-replace with anything else, and only 14% chance to completely whiff. That distribution skews pretty nicely in our favor.
The other great thing about the card is how often it lets you see every part of your deck. Just landing one or two Buglers makes it really hard to "draw the wrong half of your deck" since you get to churn through so many more cards than usual, which really ups the consistency of the deck. In playtesting I've had 2x includes feel like 3x-4x includes I've been seeing them so often, which is just great for usually-decent-but-situationally-great maindeck cards (and phenomenal for sideboard tech). This actually opens up new deck-design considerations, as 2x includes of creatures like Vryn Wingmare or Aven Mindcensor (which can really put the screws to an opponent when we're ahead on a certain axis, but are quite lackluster when we're behind) can be more viable with Bugler there to filter to/through them.
Hey All! I know how much you nerds love seeing some data on the thread...
...So here's a hit-percentage table I made for everyone's favorite new card: Militia Bugler. Take a look, leave a like, and DM me here on mtgSalvation if you find any mistakes or have any ideas for improvements.
No splash at all, and the list is...
Any kind of advice or guide for sideboard/match ups is welcome
It might feel pretty unsplashed since the manabase isn't splashing for any specific color, but there's actually a significant Eldrazi splash you have going on with the 4xDisplacer 3xTKS and 4xTemple.
Part of your trouble with the posted list versus Affinity specifically is that you're so low on early 1-mana plays and fliers. Running Thraben Inspector can help you chump-clog the ground a bit earlier so you aren't dead as quickly due to lack of blockers. Some cheap fliers can also help in those instances where you don't have a Path/GQ ready versus a Ravager-pumped Inkmoth.
After seeing some of Catmix's success (shuffler be damned!) with Baby-Batterskull I thought I'd give the card a spin. I'm really liking it so far in my testing of a low-curve BW list.
I've been having some luck in the tourney practice room. It feels real grindy since their removal is stretched thin between GBI being a house and all the Scullers stealing cards. Lot of fun so far. Sideboard help would be appreciated; right now it's basically empty with just the 4th GBI and Freebooters 3-4 in there.
Also, man am I wishing I bought more Kytheon before the DOM spoilers came out; the MTGO cost has doubled since Mox Amber, etc. and all the "legendary matters" news came out.
Has anyone ever tried using creatures with Ghostly Prison effects? ... It seems to me that if any of those were 3 CMC that would be perfect.
Archangel of Tithes shows up every now and then as a 1-of, but if you include sideboards then non-creature Ghostly Prison itself shows up about 10x as often on mtgTop8.
I haven't heard of anyone using Muse despite it's less white-strict mana cost (I assume because it's a 4cmc "dies to Bolt" creature). The new creature you mention is at least Bolt proof so there's a chance it might get tested, but the Angel is probably still better due to evasion and the blockers-tax effect (unless there's a new way to bank on some sort of humans, soldiers, or legends tribal synergy).
If we could guarantee at least trading 2-for-2 like that (with us getting to Vindicate our choice of on-board permanents) then Mangara would be amazing, but he usually dies before summoning sickness wears off and allows him to tap for his ability (i.e. he usually only trades 1-for-1 for removal).
Fiend Hunter is a bit different because (although he can't steal a game as strongly as a multi-recycled Mangara) it is flexible enough to generally a better card even when we don't get to pull off the double-exile trick with it. Fiend Hunter can slow the bleeding by temporarily holding a Goyf in exile, it can facilitate combat tricks by removing attackers/blockers, and a 1/3 isn't a completely useless fighter on the battlefield compared to Mangara being a 1/1.
Long story short, the ceiling is higher on Mangara (compared to Fiend Hunter) but the floor is also much lower.
3) Mangara of corondor x2 main board not many shells run him at all why is that? (i know the combo is not as good as the legacy version but man this combo has closed out games for me so far and is fairly unexpected when you attack their manabase. The availability of 2 eldrazi displacers and 4 flicker/4 angels is pretty good.)
There's an idea bounced around this thread that we call the "The Mangara Problem" (which I believe CharonsObal coined).
Basically, the card can do some great tricks and run away with games if you're well positioned and/or a little lucky, however there are far too many instances where your opponent will simply target removal at the guy before he gets to generate any value (beyond the 1-for-1 value as a removal-magnet).
Your list (with 4xWisp, 2xDisp, and 4xResto) definitely has enough flicker effects to minimize your chance of drawing Mangara without lining up a flicker trick, but most people still don't run the guy because removal is so prevalent in most metas.
Fingers definitely crossed on a Karakas reprint in DOM, though. Or hopefully at least a nerfed "target legendary creature you control" version.
Welcome to the forum. Picking up a stock 5-0 list (with maybe a budget replacement or two) to start playing is good advice. I think consensus in this forum is that a classic style Monowhite build is an especially great place to learn the ins and outs of the deck (though BW Eldrazi is a fine deck too if you already own those cards).
For Monowhite, Justin Prigel's recent decklist is a good stock list to start with. If you're on a bit of a budget you can definitely replace Horizon Canopy with Shefet Dunes and basic Plains without changing the feel of the deck. However, if you're on an extreme budget and can't afford some combination of Thalia/Path/Vial then it'll be very hard for us to give sound advice on a starter list.
Good luck and happy taxing.
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That said, something like the most recently posted 'SpiderSpace' MonoWhite Eldrazi/Stompy list on mtgGoldfish shows that running 4xVial isn't a requirement to win games (though the 4xChalice of the Void are even more expensive than Vial).
However, if you look closely at how both those decks function you'll see that they've been heavily tweaked to run different gameplans.
Trying to make a no-Vial no-Chalice build (i.e. a "budget" version) workable is going to take some brewing design/thought on your part to make a coherent gameplan. Can you rely on racing the opponent without that virtual mana available from Vial? Is Wisp still good enough without it? Does the deck need more card draw (Copter, Inspector, etc.) if it can't rely on Vial tricks? You might also want to look into the no-Vial 'Jason Simard' build from GP Vancouver to see if any of those ideas could help with what you're able to work with.
I ask because "4-lands out, but can't cast Smasher" is a situation that could happen even if those Silent Clearings were Concealed Courtyards. Having more options isn't a bad thing (unless you're driving yourself insane).
That said, if you found you were cracking lands faster than normal in a typical game, and thus reaching 4cmc-5cmc is a couple turns slower in any given game, that's a different story. Going from ~4xGQ being the only consumable lands up to 7x-8x between GQ and SC might actually be a significant increase.
Basically, I'm wondering if it's a playstyle thing, where you have to sandbag a bit more (instead of cycling) when you've sided in Smashers.
They sort of made for neat old signposts like "Oh yeah, AKH/HOU had some neat stuff like GBI, GideonOTT, Shefet Dunes, and Dusk/Dawn." especially when there's some 20/20-hindsight followup somewhere with the "Dang. We were totally sleeping on Thraben Inspector, guys." type commentary.
Initially, with nothing but once-per-turn topdeck draws it was very iffy getting the card in the games you needed it. So some games you drew Vial and Eidolon in that order and were golden, other games you got Eidolon without Vial and were screwed, and some games you're just wishing you'd draw the damn Eidolon. It was extremely high variance, but the goods never felt as great or as frequent as they needed to be.
With Bugler I found I was much more able to dig into Eidolons when I needed them, or filter past them when I couldn't play around them myself. This really reduced the variance and made them much more survivable. I'm not sure how truly viable it makes them, but it definitely feels much better than before. (It was also nice playing them with 2xCopter as Eidolons do about as much combat as the average Tidehollow Sculler.)
I don't have any sort of polished list, but will mention Scab-Clan Berserker works great as copies 5-X of Eidolon, and recommend heavily skewing the manabase toward red if you're considering this much double-red.
Sure, an oldschool "Classic" Monowhite build might run something like 4xWisp 4xResto and 2xBigFlex (e.g. 3/X bodies like Brimaz, Serra, BigSisThalia) and would have about 10-in-28 bodies unfindable by Bugler... but you're not really going to slot Bugler into a list like that by trimming Thalias, Arbiters, etc.
If you trim about half the top-end to make room for Bugler, so that only 5-in-28 bodies whiff, then your T3 odds jump from 75-85% up to something more like 85-92% and it gets really hard to completely whiff with Bugler.
However, the most important thing about Bugler isn't that he simply replaces himself like a Matter Reshaper or something; the important thing is that he digs like a beast for what you want. If you're on a solid opener like T1 Vial T2 Thalia and your opponent kills Thalia because they really want to combo off later, then T3 Bugler is going to dig into a replacement Thalia for you to vial-in about 23% of the time. Yeah, it's not a sure thing, but it's definitely better than waiting on a topdeck. If you break it down into different outcomes it's 23% get the replacement Thalia we'd want, another 18% to get a retry with a second Bugler, then another 45% chance to card-replace with anything else, and only 14% chance to completely whiff. That distribution skews pretty nicely in our favor.
The other great thing about the card is how often it lets you see every part of your deck. Just landing one or two Buglers makes it really hard to "draw the wrong half of your deck" since you get to churn through so many more cards than usual, which really ups the consistency of the deck. In playtesting I've had 2x includes feel like 3x-4x includes I've been seeing them so often, which is just great for usually-decent-but-situationally-great maindeck cards (and phenomenal for sideboard tech). This actually opens up new deck-design considerations, as 2x includes of creatures like Vryn Wingmare or Aven Mindcensor (which can really put the screws to an opponent when we're ahead on a certain axis, but are quite lackluster when we're behind) can be more viable with Bugler there to filter to/through them.
Militia Bugler Math
GoogleDoc: Here
Hey All! I know how much you nerds love seeing some data on the thread...
...So here's a hit-percentage table I made for everyone's favorite new card: Militia Bugler. Take a look, leave a like, and DM me here on mtgSalvation if you find any mistakes or have any ideas for improvements.
Part of your trouble with the posted list versus Affinity specifically is that you're so low on early 1-mana plays and fliers. Running Thraben Inspector can help you chump-clog the ground a bit earlier so you aren't dead as quickly due to lack of blockers. Some cheap fliers can also help in those instances where you don't have a Path/GQ ready versus a Ravager-pumped Inkmoth.
Yeah, if Inspector and Copter taught us anything, it's that white getting more draw/filtering with a body is at least worth testing.
After seeing some of Catmix's success (shuffler be damned!) with Baby-Batterskull I thought I'd give the card a spin. I'm really liking it so far in my testing of a low-curve BW list.
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Extended Core
4 Thraben Inspector
3 Smuggler's Copter
3 Flickerwisp
4 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
3 Glory-Bound Initiate
2 Kitesail Freebooter
2 Athreos, God of Passage
Land
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
2 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Tectonic Edge
4 Plains
1 Swamp
Also, man am I wishing I bought more Kytheon before the DOM spoilers came out; the MTGO cost has doubled since Mox Amber, etc. and all the "legendary matters" news came out.
I haven't heard of anyone using Muse despite it's less white-strict mana cost (I assume because it's a 4cmc "dies to Bolt" creature). The new creature you mention is at least Bolt proof so there's a chance it might get tested, but the Angel is probably still better due to evasion and the blockers-tax effect (unless there's a new way to bank on some sort of humans, soldiers, or legends tribal synergy).
Fiend Hunter is a bit different because (although he can't steal a game as strongly as a multi-recycled Mangara) it is flexible enough to generally a better card even when we don't get to pull off the double-exile trick with it. Fiend Hunter can slow the bleeding by temporarily holding a Goyf in exile, it can facilitate combat tricks by removing attackers/blockers, and a 1/3 isn't a completely useless fighter on the battlefield compared to Mangara being a 1/1.
Long story short, the ceiling is higher on Mangara (compared to Fiend Hunter) but the floor is also much lower.
Basically, the card can do some great tricks and run away with games if you're well positioned and/or a little lucky, however there are far too many instances where your opponent will simply target removal at the guy before he gets to generate any value (beyond the 1-for-1 value as a removal-magnet).
Your list (with 4xWisp, 2xDisp, and 4xResto) definitely has enough flicker effects to minimize your chance of drawing Mangara without lining up a flicker trick, but most people still don't run the guy because removal is so prevalent in most metas.
Fingers definitely crossed on a Karakas reprint in DOM, though. Or hopefully at least a nerfed "target legendary creature you control" version.
Welcome to the forum. Picking up a stock 5-0 list (with maybe a budget replacement or two) to start playing is good advice. I think consensus in this forum is that a classic style Monowhite build is an especially great place to learn the ins and outs of the deck (though BW Eldrazi is a fine deck too if you already own those cards).
For Monowhite, Justin Prigel's recent decklist is a good stock list to start with. If you're on a bit of a budget you can definitely replace Horizon Canopy with Shefet Dunes and basic Plains without changing the feel of the deck. However, if you're on an extreme budget and can't afford some combination of Thalia/Path/Vial then it'll be very hard for us to give sound advice on a starter list.
Good luck and happy taxing.