I think the only real answer is to have Counterspell in Modern or some better counter. I just don't see that happening cause WoTC refuses to bring a card into Modern that hasn't passed through Standard first.
Many have said it, wotc dropped the ball for not having a revolt Counter variant. It's one of the most elegant mechanics for balancing a card in both standard and modern.
I think they could also just try reprinting counterspell in a standard set. Probably means blue card draw would take a hit, and color fixing might as well so you would have to commit toward monoblue to play it, and it would make it difficult to design other counterspells for a while, but it would hardly "break" standard, and they could let it rotate out and "reset" blue's counter levels after.
I don't think will get exactly Counterspell, but there are other ways of doing it than a Revolt card, too. I floated this one in one of the Modern Card Creation thread:
Contracharm UU
Instant (U)
Kicker: Discard a card
Counter target spell if its converted mana cost is 3 or less. If Contracharm was kicked, instead counter that spell.
I really like that one, I REALLY like that! A revolt counterspell or this would be equal to me, and if Wizards were to print this, I would stop yelling about actual Counterspell unless it becomes obvious that it isn't enough, but I think it would do wonders
I like it, but for some reason I think our WoTC overlords will make it UB. I think to guarantee it would be blue the kicker would have to be something like bouncing a permanent you control (which they probably will make a non-land card, but if they let it slip all the better). The other possible design would be to put the card on top of your library instead of discarding it, but that would be strictly worse than discarding most of the time without some kind of way to scry.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Blue is the laughing stock of all of modern mostly because the only strength it had was card fixing, counters, and bounce. Two of those got subsumed by other colors and the third wizards decided was a "horrific blight upon the senses" and has done it's best to screw the entire color over for five years. When Splinter Twin got banned that was the nail in the coffin outside of infect, and it's like a joke that a red card was the only thing propping up the entire color.
I just don't get it. First red stole timmy the Prodigal Sorcerer, and it's like ever since that point everyone is wanting a piece of that blue pie. I don't see blue stealing reds Lightning Bolt or taking blacks Thoughtseize. Just give blue a cmc 1 removal that bounces something to the bottom of the opponent's library for bouncing something you have in your hand to the top of your own library, and maybe give blue a 2 cmc spell that does something similar without the drawback. Maybe give it back Counterspell while they are at it.
I don't think we are asking for much here, we just want some darn basic FUNCTIONALITY! Blue's most functional creature is a blue 3 cmc fairy that nukes a card from the opponents hand. That is like if red's most functional card was a 3 cmc goblin with shock strapped to it. Not even Lightning Bolt, Shock. And he slaps you in the face with a wet fish and you take 1 damage because by the name of thor if we have another ETB creature without a down side we will enter the twilight zone in the Bermuda triangle and come out with a talking squirrel.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Unban Twin because it was NEVER broken. There, blue is playable again. If you don't unban Twin, unban Jace. Its worth a shot especially considering how weak blue is and basically has always been in this format, because Blue's #1 strength, permission, is so far behind everything else in the format. Good permission that can police an eternal format like Modern is never going to be printed in Standard, so let blue have some high powered tap-out options.
I played Standard during the reign of Jund, and honestly it was a lot like modern is currently. Mid range and aggro had been pushed as creature power had been ratcheted up, cheap and powerful removal was prevalent, mana fixing was plentiful, combo was viable but held in check, and permission sucked. Jace was either the only thing besides BSA making control decks reach Tier 2, just another good card in good stuff decks, a control/draw option in all in decks like Mythic Bant, and a role player in things like Next Level Bant. He was very powerful, but by no means broken. Only once Caw Blade hit did he become a real problem (before Caw Blade got brewed up, at the beginning of Zen-SOM block, the "best" blue deck was W/U tap-out control, with Valakut still reigning as the deck to beat). Caw Blade was a perfect storm of one standard deck having access to Legacy staples and other OP cards while the other decks didn't have nearly enough to answer it, and a load of cheap permission. In Modern, Jace would be a curve topper in the weakest color by far, with a paucity of permission capable of answering the relevant threats in the format. Could he make Jeskai and Grixis playable again? Yes. Would he make them OP. No. Would he make them Tier 1? Maybe, not even that is certain. Unlike a lot of other problem cards, you know what you are getting with Jace. He is what he is, and the only thing that could realistically be printed to make him stronger is better cheap permission, like at least Counterspell or unbanning Top for Countertop. He's not Birthing Pod, which will just keep getting broken in new and interesting ways every time a good ETB creature is printed, Or Eye of Ugin which would keep getting better with every low cost colorless Eldrazi printed.
The only way I wouldn't want to see Jace unbanned is if Twin got unbanned. Jace could push Twin decks over the edge into dominating the format rather than the balancing factor it was before it was unwisely banned. Personally, I prefer to see Twin unbanned than Jace, because I believe that Jace would mostly slot in to more tap out style strategies and maybe spawn some midrange blue decks (like Bant, BUG, or RUG), while Twin would immediately return a more permission style deck to the format that would restore balance to the force as it were.
Your post is illustrating the point I made about card design, though. If a cards design itself can provide it a growth factor in power going forward with more and better cards printed, is it really wise to unban it? The sacrifice is something people don't think about with unbanning a card. If they unban Jace, they have to sacrifice a design space in the future or risk having that card go out of control. If they unban twin, they will likewise have to sacrifice design space to make that card viable in modern for the near future. The difference between the two, though, is that they tried going further into the design space Twin occupied and couldn't really come up with a good replacement for it, so it's likely safe to unban it. Jace is a complete unknown. We only know how good he is in legacy at the moment and potentially commander, as he only saw play during standard much like Deathrite Shaman.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
real issue is half the people here/wotc/pros can't evaluate cards correctly. We have people all over the place already over in the voting thread. Wotc needs a team that actually looks at these treads tests things and gives feedback/discussion with the community. A collective group that just wants to give real feedback and not just a crazy opinion based on how people see games going in their heads.
Actually, banning cards is rather easy. Just ban every card that has the ability to keep getting better as more stuff is printed and you basically fix the format. There were just so many mechanics printed in the past where designers of the time just didn't account for the machinations of todays designs. Eye of Ugin was a ticking time bomb, fetchlands were seemingly harmless when printed since the only real contender of abuse was Tarmogoyf, but now we have Dredge, Delirium, Revolt, and all sorts of mechanics that take advantage of the free sacrifice outlet. Birthing Pod is an even better example of a card design that would break eventually as it let you toolbox out any creature with an ETB. Right now I think that Paradox Engine, Saheeli Rai, and Panharmonicon are going to be future issues along with potentially Aetherworks Marvel if players really start brewing with energy and another card like it is printed.
But that brings up the other point that it isn't always the right time to ban a card. Tarmo is getting close to the point of being ban worthy, but should we just ban every potentially game breaking card in standard from modern pre-emptively? And then the opposite direction of unbanning a card: Is it okay to unban a card because it isn't broken now, just to ban it later when an idiot designer makes a mistake card? What makes modern annoying to get into is that players buy into a very expensive set of cards and having a ban happen can rapidly devalue the cards unless they see eternal play.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Im really glad Wizards of the Coast just ignores this forum. Some people here think Mtg Salvation should just do the ban list but at the same time there is so much BS going on here I don´t even know where to start. There is no such thing as consensus and it seems like most peope are just speculating without any testing or they just want to play with their favourite toys without actually giving anything about the health of the format. It´s hilarious but this discussion cannot be taken serious at all. There is a reason bans and unbans are not allowed to be discussed in other forums.
So I will just lean back now and continue watching you argue like little kids.
Isn't that banlist discussion everywhere, including most articles discussing bans/unbans? I haven't seen a single article about Modern bans/unbans in the last 1-2 months with any shred of testing, evidence, or numbers to back up its claims. I'll also say the banlist polls here are very level-headed, even if some vocal users are less so in the threads.
I agree. Modern is fun right now and I trust in WotC to help out blue control a little bit so that everybody can stop circlejerking over their Snapcaster Mage , sleeve them up and just play the game, doing so having tested all the consequences thoroughly. No bans/unbans is fine as well.
Has modern gotten better, or is it just that it stayed close to the same while standard became objectively worse in every way? In general they are kind of like the younger brother and bigger brother that always argue. The bigger brother has more knowledge and generally sounds more intelligent so he stays consistent. The little brother ends up spouting non-sense most of the time, but sometimes ends up saying something everyone likes and then people flock to him.
Right now I think Big brother modern is giving little brother standard a big wedgy and hanging him out of the window. Not because modern has gotten insanely better, but because standard lit a firecracker and set the kitchen on fire... twice.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Im really glad Wizards of the Coast just ignores this forum. Some people here think Mtg Salvation should just do the ban list but at the same time there is so much BS going on here I don´t even know where to start. There is no such thing as consensus and it seems like most peope are just speculating without any testing or they just want to play with their favourite toys without actually giving anything about the health of the format. It´s hilarious but this discussion cannot be taken serious at all. There is a reason bans and unbans are not allowed to be discussed in other forums.
So I will just lean back now and continue watching you argue like little kids.
Isn't that banlist discussion everywhere, including most articles discussing bans/unbans? I haven't seen a single article about Modern bans/unbans in the last 1-2 months with any shred of testing, evidence, or numbers to back up its claims. I'll also say the banlist polls here are very level-headed, even if some vocal users are less so in the threads.
I usually just consider banlist discussions as a free thought forum. People will say intelligent things, stupid things, everything in between, and roll with the punches when something goes completely awry because they typed something and the internet never forgets. Case in point forgetting that it was Preordain and Ponder that were modern legal and not Brainstorm. That and not writing that statement out as intelligently as I would have liked. You win some you lose some, but at least some people got a punching bag to go after.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
In the kind of deck that runs Jace, yes I'm putting it on brainstorm level. The problem people are having with decent blue decks is enabling them to begin with. To do that you really don't want to unban an overpowered card as much as spread that power across multiple cards unless we want a repeat of dredge, where they unbanned Golgari Grave-Troll, then proceeded to print so many cards that support graveyard strategies the deck just went to crazy town.
I see what you're saying, but Brainstorm isn't banned. It's just hasn't been printed from 8th edition on. They COULD potentially reprint tin standard, but I doubt that. It's one of the best draw spells for a reason.
> Tap for a U
> Cast Brainstorm.
> Looks at hand. Grabs spells that he/she may need and return 2 potentially dead spells.
> Activates Fetch Land.
> Library has been manipulated.
Sensei's Divining Top was banned for that reason, no? Brainstorm would also give a lot of power to Delver of Secrets decks. Do you really want the meta to begin to look like Legacies? 3 Delver decks in betwixt tier 1 and 1.5? This is not meant to be taken in a condescending manner. Just silly replying to your post.
I'm unsure what blue may need, because I don't play the color, but it may be a tough call. They could unban Ponder or Preordain, but didn't those cards give Storm too much power?
Something I've noticed from wizards is that when they ban a card, it seems like they have some kind of card in the pipeline that is meant to act as a replacement. Saheeli Rai + Kiki Jiki Mirror Breaker seemed to be the vision of what WoTC expected would replace Twin, but that hasn't actually happened (except standard is now so broken it has been making some people go into complete rant mode, so can't say they didn't try? Not drawing any parallels here between modern and standard), so I imagine if they think they can fix blue, they wont unban something like Jace. If they don't think they can fix blue with printing something new, then they will look at the ban list and maybe try to unban something.
Huh? Unless I missed something.
Copy Cat was a mistake, they missed the interaction, like they owned up to it and said 'yeah we missed that in testing'. Pretty hard to say its a twin replacement when they dont know wtf they even had on hand. The copy mechanics are not even the same. Red has been making copy tokens for a long time, it doesnt mean they tried to replace Twin (they didnt) it just means Copy Creature into a temp token is in red's colour pie, which it clearly is.
They wanted to make something that could do a duplication effect, but wanted to create an effect that was more locked to a specific card. Felidar was a big mistake on their part, but Saheeli herself wasn't. Looking at Saheeli Rai they definitely drew inspiration from Splinter Twin and didn't want to make the same "mistake" they made with that card. The downside is that I think in the end they made a card that is too narrow.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
In the kind of deck that runs Jace, yes I'm putting it on brainstorm level. The problem people are having with decent blue decks is enabling them to begin with. To do that you really don't want to unban an overpowered card as much as spread that power across multiple cards unless we want a repeat of dredge, where they unbanned Golgari Grave-Troll, then proceeded to print so many cards that support graveyard strategies the deck just went to crazy town.
I see what you're saying, but Brainstorm isn't banned. It's just hasn't been printed from 8th edition on. They COULD potentially reprint tin standard, but I doubt that. It's one of the best draw spells for a reason.
> Tap for a U
> Cast Brainstorm.
> Looks at hand. Grabs spells that he/she may need and return 2 potentially dead spells.
> Activates Fetch Land.
> Library has been manipulated.
Sensei's Divining Top was banned for that reason, no? Brainstorm would also give a lot of power to Delver of Secrets decks. Do you really want the meta to begin to look like Legacies? 3 Delver decks in betwixt tier 1 and 1.5? This is not meant to be taken in a condescending manner. Just silly replying to your post.
I'm unsure what blue may need, because I don't play the color, but it may be a tough call. They could unban Ponder or Preordain, but didn't those cards give Storm too much power?
Something I've noticed from wizards is that when they ban a card, it seems like they have some kind of card in the pipeline that is meant to act as a replacement. Saheeli Rai + Kiki Jiki Mirror Breaker seemed to be the vision of what WoTC expected would replace Twin, but that hasn't actually happened (except standard is now so broken it has been making some people go into complete rant mode, so can't say they didn't try? Not drawing any parallels here between modern and standard), so I imagine if they think they can fix blue, they wont unban something like Jace. If they don't think they can fix blue with printing something new, then they will look at the ban list and maybe try to unban something.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
And how many Blue planeswalkers see any real Modern play? Zero, and it's been like that since the start of the format. In the past, there were some points when you'd see Vryn's Prodigy or Architect of Thought, but even those didn't see strong play even at the height of their popularity. The best Blue planeswalker right now, Nahiri, isn't even Blue! (and by the way, Nahiri isn't doing all that hot right now either)
It doesn't matter if Jace sets an "impossibly high bar" for Blue planeswalkers when the bar is already apparently impossibly high considering the extremely low amount of play they see.
That's not exactly true. Blue walkers to see play in modern, but the decks are generally not super popular strategies. UW control usually runs Tamiyo, the Moon Sage and Jace, Architect of Thought as one ofs, and I could easily see Jace, the Mind Sculptor slotting into that archetype over the older jace. The trouble is the second ability of Jace would require them to also unban Brainstorm as they are essentially the same thing.
Yes, a 1 mana instant Brainstorm and 4 mana sorcery speed Brainstorm are exactly the same thing!
Not even that so much as hearing the words "unban Brainstorm" in sequence.
In the kind of deck that runs Jace, yes I'm putting it on brainstorm level. The problem people are having with decent blue decks is enabling them to begin with. To do that you really don't want to unban an overpowered card as much as spread that power across multiple cards unless we want a repeat of dredge, where they unbanned Golgari Grave-Troll, then proceeded to print so many cards that support graveyard strategies the deck just went to crazy town.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The trouble is the second ability of Jace would require them to also unban Brainstorm as they are essentially the same thing.
Brainstorm can be done as quickly as turn 1 at instant speed, serving multiple roles such as EOT Delver flipping, Miracle guarantees, and Counterbalance fixing. Jace is great, but Brainstorm is infinitely more valuable.
Which begs the question that if someone wants to strengthen blue, why in the world would you pick Jace over Brainstorm? Modern is a turn 4 quick draw format so this starts turning into arguing for using a knife in a shooting range. We know slow cards aren't going to work in Modern as out of the two that really made it from the last unbanning, Ancestral vision was the winner over Sword of the Meek. This is basically the same scenario: Super powerful but turn 4 durdly Jace, or turn 1 useful instant speed hand fixing that will find a home in a ton of decks and is available for relatively cheap. We can all argue until we are blue in the face about if it will be too much for modern, but there is no denying which one will actually have a guaranteed impact.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I'm not adamantly opposed to Jace, but I feel he is bad news for diversity. I believe Jordan made the point that he would set a very high (impossibly high IMO) bar for blue planeswalkers to enter modern
And how many Blue planeswalkers see any real Modern play? Zero, and it's been like that since the start of the format. In the past, there were some points when you'd see Vryn's Prodigy or Architect of Thought, but even those didn't see strong play even at the height of their popularity. The best Blue planeswalker right now, Nahiri, isn't even Blue! (and by the way, Nahiri isn't doing all that hot right now either)
It doesn't matter if Jace sets an "impossibly high bar" for Blue planeswalkers when the bar is already apparently impossibly high considering the extremely low amount of play they see.
That's not exactly true. Blue walkers to see play in modern, but the decks are generally not super popular strategies. UW control usually runs Tamiyo, the Moon Sage and Jace, Architect of Thought as one ofs, and I could easily see Jace, the Mind Sculptor slotting into that archetype over the older jace. The trouble is the second ability of Jace would require them to also unban Brainstorm as they are essentially the same thing.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Thinking on this, what I'd really like to see are more fair decks in modern. Jund is basically the only fair deck outside of possibly merfolk (pending definition of fair) and trying to create a control deck in modern given the sheer power level the format holds may require designing something that likely will be game breaking down the road. People are saying modern needs stronger answers, but what I'm afraid of is wizards printing an answer that is functionally the tarmogoyf of answers. It's okay at first, but as more sets and mechanics get released it becomes stronger and stronger, until it literally is the answer that every deck, let alone control decks, ends up playing if it's in the right colors. What form that answer takes can be anybody's guess, but it would have to be a scalable mechanic that gets underestimated.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Thanks for the links Colt. Some interesting thoughts, but it's not like there is one school of thought for game design, and in fact Modern probably craps all over several rules or theories, same as Legacy, same as Overwatch, same as Quake 3.
Let's not forget that Standard is the result of probably hundreds of surveys, dozens of focus groups, and collectively decades of MTG experience, and it's falling on its face.
Go to ANY popular game forum and do some market research, the signal to noise ratio is hilarious.
There comes a point where designing for the masses fails, and forgetting the spikes is often high on the list of first mistakes.
For the most part you aren't wrong on different thoughts on game design. In general, this is referring to things involving the building of the games themselves such as wedge design vs layer design (The japanese did layer early on while most western developers did wedge), Story driven development vs Mechanic driven development, etc. The original MtG game was mechanics driven and developed as a way for D&D players to get a quick fix, but as time went along the game expanded into it's own entity that overtook D&D in popularity. Without looking too deeply and just going by the set designs I'd say the philosophy started changing around Urza's Saga to more story driven design. Maro would probably know more about the goings ons and I'm sure that guy would have tons of input on that subject.
The thing is I can't really say one way or another modern is a designed format. Developers can design individual cards to fit moderns power curve, but that isn't the same as saying "we want specific lines of play to work along the following turn sequence" and then put together the plays that you'd expect to have on that sequence line. If you looked at the most recent video from Extra Credits they talk about "de-gamification". Modern is exactly what they describe in that video. It's like Skyrim with mod support, where players can completely ignore the leveling curve or bypass limits placed by the original game designers. People can go stuff a burn deck with basically 12 copies of Lightning bolt, and in legacy people actually stuff burn with 16 copies of lightning bolt, or someone can go run a merfolk deck with so many fish lords you'd be wondering if they have a legislature in the Marianas Trench.
As far as modern crapping over several design theories or what not, that entirely depends on what wizards has in their design docs as "rules and theories" . It definitely craps over their stuff for standard given what we've been seeing lately.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Now you are an expert on E-Sport development and game design to the point of telling us what Wizard intends Colt?
I remain, unconvinced.
I've been gaming for decades, and I played with and against the founding members of many of the E-Sports teams people may recognize if they play FPS games. Your analysis or thoughts on what Wizards wants to do, or is doing, to push E-Sports, is...questionable. I've also competed at a high level and found success in Sports, Table Top games, Magic, MMO's (server first raid guilds and so on) and FPS games.
The common thread between all of that and E-Sports?
E-Sports are successful, when players feel they could do it too, when they feel they could be part of it, OR when they have something to cheer for.
Nobody is going to get attached to Copy-Cat, to cheer for it to win, and tune in when its doing well, because it ROTATES.
On the flip side, people do get attached to Jund, or Storm, or Affinity, or Burn, and cheer for it (or if we are honest worry about it winning!) and tune in when its doing well BECAUSE ITS THEIR DECK TOO.
I dont cheer for Sam Black, but if Sam Black was on Twin, I would hope for him to win. Am I alone in that?
On the other hand Colt, you continue to parrot sound bites from pro's 'Oh its the variance of hoser cards' as if those statements hold validity in and of themselves. They do not.
Here are some true facts.
Standard is down. This is known. This is admitted to by Wizards staff on Twitter and in their articles, and they have a pretty good idea of why at this point.
Modern is not down. This is known. This is admitted to by Wizards staff on Twitter, Tumblr (Blogatog) and in their articles, as well as several articles from Pro's THIS WEEK ALONE. And you know what? All parties have a pretty good idea why.
Maro even posted why they are not 'pushing' Modern, because it doesnt need the help! Know what does? STANDARD.
So yeah they are going to cut back on Modern. Let SCG hold events, hold a few GP's, and let their partner Twitch showcase a varied and entertaining format for the game we enjoy. Will it last forever? Maybe not, few things do. Quake 3 was the greatest competitive FPS that existed (true facts), but players move on and with them, sponsors.
E-Sports require adoption by the public, to succeed. Magic is going to struggle because its trying to push a paper based product into the digital space that E-Sports commands, but if Wizards looks at the numbers, and does some critical thinking, well I dont worry about Modern.
Um, IdSurge? What has gotten under your skin so much here to go into rant mode? You just finger waggled me on not knowing anything about e-sports game design and then showed that you understand basically nothing about it (if you want to learn about it I can try to get you pointed in the right direction, but there are some "challenges" with that one), then went on to talk about standard being down which we all know, and then went on to talk about modern, which I stated isn't down and is doing fine, then agreed with me that they aren't pushing modern because they need to help standard...
I'm a software engineer who delved into game design as well as graphic design and advertising, so yes I do know about game development and the trials of creating a game suitable to being an e-sport. Why do I not work in the game industry? Because for one that industry has bad job security, a not so insignificant number of the jobs are located on the west coast of the US with high living costs, and it's nowhere near as glamorous as some people like to envision. (I also made a game as well, but let's just say much like most who make their first game, it's not exactly something you proudly put out there on steam greenlight).
As for concepts like "gamification", asymmetric balancing, etc, check out the Extra Credits crew on YouTube. They do a great job of breaking things down for the average guy on the net and can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCODtTcd5M1JavPCOr_Uydg
Actually, if you want to see some good videos that go over problems that modern has in specific, these two videos are a good place to start. Not exactly related to what we were talking about with e-sports, but its a good watch for those who play tcgs in general:
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Not disagreeing on all the doomsaying. I may talk of moderns downsides a lot and the potential upsets a new non-rotating format will bring, but modern itself isn't going to go anywhere. If we really are heading into the age of mega reprints we may not even need something like frontier, as that format was a reaction to the lack of card supply in Japan and Asia. What will help the format a lot is if they can get the most played cards low enough to reprint in commander. If that happens they have more than one way to get older cards into regions outside of the US.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I like it, but for some reason I think our WoTC overlords will make it UB.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I just don't get it. First red stole timmy the Prodigal Sorcerer, and it's like ever since that point everyone is wanting a piece of that blue pie. I don't see blue stealing reds Lightning Bolt or taking blacks Thoughtseize. Just give blue a cmc 1 removal that bounces something to the bottom of the opponent's library for bouncing something you have in your hand to the top of your own library, and maybe give blue a 2 cmc spell that does something similar without the drawback. Maybe give it back Counterspell while they are at it.
I don't think we are asking for much here, we just want some darn basic FUNCTIONALITY! Blue's most functional creature is a blue 3 cmc fairy that nukes a card from the opponents hand. That is like if red's most functional card was a 3 cmc goblin with shock strapped to it. Not even Lightning Bolt, Shock. And he slaps you in the face with a wet fish and you take 1 damage because by the name of thor if we have another ETB creature without a down side we will enter the twilight zone in the Bermuda triangle and come out with a talking squirrel.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Your post is illustrating the point I made about card design, though. If a cards design itself can provide it a growth factor in power going forward with more and better cards printed, is it really wise to unban it? The sacrifice is something people don't think about with unbanning a card. If they unban Jace, they have to sacrifice a design space in the future or risk having that card go out of control. If they unban twin, they will likewise have to sacrifice design space to make that card viable in modern for the near future. The difference between the two, though, is that they tried going further into the design space Twin occupied and couldn't really come up with a good replacement for it, so it's likely safe to unban it. Jace is a complete unknown. We only know how good he is in legacy at the moment and potentially commander, as he only saw play during standard much like Deathrite Shaman.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Actually, banning cards is rather easy. Just ban every card that has the ability to keep getting better as more stuff is printed and you basically fix the format. There were just so many mechanics printed in the past where designers of the time just didn't account for the machinations of todays designs. Eye of Ugin was a ticking time bomb, fetchlands were seemingly harmless when printed since the only real contender of abuse was Tarmogoyf, but now we have Dredge, Delirium, Revolt, and all sorts of mechanics that take advantage of the free sacrifice outlet. Birthing Pod is an even better example of a card design that would break eventually as it let you toolbox out any creature with an ETB. Right now I think that Paradox Engine, Saheeli Rai, and Panharmonicon are going to be future issues along with potentially Aetherworks Marvel if players really start brewing with energy and another card like it is printed.
But that brings up the other point that it isn't always the right time to ban a card. Tarmo is getting close to the point of being ban worthy, but should we just ban every potentially game breaking card in standard from modern pre-emptively? And then the opposite direction of unbanning a card: Is it okay to unban a card because it isn't broken now, just to ban it later when an idiot designer makes a mistake card? What makes modern annoying to get into is that players buy into a very expensive set of cards and having a ban happen can rapidly devalue the cards unless they see eternal play.
So what do we do? Unban Jace, The Mind Sculptor, Stoneforge Mystic, and Splinter Twin because they aren't broken right now and then ban them later like Golgari Grave-troll? Does anyone want to deal with that?
And before anyone wants to laugh off Saheeli Rai or Aetherworks Marvel, may I remind you that Through the Breach and Summer bloom were both viewed exactly the same way. Look where those ended up. Well, that and Death's Shadow.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Has modern gotten better, or is it just that it stayed close to the same while standard became objectively worse in every way? In general they are kind of like the younger brother and bigger brother that always argue. The bigger brother has more knowledge and generally sounds more intelligent so he stays consistent. The little brother ends up spouting non-sense most of the time, but sometimes ends up saying something everyone likes and then people flock to him.
Right now I think Big brother modern is giving little brother standard a big wedgy and hanging him out of the window. Not because modern has gotten insanely better, but because standard lit a firecracker and set the kitchen on fire... twice.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I usually just consider banlist discussions as a free thought forum. People will say intelligent things, stupid things, everything in between, and roll with the punches when something goes completely awry because they typed something and the internet never forgets. Case in point forgetting that it was Preordain and Ponder that were modern legal and not Brainstorm. That and not writing that statement out as intelligently as I would have liked. You win some you lose some, but at least some people got a punching bag to go after.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
They wanted to make something that could do a duplication effect, but wanted to create an effect that was more locked to a specific card. Felidar was a big mistake on their part, but Saheeli herself wasn't. Looking at Saheeli Rai they definitely drew inspiration from Splinter Twin and didn't want to make the same "mistake" they made with that card. The downside is that I think in the end they made a card that is too narrow.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Something I've noticed from wizards is that when they ban a card, it seems like they have some kind of card in the pipeline that is meant to act as a replacement. Saheeli Rai + Kiki Jiki Mirror Breaker seemed to be the vision of what WoTC expected would replace Twin, but that hasn't actually happened (except standard is now so broken it has been making some people go into complete rant mode, so can't say they didn't try?
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
In the kind of deck that runs Jace, yes I'm putting it on brainstorm level. The problem people are having with decent blue decks is enabling them to begin with. To do that you really don't want to unban an overpowered card as much as spread that power across multiple cards unless we want a repeat of dredge, where they unbanned Golgari Grave-Troll, then proceeded to print so many cards that support graveyard strategies the deck just went to crazy town.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Which begs the question that if someone wants to strengthen blue, why in the world would you pick Jace over Brainstorm? Modern is a turn 4 quick draw format so this starts turning into arguing for using a knife in a shooting range. We know slow cards aren't going to work in Modern as out of the two that really made it from the last unbanning, Ancestral vision was the winner over Sword of the Meek. This is basically the same scenario: Super powerful but turn 4 durdly Jace, or turn 1 useful instant speed hand fixing that will find a home in a ton of decks and is available for relatively cheap. We can all argue until we are blue in the face about if it will be too much for modern, but there is no denying which one will actually have a guaranteed impact.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
That's not exactly true. Blue walkers to see play in modern, but the decks are generally not super popular strategies. UW control usually runs Tamiyo, the Moon Sage and Jace, Architect of Thought as one ofs, and I could easily see Jace, the Mind Sculptor slotting into that archetype over the older jace. The trouble is the second ability of Jace would require them to also unban Brainstorm as they are essentially the same thing.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
For the most part you aren't wrong on different thoughts on game design. In general, this is referring to things involving the building of the games themselves such as wedge design vs layer design (The japanese did layer early on while most western developers did wedge), Story driven development vs Mechanic driven development, etc. The original MtG game was mechanics driven and developed as a way for D&D players to get a quick fix, but as time went along the game expanded into it's own entity that overtook D&D in popularity. Without looking too deeply and just going by the set designs I'd say the philosophy started changing around Urza's Saga to more story driven design. Maro would probably know more about the goings ons and I'm sure that guy would have tons of input on that subject.
The thing is I can't really say one way or another modern is a designed format. Developers can design individual cards to fit moderns power curve, but that isn't the same as saying "we want specific lines of play to work along the following turn sequence" and then put together the plays that you'd expect to have on that sequence line. If you looked at the most recent video from Extra Credits they talk about "de-gamification". Modern is exactly what they describe in that video. It's like Skyrim with mod support, where players can completely ignore the leveling curve or bypass limits placed by the original game designers. People can go stuff a burn deck with basically 12 copies of Lightning bolt, and in legacy people actually stuff burn with 16 copies of lightning bolt, or someone can go run a merfolk deck with so many fish lords you'd be wondering if they have a legislature in the Marianas Trench.
As far as modern crapping over several design theories or what not, that entirely depends on what wizards has in their design docs as "rules and theories"
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Um, IdSurge? What has gotten under your skin so much here to go into rant mode? You just finger waggled me on not knowing anything about e-sports game design and then showed that you understand basically nothing about it (if you want to learn about it I can try to get you pointed in the right direction, but there are some "challenges" with that one), then went on to talk about standard being down which we all know, and then went on to talk about modern, which I stated isn't down and is doing fine, then agreed with me that they aren't pushing modern because they need to help standard...
I'm a software engineer who delved into game design as well as graphic design and advertising, so yes I do know about game development and the trials of creating a game suitable to being an e-sport. Why do I not work in the game industry? Because for one that industry has bad job security, a not so insignificant number of the jobs are located on the west coast of the US with high living costs, and it's nowhere near as glamorous as some people like to envision. (I also made a game as well, but let's just say much like most who make their first game, it's not exactly something you proudly put out there on steam greenlight).
As for concepts like "gamification", asymmetric balancing, etc, check out the Extra Credits crew on YouTube. They do a great job of breaking things down for the average guy on the net and can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCODtTcd5M1JavPCOr_Uydg
Actually, if you want to see some good videos that go over problems that modern has in specific, these two videos are a good place to start. Not exactly related to what we were talking about with e-sports, but its a good watch for those who play tcgs in general:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZnjwdStzUc&list=PLhyKYa0YJ_5BkTruCmaBBZ8z6cP9KzPiX&index=52
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3b3hDvRjJA
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!