Hi. I haven't posted for a while. Did we decide yet if the vial version or coco is better? I feel with all the midrange decks (mardu)..and Jace coming up that coco might be the better choice. Opinions?
I played Vial Humans in recent tournaments and I wasn't happy because I had little choices in a lot of matchups and naming with Meddling Mage was usually a coin-flip that I have lost.
Collins Mullins took down my local regionals. I pilotted the same list to a 5-3:( for 67th. Drew horribly and bad match ups all day. A lot of abzan affinity mill jank.
Is Xathrid Necromancer really that much better than Sin Collector in the Vial list? Sin Collector can pick out all of the same wraths except O-Stone, doesn't have the same weakness to Anger of the Gods, and has more utility in some other matchups like Burn.
I also keep Living End in mind when comparing those 2 cards (they often have more cascade spells than we have disruption). I also think of ConflagrateDredge can cast from the graveyard.
Then you have the races vs other aggros (including the mirror and eldrazis with Ballista) where you can push through damage, keeping critical mass even after unfavorable trades.
Finally, UWx control and Lantern have ways to let you strip their hand on their draw step, then play Serum Visions, Ancient Stirrings, activate milling artifacts and so on to dig for the wrath main phase.
Against Burn it's cool to have a body after they kill your Necromancer with Searing Blaze. Not great but it's better for combat purposes than Collector, which is better for noncreature spells. Not easy to figure which is better in such a MU.
I think Collector shines because it doesn't care about a 1-2 removal on it ->> Wrath, while Necromancer falls short to that combination. Collector shines more in other combo MUs like Valakut, Ad Naus and Storm, so while they overlap in the "wrath" MUs, they also have seperate applications elsewhere.
So the question is do we need other disruption cards while we already have Med + FreeB ? Necro looks like Canonist in a way, it's a card that attacks the opponent on a complementary angle. I don't know, both cards are ok.
I actually think that Necromancer is a trap and Sin Collector might be indeed better. UW Control is a much less common archetype compared to decks that run Anger of the Gods and Sheltering Sun. Even against Jeskai it will probably just eat a spot removal for one token.
I have looked at all modern-playable humans. The actual list already plays the most efficient ones.
Open questions to me are:
- 1 Abzan Falconer for 1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar in the main?
- Kambal vs. Ethersworn Canonist in the side. Is the one turn earlier so important compared to the additional application against Burn of Kambal. Or the additional application of Canonist against Elves? I think we already have a quite good Storm matchup without Canonist, so I am not sure if the 1CC difference is that important. What do you think?
- Dark Confidant vs. Tireless Tracker side
- Do we need Mirran Crusader in the side? I think that our matchup against Death's Shadow and BX decks is already favorable.
@kingcars: thank you for your great wrap-up of both decks.
I think we can reliably play 5c with Coco and Mantis Rider. I have tested it in about 100 Games yet and I never had mana problems. That is also why I prefer Tireless Tracker in a creature mirror, because it can overcome stalls just by the pure card advantage. I am however testing both Tracker and Thalia.
I think the main advantage of the vial version is the one-sided Thalia V1.0 and the Xanthrid Necromancer. Especially the Thalia is making me want to play the vial version at the moment.
I tested the vial build today..but only against burn.
The matchup is close but even without sideboard I won 80% of games (only 10 games however). It felt much much better than the coco version.
Vialing in Lords is amazing in regards to combat tricks. To be fair, I had vial in every game t1...so I can see that the deck gets much worse if you don't have it. I felt as if I was topdecking less lands than I usually do in the Coco build, however, I have not tested the new CoCo build with 7 Fetches yet.
Haven't seen anyone mention why the vial list may have an advantage over the coco list (although I may have missed something. Apologies if I did)
- Allows you to run a lower land count
- Allows you to run a less painful manabase
- Allows you to run more rainbow lands (which can't cast coco)
- More threat-dense deck overall (so better quality of topdeck)
- Lower curve in general because you aren't over-focusing on three-drops for max value.
- Vial allows 'casting' multiple creatures a turn even when stuck on two lands.
- Less reliant on noble hierarch/mana dorks in general to make plays
- More ability to force threats through counters
- More ability to make tricky combat plays (although coco definitely allows this, you are required to hit 4 mana first which can sometimes be too late or too tricky)
Obviously coco is a powerhouse and a proven card in modern. It doesn't really need anyone backing its corner because it's an amazing tool, but I have to say. Taking a leaf out of merfolk's book could really stand up for this deck. After all, this is a fish deck.
Ok so I watched the top 8. VS D&T obviously he lost G1 because his maindeck isn't prepared for creature MUs anyway. VS Merfolk same conclusion. Thing is he keeps the Freebooters, which is a pretty bad choice, so if we consider the Merfolk player played poorly and Collins sided poorly (and mulliganed more), I'm not sure we can decide which player deserved the win anyway. G3 was not a relevant example of how the MU should go.
He can easily do -1 Thalia V1 / + 1 Ref Mage in his maindeck.
I thought it was a mistake to keep in Freebooter. I play that matchup a lot and it is very rare that you are actually able to hit something. Path to Exile however is very important in the Merfolk matchup. I think the main advantage of the vial list is that we can run 4 Thalia V1.0, 4 Freebooter and 4 Meddling Mages and that this improves our bad to mediocre matchups: Burn, Storm, Valakut. It takes a lot of speed imo. However, more people have sideboard hate against CoCo (because of Counters Company) then against Aether Vials. Therefore it might actually be the prefered build. A bit less explosive though
I also know this semifinal opponent and friend, Jeremy on UG Merfolk.
I think Jeremy could have won. He messed up the attacks by attacking with Lord of Atlantis and Merrew Rejewery. I think a build without Path to Exile has big troubles against Lords and Master of Waves. He has Fiend Hunter to compensate a bit for that, but I don't know if this is enough. I am also very surprised that he was able to win against Elves without CoCo and Path.
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So I went back to the CoCo version.
Now this article came out:
https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/the-road-to-finding-the-best-humans-list-in-modern/
Thoughts?
I actually think that Necromancer is a trap and Sin Collector might be indeed better. UW Control is a much less common archetype compared to decks that run Anger of the Gods and Sheltering Sun. Even against Jeskai it will probably just eat a spot removal for one token.
I have looked at all modern-playable humans. The actual list already plays the most efficient ones.
Open questions to me are:
- 1 Abzan Falconer for 1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar in the main?
- Kambal vs. Ethersworn Canonist in the side. Is the one turn earlier so important compared to the additional application against Burn of Kambal. Or the additional application of Canonist against Elves? I think we already have a quite good Storm matchup without Canonist, so I am not sure if the 1CC difference is that important. What do you think?
- Dark Confidant vs. Tireless Tracker side
- Do we need Mirran Crusader in the side? I think that our matchup against Death's Shadow and BX decks is already favorable.
4 Cavern,
4 Unclaimed Territory,
4 Windswept Heath,
1 Verdant Catacombs,
1 Forest,
1 Plains,
1 Hallowed Fountain,
1 Godless Shrine,
1 Overgrown Tomb,
1 Breeding Pool,
1 Stomping Ground,
1 Temple Garden
However, I often felt that I drew too many lands.
So I will try:
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Unclaimed Territory
4 Windswepth Heath
3 Arid Mesa
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain or Breeding Pool
I think we can reliably play 5c with Coco and Mantis Rider. I have tested it in about 100 Games yet and I never had mana problems. That is also why I prefer Tireless Tracker in a creature mirror, because it can overcome stalls just by the pure card advantage. I am however testing both Tracker and Thalia.
I think the main advantage of the vial version is the one-sided Thalia V1.0 and the Xanthrid Necromancer. Especially the Thalia is making me want to play the vial version at the moment.
Lol
The matchup is close but even without sideboard I won 80% of games (only 10 games however). It felt much much better than the coco version.
Vialing in Lords is amazing in regards to combat tricks. To be fair, I had vial in every game t1...so I can see that the deck gets much worse if you don't have it. I felt as if I was topdecking less lands than I usually do in the Coco build, however, I have not tested the new CoCo build with 7 Fetches yet.
Another advantage is that we can run Thalia, Guardian of Thraben without hurting ourselves.
I thought it was a mistake to keep in Freebooter. I play that matchup a lot and it is very rare that you are actually able to hit something. Path to Exile however is very important in the Merfolk matchup. I think the main advantage of the vial list is that we can run 4 Thalia V1.0, 4 Freebooter and 4 Meddling Mages and that this improves our bad to mediocre matchups: Burn, Storm, Valakut. It takes a lot of speed imo. However, more people have sideboard hate against CoCo (because of Counters Company) then against Aether Vials. Therefore it might actually be the prefered build. A bit less explosive though
I think Jeremy could have won. He messed up the attacks by attacking with Lord of Atlantis and Merrew Rejewery. I think a build without Path to Exile has big troubles against Lords and Master of Waves. He has Fiend Hunter to compensate a bit for that, but I don't know if this is enough. I am also very surprised that he was able to win against Elves without CoCo and Path.