The Jund Master's latest list. Nice to see Reid pilot Jund again.
Yes indeed! Lets hope he recorded his tournament, would be interesting to hear about some card choises.
Why 2 x Chandra, when based on his sideboard he was expecting lots of affinity?
Why 2 x Leyline of the Void? Against what matchup are you willing to mulligan hard to find one of those anyways?
Zero board sweepers feels also risky to me, but I guess he was planning to stop Collected Company with Cages.
Chandra can act as removal as well. As a result even against the hyper aggro decks it is a far better top deck then say an inquisition or thoughtseize.
Yes it's not the most ideal card vs affinity, but the -3 makes it considerably more useful than Liliana (in the specific matchup of Affinity).
plus if it sticks around - you will be winning that game.
Leyline seems an odd inclusion, especially with the decline of Dredge. Of course you could also use it vs storm and coco combo decks... so depending on the meta maybe it's worth it.
Really? Against what decks? How much testing have you done? Can you break it down against different archetypes?
90% (another number you've pulled from air it seems) of a crappy sample size is a good way to spread misinformation. I'm just asking you to prove your own statements or at least provide more than personal sentiment. IIRC, you personally tried it for one night?
Btw, it's not just you. I am skeptical of a lot that's been put on this particular subforum for about the last ten pages. There's a boat load of theorycrafting and personal sentiment.
FYI: the 90% number was theoretical and arbitrary (not actual). I wasn't saying that 90% of the games WHERE that way.
So far that appears to be the case... but thats only out of a couple dozen games (which is not enough).
My apologizes if my statement was confusing.
I personally have about a dozen games on free programs testing against myself (plus the posts here).
To play devil's advocate (Against myself) maybe we do need a win more card?
Arguably our worst matchups (tron, Eldrazi Tron) only get worse the longer the game goes on.... maybe we need a win-more card to close out the game quickly.
Technically it is. Yes the sample size is not large enough to actually come to a 100% conclusion (hence why I keep asking for other examples)
but it IS statistics and actual game play.
Statistics are numbers. Game results ARE numbers. If 90% of the games where hazorate is good you're already ahead... there is a good chance it's a card that is only good when you are ahead.
I am not blathering on. I am simply responding to someone who was responding to my argument. Would never have brought it up again if someone didn't directly reference my argument. Additionally - the 6 pages I reference to are NOT my own comments, but people posting specific examples of how the God was good. In every case (that I read) they were already ahead. Hence my comment.
Also - can we not keep this topic constructive? Your post literally has nothing to do with either keeping things on topic or Jund.
It serves zero purpose.
Hazorate is a great closer if you are already ahead... but based on my own play testing (and other testimonies here) it doesn't do alot if you are behind.
Well, there's no also enough proof that Hazoret is just a win more card and you said that it was mediocre.
And just losing few games with the build will not conclude that the card was bad. Better test it with more games. Do not base it on those games because that's not enough proof.
It is not a win more card. Hazoret breaks a stalled board when slammed. Great against Grixis and Eldrazi decks. If you are losing on board with Smashers then slammed a Hazoret, would you feel better than slamming a different 4-drop?
On the Blood Moon discussion, that is your preference. I personally split 2 Blood Moons and 2 Fulminator Mages on my SB for variance. I know how to play around with my own Blood Moon. And that does not screw my mana base a lot. I cripple a little, but my Eldrazi/Tron opponent will suffer a lot. Abzan also, if they can't play around against it.
You are correct... 6 pages of Hazoret the Fervent being a win-more card is not proof. Why care about statistics anyways?
There is not a single example in the last 6 pages of Hazoret breaking a stalled board state or winning a game from behind. Not one.
I keep asking for such an example... and I keep getting criticized for that question.
Also, if you are facing down a board of smashers that you have not dealt with... that can only mean two things. Either you have drawn all lands OR you have dead cards in hand (Fatal Pushes, Ancient Grudges with no targets, etc.) If you are drawing only lands or only dead cards... very unlikely that you'd actually be able to turn on Hazorate. So yes... in that case I would prefer a card like Huntsmaster to buy me extra turns to find a damnation. Because at that point Damnation is the only way you are winning that game.
EDIT: That being said... if you want a "closer" there is no better card than Hazoret the Fervent.
Guys what do you thing about hazoret(the new red god) in the main deck ? Or chandra torch of defense? And what about playing grove of the burnwillows against death's shadow decks? For now i am playing 2 raging ravines and 3 groves, i am thinking about 3 raging ravnes and 2 groves (i am playing witthout stomping ground,to mutch rg sources, so i play with 2 blood cryptic and 1 overgrown tomb). And i will try 1 chandra and 1 hazoret in as drop 4, what do you guys thing about that changes? Should i play with 3 raging ravnes? Not worth it to play with groves?
I really really like Chandra. She's been amazing for me in nearly every single matchup.
The thing I like about fuminator is paired with surgical extraction it can make it nearly impossible for Tron to win (while they can still win vs blood moon).
It is far from an autowin if you mean that. It is strong, sure, but actually the same like Blood Moon if they can't remove it. Eventually they will hit 7 lands and slam a Karn or Wurmcoil on 6. If you don't have a fast clock combined with fulminator+surgical, it won't do anything. The only downside of Blood Moon is that it can be removed and Tron can get back online in such a case, but otherwise its not far worse than Fulminator+Surgical. And to note, you need two cards in order to pull the combo off, not only 1.
That being said, I am right now also off the BM train, and running Fulminators, but not because I like them so much, only because we have to and its the best thing we have available. Its definitely not impossible to win for tron after Fulminator+Surgical if you ask me.
No. I mean fuminator mage is harder to play around as it requires drawing either an additional tron piece or a karn to reset the game.
Against blood moon they can draw karn, Ugin, Nature's Claim (post board) or oblivion stone (only the claim is not a main decked card).
EDIT: what I was trying to say "poorly" is Tron has far more outs vs a blood moon than a fuminator mage + surgical extraction. Jund typically has a fast enough clock and enough creatures post board where a turn 7 karn isn't all that scary.
Plus you often leave in thought-seizes against Tron as well.
Round One: Blue Moon 2-1
Game 1 he has everything (counters, removal, and spreading seas). I keep a hand with 3 bobs, goyf, ooze, and lands. I play the goyf and ooze first (to draw out counter magic and spells). Despite that... he still is able to keep all three bobs from hitting the table. In addition he plays 3 spreading seas this game... I loose steam.
Game 2 & 3 - I draw discard heavy hands and am able to play around his disruption.
Round Two: Cheroies 2-0
Discard + removal game 1 makes it an easy win. He mulls to 5 game 2.
Round Three: Bant Eldrazi 0-2
Game 1 he turn 3 TKS taking my only relevent removal spell (liliana). I never draw anything else relevant and quickly loose.
Game 2 I misplay. I play Liliana knowing he has a reality smasher in hand (should have held on to it).
Round Four: Illusions 2-0
Super easy matchup. Damnation won me game 2.
I would like to discuss the landbase:
4 Blackcleave of 2 Blackcleave 2 Blooming Marsh?
My preference goes to the split. I am testing it right now.
How does all fair with the 1-off 5 drop in the main? I am stil on FlyingDelver' list. Stil on 24 land. Going to test next week some specific matchups.
Anyone any tips on a board?
The first cards I include are 3 Blood Moon. I always liked the free wins and the fear of the opponents heen they have seen one. Next to that I never liked played Fullies in Jund. Thoughts?
As far as the fastlands are concerned, I think it boils down to whether or not you are playing Lightning Bolt and how many, if you are playing it. When I tried out a boltless list with four Fatal Push I went to the 2/2 split and it seemed fine. I would probably say that if you are on at least three Bolts, it would be better to have that T1 pain-free land that can work with discard, Bolt, and Push and I'd go with a minimum of 3 Cliffs.
Serious Axman, you keep repeating your opinion man.. this guy gives his review and you put it in the ground.
I am not knocking his review at all... just stating that based on the description he was already winning at that point in time.
Hazorat did not "win him the game". It allowed him to close the game, sure. But based on the exact game descriptions written above... he was already winning (and most likely would have won even if Hazorat has been a different card).
Should we not take that into consideration when evaluating cards?
My statement that he was already winning was not an opinion. It was a derived fact based on the description of the game state.
Serious Axman, you keep repeating your opinion man.. this guy gives his review and you put it in the ground.
It's easier to ignore the guy - he played a Hazoret build for 2 games, lost both, dropped, and based his opinion on that. The other week he was insistent on how Tron isn't such a bad matchup because he's been playing Jund at his local game store for a few weeks and he beat a couple Tron decks there.
I really hate to exclude people from discussions but the last five pages have just been a quagmire of complete nonsense, instigated by entirely unfounded information.
I could barge in here now and say everyone's wrong about sideboarding Hellkite because it won me 2 games against Abzan so we should all run two copies in the main and if you don't I will nag and whine ad nauseam and it would be just as useful. Ignore.
Then prove it
The entire point of these forums is to create the best, most optimum version of Jund.
This is why every time I ask the same question because no one has answered it yet.
And no. I did not base my opinion on the following
It's easier to ignore the guy - he played a Hazoret build for 2 games, lost both, dropped, and based his opinion on that. The other week he was insistent on how Tron isn't such a bad matchup because he's been playing Jund at his local game store for a few weeks and he beat a couple Tron decks there.
Stop putting words in my mouth. I am not just basing it on two games.
Also - I never said Tron was a good matchup. Please stop lying to prove a point. Then maybe we can actually have some constructive debates.
I am basing it on 6 pages of testimony where every single game hazrat the fervent has been good the Jund player was already winning Every single example thusfar.
There is not ONE example posted where the God won a game that the Jund player would have absolutely lost otherwise. Hence my reservations. I don't want to play "win more" cards in my deck.
Does Jund really want to play a four drop that is only good if you are already winning the game?
Amen.
I would like to discuss the landbase:
4 Blackcleave of 2 Blackcleave 2 Blooming Marsh?
My preference goes to the split. I am testing it right now.
How does all fair with the 1-off 5 drop in the main? I am stil on FlyingDelver' list. Stil on 24 land. Going to test next week some specific matchups.
Anyone any tips on a board?
The first cards I include are 3 Blood Moon. I always liked the free wins and the fear of the opponents heen they have seen one. Next to that I never liked played Fullies in Jund. Thoughts?
I've personally never liked Blood Moon in Jund. Mostly because it can really mess up your own mana base (needing double black and in some cases post board double green). Although it is more "powerful" than fuminator... this is mostly due to the surprise factor. Tron can play around blood moon fairly easily. (blood moon is not the biggest card they fear). The thing I like about fuminator is paired with surgical extraction it can make it nearly impossible for Tron to win (while they can still win vs blood moon).
From my experience: I've found blood moon to be more successful at local metas and less powerful at big events.
Also- if you are cutting bolts and heavy read cards, I could see going to 2 blackcleave 2 blooming marsh.
I was able to get some testing in tonight and this is what I ran. I threw the sideboard together but I think I would prefer to have a 2nd Damnation over the 2nd Kitchen Finks. Maybe even one or two more changes.
The main purpose of the testing was to get a feel for Hazoret, having a slightly overall lower average CMC to be able to empty my hand a little easier in the instance that I have Hazoret in hand and want to slam and go to town ASAP, and also to see how eight MD discard felt. I think Scavenging Ooze is well positioned right now so I'm not willing to drop them like some of the recent lists that include Glorybringer. My friend was on Abzan Company with the new Vizier of Remedies combo.
Preboard 2-2
Postboard 4-0
Out:
4 Iok
4 LotV
1 TS
In:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Collective Brutality
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Damnation
I'm obviously heavily favored postboard with everything I brought in so the 4-0 result wasn't a huge surprise. From the eight games, I was fortunate enough to have Hazoret in hand during multiple situations. One thing I really liked about this list was that I was, on multiple occasions, I was able to go T1 discard, T2 discard, T3 LotV, which is going to be great for disrupting your opponent's game plan no matter what deck they are playing. Hazoret was always most effective when I was able to T3 LotV, making it easier to be down to one card or less for attacking/blocking. The amount of pressure it put on my opponent was also very high, coupled with removal it basically gave them one turn to combo off before they were forced to chump block with combo pieces or risk a bolt in hand coupled with an activation for lethal. The reach was also relevant, I was able to win on a gummed up board with a couple activations.
Previously in the thread, I know there were some people voicing concerns about how Hazoret plays with Bob so I'll address what I experienced. The times I was able to stick Bob, I was drawing so many cards that having a dead Hazoret in my hand was not even a concern, I just won those games on sheer card advantage. Or maybe I was able to draw two or three cards before they found removal, then I just wasn't able to play Hazoret on T4 but as long as I had extra interaction or creatures then I wasn't in a hurry because Goyf was basically playing the same role as the early beater or blocker.
My overall initial impression is that Hazoret is a 4-drop that will be effective much more than it is ineffective, solidly cementing a place in my personal toolbox of Jund 4-drops. It has real strength in game one of any match-up, which is not true for all of our 4-drops. I think most Jund players have switched to DS because of the immense pressure Shadow puts on opponents and I think this card does somewhat of the same, without being as large as Shadow but being much more resilient to removal. My opponent boarded in PtE but was never able to keep one in hand with my disruption before I ever cast Hazoret. I will continue to do more testing this week, specifically against Eldrazi Tron and Burn. I would encourage anyone who has not tested with Hazoret to try it out, it allows us to be slightly more threatening while continuing to play our traditional style.
Honestly, after reading a lot of the situations where hazorat is good... I'm starting to feel like it's more of a "win more card".
In nearly every single situation described where the God was amazing... the Jund player was already winning and/or ahead.
If you have a turn 3 liliana that sticks... you already have a high statistical chance of winning that game.
If you are able to take a removal spell off of discard, you are are also in a very good spot.
My hunch is Hazorate requires other cards to actually be good.
Does anyone have experience with Thundermaw Hellkite? I noticed some recent Jund lists where kite was in the sideboards.
I got so excited with the hasty Hazoret the Fervent that I started to think about this haste dragon. My meta sees a fair amount of flying souls and faeries, not to mention some awkward planeswalker decks. This would be a nice answer to all of those, not to mention it is 5/5 evasive creature anyways.
My attitude towards hellkite has always been: if you expect alot of Abzan or BW tokens - play it.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
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Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Chandra can act as removal as well. As a result even against the hyper aggro decks it is a far better top deck then say an inquisition or thoughtseize.
Yes it's not the most ideal card vs affinity, but the -3 makes it considerably more useful than Liliana (in the specific matchup of Affinity).
plus if it sticks around - you will be winning that game.
Leyline seems an odd inclusion, especially with the decline of Dredge. Of course you could also use it vs storm and coco combo decks... so depending on the meta maybe it's worth it.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
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Current Decks
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Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
FYI: the 90% number was theoretical and arbitrary (not actual). I wasn't saying that 90% of the games WHERE that way.
So far that appears to be the case... but thats only out of a couple dozen games (which is not enough).
My apologizes if my statement was confusing.
I personally have about a dozen games on free programs testing against myself (plus the posts here).
To play devil's advocate (Against myself) maybe we do need a win more card?
Arguably our worst matchups (tron, Eldrazi Tron) only get worse the longer the game goes on.... maybe we need a win-more card to close out the game quickly.
Again.... not enough games to know for sure.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
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Technically it is. Yes the sample size is not large enough to actually come to a 100% conclusion (hence why I keep asking for other examples)
but it IS statistics and actual game play.
Statistics are numbers. Game results ARE numbers. If 90% of the games where hazorate is good you're already ahead... there is a good chance it's a card that is only good when you are ahead.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
I am not blathering on. I am simply responding to someone who was responding to my argument. Would never have brought it up again if someone didn't directly reference my argument. Additionally - the 6 pages I reference to are NOT my own comments, but people posting specific examples of how the God was good. In every case (that I read) they were already ahead. Hence my comment.
Also - can we not keep this topic constructive? Your post literally has nothing to do with either keeping things on topic or Jund.
It serves zero purpose.
Hazorate is a great closer if you are already ahead... but based on my own play testing (and other testimonies here) it doesn't do alot if you are behind.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
You are correct... 6 pages of Hazoret the Fervent being a win-more card is not proof. Why care about statistics anyways?
There is not a single example in the last 6 pages of Hazoret breaking a stalled board state or winning a game from behind. Not one.
I keep asking for such an example... and I keep getting criticized for that question.
Also, if you are facing down a board of smashers that you have not dealt with... that can only mean two things. Either you have drawn all lands OR you have dead cards in hand (Fatal Pushes, Ancient Grudges with no targets, etc.) If you are drawing only lands or only dead cards... very unlikely that you'd actually be able to turn on Hazorate. So yes... in that case I would prefer a card like Huntsmaster to buy me extra turns to find a damnation. Because at that point Damnation is the only way you are winning that game.
EDIT: That being said... if you want a "closer" there is no better card than Hazoret the Fervent.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
I really really like Chandra. She's been amazing for me in nearly every single matchup.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
No. I mean fuminator mage is harder to play around as it requires drawing either an additional tron piece or a karn to reset the game.
Against blood moon they can draw karn, Ugin, Nature's Claim (post board) or oblivion stone (only the claim is not a main decked card).
EDIT: what I was trying to say "poorly" is Tron has far more outs vs a blood moon than a fuminator mage + surgical extraction. Jund typically has a fast enough clock and enough creatures post board where a turn 7 karn isn't all that scary.
Plus you often leave in thought-seizes against Tron as well.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
1x Blood Crypt
2x Bloodstained Mire
2x Forest
1x Overgrown Tomb
4x Raging Ravine
1x Stomping Ground
2x Swamp
1x Twilight Mire
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Wooded Foothills
1x Abrupt Decay
2x Fatal Push
4x lightning bolt
2x Kolaghan's Command
4x Terminate
Sorcery (7)
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Thoughtseize
4x Dark Confidant
3x Scavenging Ooze
4x Tarmogoyf
Planeswalker (5)
1x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4x Liliana of the Veil
Round One: Blue Moon 2-1
Game 1 he has everything (counters, removal, and spreading seas). I keep a hand with 3 bobs, goyf, ooze, and lands. I play the goyf and ooze first (to draw out counter magic and spells). Despite that... he still is able to keep all three bobs from hitting the table. In addition he plays 3 spreading seas this game... I loose steam.
Game 2 & 3 - I draw discard heavy hands and am able to play around his disruption.
Round Two: Cheroies 2-0
Discard + removal game 1 makes it an easy win. He mulls to 5 game 2.
Round Three: Bant Eldrazi 0-2
Game 1 he turn 3 TKS taking my only relevent removal spell (liliana). I never draw anything else relevant and quickly loose.
Game 2 I misplay. I play Liliana knowing he has a reality smasher in hand (should have held on to it).
Round Four: Illusions 2-0
Super easy matchup. Damnation won me game 2.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
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Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
I'd agree with this 100%.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
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Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
I am not knocking his review at all... just stating that based on the description he was already winning at that point in time.
Hazorat did not "win him the game". It allowed him to close the game, sure. But based on the exact game descriptions written above... he was already winning (and most likely would have won even if Hazorat has been a different card).
Should we not take that into consideration when evaluating cards?
My statement that he was already winning was not an opinion. It was a derived fact based on the description of the game state.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Then prove it
The entire point of these forums is to create the best, most optimum version of Jund.
This is why every time I ask the same question because no one has answered it yet.
And no. I did not base my opinion on the following
Stop putting words in my mouth. I am not just basing it on two games.
Also - I never said Tron was a good matchup. Please stop lying to prove a point. Then maybe we can actually have some constructive debates.
I am basing it on 6 pages of testimony where every single game hazrat the fervent has been good the Jund player was already winning
Every single example thusfar.
There is not ONE example posted where the God won a game that the Jund player would have absolutely lost otherwise. Hence my reservations. I don't want to play "win more" cards in my deck.
Does Jund really want to play a four drop that is only good if you are already winning the game?
I've personally never liked Blood Moon in Jund. Mostly because it can really mess up your own mana base (needing double black and in some cases post board double green). Although it is more "powerful" than fuminator... this is mostly due to the surprise factor. Tron can play around blood moon fairly easily. (blood moon is not the biggest card they fear). The thing I like about fuminator is paired with surgical extraction it can make it nearly impossible for Tron to win (while they can still win vs blood moon).
From my experience: I've found blood moon to be more successful at local metas and less powerful at big events.
Also- if you are cutting bolts and heavy read cards, I could see going to 2 blackcleave 2 blooming marsh.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Honestly, after reading a lot of the situations where hazorat is good... I'm starting to feel like it's more of a "win more card".
In nearly every single situation described where the God was amazing... the Jund player was already winning and/or ahead.
If you have a turn 3 liliana that sticks... you already have a high statistical chance of winning that game.
If you are able to take a removal spell off of discard, you are are also in a very good spot.
My hunch is Hazorate requires other cards to actually be good.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
My attitude towards hellkite has always been: if you expect alot of Abzan or BW tokens - play it.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
mainboard GY hate. The exile clause can be super relevant.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA