I'm very surprised with Cindervines
I will try it in my current two decks DS Jund in Modern and AggroLoam in Legacy
Probably two of them in the main (in both cases).
I'm very surprised with Cindervines
I will try it in my current two decks DS Jund in Modern and AggroLoam in Legacy
Probably two of them in the main (in both cases).
Against what do you bring it in?
Obviously UR phoenix but then? Uw Control?
Since the KCI ban, not sure it's good enaugh; (maybe im wrong)
The deck just does exactly what I want to do in Modern, it's playing a Jund game that doesn't flood out and just aims to disrupt and kill your opponent as fast as possible. I honestly haven't felt this in-sync with my deck since I was playing Jund before the Twin ban.
It's funny, because when I first switched to Grixis from 5-Color (before Grixis adopted Baubles) I felt exactly the opposite, that Grixis was so much easier to play because there were less micro-decisions that could come back to haunt me. That scale has definitely shifted now, and I find the Jund version much easier to pilot.
I have pretty differing sideboard philosophies for Jund vs 4C. With 4C, when going to sideboard I primarily think about how I want to interact with my opponent, since I can interact with them/their stuff in every way possible. I think that finding the right balance of discard, countermagic, removal, land hate, and graveyard hate post-board across all of your matchups is the biggest learning curve that 4C has. In general, I felt like when I had a well-built sideboard and knew how much of each kind of interaction I wanted (and didn't lose to my mana base) my winrate against more linear decks was very high.
I'm still learning how to sideboard with Jund Shadow, but in general I think of the deck as having two complimentary halves. There's the "Jund" half, with Inquisition, Tarmogoyf, Liliana of the Veil, and all of the removal. Then there's the "Shadow" half, with Thoughtseize, Death's Shadow, and Street Wraith. In general, I find that I like to lean on the Jund half for fair matchups (Izzet Phoenix, U/W/x, B/G/x, Shadow mirrors, Burn, and most creature decks), and the Shadow half for unfair matchups (KCI, Tron, Dredge, Hollow One). Independent of either strategy are cards like Traverse the Ulvenwald and Mishra's Bauble, which are just cogs in the machine that make it easier to execute either strategy and find the correct threat for the matchup.
The flexibility to transition up and down the agro/control -> midrange scale is a commonly praised hallmark of Grixis Shadow, and while I think it's not possible for 4 color to effectively do the same thing, Jund Shadow is very much able to move up and down that scale, as well. That flexibility is the core of why I think both 3 color versions are superior to the 4 color one. I think that the decks do it differently, though, with Grixis more dependent on using its sideboard to move up and down the scale, while Jund Shadow is less dependent on its sideboard (and less helped by it) and more dependent on adjusting the way you're actually playing in-game. I typically play to the Jund half by being more conservative with my life total and boarding out a couple of Street Wraiths. I will often fetch basics early on against U/R decks like Blue Moon and Izzet Phoenix, because if you don't give them the chance to burn you out its actually pretty hard for them to win because they do such a poor job of killing your creatures. In these matchups, I treat Death's Shadow as more of an insurance policy to guarantee that my opponent won't be able to out-race me, and don't worry too much about powering them out early.
I've actually been thinking about recording a deck tech and a couple leagues and putting them up on Youtube, because I don't see anyone else talking about this deck the way I think of it.
Wow !! Same here; I'm on jund 3 color shadow since BBE unban. I play it exactly the way you do and my win% is so high.
I like the way you explain it tho.. "jund half" and "shadow half" so true.
Not having to be aggresive and fetching basic early the game happens so often.
How was Collective Brutality against domain zoo? Seems odd being the only creatures you can hit are Noble and BBE. But even the other two modes are useful.
How often do you cast BBE and flip a total dud such as Bauble or Traverse (with no delirium)? There are other examples as well
His list changed a bit, since he lost to me yesterday. (he was also playing Qasali and knight)
Discard Helix, Bolt, Boros, Tribal Flames and more. And gain life if I need to.
Collective brutality has been OK yesterday so far. The master card was TBR against Zoo.
Not having delirium on turn 4 is something that very very rarely happens. Same for having 13 life or more.
Unless, I'm very behind and I have to try something, I won't cast it.
20-0 with the list at FNM level.. and great results online. I'm pretty sure this list have some potential.
20-0 sounds impressive, but what are you playing against? Need more context for your claim.
My meta is very diverse;
I fought:
Uw control(final)
Sultai Control
Hollow one
Humans
All in RED
Affinity
Tribal Zoo(final)
Scapeshift
Boros Burn
Izzet Thing
Lanthern (final)
Bant spirit (final)
2x Eldrazi n taxes (final)
2x Counter company
2x Ponza
2x Grixis Death Shadow
Won a ravnica box (36packs), liliana of the veil, Vendillon clique mm foil, and $90 credit store.
How was Collective Brutality against domain zoo? Seems odd being the only creatures you can hit are Noble and BBE. But even the other two modes are useful.
How often do you cast BBE and flip a total dud such as Bauble or Traverse (with no delirium)? There are other examples as well
His list changed a bit, since he lost to me yesterday. (he was also playing Qasali and knight)
Discard Helix, Bolt, Boros, Tribal Flames and more. And gain life if I need to.
Collective brutality has been OK yesterday so far. The master card was TBR against Zoo.
Not having delirium on turn 4 is something that very very rarely happens. Same for having 13 life or more.
Unless, I'm very behind and I have to try something, I won't cast it.
20-0 with the list at FNM level.. and great results online. I'm pretty sure this list have some potential.
If that is your rival's exact list, then I think you should be in good shape. He has zero Path to Exile which is great for you. His creatures are slower then classic Boros Burn, and he's using Risk Factor which seems clunky and slow (could be wrong about that one).
But overall I would say your list needs to be faster. If BBE is working for you then I won't criticise, but it doesn't add up for me. Many of my games don't get me up to 4 lands so I couldn't bare to play a card like that. Tarfire seems better than Seal of Fire because it is specifically two types in one. Instant speed means you can hide it from your opponent.
No Inquisition of Kozilek and no counterspells mean you will likely be weaker to burn decks in any form. Assassin's Trophy also seems less than ideal unless you expect a lot of UW control or Tron.
@Spooly - I expect you're slam-dunking on the Arclight decks as well as lanternless whir decks? Personally I'm really excited for the meta to shift away from UW and Jund because those are the only consistently impossible match-ups for us. I finally got a new laptop so I'll be able to start grinding out MTGO reps again, and checking out the shifting meta game
Thank you, I won against him in final (= Another 4-0 undefeated FNM with that list.
(played 3 cbrutality and 2 tbr in sb.)
I use seal of fire for the tempo (turn 1 then turn2 goyf + removal) and because it's a better
cascade than tarfire for BBE. And yes, BBE is doing an amazing job for me. I play this deck since
she's unbanned. She's a house. 4 lands is not a problem for me tho. I feel favored against UW control and tradional jund.
18 lands + 4 traverse + 8 cantrip is enaugh to get it done. My deck doesnt always look for the turn 3-4 kill.
I won my last 4 fnm being undefeated and one of my oponent (A dude that I face very often
because he's a great player) decided to play a deck suppose to destroy (in his opinion) DS deck's. (Tribal Zoo burn)
I think my best chance is arround TBR; What would you side against it? more Cbrutality?
My gameplan is playing the control game on the first turn. Let him use his burn spell then
drop my creatures. Never fought this deck before. Anyone?
Sideboard (15)
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical extraction
2 collective brutality
2 liliana, the last hope
2 Anger of the god
1 Choke
1 Hazoret, the fervent
1 Ghor Clan Rampager
1 Temur Battle rage
2 Ancient Grudge
Yeah, Sultai + red splash for MD TBR and SB cards for non - UW / BGx mathcups was my first thought as well. We'll probably get crushed by humans though. And have more trouble with most other aggro decks than we would like.
I 2-0'd human at my last FNM (the one I did 5-0) so it's beatable..I guess (he finished 3rd)
I found Snapcaster to be reeeally awkward in most other matchups though, which led me to abandon that plan (and eventually the deck). 3+ mana is just so much for the deck.
I still think you're underestimating the impact of people playing Assassin's Trophy against shadow builds of all flavors. Snapcaster and Souls may help the Jund matchup, but it's now much harder to have more than 3 colors to support all of these things, especially in the Jund matchup.
It's for these reasons that I'm thinking of going more Sultai post-GRN, with the only red main board bring TBR. Fatal Push will replace bolts (I'm currently on 1FP/3LB but I'll go 4FP as Rock decks rise again). And then counter magic will increase in relevance since Trophy will replace Decay in said Rock decks. Souls package could still be kept in the board but I don't think it's necessary. I'm thinking 5x main deck counter spells and 2-3 Snapcaster with likely only 3/3 Traverse/IOK to help make room.
Sideboard red cards would likely be only 2x Abrade and 1x K-Command. Extra counters in Sideboard for Burn seems useful as well. Do you think Bontu's Last Reckoning would suffice as a SB sweeper if I go light on red Mana?
If you go splash red (as I do) I recommand Firespout. If you are not able to get your red source, At least you can still kill
lingering souls tokens, spirits, etc.. from the battlefield with the green source (= I would not play Bontu's.
Another nice interaction you have with Assassin's trophy (just though about it)
You look at the oponent top library with bauble. If it's a land, you let him draw it; If it's a great card, you destroy
any permanent on his battlefield to make him shuffle his library. If he doesnt search and keep his top deck that way.
Fine, you have no drawback on ur card. If he shuffle, the good top deck is going back in his library. WIN/WIN situation.
And btw, the card is great in my oponion because its not situational. It wont have a terminate in hand when u need to destroy bridge/cranial.
You wont have decay in hand when you need to destroy TKS/gurmag. It's a catch all. That's why the card is so great.
BGx is a horrific matchup though, and this will get more people playing GBx. And I do think it makes GBx even worse for us. They'll have no trouble killing our dudes even without Decay, so going long they now have another angle of attack --- try to cut us off a color.
I really feel favored against Jund (my list is slower than yours); The meta will slow down (I guess) and the deck will adapt to be less explosive.
We have the tool.
This card hurts us more than it helps tbh. Our manabase is pretty fragile, even in pure Jund. We just can't play that many basics.
I disagree, people will replace Decay with it. We will be able to counter it not decay.
It helps against: Gurmag, Tasigur, Teferi, Jace, TKS, KCI, Tron lands, Manlands and more ! BIG UPSIDE.
Against what do you bring it in?
Obviously UR phoenix but then? Uw Control?
Since the KCI ban, not sure it's good enaugh; (maybe im wrong)
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
You are right about land drop but the biggest reason is to enable traverse.
Affinity doesnt kill your threat so having creature in your GY is though.
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
recently, we've seen in a jund shadow list 2x Scab-Clan Berserker in the sideboard.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1575220#paper
It looks good against alot of matchup;
-KCI
-Burn
-Izzet Phoenix
-Tron
-Storm
-Uw control (pressure + can finish a planewalker)
Anyone tested it?
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
Wow !! Same here; I'm on jund 3 color shadow since BBE unban. I play it exactly the way you do and my win% is so high.
I like the way you explain it tho.. "jund half" and "shadow half" so true.
Not having to be aggresive and fetching basic early the game happens so often.
Goodjob, great text.
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
My meta is very diverse;
I fought:
Uw control(final)
Sultai Control
Hollow one
Humans
All in RED
Affinity
Tribal Zoo(final)
Scapeshift
Boros Burn
Izzet Thing
Lanthern (final)
Bant spirit (final)
2x Eldrazi n taxes (final)
2x Counter company
2x Ponza
2x Grixis Death Shadow
Won a ravnica box (36packs), liliana of the veil, Vendillon clique mm foil, and $90 credit store.
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
His list changed a bit, since he lost to me yesterday. (he was also playing Qasali and knight)
Discard Helix, Bolt, Boros, Tribal Flames and more. And gain life if I need to.
Collective brutality has been OK yesterday so far. The master card was TBR against Zoo.
Not having delirium on turn 4 is something that very very rarely happens. Same for having 13 life or more.
Unless, I'm very behind and I have to try something, I won't cast it.
20-0 with the list at FNM level.. and great results online. I'm pretty sure this list have some potential.
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
Thank you, I won against him in final (= Another 4-0 undefeated FNM with that list.
(played 3 cbrutality and 2 tbr in sb.)
I use seal of fire for the tempo (turn 1 then turn2 goyf + removal) and because it's a better
cascade than tarfire for BBE. And yes, BBE is doing an amazing job for me. I play this deck since
she's unbanned. She's a house. 4 lands is not a problem for me tho. I feel favored against UW control and tradional jund.
18 lands + 4 traverse + 8 cantrip is enaugh to get it done. My deck doesnt always look for the turn 3-4 kill.
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
because he's a great player) decided to play a deck suppose to destroy (in his opinion) DS deck's. (Tribal Zoo burn)
Here his list:
https://www.magic-ville.com/fr/decks/showdeck.php?ref=572307&fbclid=IwAR09bg6CbgIFIYx5TDtgGBnr-32m5hQR0OQwsXn18drZOXlFNhibzIgkLVQ
I think my best chance is arround TBR; What would you side against it? more Cbrutality?
My gameplan is playing the control game on the first turn. Let him use his burn spell then
drop my creatures. Never fought this deck before. Anyone?
Here's my list:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Death's shadow
4 Street wraith
4 Bloodbraid elf
Instant(10)
3 Fatal push
1 Dismember
4 Assassin's trophy
2 Kolaghan's command
Sorcery(8)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
Enchantment(2)
2 Seal of fire
Artifact(4)
4 Mishra's Bauble
Planeswalker(2)
2 Liliana of the veil
Land(18)
4 Verdant catacombs
4 Bloodstained mire
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Overgrown tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood crypt
Sideboard (15)
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical extraction
2 collective brutality
2 liliana, the last hope
2 Anger of the god
1 Choke
1 Hazoret, the fervent
1 Ghor Clan Rampager
1 Temur Battle rage
2 Ancient Grudge
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
I 2-0'd human at my last FNM (the one I did 5-0) so it's beatable..I guess (he finished 3rd)
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
If you go splash red (as I do) I recommand Firespout. If you are not able to get your red source, At least you can still kill
lingering souls tokens, spirits, etc.. from the battlefield with the green source (= I would not play Bontu's.
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
You look at the oponent top library with bauble. If it's a land, you let him draw it; If it's a great card, you destroy
any permanent on his battlefield to make him shuffle his library. If he doesnt search and keep his top deck that way.
Fine, you have no drawback on ur card. If he shuffle, the good top deck is going back in his library. WIN/WIN situation.
And btw, the card is great in my oponion because its not situational. It wont have a terminate in hand when u need to destroy bridge/cranial.
You wont have decay in hand when you need to destroy TKS/gurmag. It's a catch all. That's why the card is so great.
=)
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
I really feel favored against Jund (my list is slower than yours); The meta will slow down (I guess) and the deck will adapt to be less explosive.
We have the tool.
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund