If your expected Meta is very grindy, cutting a single Street Wraith can actually be a good idea because drawing them in the late game can become a liability when your life total is already low.
You can sometimes hardcast it as a threat lategame. Should not be underestimated.
My flooded strand are off color but that's actually okay since most of the time I fetch for a basic island or a shockland.
I would run more black fetching lands as replacement for Scalding. I personally run Verdant Catacombs, which is able to fetch for all lands except Steam Vents and basic Island, whereas Flooded Strand wont't fetch for 2 Blood Crypt and 1 Swamp, which is one land more you can't fetch. Therefore I would go with extra black fetches.
One question that crossed my mind, how many of you are running lightning bolts and versus what is it better against?
I'm currently playing one bolt and thinking on playing more, they might help against some matchups like burn, aggro decks, jeskai control and grixis shadow mirror.
Opinions?
Don't know what you would cut for it. I personally like the extra copies of cantrips in form of Opt better here to draw me fatal push more consistantly which just seems better against Burn and Grixis DS alike.
Can someone help me with the matchup vs burn?
How do you usually play against it?
I sideboard out street wraith and brutallity in, also flashfreeze and a negate. And didn't see any of them and lost the other day 2-1.
The match that I won, I thoughtseized, inquisition and snapcaster inquisition.
The last match, on the draw (that I lost) I kept a hand something like: snapcaster, denial, denial and two lands. And got a beating. Should I be mulliganing for the discard or the cards that I sideboarded in?
Can someone give me their insight on this?
Don't dmg yourself and build up your board with delve creatures. If they burn you down consistantly, drop your DS and win. Basically Burn should collect their Burn spells and win within one turn. But thats where counters and discard help a lot. I would just try to find an early delve threat and discard their paths to not be able to deal with it and then preserve life totals as much as possible and remove all threats they have. Burn is not that hard in my experience.
I want to try a 3/3 split of Opt and Visions next time.
Had a mirror matchup today and lost pretty hard. I am curious, whats the concesus on what to board out in that matchup?
I chose to board to max out on tempo, cutting Denials, Swamp and IOK. My opponent cut all discard and chose to run the controlish way (bringin in more cards that trade 2-for-1)
I am pretty sure my sideboarding was wrong, but am not on cutting discard either. Whats your way to approach the mirror?
My approach to the matchup is similarish to that of your oponent and so far all of my mirror oponents have done the same:
I board out all my street wraiths aswell as a fatal push (since I am bringing in other, less narrow removal) and fill my deck with midrange bombs like both Lilianas.
Currently I also cut the K-Commands vs Esper Shadow in favor of Nihil spellbombs but I am not sure how good that is.
The basic Idea is that, since the deck is filled to the brim with very efficient removal and disruption it is highly unlikely you will be able to overrun / outtempo your oponent. Instead the game almost allways turns into a huge grind fest so you want to sideboard accordingly.
One of my friends, the resident spike of out community that also has multiple high profile finished under his belt, goes as far as chosing the draw in UBx Shadow mirror every time.
I´ve recently started to use his advice and so far, against all my instincts, I think it might actually be the right choice
In that case tough, if its a grindfest, cutting discard might be the best way I feel. I wouldn't cut Street Wraiths then, because a) usually the person wins which DS are bigger and b) SWs are huge threats to actually hardcast in a longer game (I played Jund DS a while ago and SWs often won me games in the mirror). I think cutting discard seems good in that scenario then (they are miserable topdecks).
I want to try a 3/3 split of Opt and Visions next time.
Had a mirror matchup today and lost pretty hard. I am curious, whats the concesus on what to board out in that matchup?
I chose to board to max out on tempo, cutting Denials, Swamp and IOK. My opponent cut all discard and chose to run the controlish way (bringin in more cards that trade 2-for-1)
I am pretty sure my sideboarding was wrong, but am not on cutting discard either. Whats your way to approach the mirror?
Had a first successful FNM with Grixis DS, went 4-1.
Lost to Elves 0-2
Won against Jund 2-0
Won against Elves 2-0
Won against Dredgevine 2-0
Won against Burn 2-1
Felt really smooth and Opt was a good card apparantly.
Thoughtseize is better than that vs. burn. Postboard they'll have Path and Deflecting Palm, and killing them with a Shadow is priority 1 in the matchup. Taking an Eidolon is also very good. And, yes, taking a Boros Charm does essentially gain you 2 life if they would have been able to resolve it otherwise - that's just the math. Not that Thoughtseize is good in the matchup, but it has its uses - and it's also the most skill testing card in your deck. Knowing when to cast it is very difficult. If we had more real cards to bring in vs them, it would definitely be the next cut after the Street Wraiths. But Kozilek's Return is not a real card in the matchup. We already have a pile of removal and not a ton of targets, and Return costs a whopping 3 mana in a matchup that can end before you can cast it. And most burn decks are lighter on creatures these days (not that K Return kills Nacatl, but the kitty does stretch your spot removal more). K Return often can't even kill Swiftspear.
I didn't understand PV's SB plan vs affinity when he published that article, and I don't understand it now. Cutting Stubs seems like it could be defensible, but I die to Galvanic Blast a lot vs them. Cutting a clock just doesn't make sense to me though. I get Blood Mooned far more often than I get Rest in Peaced out of affinity.
Edit: as a side note, if there's no Tron in your meta, you can switch the Strokes to Flashfreezes and have essentially the same spell vs Valakut, but more anti-burn cards in your SB.
Flashfreeze would be cute, but unfortunately I do have some Tron in my meta. Burn is not the hugest problem, its not that much present. I guess TS works differently in Grixis than it does in Jund. But kinda makes sense, since you have a much bigger clock that you need to protect. In GBx though, TS is horrendus vs. Burn. Just for explanation, this is from my primer (This is not to convince anybody here, its just to show how I think about this when playing Jund.):
I often hear people arguing that TS is not as bad against Burn, because you can potentially snatch a Boros Charm or Atarkas Command, effectively gaining 2 life, right? Well, its not that simple.
I look at Burn as being a combo deck, which just has to resolve 6-7 spells in order to win the game. Generally, each spell will do 3 or sometimes 4 dmg to the opponent, so for 20 life --> 7 spells with 3 dmg per spell or 6 spells with two spells dealing 4 dmg are needed. Burn is a very consistant deck. It will more often than not draw the needed spells and just win. Now, when you are playing TS and taking Boros Charm out of the opponent’s hand, you annul the effect of Boros Charm which would have otherwise dealt 4 dmg to your face. But what you also did through this, is effective casting a free Shock on yourself. Combines this with a simple fetch you potentially did prior to this (even if you only fetched for 1) you effectively cast a free Lightning Bolt on yourself. So what did TS actually do for you? Nothing. You took Boros Charm, but bolted you alongside. You gave the opponent 1 of the 7 spells needed to kill you. (And to note, even if you don’t fetch for 1, you effectively cast a combo spell piece on yourself by casting TS, going down to 18 life and the burn player now just needs 6 instead of 7 3-dmg spells) So to conclude, if you TS the Burn player, you take away one spell they have but they simply have to draw one less spell alongside, which is just doing nothing.
What cards are you cutting in Control matchups like UW or Jeskai Control?
Liliana of the Veil is not particularly good in that meta. It really shines vs. other midrange decks, but it's pretty bad vs Coco, Affinity, and Elves. It's decent against control and better than nothing against Scapeshift though. Consider Liliana, the Last Hope in that slot instead, or perhaps something completely different. Adding 1-2 MD Mana Leak would help your Scapeshift matchup, for example, and they have a low floor in most other matchups.
I have a lot of comments about the SB plans, but notably I'm not entirely sure what to do with Young Pyromancer. I usually have Pia and Kiran Nalaar in that spot instead. I think I prefer YP as a MD card if it's in the 75 at all, but I haven't testing it enough to be sure.
I'd leave at least one K Command in vs Scapeshift (assuming it's GR Scapeshift) - they tend to have Chalice of the Void in their SB, and at worst it can help attrition them out. I'd probably cut the LotV instead. There's also an argument for -2 Snap, +2 YP just because you need to clock them. Or squeezing in the YPs some other way.
I'm not sure about bringing in Kozilek's Return vs Burn. I think I'd rather have the Thoughtseizes. Young Pyromancer, again, could be brought in as a clock / speed bump. Probably in place of some Thoughtseizes.
I wouldn't cut any threats vs. Control. Cutting Stubborn Denials also seems bad, though I wouldn't max out on them either. Stroke doesn't even hit stuff like Supreme Verdict or 3 mana Gideon (though you didn't mention which control deck).
I wouldn't cut Gurmags vs. Affinity - you need the threats. Or the 2 Stubborns. They counter Plating, can slow down some T1 nut draws, and counter Galvanic Blast which often kills you. Cut the Street Wraiths, and you can additionally shave Thoughtseizes for more room. LtlH is only OK here, so bringing both in may not be the best (most of their X/1s are manlands).
Bring in both LtlH vs. CoCo decks. It's your best card. Leave a couple Stubborn Denials in too - they have CoCo, possibly Chord/Eldritch Evolution, and they'll have paths postboard. You can cut some Street Wraiths here because they game will typically go long and your have to be careful with your life total. The matchup tends to be grindy, so I like leaving K Commands in too. Maybe at least one. Young Pyromancer also seems decent here. If you go -4 Wraith, -1 LotV, -1 K Command, then +2 LtlH, +2 K Return, +2 Collective Brutality, I think you're in a decent spot. Not sure how to work YP in there though.
Vs. Elves, you can cut more street Wraiths for the Young Pyromancers. This is the perfect matchup for Peezy, and you can't really afford the life loss of Wraith.
Vs. GBx, the games will go long so shaving 2 street wraith is prudent. Also, they have a ton of removal along with Decays, so cutting Denials is is good idea. I'd leave in all of the discard spells. (I know this is counterintuitive for midrange mirrors in general, but Shadow plays out just a little bit differently since you can kill them so quickly. And discard is your best answer to things like Decay and LotV.)
Thanks for the extensive response. Yeah about YP, I would really like to run him to have an option to go wide, but not sure since mostly it doesn't quite fit in concerning SB in various matchups. But I have seen him in SBs already, so thats why I thought about him.
On TS vs. Burn, the thing is that I am in strong believe that TS is more or less a card that reads: Pay 1 mana, your opponent needs one less card to kill you, and you discard a card from the opponent, which mostly equals to: Pay 1 Mana, do nothing. I think its a big misconception that taking a Boros Charm with TS "heals" yourself for 2 life. So I would basically like to cut all of them vs. Burn. I played sweepers in Jund vs. Burn in the past, its decent, but not sure it workes out the same way in Grixis DS.
The SB plan vs. Control is the one I am most uncertain of. Not sure if I want Stubborns or Strokes, for the reasons you mentioned. I thought about cutting one Angler to leverage possible GY hate. It should be geared vs. UW Control and Jeskai Control.
I chose to cut Gurmags vs. Affinity mostly due to Paulor Vitor Damo Da Rosa's Article on Channel Fireball, and I think it makes kinda sense, but not sure. Here is the link: Click.
I often saw Grixis DS players leave in Denials against GBx to have an answer to LoTV. I always thought personally that this is a mistake, but thats what basically every Grixis DS player did who I met.
Thanks for your tips on sideboarding, I will have a look at them again and rework my plan!
Thoughts: Maybe replace one Push with a third Stubborn denial main, which would change one Stubborn from the SB into a second Rejection. Am not sure about the YPs yet.
What are your thoughts about this list, my meta consists mainly of: Control, Affinity, CoCO decks, Scapeshift, some ELves, burn and a little bit GBx.
Also, is my SB plan for these matchups correct?
Burn: Cut 4 Street Wraith and 2 TS for 2 CB, 2 Kozilek's and 2 Stubborn?
Control: Cut 2 Push 2 Stubborn and 1 Terminate, 1 Gurmag Angler, Bring in 2 YP, 2 Stroke, 2 CB?
Affinity: Cut 1 LoTV, 2 Gurmag, 2 Stubborn, Bring in 2 Kozilek, 2 LtLH, 1 Rejection?
CoCo decks: Cut 1 LoTV, 2 KCommand, 2 Stubborn, bring in 2 KOzilek, 2 CB, 1 LtLH
Scapeshift: Cut 4 Pushes, 2 KCommand, Bring in 2 Stokes, 2 CB, 2 Stubborn
Elves: Cut 1 LoTV, 2 Street Wraith, 2 Stubborn, 1 KCommand, bring in 2 Kozilek, 2 CB, 2 LtLH
GBx: Cut 2 IOK, 2 TS, bring in 2 LtLH, 2 YP.
Thanks for any feedback on this.
EDIT: Oh and Verdant Catacombs are replacements for Scalding Tarns, since I don't have them.
I find it very inapropriate and wrong calling Tarfire and Mishra's Bauble as being "nonsense cards" in the very first few lines of the primer...
Honestly do you know what these cards do to DSJ? Did you ever play it? I highly recommend rephrasing that statement because it just reflects a wrong pricture of the current most present deck in modern.
For clarification: Tarfire helps for delirium and pumps goyfs, it is needed in order to reach consistancy and makes traverse moreso a broken card in that sense, because we can bring it online so fast. Combined with a goyf hit, you don't loose a damage from Tarfire being played over bolt, since it grows goyf more than bolt alone.
Bauble is also incredible in DSJ, effectively increasing consistancy with your draws and the information granted when using bauble on the opponent or yourself in order to turn it into a suito srew with a fetchland. But the most important part is that it thins the deck out in being a free cantrip, which is generally always very powerful.
I guess what you meant was that a card like Tarfire is on its own suboptimal, but especially in this deck those cards do fulfill their jobs, which is nowhere near "nonsense" to me.
Its ok to compare and contrast Grixis to DSJ, but it should not be this way honestly.
You took it a bit too personal. That sentence wasn't to demean the DSJ deck which we reference a lot on the Primer itself for being the Original deck from which this one evolved from. Also I tried to be sure that people would read your primer and they would learn from what's going on the thread because it's important for a Grixis Death's Shadow player as well.
The point of the sentence was one, which I thought was clear when I wrote it, that DSJ plays a couple of cards that on their own aren't that good (hence nonsensical... no other deck plays them) for synergistic reasons. I love the fact that the deck transforms nonsense cards in great additions to the deck.
I'm a sucker for synergy... One of the decks I enjoyed playing the most was Abzan Aristocrats in T2 and you can't go as nonsense as that. If it would please the general public I don't really mind rephrasing that sentence at all.
Maybe I took it too personal, you could be are right. Didn't want to be mean or anything, but I admit I was a bit annoyed when I read it. I still think nonsense is not the appropriate formulation for those cards. People new to the primer or new to the forum or magic even might misunderstand this, thats why I mentioned it (after all those cards do very well have a sense and application in the deck). I would write something like suboptimal for example.
I find it very inapropriate and wrong calling Tarfire and Mishra's Bauble as being "nonsense cards" in the very first few lines of the primer...
Honestly do you know what these cards do to DSJ? Did you ever play it? I highly recommend rephrasing that statement because it just reflects a wrong pricture of the current most present deck in modern.
For clarification: Tarfire helps for delirium and pumps goyfs, it is needed in order to reach consistancy and makes traverse moreso a broken card in that sense, because we can bring it online so fast. Combined with a goyf hit, you don't loose a damage from Tarfire being played over bolt, since it grows goyf more than bolt alone.
Bauble is also incredible in DSJ, effectively increasing consistancy with your draws and the information granted when using bauble on the opponent or yourself in order to turn it into a suito srew with a fetchland. But the most important part is that it thins the deck out in being a free cantrip, which is generally always very powerful.
I guess what you meant was that a card like Tarfire is on its own suboptimal, but especially in this deck those cards do fulfill their jobs, which is nowhere near "nonsense" to me.
Its ok to compare and contrast Grixis to DSJ, but it should not be this way honestly.
But even there, a lot of lists are cutting TBR altogether and running just 1 Ghor-Clan they can Traverse for.
That is a absolutely not true. Speaking as a DSJ player, Ghor-Clan Rampager is the card which sees rarely play right now. TBR is a stock 2 of in DSJ. Reason being it can just steals games which is very important overall, Ghor Clan can't do that. I agree TBR is worse in Grixis, but its great in Jund and its not a card that gets cut.
Its definitely not favourable. GDS is 100 % underdog in this matchup. Can confirm it from both sides.
You gotta kill those etched champions.
You can sometimes hardcast it as a threat lategame. Should not be underestimated.
I would run more black fetching lands as replacement for Scalding. I personally run Verdant Catacombs, which is able to fetch for all lands except Steam Vents and basic Island, whereas Flooded Strand wont't fetch for 2 Blood Crypt and 1 Swamp, which is one land more you can't fetch. Therefore I would go with extra black fetches.
Don't know what you would cut for it. I personally like the extra copies of cantrips in form of Opt better here to draw me fatal push more consistantly which just seems better against Burn and Grixis DS alike.
Don't dmg yourself and build up your board with delve creatures. If they burn you down consistantly, drop your DS and win. Basically Burn should collect their Burn spells and win within one turn. But thats where counters and discard help a lot. I would just try to find an early delve threat and discard their paths to not be able to deal with it and then preserve life totals as much as possible and remove all threats they have. Burn is not that hard in my experience.
In that case tough, if its a grindfest, cutting discard might be the best way I feel. I wouldn't cut Street Wraiths then, because a) usually the person wins which DS are bigger and b) SWs are huge threats to actually hardcast in a longer game (I played Jund DS a while ago and SWs often won me games in the mirror). I think cutting discard seems good in that scenario then (they are miserable topdecks).
Had a mirror matchup today and lost pretty hard. I am curious, whats the concesus on what to board out in that matchup?
I chose to board to max out on tempo, cutting Denials, Swamp and IOK. My opponent cut all discard and chose to run the controlish way (bringin in more cards that trade 2-for-1)
I am pretty sure my sideboarding was wrong, but am not on cutting discard either. Whats your way to approach the mirror?
Lost to Elves 0-2
Won against Jund 2-0
Won against Elves 2-0
Won against Dredgevine 2-0
Won against Burn 2-1
Felt really smooth and Opt was a good card apparantly.
Flashfreeze would be cute, but unfortunately I do have some Tron in my meta. Burn is not the hugest problem, its not that much present. I guess TS works differently in Grixis than it does in Jund. But kinda makes sense, since you have a much bigger clock that you need to protect. In GBx though, TS is horrendus vs. Burn. Just for explanation, this is from my primer (This is not to convince anybody here, its just to show how I think about this when playing Jund.):
I look at Burn as being a combo deck, which just has to resolve 6-7 spells in order to win the game. Generally, each spell will do 3 or sometimes 4 dmg to the opponent, so for 20 life --> 7 spells with 3 dmg per spell or 6 spells with two spells dealing 4 dmg are needed. Burn is a very consistant deck. It will more often than not draw the needed spells and just win. Now, when you are playing TS and taking Boros Charm out of the opponent’s hand, you annul the effect of Boros Charm which would have otherwise dealt 4 dmg to your face. But what you also did through this, is effective casting a free Shock on yourself. Combines this with a simple fetch you potentially did prior to this (even if you only fetched for 1) you effectively cast a free Lightning Bolt on yourself. So what did TS actually do for you? Nothing. You took Boros Charm, but bolted you alongside. You gave the opponent 1 of the 7 spells needed to kill you. (And to note, even if you don’t fetch for 1, you effectively cast a combo spell piece on yourself by casting TS, going down to 18 life and the burn player now just needs 6 instead of 7 3-dmg spells) So to conclude, if you TS the Burn player, you take away one spell they have but they simply have to draw one less spell alongside, which is just doing nothing.
What cards are you cutting in Control matchups like UW or Jeskai Control?
Thanks for the extensive response. Yeah about YP, I would really like to run him to have an option to go wide, but not sure since mostly it doesn't quite fit in concerning SB in various matchups. But I have seen him in SBs already, so thats why I thought about him.
On TS vs. Burn, the thing is that I am in strong believe that TS is more or less a card that reads: Pay 1 mana, your opponent needs one less card to kill you, and you discard a card from the opponent, which mostly equals to: Pay 1 Mana, do nothing. I think its a big misconception that taking a Boros Charm with TS "heals" yourself for 2 life. So I would basically like to cut all of them vs. Burn. I played sweepers in Jund vs. Burn in the past, its decent, but not sure it workes out the same way in Grixis DS.
The SB plan vs. Control is the one I am most uncertain of. Not sure if I want Stubborns or Strokes, for the reasons you mentioned. I thought about cutting one Angler to leverage possible GY hate. It should be geared vs. UW Control and Jeskai Control.
I chose to cut Gurmags vs. Affinity mostly due to Paulor Vitor Damo Da Rosa's Article on Channel Fireball, and I think it makes kinda sense, but not sure. Here is the link: Click.
I often saw Grixis DS players leave in Denials against GBx to have an answer to LoTV. I always thought personally that this is a mistake, but thats what basically every Grixis DS player did who I met.
Thanks for your tips on sideboarding, I will have a look at them again and rework my plan!
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Watery Grave
2 Blood Crypt
1 Steam Vents
1 Island
1 Swamp
Creature [15]
4 Death's Shadow
4 Street Wraith
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the golden Fang
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Serum Visions
2 Opt
4 Thought Scour
4 Fatal Push
2 Stubborn Denial
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Terminate
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Kozilek's Return
2 Collective Brutality
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Young Pyromancer
Thoughts: Maybe replace one Push with a third Stubborn denial main, which would change one Stubborn from the SB into a second Rejection. Am not sure about the YPs yet.
What are your thoughts about this list, my meta consists mainly of: Control, Affinity, CoCO decks, Scapeshift, some ELves, burn and a little bit GBx.
Also, is my SB plan for these matchups correct?
Burn: Cut 4 Street Wraith and 2 TS for 2 CB, 2 Kozilek's and 2 Stubborn?
Control: Cut 2 Push 2 Stubborn and 1 Terminate, 1 Gurmag Angler, Bring in 2 YP, 2 Stroke, 2 CB?
Affinity: Cut 1 LoTV, 2 Gurmag, 2 Stubborn, Bring in 2 Kozilek, 2 LtLH, 1 Rejection?
CoCo decks: Cut 1 LoTV, 2 KCommand, 2 Stubborn, bring in 2 KOzilek, 2 CB, 1 LtLH
Scapeshift: Cut 4 Pushes, 2 KCommand, Bring in 2 Stokes, 2 CB, 2 Stubborn
Elves: Cut 1 LoTV, 2 Street Wraith, 2 Stubborn, 1 KCommand, bring in 2 Kozilek, 2 CB, 2 LtLH
GBx: Cut 2 IOK, 2 TS, bring in 2 LtLH, 2 YP.
Thanks for any feedback on this.
EDIT: Oh and Verdant Catacombs are replacements for Scalding Tarns, since I don't have them.
Maybe I took it too personal, you could be are right. Didn't want to be mean or anything, but I admit I was a bit annoyed when I read it. I still think nonsense is not the appropriate formulation for those cards. People new to the primer or new to the forum or magic even might misunderstand this, thats why I mentioned it (after all those cards do very well have a sense and application in the deck). I would write something like suboptimal for example.
Honestly do you know what these cards do to DSJ? Did you ever play it? I highly recommend rephrasing that statement because it just reflects a wrong pricture of the current most present deck in modern.
For clarification: Tarfire helps for delirium and pumps goyfs, it is needed in order to reach consistancy and makes traverse moreso a broken card in that sense, because we can bring it online so fast. Combined with a goyf hit, you don't loose a damage from Tarfire being played over bolt, since it grows goyf more than bolt alone.
Bauble is also incredible in DSJ, effectively increasing consistancy with your draws and the information granted when using bauble on the opponent or yourself in order to turn it into a suito srew with a fetchland. But the most important part is that it thins the deck out in being a free cantrip, which is generally always very powerful.
I guess what you meant was that a card like Tarfire is on its own suboptimal, but especially in this deck those cards do fulfill their jobs, which is nowhere near "nonsense" to me.
Its ok to compare and contrast Grixis to DSJ, but it should not be this way honestly.
That is a absolutely not true. Speaking as a DSJ player, Ghor-Clan Rampager is the card which sees rarely play right now. TBR is a stock 2 of in DSJ. Reason being it can just steals games which is very important overall, Ghor Clan can't do that. I agree TBR is worse in Grixis, but its great in Jund and its not a card that gets cut.