The play patterns seem similar at a glance to Grixis Death's Shadow. Is that true in your knowledge?
It depends a lot on the build. Mine is very grindy (imagine a midrange deck that plays everything at instant speed and replaces discard with counterspells), but others are more shadow-like. The main difference between delver and gds is that you always have to try and get cheap damage turn by turn while gds relies on few massive life swings.
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Playing since FRF
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Jeskai Delver
Standard:
Temur Energy
EDH:
Roon of the Hidden Realm
Hi all. Long time lurker. I've been out of modern for a while. Is Delver still decent? I'm basically looking to have a deck that I can keep around that won't get banned.
The deck is, of course, not a tier. But the format is so vast that it still rewards the knowledge of the deck more than it's actual power level, so yes, if you can pilot it very well, you can still have good results with it. The meta is not great at the moment, but it isn't even terrible, so, after mastering it, you can expect an average winrate around 45% in my opinion, which is pretty good for an untiered deck.
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Playing since FRF
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Jeskai Delver
Standard:
Temur Energy
EDH:
Roon of the Hidden Realm
no one talking about new cards and what can we add to our delver decks? anyone tried the new pyromancer instead of young pyro? what about the ashiok dream render? it can be a huge gas for our delve creatures and a good answer against graveyard focused deck as well, plus the passive ability. I'm trying 2x seasoned pyro insted of young pyro, huge card, even if it does not fit super well in our deck
I'm testing a 2-2 split between the two pyromancers and I feel great with it. I also loved two fiery islet replacing the fast lands I used to run. I'm also a fan of bedevil as a 1 of to replace dreadbore. It's heavy on the mana base but way better than dreadbore. For the side, I'm loving plague engineer and trying out one flusterstorm, which has performed decently but didn't shine. I don't like the new ashiok because I'm super light on delve threats (only one tasigur) and it feels too slow against graveyard decks, especially hoogakvine, which is still nearly unbeatable if it has a decent-good start.
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Playing since FRF
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Jeskai Delver
Standard:
Temur Energy
EDH:
Roon of the Hidden Realm
Discard is bad in tempo, as I stated shortly above. So I'd cut the 4 ioks and add 2 kcommands. I'd also replace the 3rd push with the 4th opt and change the counter base, going with 3 mana leaks, 2 spell snares and 1 dispel. For the last slot I'd add a fatal push.
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Playing since FRF
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Jeskai Delver
Standard:
Temur Energy
EDH:
Roon of the Hidden Realm
Because of how a tempo deck works compared to midrange. The latter has a tap-out strategy that aims to destroy the opponent's resources and, afterwards, win the attrition game. Tempo, instead, is a draw-go strategy that wants to land a threat AND THEN protect it while it hits the opponent. The disadvantage is that it's harder to protect something than killing it, of course (and also that counterspells in modern aren't great), but the advantage is that the opponent wastes mana playing the spell you counter (or the creature you kill) basically making he lose one turn and bringing you one turn closer to the win. Discard spells, on the other side, don't make the opponent waste any mana and leave you unprotected from topdecks.
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Playing since FRF
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Jeskai Delver
Standard:
Temur Energy
EDH:
Roon of the Hidden Realm
I'm currently thinking about having a second modern deck and from all options I found Grixis Delver very interesting for his potential to improve over time. However, since it's not a cheap deck, i want to start with a budget version. Wich version de delver deck you think I shoud start with considering the amount of cards in common, the price and how competitive it is?
I see three options : Mono U Delver, UB and UR
Thx!
I started with UR back in 2015 and slowly upgraded it with kolaghan's command, snapcasters and the mana base, but it's a pretty decent starting point. Also, the fetchless mana base from UR storm is super fine for the deck and very cheap. I'd go for a playset of young pyromancers and abbots of kheral keep for a budget creature shell and then replace the abbots with snapcasters, one pyro with a vendilion clique and then add the delve threats. While you are UR, I'd go with roast and harvest pyre as "hard" removals and then of course replace them with 2 pushes and 2 terminates. Last thing I'm sure about, don't fall in either of the cryptic or discard temptation. They are both wrong choices (I couldn't just see a couple of seizes in the side, but that's all). Good luck!
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Playing since FRF
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Jeskai Delver
Standard:
Temur Energy
EDH:
Roon of the Hidden Realm
Have any of you considered light up the stage in this deck? It makes for a cheap 2 for 1 in most cases, and it’s a sorcery for delver and pyro. The only thing is that it doesn’t work well with counterspells, so you’d most likely want to run discard spells to make it worth playing, but I think that’s not an issue considering discard spells are better than counterspells right now in modern with all the aether vial/cavern of souls decks and decks with better counterspells of their own. Idk, just a thought. It reminded me a little of Treasure Cruise, with not nearly the same power level of course, but potential for being a 1 mana draw 2 in most cases. Let me know what you guys think!
I've tested it for a while. It seemed cool but often too clunky and I ended up cutting it. As for the discard spells, they don't fit our game plan at all since we want to be tempo/draw go. If you want to go tap out and then be synergistic with discard, delver becomes bad and you should play mardu pyro instead. Of course this is just my opinion, but I've not been greatly impressed by it.
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Playing since FRF
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Jeskai Delver
Standard:
Temur Energy
EDH:
Roon of the Hidden Realm
Cryptic is too intensive for the 90% of delver decks but it depends on your manabase and the number of blue sources. I'm not sure about the maths behind it but I believe you can find it on line for sure. Izzet charm was a card I used to play when I was straight UR, but in Grixis you have way too many good cards and stormchaser shines only in an all in prowess deck, while in Grixis you want to remain mana open as much as possible and play only instant speed. If you like the card I suggest you Temur Prowess with baubles, mutagenic growth and become immense (rip probe). I like to experiment too, but I have to say rarely I've been impressed with new cards. The last ones I fell in love with were the obvious fatal push and opt. I recently tried a couple dire fleet poisoners as additional removals that could also race and one risk factor, but I haven't been impressed by either of those. I think my next attempt will be a 12 cantrips shell (I'm currently on only 2 thought scours and 2 delve threats, but sometimes I miss the race a t2 angler gives), so we'll see
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Playing since FRF
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Jeskai Delver
Standard:
Temur Energy
EDH:
Roon of the Hidden Realm
He played a deck with 18 creatures and 22 lands and put delver in it(ur wizards). As a player, considering he even had great results with it, nothing to say: he's a genius. But, as a deckbuilder, I wouldn't even ask him a list for an fnm.
Jokes aside, in my personal experience, I found both of them great and what has been umderwhelming was thought scour: it's randomness was too punishing and the chance to fuel a turbo delve threat was not worth the strain, so I run a list with only two tasigurs (and no anglers) and the playsets of both serum and opt, cutting all the scours and feel great with it, since I still can cast an easy t3 tas (but prefer it as a mid game fatty protected with counterspells or late game card advantage engine) and have other great threats like young peezy and clique.
The card I'm trying to evaluate at the moment is risk factor, since the jump start and instant speed are both great elements but I'm not sure the 4 damage "mode" will be good enough times to force the opponent to make you draw. I tried it in a jeskai version with way more burn but got a bit disappointed, maybe as a one or two of in the grindier grixis version could be better. Any thoughts about it?
My current list:
Hey folks, not sure if any of you remember me, but I'm a YouTube content creator and Modern Grixis Delver was the first deck I ever uploaded with. I decided to come back to it with a more or less stock build. You can check out the first of 3 matches below:
I strongly believe that discard spells in the main (outside brutality that's way more than just a discard spell) are a crime against the deck, since 1) I agree with BourbonFox on the 1 drop slot and 2) discard spells are a huge tempo loss. Why don't you try and switch those two for a dispel (I run 2 in the main, but my meta does'n have many humans, so in an open one I'd rather have one) and a second terminate or ever dreadbore, which is very helpful against lilianas (overall the last hope), jaces and tron.
I also think 26 spells are not enough and I'd cut at least the clique (even an angler) for one or two more removals or cantrips.
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Playing since FRF
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Jeskai Delver
Standard:
Temur Energy
EDH:
Roon of the Hidden Realm
Why the dropping of the fast lands. I'm not seeing the end game there.
Because my build is kinda unusual, it's to maximize the efficiency of the 3-4 pushes (an higher than usual number) and to fill the graveyard for Tasigur since I run opt instead of thought scour. This improves the control matchup giving your cantrips more late game consistency, and the matchup against 3-4 cmc creature decks. The only matchup that becomes clearly worse is burn, but it's already so bad I find useless to try and fix it.
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Playing since FRF
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Jeskai Delver
Standard:
Temur Energy
EDH:
Roon of the Hidden Realm
What sort of flex slot moves do you all make when it comes to meta shifts? For example, Humans, do you all opt for more removal over counter or kept a stock list?
Depending on the meta i run 12 removals and 7 counters or 13 removals and 6 counters, usually swapping the 4th fatal push with the 2nd dispel or the 1st countersquall in the main. However the most important meta change is in the manabase and creature package: in a meta full of burn and non-vial aggro I want 8 fetches, 4 shocks, 4 basics and 3 fastlands, in a land-denial/generic meta I'm happy with 10 fetches, 5 shocks and 4 basics. As for the creatures, at the moment I run only 2 delve fatties, a Vendilion Clique and 3 Young Pyromancers (with Opt instead of Thought Scour) since the number of Fatal Pushes has gone down in favor of Bolt and, in control decks, PtE. If we go back to a 3-4 mb Pushes meta, I'd certainly go back to 4-5 delve threats and Scour as my to go cantrip.
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Playing since FRF
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Jeskai Delver
Standard:
Temur Energy
EDH:
Roon of the Hidden Realm
Does anyone play 20 lands? I was a fan of grixis ds but dropping your life total just isnt as good in such a fastmeta with so many decks that go wide. It got me thinking about delver since i already had all the cards lying around. Anyway back to my question. 19 lands hurts and i seem to be having mana trouble more than anything. I have been practicing on xmage and seem to be losing to my mana more than anything. Im running the azcanta version btw
I've always played with 19 lands and it was fine IMHO, I think that Thije is correct it depends on the number of cantrips. Personally I run 9 cantrips.
It also depends on the number of cantrips. I like running 19 lands in most lists.
What I was wondering.
Are these Dominaria cards something we want in GS Delver?
- Wizard's retort
- Wizard's lightning
- Cast Down
- Damping Sphere
And can we consider Mishra's Bauble, to fuel delve? Or is it impacting Delver of Secrets too much in a negative way (of course it can be helpful also).
Well I don't think that those cards are useful for us: wizard's spells really need a dedicated creature base in order to play them always with the reduced cost; Cast Down is just a worse version of Terminate and the Sphere might be tempting against tron or storm but I think it could reveal itself as a double-edged blade.
Also the Bauble may be good but I fear that would reduce the Delver's flip dramatically, and I rather flip a Delver than look at the top card of our opponent and then draw a card.
I think that Bauble might actually be OK, and could potentially help Delver flip if played correctly. The way I see it, T1 play Bauble + Delver. On opponents turn, crack the bauble to look at the top of your own deck, and stack your upkeep triggers according to what's on top. If it is an instant/sorcery do Delver first, otherwise draw first, and have a second chance to hit an instant/sorcery off the delver. I'm not sure what I would want to cut for it though, but it is something that could possibly work out in your favor under the right circumstances. Could be a fun little spice card that people don't see coming if you can find room for it.
I suppose the flip side of the coin is you will likely be cutting something that would normally flip the Delver and could just see a bauble instead on a blind flip. It's tough to say for sure, I'd try it out to see what happens. I do like the idea of it potentially running out a delve fattie a turn earlier.
Bauble is a barely playable card in Temur Delver since it doesn't reduce -that much- the flipping chances of delver and enables delirium for Traverse the Ulvenwald (tbh I wouldn't play traverse at all since it's a tempo-inefficient play), but I strongly believe it's not a good card in the Grixis version, since A) we can't recover it with kommand nor snappy, B) reduces the (blind)flip chances of Delver just for being an artifact by himself and C) you'd need to cut something and, even though the individual solts of the deck are quite personal, spell-type ratio of the deck is incredibly rigid: you need 13-15 creatures, 10-13 removals (including kommand), 4-7 counters and 8-10 cantrips and at least 26 instant-sorceries, so I'm not sure you can find room for 4 "useless" artifacts.
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Playing since FRF
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Jeskai Delver
Standard:
Temur Energy
EDH:
Roon of the Hidden Realm
I've decided to dive into Grixis Delver this week as my go-to tempo deck and I've loved it. Not a lot of matches under my belt, but from what I've seen and played, it seems that the deck is strong and well positionned. Some issues with Burn and Affinity so far, the first being faster sometimes, the latter flooding the board. I can't handle it even with burn spells and spot removal. I was thinking maybe Anger of the Gods could fit into my sideboard, but it's to be confirmed. Looking forward to chat with you guys!
Anger has always been a 2 of in my side and I never regretted it, along with an Izzet Staticaster and I have to say that recently I tried 2 By Force and loved it. However, affo is a good matchup. You run enough removals to wreck it and Kolaghan's Command is, of course, the best card against him in g1, but you have to sequence perfectly your spells, be careful but not too slow with your fetches and play more or less like if you were playing against infect, with removals in his eot instead of his first main/combat. If you know the matchup you are really favoured, but in other case, you're under a train. You have to learn perfectly how to solve each card, what to counter, what to destroy, when to develop your board, so, play a lot of matches, tune your sideboard and learn as much as you can. Like you need to do against anyone with grixis delver.
I've only brought it to one local tournament so far, which was on Monday night. I went 3-1 beating GB Elves, WG CoCo, RWG Burn, and I lost to Goblins. The games against the Goblins player were close, brought him to 3 games. I made a couple poor decisions that ended up costing me the game. I could have cast Collective Brutality to drain him bringing me to 6 life, and look at his hand taking his Goblin Grenade (2 cards in hand at the time), but I chose to play a threat instead since his board was clear, and he then drew a creature he could cast and grenaded me for game 3. Lesson learned. I also bolted a Goblin Guide then tried to block with tokens when he had a legion loyalist out, not being familiar enough with the card while playing a token deck. All in all, I think I could have played better against the Goblins match and probably 4-0ed the night, but that's magic.
Anyways, as I said above, mostly just looking for feedback on the list. First priority for me is to get the other 3 Scalding Tarns that I need to round out the lands. As for working with what I have, I want to add in a basic mountain, as there were many times that I wished I could have fetched a mountain instead of having to shock (including against the Goblin player.) Otherwise I don't think there was too much I didn't like about the list. Maybe missed having a Kalitas somewhere in the 75 like I normally would in Jund, but not sure if I would want it main or in the board, or what I would cut to make it happen. Any advice on other cards that might make me stumble in the future would be helpful.
The list isi quite classic and seems good. I'd swap a tasigur for a 3rd pyromancer or a vendilion clique, 2 remands for dispel (more situational but when it's good it's WAY better than remand) and the brutality for a dreadbore. In the side I'd cut the quarters for a second brutality and a disdaiful stroke. For the, mana base I'd cut a fastland for a mountain, maybe a spirebluff.
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Playing since FRF
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Jeskai Delver
Standard:
Temur Energy
EDH:
Roon of the Hidden Realm
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It depends a lot on the build. Mine is very grindy (imagine a midrange deck that plays everything at instant speed and replaces discard with counterspells), but others are more shadow-like. The main difference between delver and gds is that you always have to try and get cheap damage turn by turn while gds relies on few massive life swings.
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Jeskai Delver
Standard:
Temur Energy
EDH:
Roon of the Hidden Realm
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Jeskai Delver
Standard:
Temur Energy
EDH:
Roon of the Hidden Realm
I'm testing a 2-2 split between the two pyromancers and I feel great with it. I also loved two fiery islet replacing the fast lands I used to run. I'm also a fan of bedevil as a 1 of to replace dreadbore. It's heavy on the mana base but way better than dreadbore. For the side, I'm loving plague engineer and trying out one flusterstorm, which has performed decently but didn't shine. I don't like the new ashiok because I'm super light on delve threats (only one tasigur) and it feels too slow against graveyard decks, especially hoogakvine, which is still nearly unbeatable if it has a decent-good start.
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Jeskai Delver
Standard:
Temur Energy
EDH:
Roon of the Hidden Realm
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Jeskai Delver
Standard:
Temur Energy
EDH:
Roon of the Hidden Realm
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Jeskai Delver
Standard:
Temur Energy
EDH:
Roon of the Hidden Realm
I started with UR back in 2015 and slowly upgraded it with kolaghan's command, snapcasters and the mana base, but it's a pretty decent starting point. Also, the fetchless mana base from UR storm is super fine for the deck and very cheap. I'd go for a playset of young pyromancers and abbots of kheral keep for a budget creature shell and then replace the abbots with snapcasters, one pyro with a vendilion clique and then add the delve threats. While you are UR, I'd go with roast and harvest pyre as "hard" removals and then of course replace them with 2 pushes and 2 terminates. Last thing I'm sure about, don't fall in either of the cryptic or discard temptation. They are both wrong choices (I couldn't just see a couple of seizes in the side, but that's all). Good luck!
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Jeskai Delver
Standard:
Temur Energy
EDH:
Roon of the Hidden Realm
I've tested it for a while. It seemed cool but often too clunky and I ended up cutting it. As for the discard spells, they don't fit our game plan at all since we want to be tempo/draw go. If you want to go tap out and then be synergistic with discard, delver becomes bad and you should play mardu pyro instead. Of course this is just my opinion, but I've not been greatly impressed by it.
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Jeskai Delver
Standard:
Temur Energy
EDH:
Roon of the Hidden Realm
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Jeskai Delver
Standard:
Temur Energy
EDH:
Roon of the Hidden Realm
Jokes aside, in my personal experience, I found both of them great and what has been umderwhelming was thought scour: it's randomness was too punishing and the chance to fuel a turbo delve threat was not worth the strain, so I run a list with only two tasigurs (and no anglers) and the playsets of both serum and opt, cutting all the scours and feel great with it, since I still can cast an easy t3 tas (but prefer it as a mid game fatty protected with counterspells or late game card advantage engine) and have other great threats like young peezy and clique.
The card I'm trying to evaluate at the moment is risk factor, since the jump start and instant speed are both great elements but I'm not sure the 4 damage "mode" will be good enough times to force the opponent to make you draw. I tried it in a jeskai version with way more burn but got a bit disappointed, maybe as a one or two of in the grindier grixis version could be better. Any thoughts about it?
My current list:
4 snapcaster mage
3 young pyromancer
1 vendilion clique
2 tasigur, the golden fang
4 scalding tarn
4 polluted delta
2 bloodstained mire
2 steam vents
2 watery grave
1 blood crypt
2 island
1 mountain
1 swamp
4 opt
2 dispel
2 spell snare
3 mana leak
4 lightning bolt
3 fatal push
2 terminate
1 dreadbore
2 kolaghan's command
1 engineered explosives
2 nihil spellbomb
2 by force
1 ceremonious rejection
2 disdainful stroke
2 collective brutality
1 countersquall
1 dreadbore
2 anger of the gods
1 izzet staticaster
And my possible changes would be -1 dispel and -1 tasigur for +2 risk factor. Any thoughts?
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Jeskai Delver
Standard:
Temur Energy
EDH:
Roon of the Hidden Realm
I strongly believe that discard spells in the main (outside brutality that's way more than just a discard spell) are a crime against the deck, since 1) I agree with BourbonFox on the 1 drop slot and 2) discard spells are a huge tempo loss. Why don't you try and switch those two for a dispel (I run 2 in the main, but my meta does'n have many humans, so in an open one I'd rather have one) and a second terminate or ever dreadbore, which is very helpful against lilianas (overall the last hope), jaces and tron.
I also think 26 spells are not enough and I'd cut at least the clique (even an angler) for one or two more removals or cantrips.
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Jeskai Delver
Standard:
Temur Energy
EDH:
Roon of the Hidden Realm
Because my build is kinda unusual, it's to maximize the efficiency of the 3-4 pushes (an higher than usual number) and to fill the graveyard for Tasigur since I run opt instead of thought scour. This improves the control matchup giving your cantrips more late game consistency, and the matchup against 3-4 cmc creature decks. The only matchup that becomes clearly worse is burn, but it's already so bad I find useless to try and fix it.
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Jeskai Delver
Standard:
Temur Energy
EDH:
Roon of the Hidden Realm
Depending on the meta i run 12 removals and 7 counters or 13 removals and 6 counters, usually swapping the 4th fatal push with the 2nd dispel or the 1st countersquall in the main. However the most important meta change is in the manabase and creature package: in a meta full of burn and non-vial aggro I want 8 fetches, 4 shocks, 4 basics and 3 fastlands, in a land-denial/generic meta I'm happy with 10 fetches, 5 shocks and 4 basics. As for the creatures, at the moment I run only 2 delve fatties, a Vendilion Clique and 3 Young Pyromancers (with Opt instead of Thought Scour) since the number of Fatal Pushes has gone down in favor of Bolt and, in control decks, PtE. If we go back to a 3-4 mb Pushes meta, I'd certainly go back to 4-5 delve threats and Scour as my to go cantrip.
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Jeskai Delver
Standard:
Temur Energy
EDH:
Roon of the Hidden Realm
Bauble is a barely playable card in Temur Delver since it doesn't reduce -that much- the flipping chances of delver and enables delirium for Traverse the Ulvenwald (tbh I wouldn't play traverse at all since it's a tempo-inefficient play), but I strongly believe it's not a good card in the Grixis version, since A) we can't recover it with kommand nor snappy, B) reduces the (blind)flip chances of Delver just for being an artifact by himself and C) you'd need to cut something and, even though the individual solts of the deck are quite personal, spell-type ratio of the deck is incredibly rigid: you need 13-15 creatures, 10-13 removals (including kommand), 4-7 counters and 8-10 cantrips and at least 26 instant-sorceries, so I'm not sure you can find room for 4 "useless" artifacts.
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Jeskai Delver
Standard:
Temur Energy
EDH:
Roon of the Hidden Realm
Anger has always been a 2 of in my side and I never regretted it, along with an Izzet Staticaster and I have to say that recently I tried 2 By Force and loved it. However, affo is a good matchup. You run enough removals to wreck it and Kolaghan's Command is, of course, the best card against him in g1, but you have to sequence perfectly your spells, be careful but not too slow with your fetches and play more or less like if you were playing against infect, with removals in his eot instead of his first main/combat. If you know the matchup you are really favoured, but in other case, you're under a train. You have to learn perfectly how to solve each card, what to counter, what to destroy, when to develop your board, so, play a lot of matches, tune your sideboard and learn as much as you can. Like you need to do against anyone with grixis delver.
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Jeskai Delver
Standard:
Temur Energy
EDH:
Roon of the Hidden Realm
The list isi quite classic and seems good. I'd swap a tasigur for a 3rd pyromancer or a vendilion clique, 2 remands for dispel (more situational but when it's good it's WAY better than remand) and the brutality for a dreadbore. In the side I'd cut the quarters for a second brutality and a disdaiful stroke. For the, mana base I'd cut a fastland for a mountain, maybe a spirebluff.
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Jeskai Delver
Standard:
Temur Energy
EDH:
Roon of the Hidden Realm