No, the value of older cards isn't from demand as much as it is from supply issues and market scalping. A lot of it is mind games these days because of the internet, but there aren't a lot of cards floating around from the great Recession years as people tend to think, which is why you have things like Devoted Druid costing an arm and a leg for a common when people suddenly found synergy with Vizier of Remedies. Even older cards in legacy are not the best examples because those go from massive stockpiles like the Urza's Saga and Ice Age commons to things on the RL like the dual lands. You have to look at the times those sets came out and make a judgement based on the number of cards one can see up for sale.
Let me put it this way, if they reprinted all the Lorwyn Elwynn filter lands those prices would drop way harder than the zendikar fetches, which actually need a lot more reprints and in lower MSRP products than modern masters 2017.
I still don't see how people are moving away from paper magic...
As for Devoted Druid... I'll have to look in my boxes of green stuff (I should have a playset of them)... but seriously, some commons do jump in value because the set was out of print for years and players already discarded most of those commons as bulk junk. If card shops didn't buy back the bulk junk, these cards were given away or discarded in trash. I remember in 2001ish, that I had a giant box of bulk junk that I'd tossed away because I didn't have any room, only to find out later that some of the cards were Priest of Titania...
After leaning from my mistake with the priest, well, I'm not discarding any bulk magic cards.
The focus on tournament play over what the game was originally for is becoming a major issue in itself, though, and this ties into the entire argument about card legality. Wizards has not been doing a good job keeping up with the times on technology and in regards to that, more and more players are moving away from paper games for casual play to digital ones like Hearthstone.
Sorry but I have a hard time in believing this because the value of the older cards seemed to suggest that people want paper over digital.
The problem with digital magic is that the cards and packs are almost the same cost as paper magic. In Pokemon the booster packs has a digital link. I strongly think if magic wants to push the digital game they should include a digital link to the booster pack. I think I'll play digital magic.
This is making it so the only thing holding anything together in paper magic at the LGS level is tournament magic because of a complete lack of promoting non-competitive play, or at least less competitive play than what people are starting to expect and prepare for.
Im not sure. A bata black lotus is 12,000 dollars. Somebody is buying/selling for some reason.
Eventually, it wont even matter if they print commander or not because there wont be any easy way for casual players to play paper magic at a casual level. If the only known organized play happens at FNM or scheduled tournaments, without any kind of support to just "bring your deck and have fun" style events, it will kill paper casual.
I think there is a healthy/strong casual magic, mostly are played on the kitchen table, and we don't hear about them. There has to be because magic wouldn't be selling booster packs in walmart/target/walgreens/etc.
Now that you mention it, a lot of people do feel that Conspiracy II was a mistake set because of all the draft specific cards it had. That alone makes that set not age very well, since most people who want reprints like Birds of Paradise probably don't draft a whole lot.
I'm not sure about that, some of the players love the draft specific cards because they can incorporate them into cube. And Archdemon of Paliano is a million times better than the 500 dollar Juzám Djinn... I would also believe Archdemon could make a decent replacement for Abyssal Persecutor in Legacy's Gate. Sure competitive legacy can say the card sucks, but a 5/4 flier with 4 mana and no drawbacks is not bad. And you can get the playset for a dollar is a good buy too.
Seriously, I prefer more sets like conspiracy over unglued (if Wizards done anything that was wrong it was making Unglued with the intent of pushing causal play and following it with a harder to play Unhinged set... I really hate that 1/2 crap!).
I really believe that Modern should had started with M10 and up. M10 because that's when wizards modernize the basic sets. I also believe it was around M10 when wizards announced the Modern format.
...which would mean that at the time of creation, Modern would be one set larger than Standard and would take two years to even get as large as the 4-year Extended format. Terrible idea.
Maybe wizards should announced the modern format about 6 month's before M10 rotates out of standard...
I'm kind of surprised the subtle saltiness that is building up in the mtg community as of late has become so prolific even outside this forum. There has been a number of people I've talked with who don't even come to this forum that seem to share the same dislike of masters sets and the way wizards is handling reprints. Normally this stuff is kind of contained to the internet.
I'm not sure of the saltiness that you are referring to. The master sets are intended to please a good number of players. Those that causally play the game (they may buy a few boosters), tournament players looking for a cheaper cost or an alternative pimp (they are the ones that buy boxes and/or buy playsets of desired cards), and collectors looking to add another set for their collection (they may buy boxes, but these guys will sit around the draft table and try to pick up cards needed for the set or wheel and deal cards - the object is to complete a collection without paying more than the cost of the collection).
Oh I'm aware of Chronicles, I lived through it. The difference is the size of the player base and the demand for the cards in question. It would be very hard for them to repeat Chronicles again, as in they'd have to deliberately try to do it rather than accidently do an over printing of a card.
Sure. I also believe the ban/restriction of sol ring could be a factor on the reduction of the price of Carrion Ants. And lets not forget that Legends had a packaging error that made even uncommon hard to find.
But we have to understand that Magic was very new and in 1994 a good number of CCG's appeared from the woodwork and in late 1995 was the CCG crash. Everybody including Wizards of the Coast was worried. I also believe the CCG crash forced wizards to make Urzas a power format, because the intent was to bring back the original fans, but they didn't realized that Tempest was a major success. Please note that back in those days it took 2 years to make a block.
Yes I do agree it would be hard for them to repeat the same mistake. Also, Magic is established to the point that fathers and teaching their sons in playing the game. Back in 1995, the game was only 2 years old. It was assumed that the game was like a trend - beanie babies - and it was assumed that the game was not going to be around for 10 years. And the CCG crash seemed to accelerate the fear.
If it was not for the reserved list. I think markrosewater would have probably have tried to use them in standard. I think him designing the shock-lands was his method of trying to get duals back in the game. Development though thinks the ABU dual lands are too strong most the time for standard.
I don't think so. Once Onslaught introduced fetchlands the power of dual lands escalated.
I also believe it was Mark that pushed the banning of dual's in extended so players could start playing with shocklands.... Please note that he made the shocklands.
@Soldier You can't compare reserved list antiquing to modern magic. The idea is that chase cards should hold value, but modern is a complete and utter disaster on the second hand market due to the lack of proper support and printings. Wizards created a format and then let it rot while players clamoured to it, resulting in unnaturally high prices on all the chase cards in the card pool.
Actually, wizards mistake with the modern format started with extended and the overstayed dual land policy. Wizards banned duals from extended and extended players moved to type 1.5. Those players took a discarded format and finally broke it, to the point where wizards was forced to remodel Type 1 and Type 1.5 (as Vintage and Legacy).
But what happen after was a new demand for older cards that were unused in type 1, and the card prices jumped. The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale jumped from 30 dollars to almost 500 dollars over night.
Because of the sudden explosion of card prices in Legacy, players were demanding for another eternal format that wasn't plagued with the reserve list policy. Wizards quickly answered with modern. There was already two mistakes upon creation. The first mistake was basing the new format on the new card face (which is why the ban list is long). The second mistake was starting the Modern format when Key cards were already out of print.
I really believe that Modern should had started with M10 and up. M10 because that's when wizards modernize the basic sets. I also believe it was around M10 when wizards announced the Modern format.
Unless they are intent on self sabotage, there is no way Wizards ever intended 100 usd Tarmogoyfs, Liliana of the Veil, etc. They did this unintentionally by refusing to print the cards sufficiently and pumping the tournament scene, increasing the demand on the cards further.
Well, just remember that goyf was already out of print when Modern was created.
If you really want to understand why these cards have a limited reprint run... you should look into the Carrion Ants story.
-------------------------
Carrion Ants Story:
The Reserved List was created in 1995/96, after the printing of 4E and Chronicles. Some of the cards included in those sets had been highly-sought-after cards in black border form; to cite the most notorious example, at one time, the second highest value rare from Legends (behind Mirror Universe) was Carrion Ants; it went for about $55. The price crashed after Carrion Ants was printed at uncommon in 4E.
And yet, if people stopped buying Masters sets, WotC's takeaway would be that the demand for those reprints just isn't there.
Yeah, I do agree with you on this.
WotC has been much more generous with reprints in this past year and a half compared to the years prior. Basically every card worth more than $50 that they could reprint has shown up in either a Eternal Masters, Conspiracy 2, Modern Masters 3, or as a Masterpiece. Sure, some of these don't do much to affect the prices, but it does make those cards more available, and if they can continue to reprint in large amounts and not have the prices fall too far, they could make the case of abolishing the Reserved List and actually reprint the rest of it too.
I do like how wizards found ways to add old cards to the game.
Sadly wizards is NOT going to abolish the reserve list because the collectible value of most of those cards are established as high value. Also, I really believe wizard thinks legacy would be a better format if the dual's were shocklands. And we all know that would never happen because there are too many players willing to pay 300 dollars for an Underground Sea than 15 dollars for a Watery Grave.
@Colt47
I see where you are coming from. True most players don't want to pay 50 dollars for Scalding Tarn, but if you look at magic tournament is the eyes of gambling, you'll understand people will pay 50 dollars for a better card especially when the card helps the deck to be consistent. And players do know this and will not trade/sell their Scalding Tarn for anything less. For example, if you opened a booster pack with Scalding Tarn, would you trade it for a Harbinger of Night? Both cards are rare and the Harbinger of Night is on the reprint policy... No you won't, even if you found the booster pack in the middle of an empty parking lot, you would not trade the Scalding Tarn for anything less.
I've been playing the game since 1996, and I do remember the kid sitting at table boasting about his beta black lotus. The card was valued at 500 dollars back then.
Sorry but I don't understand the topic. Are you upset with some of the card prices dropping? I think a lot has to do with demand. Sinkhole is awesome but there is a small number of decks that play sinkhole, therefore the demand is not high. Before the reprinting of Sinkhole, if you wanted a black border you are looking at alpha/beta and those print runs are small therefore the price is tailored to those that are willing to part the card.
I still don't see how people are moving away from paper magic...
As for Devoted Druid... I'll have to look in my boxes of green stuff (I should have a playset of them)... but seriously, some commons do jump in value because the set was out of print for years and players already discarded most of those commons as bulk junk. If card shops didn't buy back the bulk junk, these cards were given away or discarded in trash. I remember in 2001ish, that I had a giant box of bulk junk that I'd tossed away because I didn't have any room, only to find out later that some of the cards were Priest of Titania...
After leaning from my mistake with the priest, well, I'm not discarding any bulk magic cards.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Sorry but I have a hard time in believing this because the value of the older cards seemed to suggest that people want paper over digital.
The problem with digital magic is that the cards and packs are almost the same cost as paper magic. In Pokemon the booster packs has a digital link. I strongly think if magic wants to push the digital game they should include a digital link to the booster pack. I think I'll play digital magic.
Im not sure. A bata black lotus is 12,000 dollars. Somebody is buying/selling for some reason.
I think there is a healthy/strong casual magic, mostly are played on the kitchen table, and we don't hear about them. There has to be because magic wouldn't be selling booster packs in walmart/target/walgreens/etc.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
I'm not sure about that, some of the players love the draft specific cards because they can incorporate them into cube. And Archdemon of Paliano is a million times better than the 500 dollar Juzám Djinn... I would also believe Archdemon could make a decent replacement for Abyssal Persecutor in Legacy's Gate. Sure competitive legacy can say the card sucks, but a 5/4 flier with 4 mana and no drawbacks is not bad. And you can get the playset for a dollar is a good buy too.
Seriously, I prefer more sets like conspiracy over unglued (if Wizards done anything that was wrong it was making Unglued with the intent of pushing causal play and following it with a harder to play Unhinged set... I really hate that 1/2 crap!).
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Maybe wizards should announced the modern format about 6 month's before M10 rotates out of standard...
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
I'm not sure of the saltiness that you are referring to. The master sets are intended to please a good number of players. Those that causally play the game (they may buy a few boosters), tournament players looking for a cheaper cost or an alternative pimp (they are the ones that buy boxes and/or buy playsets of desired cards), and collectors looking to add another set for their collection (they may buy boxes, but these guys will sit around the draft table and try to pick up cards needed for the set or wheel and deal cards - the object is to complete a collection without paying more than the cost of the collection).
I think the master sets are ok.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Sure. I also believe the ban/restriction of sol ring could be a factor on the reduction of the price of Carrion Ants. And lets not forget that Legends had a packaging error that made even uncommon hard to find.
But we have to understand that Magic was very new and in 1994 a good number of CCG's appeared from the woodwork and in late 1995 was the CCG crash. Everybody including Wizards of the Coast was worried. I also believe the CCG crash forced wizards to make Urzas a power format, because the intent was to bring back the original fans, but they didn't realized that Tempest was a major success. Please note that back in those days it took 2 years to make a block.
Yes I do agree it would be hard for them to repeat the same mistake. Also, Magic is established to the point that fathers and teaching their sons in playing the game. Back in 1995, the game was only 2 years old. It was assumed that the game was like a trend - beanie babies - and it was assumed that the game was not going to be around for 10 years. And the CCG crash seemed to accelerate the fear.
I don't think so. Once Onslaught introduced fetchlands the power of dual lands escalated.
I also believe it was Mark that pushed the banning of dual's in extended so players could start playing with shocklands.... Please note that he made the shocklands.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Actually, wizards mistake with the modern format started with extended and the overstayed dual land policy. Wizards banned duals from extended and extended players moved to type 1.5. Those players took a discarded format and finally broke it, to the point where wizards was forced to remodel Type 1 and Type 1.5 (as Vintage and Legacy).
But what happen after was a new demand for older cards that were unused in type 1, and the card prices jumped. The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale jumped from 30 dollars to almost 500 dollars over night.
Because of the sudden explosion of card prices in Legacy, players were demanding for another eternal format that wasn't plagued with the reserve list policy. Wizards quickly answered with modern. There was already two mistakes upon creation. The first mistake was basing the new format on the new card face (which is why the ban list is long). The second mistake was starting the Modern format when Key cards were already out of print.
I really believe that Modern should had started with M10 and up. M10 because that's when wizards modernize the basic sets. I also believe it was around M10 when wizards announced the Modern format.
Well, just remember that goyf was already out of print when Modern was created.
If you really want to understand why these cards have a limited reprint run... you should look into the Carrion Ants story.
-------------------------
Carrion Ants Story:
The Reserved List was created in 1995/96, after the printing of 4E and Chronicles. Some of the cards included in those sets had been highly-sought-after cards in black border form; to cite the most notorious example, at one time, the second highest value rare from Legends (behind Mirror Universe) was Carrion Ants; it went for about $55. The price crashed after Carrion Ants was printed at uncommon in 4E.
-------------------------
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Yeah, I do agree with you on this.
I do like how wizards found ways to add old cards to the game.
Sadly wizards is NOT going to abolish the reserve list because the collectible value of most of those cards are established as high value. Also, I really believe wizard thinks legacy would be a better format if the dual's were shocklands. And we all know that would never happen because there are too many players willing to pay 300 dollars for an Underground Sea than 15 dollars for a Watery Grave.
@Colt47
I see where you are coming from. True most players don't want to pay 50 dollars for Scalding Tarn, but if you look at magic tournament is the eyes of gambling, you'll understand people will pay 50 dollars for a better card especially when the card helps the deck to be consistent. And players do know this and will not trade/sell their Scalding Tarn for anything less. For example, if you opened a booster pack with Scalding Tarn, would you trade it for a Harbinger of Night? Both cards are rare and the Harbinger of Night is on the reprint policy... No you won't, even if you found the booster pack in the middle of an empty parking lot, you would not trade the Scalding Tarn for anything less.
I've been playing the game since 1996, and I do remember the kid sitting at table boasting about his beta black lotus. The card was valued at 500 dollars back then.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!