My matches were against:
2-0 vs. Rock (on Draw)
2-0 vs. UW Control (on Draw)
2-0 vs. Izzet Phoenix (on Play)
2-1 vs. 5 color DS aggro (on Play)
2-1 vs. Tron (on Play)
I would like to think I got a solid representation with these decks. The only non-tier one deck is the DS one, and its still very powerful, just not as played as other versions. Thing in the Ice won me two games, once vs. Izzet Phoenix ironically when I managed to flip a Thing to bounce their one blocker, and then again vs. Tron, just helping me finish out the game and buy back a Snap. I boarded them out vs. UW Control.
The 4 Remands were great for me. Bought me a lot of time. I had been running more Leaks, but now that I have Thing in the Ice I want more card draw in the deck. I also reversed the Serum / Opt count as a result. Garruk was sweet in the one game I managed to play him (vs. Rock) as he killed a key Ooze on the other side. I have real questions about Tormod's Crypt, and Creeping Corrosion.
The other all star was Cindervine. My goodness that card is sweet. It can act as random artifact or enchantment removal, while also bumping up Goyf. But where it really shines is getting chip damage vs. UW Control, being a major issue for Izzet Phoenix (Although my opponenet managed to keep it off the board), and obviously nutty vs. spell based decks like Storm or even the new Whir Prison decks.
Anyways, the deck would obviously need more testing to see if Thing in the Ice is where we want to be, but it certainly performed better for me than it has the last number of times I've tried to play it. Some of that is varience obviously, how much, I'm not sure.
Sweet, thanks for the breakdown. Yeah, Eternal Command is really challenging. I was getting crushed on MTGO competitive for a while, then turned a corner with the deck. Now I'm coming back to it and seeing if I can figure out a list that makes sense. I think I would prefer three Scooze MB and no Flayer in the current meta, but that might not be correct.
Do you think Spreading Seas is the way to go? I assume its to attack Tron primarily, but your running Trophy + Extraction for that, plus you have the ceremonious rejections. You don't need the seas for UW lands because of fatal push. It's not helpful against Titan because they just bounce their lands. I like it against Burn, but if we up the number of Brutality and either add more Scooze/Kalitis we should be okay there.
I would probably look at moving away from that number of Spreading Seas and Extractions. Black gives us access to Nihil Spellbomb, and we have Scooze and Kalitis to help vs. Phoenix / Dredge. I do love the Extraction + Trophy combination. Yeah, I think you might be better served cutting the three seas and one of the Extractions. If you replace the Flayers with Scavenging Ooze in the main that really frees you up in terms of the number of Extractions you need in the board. That's four extra SB slots.
Just thinking out loud here:) I'm not expert on the deck. One thing I can't stand is the 3/2 Serum Vision - Opt split. I always want to cut the Opts for SB cards. I think I'd rather just go 4 serum visions. I also have really liked Mana Leak in some numbers.
Also, what are people's thoughts on MB Huntmaster of the Fells vs. SB? I love that card, and had been going lighter on the combo, and instead running 2 Cryptic and 2 MB Huntmaster, with only two MB Witness. That might not be the best configuration although I managed a 5-0 in competitive with it:)
Interesting comments on Incubation. I'll test it, but those numbers aren't what I'd hoped for. I will say that it's unlikely that I would ever be casting the Incubation side of the spell early unless I'm playing something non-interactive so that might change the numbers a bit? Maybe we use our serum visions to keep creatures in our deck, and just focus on removal and counter magic early, and then when we are ready to turn the corner we can cast Incubation, or use the removal side.
Having a hard answer to either DS, Gurmag or Wurmcoil Engines - and now Drakes - could be a massive boon. On the flip side, maybe going more on the vapor snag plan is the correct choice.
What about Thrash//Threat? Fight cards are risky, but honestly I'd prefer it to Electrolize which is borderline bad right now.
I'm still not sure what the best SB approach is to Tron. In practice I've liked Fulminator Mage because you can buy it back, but its kind of slow. I was thinking again of an old favorite, Crumble to Dust. That thing is fantastic, but again probably to slow? Do you guys board in land hate vs. Cavern of Souls? If so, what do you typically cut? Typically were talking Humans or Spirits so that means were cutting Remand? Clique? Cryptic? If we do that then we defeat the purpose of adding in land hate. I've typically just boarded out the remands (unless I want to deal with CC) and let them resolve their creatures.
Someone was mentioning that red has the better SB options right now. I'm not sure that's the case. Anger is better than Damnation, but I see a lot of rock decks running Languish, which is much better than Anger vs. Spirits, but obviously much worse vs. something like Dredge.
I've been fiddling around with Sultai Command because I like its GY hate - which in my view is the most important tool you can have right now. Temur just lacks on the GY hate unless you have access to some number of Surgical Extraction. Speaking of which, I think both versions need to be playing 2-3 md oozes right now.
The meta has shifted yet again and gotten even faster. Is our deck playable? Does Sultai have the pieces to beat KCI or the new Vengevine list? Anyone having any success with it (either Sultai or Temer)?
I'd love to see some udated lists with some of the new cards that have been printed:
Cast Down - do we make room for this in Sultai?
Alpine Moon - how are folks finding this vs. Tron? I don't mind it, but its certainly not enough on its own.
It feels like Temer just doesn't have enough removal right now, whereas Sultai almost has to much! On the flip side Temer is better vs. Tron and has Anger. With the need for GY hate it also feels like the ability to play Nihil Spellbomb makes Sultia a little better right now.
It could be that my struggles with Eternall Commmand are due to reps and mulliganing (as Rayo points out). It feels rare that I have a nice combination of lands, creatures, and interaction off the hop.
Those of you playing both versions of the deck currently, it would be great to see your current lists.
Agree 100%. Blood is just to punishing on our own manabase. I think 2-3 of these will greatly improve a number of matchups. Blood Moon is great because it basically protects itself because it hoses an entire manabase, but it also ruins us.
I'm playing one Abrade in the main as a fifth bolt and keeping the two Grudge in the SB for now.
I don't have a local meta - I can't make it to the LGS very often - and I play almost exclusively online, so that's my 'meta'. I think spell snare is much better than spell pierce online. I'm running two in the main and one in the board. It helps in mage battles, helps against burn, and is good against so many creatures.
If someone has the time, I would really appreciate someone helping me out with how to SB with this deck (temur or sultai). I don't need a deck by deck breakdown, but maybe a sense of what comes out vs. various archetypes. I often find I'm just removing a smattering of this, one of those, one of these, but no real purpose behind my choices. Maybe just take your sideboard nad say, against control I'd take out this, and I'd bring in this (Huntmaster as an example).
I've been playing tempo spirits (vial) online for over a year and am quite good with the deck. I picked it up because it was cheep and I was just starting out online and didn't want to put money in. I've grinded my way to all the pieces I need for temur or sultia command. However, spirits is very very different from this deck and I've struggled off the hop - although just managed a 4-1 which made me very happy!
Lastly, I'm running two Huntmaster in the board. I notice that their are a number of good four drop creatures we can consider:
Huntmaster - I really like my experience with him so far
Pia and Kiran Nalaar - I see the benefit of this guy as well (affinity? what else?)
Thrun - a long time favorite -> seems amazing vs. control
Collossos -> obvious house vs. DS and Jund, what else?
Glenn Elendra - combo/control?
Never mind, Damping Sphere is a bit of a nombo with the deck.
Without having Collective Brutality - obviously an important card - would you run Feed the Clan's in the SB or something more versatile like some combination of extra Spell Pierce / Dispel / Negate?
I have to agree with 2imu on Golgari Charm - such a strong catch all card. I like the list, and I had been wondering about Bauble vs. Spellbomb, as well as Search. Without extra ways to dump artifacts into the GY getting delirium can be a challenge. I think I'll give the list a go, with a slightly different SB configuration. I don't have EE online.
The difficult thing about Remand is that its good on the play, and it buys time against certain decks, but its borderline bad on the draw. I like it, drawing cards is fun, but finding the correct configuration is key. Grindy decks are so skill intensive and have so many decisions I think each card needs to be considered extra carefully. I can imagine that one or two changes could make a big difference in a deck like this. Which is part of what makes it fun I guess:)
I've thrown together a bant list as well - anyone think Dromoka's command is a useful include? Seems like it would be great against other big creatures as long as you have Goyf out, and helps deal with blood moon and rip.
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@2imu - as a taxes player who likes vials have you ever given Spirit Taxes a run? I run it to pretty good success online - basic deck idea is using Arbiter + Thalia alongside the normal W/U spirit pack of Mausoleum Wanderer, Rattlechains, Selfless Spirit, Phantasmal Image, Captain, and Spell Queller. Going Captain + image on Turn three (using vial) is pretty nuts, and few things are a fun as firing an Arbiter into the field in response to a tron player cracking a map.
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Yeah its been an ugly start online, but somehow I still am enjoying the deck:) All the games are tight, I'm just coming out down 2-1 pretty often. Feels like things need to go just right for me to win.
I don't have the Brutality online because its like 30+ tix, but I have it in paper. I was playing a Sultai version months ago and in my brew I had Tireless Tracker for extra card draw - was fun but not the best synergy with a 20-21 land deck. I also really like the one mana counter if you have a creature that's four or greater. Stick an early goyf and your laughing.
It's a fun deck, but there are so many decisions that I think it's probably very skill intensive. The more decisions you have the more opportunities to make mistakes. I think the Clique is critical - having some type of flyer support for the odd spell queller or oppositing kitesail. I also think Grim Flayer could be good as you say - although I don't find that I get to delirium that often because of how few creatures we run.
Funny thing about Bontu, I was playing big mana and was just trading removal for creatures. I went damnation, bontu, then snap bontu, but could never find a creature to back up my wraths and the bontu ended up screwing me because I couldn't untap. Still, with Vial I think its a decent option. I wonder if the four mana -/3/3 wrath that lets us cast a card for free from our hand would be good? lets us play around our own Gofys and maybe cast something on top of it?
I think Golgari Charm is just so versatile. It can ruin elves, and lingering souls without cyptic is rough. I think its a good card.
Based on my previous play, and my recent run, I do think that the temer version is probably better in the online meta, just because of your ability to finish off decks with bolt that punish themselves with fast starts.
Still interested to see how it goes over time.
Thanks for the comment, I'll check back in occasionally with an update - and will lurk to see if anyone else is playing the deck online to any success.
Hey, I'm relatively new to the deck - I don't have scalding tarns so I'm trying the Sultai version for now. Has anyone played it much online? What does your sideboard look like? The meta online is blazing fast right now. I played a couple leagues with my other deck (spirit taxes) and played 3 burns, 3 hollow one, elves, add nauseum, etc.
Here's my list (based off of a couple of the lists on this site - thanks:)
1 Damnation
1 Bontu's Last Reckoning
1 Spell Pierce
1 Negate
3 Spreading Seas
3 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Decay
1 Ashiok
1 Golgari Charm
1 ooze
I need a clique or two, and I'm just testing out Hostage Taker for fun - I agree that Flayer is probably the better option - still, Hostage Taker won me a game last night vs. Amulet Titan (I stole a Titan, and managed to tap down with Cryptic the following turn to get my Titan and Goyf through for the win). The mainboard spell pierce is mostly just based on what I've read here. I was using Spell Snare but found it lacking online. I don't think the sultai version is overly worried about opposing two drop creatures. I'd rather have a way to protect my creatures or ambush a combo deck or super fast deck like Hollow One.
Anyways, thoughts on SB, and what our best configuration would be for more competitive scenes (such as online or at a GP) would be appreciated. What's our worst matchups?
Cheers
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4 Lightning Bolt
3 Opt
2 Serum Visions
2 Spell Snare
1 Traverse the Ulvenwald
1 Flameslash
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Remand
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Thing in the Ice
1 Izzet Charm
1 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Cryptic Command
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Breeding Pool
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
2 Spirebluff Canal
1 Flooded Grove
4 Mister Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Abrade
2 Cindervine
2 Anger of the Gods
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
My matches were against:
2-0 vs. Rock (on Draw)
2-0 vs. UW Control (on Draw)
2-0 vs. Izzet Phoenix (on Play)
2-1 vs. 5 color DS aggro (on Play)
2-1 vs. Tron (on Play)
I would like to think I got a solid representation with these decks. The only non-tier one deck is the DS one, and its still very powerful, just not as played as other versions. Thing in the Ice won me two games, once vs. Izzet Phoenix ironically when I managed to flip a Thing to bounce their one blocker, and then again vs. Tron, just helping me finish out the game and buy back a Snap. I boarded them out vs. UW Control.
The 4 Remands were great for me. Bought me a lot of time. I had been running more Leaks, but now that I have Thing in the Ice I want more card draw in the deck. I also reversed the Serum / Opt count as a result. Garruk was sweet in the one game I managed to play him (vs. Rock) as he killed a key Ooze on the other side. I have real questions about Tormod's Crypt, and Creeping Corrosion.
The other all star was Cindervine. My goodness that card is sweet. It can act as random artifact or enchantment removal, while also bumping up Goyf. But where it really shines is getting chip damage vs. UW Control, being a major issue for Izzet Phoenix (Although my opponenet managed to keep it off the board), and obviously nutty vs. spell based decks like Storm or even the new Whir Prison decks.
Anyways, the deck would obviously need more testing to see if Thing in the Ice is where we want to be, but it certainly performed better for me than it has the last number of times I've tried to play it. Some of that is varience obviously, how much, I'm not sure.
Do you think Spreading Seas is the way to go? I assume its to attack Tron primarily, but your running Trophy + Extraction for that, plus you have the ceremonious rejections. You don't need the seas for UW lands because of fatal push. It's not helpful against Titan because they just bounce their lands. I like it against Burn, but if we up the number of Brutality and either add more Scooze/Kalitis we should be okay there.
I would probably look at moving away from that number of Spreading Seas and Extractions. Black gives us access to Nihil Spellbomb, and we have Scooze and Kalitis to help vs. Phoenix / Dredge. I do love the Extraction + Trophy combination. Yeah, I think you might be better served cutting the three seas and one of the Extractions. If you replace the Flayers with Scavenging Ooze in the main that really frees you up in terms of the number of Extractions you need in the board. That's four extra SB slots.
Just thinking out loud here:) I'm not expert on the deck. One thing I can't stand is the 3/2 Serum Vision - Opt split. I always want to cut the Opts for SB cards. I think I'd rather just go 4 serum visions. I also have really liked Mana Leak in some numbers.
Having a hard answer to either DS, Gurmag or Wurmcoil Engines - and now Drakes - could be a massive boon. On the flip side, maybe going more on the vapor snag plan is the correct choice.
What about Thrash//Threat? Fight cards are risky, but honestly I'd prefer it to Electrolize which is borderline bad right now.
I'm still not sure what the best SB approach is to Tron. In practice I've liked Fulminator Mage because you can buy it back, but its kind of slow. I was thinking again of an old favorite, Crumble to Dust. That thing is fantastic, but again probably to slow? Do you guys board in land hate vs. Cavern of Souls? If so, what do you typically cut? Typically were talking Humans or Spirits so that means were cutting Remand? Clique? Cryptic? If we do that then we defeat the purpose of adding in land hate. I've typically just boarded out the remands (unless I want to deal with CC) and let them resolve their creatures.
Someone was mentioning that red has the better SB options right now. I'm not sure that's the case. Anger is better than Damnation, but I see a lot of rock decks running Languish, which is much better than Anger vs. Spirits, but obviously much worse vs. something like Dredge.
I've been fiddling around with Sultai Command because I like its GY hate - which in my view is the most important tool you can have right now. Temur just lacks on the GY hate unless you have access to some number of Surgical Extraction. Speaking of which, I think both versions need to be playing 2-3 md oozes right now.
The meta has shifted yet again and gotten even faster. Is our deck playable? Does Sultai have the pieces to beat KCI or the new Vengevine list? Anyone having any success with it (either Sultai or Temer)?
I'd love to see some udated lists with some of the new cards that have been printed:
Cast Down - do we make room for this in Sultai?
Alpine Moon - how are folks finding this vs. Tron? I don't mind it, but its certainly not enough on its own.
It feels like Temer just doesn't have enough removal right now, whereas Sultai almost has to much! On the flip side Temer is better vs. Tron and has Anger. With the need for GY hate it also feels like the ability to play Nihil Spellbomb makes Sultia a little better right now.
It could be that my struggles with Eternall Commmand are due to reps and mulliganing (as Rayo points out). It feels rare that I have a nice combination of lands, creatures, and interaction off the hop.
Those of you playing both versions of the deck currently, it would be great to see your current lists.
I'm playing one Abrade in the main as a fifth bolt and keeping the two Grudge in the SB for now.
I don't have a local meta - I can't make it to the LGS very often - and I play almost exclusively online, so that's my 'meta'. I think spell snare is much better than spell pierce online. I'm running two in the main and one in the board. It helps in mage battles, helps against burn, and is good against so many creatures.
If someone has the time, I would really appreciate someone helping me out with how to SB with this deck (temur or sultai). I don't need a deck by deck breakdown, but maybe a sense of what comes out vs. various archetypes. I often find I'm just removing a smattering of this, one of those, one of these, but no real purpose behind my choices. Maybe just take your sideboard nad say, against control I'd take out this, and I'd bring in this (Huntmaster as an example).
I've been playing tempo spirits (vial) online for over a year and am quite good with the deck. I picked it up because it was cheep and I was just starting out online and didn't want to put money in. I've grinded my way to all the pieces I need for temur or sultia command. However, spirits is very very different from this deck and I've struggled off the hop - although just managed a 4-1 which made me very happy!
Lastly, I'm running two Huntmaster in the board. I notice that their are a number of good four drop creatures we can consider:
Huntmaster - I really like my experience with him so far
Pia and Kiran Nalaar - I see the benefit of this guy as well (affinity? what else?)
Thrun - a long time favorite -> seems amazing vs. control
Collossos -> obvious house vs. DS and Jund, what else?
Glenn Elendra - combo/control?
Anyways, everyone's help is appreciated.
I have a question about Abrade vs. Ancient Grudge. Isn't Abrade just better because it can be used vs. artifacts but also against creatures?
Without having Collective Brutality - obviously an important card - would you run Feed the Clan's in the SB or something more versatile like some combination of extra Spell Pierce / Dispel / Negate?
The difficult thing about Remand is that its good on the play, and it buys time against certain decks, but its borderline bad on the draw. I like it, drawing cards is fun, but finding the correct configuration is key. Grindy decks are so skill intensive and have so many decisions I think each card needs to be considered extra carefully. I can imagine that one or two changes could make a big difference in a deck like this. Which is part of what makes it fun I guess:)
I've thrown together a bant list as well - anyone think Dromoka's command is a useful include? Seems like it would be great against other big creatures as long as you have Goyf out, and helps deal with blood moon and rip.
_________________
@2imu - as a taxes player who likes vials have you ever given Spirit Taxes a run? I run it to pretty good success online - basic deck idea is using Arbiter + Thalia alongside the normal W/U spirit pack of Mausoleum Wanderer, Rattlechains, Selfless Spirit, Phantasmal Image, Captain, and Spell Queller. Going Captain + image on Turn three (using vial) is pretty nuts, and few things are a fun as firing an Arbiter into the field in response to a tron player cracking a map.
_________________
I don't have the Brutality online because its like 30+ tix, but I have it in paper. I was playing a Sultai version months ago and in my brew I had Tireless Tracker for extra card draw - was fun but not the best synergy with a 20-21 land deck. I also really like the one mana counter if you have a creature that's four or greater. Stick an early goyf and your laughing.
It's a fun deck, but there are so many decisions that I think it's probably very skill intensive. The more decisions you have the more opportunities to make mistakes. I think the Clique is critical - having some type of flyer support for the odd spell queller or oppositing kitesail. I also think Grim Flayer could be good as you say - although I don't find that I get to delirium that often because of how few creatures we run.
Funny thing about Bontu, I was playing big mana and was just trading removal for creatures. I went damnation, bontu, then snap bontu, but could never find a creature to back up my wraths and the bontu ended up screwing me because I couldn't untap. Still, with Vial I think its a decent option. I wonder if the four mana -/3/3 wrath that lets us cast a card for free from our hand would be good? lets us play around our own Gofys and maybe cast something on top of it?
I think Golgari Charm is just so versatile. It can ruin elves, and lingering souls without cyptic is rough. I think its a good card.
Based on my previous play, and my recent run, I do think that the temer version is probably better in the online meta, just because of your ability to finish off decks with bolt that punish themselves with fast starts.
Still interested to see how it goes over time.
Thanks for the comment, I'll check back in occasionally with an update - and will lurk to see if anyone else is playing the deck online to any success.
Here's my list (based off of a couple of the lists on this site - thanks:)
4 vial
4 fatal push
3 serum visions
2 opt
1 spell pierce
1 Traverse
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Decay
1 Familar Ruse
1 Ooze
4 Goyf
4 Snap
3 Remand
3 Witness
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Cryptic
1 Hostage Taker
21 lands - one man land
My current SB looks like this:
1 Damnation
1 Bontu's Last Reckoning
1 Spell Pierce
1 Negate
3 Spreading Seas
3 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Decay
1 Ashiok
1 Golgari Charm
1 ooze
I need a clique or two, and I'm just testing out Hostage Taker for fun - I agree that Flayer is probably the better option - still, Hostage Taker won me a game last night vs. Amulet Titan (I stole a Titan, and managed to tap down with Cryptic the following turn to get my Titan and Goyf through for the win). The mainboard spell pierce is mostly just based on what I've read here. I was using Spell Snare but found it lacking online. I don't think the sultai version is overly worried about opposing two drop creatures. I'd rather have a way to protect my creatures or ambush a combo deck or super fast deck like Hollow One.
Anyways, thoughts on SB, and what our best configuration would be for more competitive scenes (such as online or at a GP) would be appreciated. What's our worst matchups?
Cheers