For me the GBX decks have a bit of problems. Few good tutors means you have a hard time to cover all your bases. Discard spells vs combo, lifegain vs agro, land destruction vs tron, good creature to apply preasure, removal in general and preferably some sort of engine. Tierless Tracker and Liliana the Last Hope are good engine cards, but they only cover one base for the most part. We can discuss the semantics. But
could cover a lot of that. Good inevabilaty lategame, bar graveyeard hate. I also think it is really good with perhaps having Fulminator Mage maindeck. Seems like a good softlock like Dustbowl was in extended. Also good to just return 2 goyfs.
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I think Ajani is a bit underwhelming at 4 mana. The counter things are not that interesting. Often you will not have 2 targets for it on the draws that are threath light. There are some good synergies with manlands, (lifelink or trample) as well as grim flayer.
BGx has the best 2 drops in the game, so the patern would be return a 2 drop to defend it. It might have good synergi with grim flayer. Also tidehollow skuller could be good vs non interactive decks.
If you are in abzan I am a big fan of Sorin Sojourner. The vampier is medioker, but the +1/0 and lifelink is very good to tipp a lot of matchups.
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Lost vs monogreen tron. I was stuck on lands (ghost quarter dod not help) and he never ran out of basics. Game one lost hands down. Game 2 he just sided into more midrange. One sphere later (that backfired when I was short on lands) Tron just came up to 8 lands and ugined me.
Lost vs a waste not deck. Wonn vs burn and wonn vs pelt colector zoo deck.
I miss treetop village. I also miss more card draw. I liked the traverse, but eternal witnes and trunn did not impress me. And I really like eternal witness in other modern decks. (I played kiki chord for a long while.)
I also playtested it vs storm. It was 50/50. The storm player sided out the mana bears, stranding me with a lot of dead cards. It is fun mind games.
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@pzbw7z in what matchup do you want Phyrexian Obliterator? You might actually tro to jump through some hoops (read Dromoka's Command) if you want to run him. Just dodge blood moons.
Obliterock was the flavor of the month a years years ago. It's just nostalgia. It's a fun card for FNM. I did play it for quite a while.
Back in my day we dark ritualed into Phyrexian Negator.
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What deck do you suggest Phyrexian Obliterator is good against?
Burn decks probably finish before you get your 4 black mana. And by that time they go upstairs.
Dredge might not care about loosing 3 permanents when you block prized amalgan. Also, all dredge late games finish you with a conflagerate off life from the loam. Creeping Chill will also drain you azt leats 6 points.
Spirits do not care. They just fly pass you.
Humans might not like him. But there is always reflector mage.
Hardened scales has sack outletrs, they never deal damage to obliterator.
Amulet Titan might actually have problems with him. Provided you get him out fast enough and they do not have 6 lands to sacrefice. (That they might have in all honesty.)
Tron does not care.
Eldrazi tron has problems with it.
Iron Works mdoes not care.
Infect bypass him.
Bridgevine might have a problem with him.
Hollow one might have a problem provided they do not have a push. But you do not wanne rely on a 4 drop vs a deck that makes 2 4/4 in turn 1.
Storm does not care.
Mardu Pyromancer has removal for him.
Jund/Rock/Abzan all can remove him.
Blue Red Ascentuion might have problems with it.
Valakut does not care.
Ponza might not like him.
@pzbw7z in what matchup do you want Phyrexian Obliterator? You might actually tro to jump through some hoops (read Dromoka's Command) if you want to run him. Just dodge blood moons.
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Sol's an amazing player, because I really can't follow that deck list. It looks like such a mess and I don't see a lot of rhyme or reason for his choices. He's definitely amazing, because it like...it's a mess.
Glad to see Reid on it. It sounds like Reid did very so so with Rock, I think he was X-3, but he also had 3 byes. Without those byes that's a solid record though.
The exact same thing basically is true for Selfeisek and his Mardu Pyro build. He created it, he plays it differently, and pretty much nobody does the same^^
On another take, I think about this time it is apropriate enough to let Rock have its own show. In this thread versions are discussed all over the place, Rock, Abzan or Abzan Traverse. I am currently writing on a standalone primer for Rock and I hope it will be available soon. Rock deserves it as much as Abzan or Jund at this point.
I think the problem is that rock and abzan sometimes are divided very thin. Like the versions reid made that has 3 lingering souls in them, some white mana, but the main plan is to discard them. Is that really an abzan deck is the main plan does not involve any white mana?
But yes, please make a new primer. Rock/Golgari has gotten enough tools now to be independent.
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1: Sol Maka obviusly comes equiped to fight non-creature decks.
2 Abrupt Deckay, 3 Assassins Throphy and 1 Malestorm pulse means you are looking to kill non-creature permanents. Following up on this the deck runs 3 Ghost Quarters. Ghost quarter help vs tron (having 6 disruption pieces mainboard vs the tron lands) and it helps vs Azcanta, Gavony Township and manlands, mainly celestial colonade. It also can do some work vs Ponza as it can take enchanted lands. I think the quarters are there mainly to kill tron as that is where Field of Ruin is much worse then ghost quarter.
Not only does the deck run 4 Iquesition and 2 thoughtsieze, it also runs 2 Collective Brutalaty to continue the discard suite. This also works double duity vs fast decks as you can combine a removal and sicard spell in one. Vs Burn you will often do all 3 modes.
Only running 2 fatal pushes means Sol Maka does not think creatures are that dangerus.
Generally Liliana of the Veil is better vs non creature decks and last hope is better vs creatures. You see the continuation of focus vs non creature spells.
2: Sol runs 2 Mishraus Bauble to boost Lhurgoyf, thin his deck and turn on his lone traverse the ulvenwald.
3: Sol runs a small toolboks package. The lone traverse effectivly functions as a second copy of a lot of cards like thrun, eternal witnes, and ghost quarter. It can also find gravyeard hate in ooze, card draw in tracker or dark confidant, or beats in the form of goyf. It can also help finding silver bullits in sideboard.
4: Having hate cards maindeck frees up your sideboard. Thrun for instance. This is not unlike how Reid use Spellbomb main.
5: The small land count means he dedicate his utilaty lands to ghost quarter. Where as the usual other option is treetop village. The deck wants a lot of green, not black. A pitty quagmire and spawning pool are quite bad.
6: Sideboard.
Ghost Quarter in the sideboard. Clearly tron hate. Perhaps also vs UW control.
Dures vs controll, combo and burn.
Fulminator mage vs tron. Perhaps other decks.
Kalitas vs dredge, greavyeard decks and midrange.
Surgical Exstaction vs gravyear decks and probably tyron with all the land destruction. (9 after sideboard.)
Damnation, Liliana and slaughter pact vs creature decks. Perhaps the golgari charm as well?
Liliana of the last hope vs controll?
Spellbombs vs gravyeard decks.
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How does the non bob and optionally grim flayer lists feels about discovery // dispersal? It is an instant and a sorcery and it is card selection? Can aldo putvother cards in the yeard.
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I don't play it in BGx but in BG.. it happens sometimes that the game ends with 1 or 0 lands for my opponent, if he has a greedy manabase with less basics.. even the basics get GQ'd away.. Tec Edge was also great against lot of decks.. it's not hard to cut your opp off of a color with this deck..
I would never leave home without my Bobs.. I think that he is criminally underplayed.. in my deck he is an all star.. in grindy games, Bob and Tracker made me draw half of my deck..
fast aggro decks can be a problem, it is very important to have 1 removal spell and Bob in you starting hand so he can let you draw your removal fast enough.. if you manage to take over until turn 5 I think you can not lose anymore..
If you end most games with your opponent on few or no lands, that is interesting. I just find it very contra intuetive that your deck suddenly is a land destruction deck with the inclusion of assassins thropy. So you are first gonne flodd them out, and then lategame kill them with grinding out their lands. It sounds very bad. That being said, Todd Stevens Valuetown decks that run Azusa, and ramunamp escavator can play 3 ghost quarters a turn and destroy your opponents mana. LftL is teqnicaly the same, but much slowe. I find it baffeling. Just adding LftL seems bad, but I am happy you are having results with it. When people like FlyingDelver try to defend LftL as a good card and cites cycling lands as a stock awnser, when the deck does not run any cycling landsJust seems wrong.
Also XOPYC you say you think BoB is underplayed. This is not true. Reid Duke had advocated this card long before BBE got unbanned. And the claim that they are never bad leads me to belive that your local meta has very little agro in it. GB with bobs vas burn is a horrible matchups. Post board they need to draw relic and nulefy your goyf and you are way behind. Combined with you having 6 posts, and claiming you often end up vs an opponent withouth lands in play speaks volumes about what decks you often meet in your meta. For that meta it makes great sence to play with card draw like BoB and grindy cards like LftL, but I am very sceptical to a better representative meta with more diversaty.
Mind you, I do not mind it as critique, but I think it is not universaly good. I am a big fan of LftL though, I just wish it was better in the deck.
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XOPIC what does the life from the loam do? Ravens crime is a one of. You have some sac lands, are that was it os there for? Dredging to fuel the gravyeard? I am confused.
Hqve you tested with collective brutalaty to get it into the gravyeard? Also scales well with fueling the brutalaty.
Secrets of the maeusoleum also works well in that shell and allows you to find ravens crime.
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For me the GBX decks have a bit of problems. Few good tutors means you have a hard time to cover all your bases. Discard spells vs combo, lifegain vs agro, land destruction vs tron, good creature to apply preasure, removal in general and preferably some sort of engine. Tierless Tracker and Liliana the Last Hope are good engine cards, but they only cover one base for the most part. We can discuss the semantics. But
BGx has the best 2 drops in the game, so the patern would be return a 2 drop to defend it. It might have good synergi with grim flayer. Also tidehollow skuller could be good vs non interactive decks.
If you are in abzan I am a big fan of Sorin Sojourner. The vampier is medioker, but the +1/0 and lifelink is very good to tipp a lot of matchups.
Lost vs monogreen tron. I was stuck on lands (ghost quarter dod not help) and he never ran out of basics. Game one lost hands down. Game 2 he just sided into more midrange. One sphere later (that backfired when I was short on lands) Tron just came up to 8 lands and ugined me.
Lost vs a waste not deck. Wonn vs burn and wonn vs pelt colector zoo deck.
I miss treetop village. I also miss more card draw. I liked the traverse, but eternal witnes and trunn did not impress me. And I really like eternal witness in other modern decks. (I played kiki chord for a long while.)
I also playtested it vs storm. It was 50/50. The storm player sided out the mana bears, stranding me with a lot of dead cards. It is fun mind games.
Ghost Quarter and assassins throphy + discard gives awnsers to natural tron. Field can be to slow.
Back in my day we dark ritualed into Phyrexian Negator.
Burn decks probably finish before you get your 4 black mana. And by that time they go upstairs.
Dredge might not care about loosing 3 permanents when you block prized amalgan. Also, all dredge late games finish you with a conflagerate off life from the loam. Creeping Chill will also drain you azt leats 6 points.
Spirits do not care. They just fly pass you.
Humans might not like him. But there is always reflector mage.
Hardened scales has sack outletrs, they never deal damage to obliterator.
Amulet Titan might actually have problems with him. Provided you get him out fast enough and they do not have 6 lands to sacrefice. (That they might have in all honesty.)
Tron does not care.
Eldrazi tron has problems with it.
Iron Works mdoes not care.
Infect bypass him.
Bridgevine might have a problem with him.
Hollow one might have a problem provided they do not have a push. But you do not wanne rely on a 4 drop vs a deck that makes 2 4/4 in turn 1.
Storm does not care.
Mardu Pyromancer has removal for him.
Jund/Rock/Abzan all can remove him.
Blue Red Ascentuion might have problems with it.
Valakut does not care.
Ponza might not like him.
@pzbw7z in what matchup do you want Phyrexian Obliterator? You might actually tro to jump through some hoops (read Dromoka's Command) if you want to run him. Just dodge blood moons.
I think the problem is that rock and abzan sometimes are divided very thin. Like the versions reid made that has 3 lingering souls in them, some white mana, but the main plan is to discard them. Is that really an abzan deck is the main plan does not involve any white mana?
But yes, please make a new primer. Rock/Golgari has gotten enough tools now to be independent.
Sol Malka's deck.
3 Liliana of the Veil
Creature (15)
4 Dark Confidant
1 Eternal Witness
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Tireless Tracker
Sorcery (10)
2 Collective Brutality
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize
1 Traverse the Ulvenwald
Instant (7)
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Assassin's Trophy
2 Fatal Push
2 Mishra's Bauble
Land (23)
4 Blooming Marsh
2 Forest
3 Ghost Quarter
3 Hissing Quagmire
1 Marsh Flats
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
60 Cards
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Damnation
2 Duress
2 Fulminator Mage
1 Golgari Charm
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Surgical Extraction
1: Sol Maka obviusly comes equiped to fight non-creature decks.
2 Abrupt Deckay, 3 Assassins Throphy and 1 Malestorm pulse means you are looking to kill non-creature permanents. Following up on this the deck runs 3 Ghost Quarters. Ghost quarter help vs tron (having 6 disruption pieces mainboard vs the tron lands) and it helps vs Azcanta, Gavony Township and manlands, mainly celestial colonade. It also can do some work vs Ponza as it can take enchanted lands. I think the quarters are there mainly to kill tron as that is where Field of Ruin is much worse then ghost quarter.
Not only does the deck run 4 Iquesition and 2 thoughtsieze, it also runs 2 Collective Brutalaty to continue the discard suite. This also works double duity vs fast decks as you can combine a removal and sicard spell in one. Vs Burn you will often do all 3 modes.
Only running 2 fatal pushes means Sol Maka does not think creatures are that dangerus.
Generally Liliana of the Veil is better vs non creature decks and last hope is better vs creatures. You see the continuation of focus vs non creature spells.
2: Sol runs 2 Mishraus Bauble to boost Lhurgoyf, thin his deck and turn on his lone traverse the ulvenwald.
3: Sol runs a small toolboks package. The lone traverse effectivly functions as a second copy of a lot of cards like thrun, eternal witnes, and ghost quarter. It can also find gravyeard hate in ooze, card draw in tracker or dark confidant, or beats in the form of goyf. It can also help finding silver bullits in sideboard.
4: Having hate cards maindeck frees up your sideboard. Thrun for instance. This is not unlike how Reid use Spellbomb main.
5: The small land count means he dedicate his utilaty lands to ghost quarter. Where as the usual other option is treetop village. The deck wants a lot of green, not black. A pitty quagmire and spawning pool are quite bad.
6: Sideboard.
Ghost Quarter in the sideboard. Clearly tron hate. Perhaps also vs UW control.
Dures vs controll, combo and burn.
Fulminator mage vs tron. Perhaps other decks.
Kalitas vs dredge, greavyeard decks and midrange.
Surgical Exstaction vs gravyear decks and probably tyron with all the land destruction. (9 after sideboard.)
Damnation, Liliana and slaughter pact vs creature decks. Perhaps the golgari charm as well?
Liliana of the last hope vs controll?
Spellbombs vs gravyeard decks.
This Sol Malka list is interesting. It seems that he comes prepeared for the infair matchups. Only 2 fatal pushesh?
Sol Malka's deck.
3 Liliana of the Veil
Creature (15)
4 Dark Confidant
1 Eternal Witness
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Tireless Tracker
Sorcery (10)
2 Collective Brutality
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize
1 Traverse the Ulvenwald
Instant (7)
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Assassin's Trophy
2 Fatal Push
2 Mishra's Bauble
Land (23)
4 Blooming Marsh
2 Forest
3 Ghost Quarter
3 Hissing Quagmire
1 Marsh Flats
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
60 Cards
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Damnation
2 Duress
2 Fulminator Mage
1 Golgari Charm
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Surgical Extraction
Or the one who designed the rock back in 00? He was also playing rock.
If you end most games with your opponent on few or no lands, that is interesting. I just find it very contra intuetive that your deck suddenly is a land destruction deck with the inclusion of assassins thropy. So you are first gonne flodd them out, and then lategame kill them with grinding out their lands. It sounds very bad. That being said, Todd Stevens Valuetown decks that run Azusa, and ramunamp escavator can play 3 ghost quarters a turn and destroy your opponents mana. LftL is teqnicaly the same, but much slowe. I find it baffeling. Just adding LftL seems bad, but I am happy you are having results with it. When people like FlyingDelver try to defend LftL as a good card and cites cycling lands as a stock awnser, when the deck does not run any cycling landsJust seems wrong.
Also XOPYC you say you think BoB is underplayed. This is not true. Reid Duke had advocated this card long before BBE got unbanned. And the claim that they are never bad leads me to belive that your local meta has very little agro in it. GB with bobs vas burn is a horrible matchups. Post board they need to draw relic and nulefy your goyf and you are way behind. Combined with you having 6 posts, and claiming you often end up vs an opponent withouth lands in play speaks volumes about what decks you often meet in your meta. For that meta it makes great sence to play with card draw like BoB and grindy cards like LftL, but I am very sceptical to a better representative meta with more diversaty.
Mind you, I do not mind it as critique, but I think it is not universaly good. I am a big fan of LftL though, I just wish it was better in the deck.
Hqve you tested with collective brutalaty to get it into the gravyeard? Also scales well with fueling the brutalaty.
Secrets of the maeusoleum also works well in that shell and allows you to find ravens crime.