@Eco: I'm not sure what Town!Dan would've said differently there.
I think that sometimes people get too hung up on what they would say or do if they were town rather than would could be said or done to actually look town - and that holds for people playing both alignments. It doesn't really matter what town Dan would have said - the town thing to do would be to say "ok maybe my reads aren't that great, let's go double check them with new information and/or find some better ones", so you should have done that.
GG Town, although it took longer than necessary. I had fun crushing the scum team and talking in my chats (which I'm happy to have released). Thanks for hosting Grapefruit!
@Dan: You have now consumed the benefit of the doubt. Next time I see you make convenient reads for weird/bad reasons I will probably lynch you. I would also say that what brought me around to you being my #1 not-Shadow scum read was that you persisted having the conversation about those reads with the attitude of "man I really don't want to have to make or think about reads" long after those reads and that discussion was relevant. You were fixating on an easy, outdated conversation to have instead of scumhunting.
@Bur: Disappointing play. Just because the game appeared to be on lock doesn't justify throwing the scum an easy mislynch and adding nothing to the game. Even if you were prepared to accept your lynch (which I think is still debatable because the game wasn't guaranteed locked), you should have at least posted some analysis of the remaining players (especially Dan). Just saying "ok I looked at the thread and it's Dan peace out" is not enough and you know it.
Besides tom. I have this feeling in the back of my head that says vezok could have just chosen his scum partner, but i was wrong about eco.. WHICH REMINDS ME.
Dearest brit whose name is Eco
Sorry i thought you were being sneako
Vezoks dead, but so are you.
Boo hoo hoo. Boo hoo hoo.
I was wrong about you, friend.
Lets hope town wins this in the end
Hang them high from a real tall tree
This a poem, love Rodemy.
Apology accepted. I was starting to reach a point where I was going to advise you to take whatever your current thought was and then do the exact opposite, but you redeemed yourself by not falling to paranoia about Tom on the final Day so good job.
Also instesd of cou tetclaiming snd "sacrificing yourself" you could hsve just jailed vezok
Why would I pass up a guaranteed scum lynch? Why would Vezok perform the kill? Like you don't seem to understand that fake counter claiming jailer at non-LyLo is incredibly stupid and surrendering a virtually universal town read just to get the jailer lynched would be just such poor play. It's almost insulting that you think I'd make this kind of play.
Why are you trying to over-explain? Rodemy understood this. You're trying to push a lynch on me, because everybody is lurking and we won't be able to make another wagon.
Rodemy, look, you need to step back and consider the whole picture. There are two possible scenarios here:
1) Scum Vezok realises he's in trouble because no-one is interested in his trash-tier Eco case and he's sliding inexoriably into being the Day's default lynch. He therefore attempts to salvage something for his team by claiming Jailer: he reveals the jailer for the NK and maybe with a big slice of luck gets the jailer lynched instead of himself. It's not much, but better than just getting lynched for nothing. Eco, the Jailer, sees the claim and considers it a very fair trade to potentially eat the NK in exchange for guaranteeing scum D1. He waits to counter claim to see what reactions are: yes, the initial reaction is people sayin "ok" and unvoting, but with under 48 hours from claim to the deadline people should be scrambling for new wagons, giving us voting records and forcing lurkers to take a stand. Vezok's scum buddy in particular has to content with the cognitive dissonance of knowing Vezok is lying without it being public knowledge. Whereas if Eco counterclaimed immediately, everyone is free to stop playing the game and say "cool got one" and just lynch Vezok.
2) Town Jailer Vezok has played scummily and - seeing himself up for lynch - claims. Scum Eco for some reason decides to throw away all of the town points he has accumulated so far and sacrfice himself to push the lynch through. He doesn't decide to just push another wagon (like this convenient Shadow wagon, or maybe a soft lurker like Vur or Dan) but instead throws his life away to lynch Vezok. Maybe he's panicing (out of character) and trying to save his scum buddy Shadow, but in that case why sacrifice Eco's strong position instead of just having Shadow claim Jailer? Or just...start a different wagon?
It's just so clear that I have incredibly little to gain by throwing my position as highly town read just for the sake of lynching a Jailer (which is not hugely impactful, especially if both scum are still alive), compared to how scum Vezok has something to gain by drawing out the counterclaim before he dies. Once you factor actual behvaioural analysis into it, I don't understand how you can possibly think I'd be the scum in this situation.
I have thoughts on Vezok that I am currently withholding. Bur knows them.
I am very keen to know what these were for obvious reasons. And also why you didn't just say them here?
Quote from Dan »
Emphasis mine. Did you accidentally a word in the bolded section of the first paragraph, or an apostrophe?
Missing word "you", as in "I think [you] were giving town reads out..."
Quote from Dan »
And as for the second paragraph, do you think that my reads need further developing, or are the foundations shaky to the point where they need reworking? Really hoping it's not the latter, considering my existing concerns about the game length.
Both. What are your concerns about game length?
Quote from Dan »
Also, what are your thoughts on the extended Rodemy/Tom conversation that is taking up most of our thread?
That it is taking up most of the thread is a sad indicator of how poor activity (in this thread at least) has been.
But what hypocrisy? I asked you what your reads were and expressed concerns that your posts were very neutral/non-committal. The post from the Invitational you quoted was me answering the question "if you had a mandatory vig shot you had to fire who would you shoot?" which I didn't like because reads are rarely that confident early in the game. At the time I ALSO had a vote on a player and was the subject of a wagon - so there's absolutely nothing unreasonable expecting some sort of read. You're trying to equate asking you for any kind of reads at all with "hit a vig shot or lose" which are very clearly not equivalent questions, which is disingenous at best and downright kowingly misleading at worst.
You're right that when I play town I usually have convincing and well made cases. I do exactly the same thing as scum. But I don't really know how detailed or well constructed a case you can realistically expect ~200 posts into a game.
Making a concsious choice to play poorly is not something I really appreciate but at least you recognize it?
Tom has asked me different questions since the beginning in the chat. I usually treat my neighbours as town and decide if they are scum later. If tom was scum I feel that he could have stopped the questioning and I would have probably been none the wiser, The tone of his posts in the neighbourhood also seems more townie than I've ever seen tom.
I'm town reading dan for his response to your question mostly and for his response to my question. I've explained that in earlier posts, but nice try.
Because shadow seems to me to be more calculating as scum than as town. I don't doubt that shadow would follow tom even as scum, but I highly doubt that it would do it so quickly.
I don't really get why scum Tom would stop questioning you, or why it would be a sensible idea to default assume the neighbour you chose is town by default. You didn't explain your Dan read in your reads post and I wanted a full consolidated explanation of it, but nice try. Why do you doubt Shadow would follow Tom that quickly - since it disagrees with Tom's assessment in #189.
Overall, I don't hate you reads. You have them, which is better than some people (Bur, Dan). They're not hugely fleshed out but there isn't SO much going on in the game that that's unreasonable. TBH if you'd made that post when I'd voted you I'd probably have pressed you less. But your OMGUS on me is just so bad. If you're going to contend that the defining feature of my scum meta is that I make attacks for bad reasons you have to actually demonstrate that I do that more as scum than town, and that my reasons here are bad. Instead you've just switched straight to 100% ECO R SCUM RAWR based on maybe 2 quotes without context that incorrectly call some reasons for attacking people bad. There just isn't enough evidence to for you to be as sure as you are, which makes me think you don't believe I'm scum, you've just decided I am and went to try and find the bare minimum of evidence you could.
Tom asked shadow to join him on a wagon and shadow did so. I think scum shadow would have been more reserved about doing so immediately.
And I confirm I picked tom.
Since you've confirmed this, can you also talk about why you town read Tom so heavily? And also go over your Dan read since you didn't explain that. Why do you think scum Shadow would have been more reserved?
This is ignoring the fact that between #67 and #88 I asked multiple questions. #88 was just a continuation of my argument that the first page was not useful at all for scum hunting. You are trying to paint it as a a lack of anything.
In #124 you are arguing semantics. Obviously if I like an answer it means that it gives town points to that person. I've also responded to why I liked dan's answer just a few posts from it.
You are twisting my words and trying to paint my every action as scummy even when you fully know you are wrong. This is scum behaviour.
You are correct, you did ask some questions. However, one (#74) was just clarification that didn't go anywhere. #87 looks really weird: it's a very serious post, but that's out of proportion for the best it's asking about. There's a lot of aggression for someone asking "how do you know when you'll need to adjust your play?". For all the seriousness of the post, it's also surprising that you never followed up on Shadow's response in #92.
RE: #124: well that's good then! Be explicit in your reads and we'll have fewer misunderstandings.
Perhaps I am being unfair, you have done more than nothing. But I can't really see any analysis from you: what are your reads right now? They don't have to be world beaters, I just want some evidence that you're trying to work out who's scum (apart from me obviously).
The scumgame in question that vezok pulled the quote from.
Vezok, why did you pull the quote and not aay what game it was so we can all look at it.
Eco, same question with an addon: how the hell did you remember what game let alone know which one was talkog about?
This may be nai, but it could also be tinfoil scum on scum sexytimes.
I could probably give you a summary of any mafia game I've played in my coming-up-to-ten year career. The Invitational was recent and seared onto my memory as an unpleasant experience, so I remember that in detail. Also I clicked the arrow as Vezok said to check the context.
God dammit I just had a post get eaten because apparently the plugin I used to recover them violates chrome store policies and disabled itself GRRR. The gist of it was:
@Vezok:
Basically everyone else has managed to get blood from this particular stone, and I think your lack of evidence of trying is indicative of scum. People can judge for themselves if your opening posts are neutral and non-committal, it's not you I need to convince. But can't really accuse me of telling bald-faced lies when you look at how empty of opinion or analysis posts like #40 ("this WIFOM situation is WIFOM"), #48 ("I think this is the post in question, I can see how some people would call it WIFOM" with no followup on Rodemy or Tom, or even if you yourself think the post is WIFOM), #53, #67 (both "I got nothing"), #88 ("I have this tiny opinion but basically means nothing") #124 (Do you think Dan is town? What do you like about his answer?).
The thing that is annoying me most is that you've 100% committed to this dreadful counterattack as I've said VEZOK LOCK SCUM KILL IT IMMEDIATELY. It's not. I voted you because you've done some scummy things and we all have to start somewhere. The vicious and also poorly supported nature of your defence really doesn't look like someone interested in working the game out, just someone who has found a potential mislynch to stick their teeth into.
@Eco Can we take a step back here? 1: I don't think that just because your justifications and mine differ, that it makes mine bad. Maybe that's not how you're intending to come across, but that's how I'm taking it. 2: If the semantics were that obvious, why did no one else have objections to it (specifically the semantics) after you? 3: Mass claiming being so obvious is why it doesn't get asked with regularity anymore, no?
It just feels like you're coming across very disparaging over things that, at the time, were infantile in their creation. I've been up front about how this size/timeframe of game is not my strong suit. I answered your questions in what I considered to be suitable depth given the development of my reads. What else would you have me do?
1) My point is not "different therefore bad". My point is that I don't think your reaons are very good (in terms of "I don't think they are alignment indicative"), and that better reasons existed if you were, say, scum seeking to produce plausible reads.
2) I guess because I got there first so people didn't feel the need to? Or they silently followed the same line of thinking I had and dismissed it as not useful. Maybe I'm underselling my observation abilities or something - but even if I am and no-one else noticed the contradiction, I think it would be very much within my capability as scum to notice Rodemy making the contradiction and Do Something about it. Basically, I don't think you should town read me (or most players) for noticing it.
3) Does it not? I don't have any examples to hand, but it seems that "should we claim our neighbours" was an expected topic of conversation - that's why Tom and Vezok addressed it in their first posts, and my questions were just a continuation of their positions on the matter. Again, I basically just don't think I deserve town credit for it because it seems like a very simple and easy set of questions to ask regardless of my alignment.
I totally accept that your reads we in their infancy, and I respect that they weren't IRONCLAD HARD CLEARS. My overarching point is that I think were giving town reads out for things which didn't deserve town reads to players who scum would pick as people to pick as town reads because that's easier than trying to lynch them and maybe you can pocket them. My current conclusion is that your reasons, while I don't think they're very good, are more indicative of someone who is thinking about the game and coming to their own reads (i.e. town) than of someone who has been put on the sppot for reads and comes up with easy ones supported by some flimsy reasons (i.e. scum).
I don't mean to say "wow ur reason r bad u suk lol" I mean "I don't think your reasons justify your town reads because they are easily within the scum range of those players specifically, and I think a decent proportion of the playerbase at large". As for what I want? Really just for you to think about your initial reads and make sure you are happy with them. I don't need you to defend yourself or for me to monopolise your attention because I don't think you're scum at this juncture.
The first quote completely misses the context that it was in response to being asked "Who would you say is your top wolf read at this moment in time? You have a dayvig that you have to use right now, if you hit town we lose. Go.". That I would not expect anyone to be confident enough to bet the entire game after 150 posts is, I think, entirely reasonable. That does not, however, mean that having no reads is reasonable. Beyond that though, the reason I am voting you is not solely because you have no reads: it is because your posts have been studiously neutral, and you had not even tried to get any reads. Such deliberate attempt to skate by is indicative of scum.
For the second quote, your analysis is incorrect. A player disagreeing with a wagon but making no attempts to stop it and without making a concrete read is a very solid reason to scum read that player - scum are very keen to take credit of a correct town read while also not preventing a mislynch. In addition, that read was a calcualted, intentional distance from my scumbuddy - had I produced a flawless case I might have got him lynched, which would have been Very Bad. If you are going to claim my scum meta involves attacking people for bad reasons, you have to produce actually valid examples (and counter-examples from my town games).
The worst problem is that this meta attack doesn't even connect to this game. Why are my reasons for voting you bad? You cannot produce evidence to counter my assertion, so you simply vacuously deny it, drawing fake parallels to a scum game.
As I said in #134, I would be prepared to be proven wrong by the revelation of reads or any interest in scumhunting, but this incredibly poorly constructed OMGUS is not that.
For the record, I am voting Vezok because his posts have all been intentionally non-committal and neutral, the questions he is asking are empty busywork, and I don't think he's interested in scumhunting at all. He is welcome to try and prove me wrong.
I think that sometimes people get too hung up on what they would say or do if they were town rather than would could be said or done to actually look town - and that holds for people playing both alignments. It doesn't really matter what town Dan would have said - the town thing to do would be to say "ok maybe my reads aren't that great, let's go double check them with new information and/or find some better ones", so you should have done that.
@Dan: You have now consumed the benefit of the doubt. Next time I see you make convenient reads for weird/bad reasons I will probably lynch you. I would also say that what brought me around to you being my #1 not-Shadow scum read was that you persisted having the conversation about those reads with the attitude of "man I really don't want to have to make or think about reads" long after those reads and that discussion was relevant. You were fixating on an easy, outdated conversation to have instead of scumhunting.
@Bur: Disappointing play. Just because the game appeared to be on lock doesn't justify throwing the scum an easy mislynch and adding nothing to the game. Even if you were prepared to accept your lynch (which I think is still debatable because the game wasn't guaranteed locked), you should have at least posted some analysis of the remaining players (especially Dan). Just saying "ok I looked at the thread and it's Dan peace out" is not enough and you know it.
Apology accepted. I was starting to reach a point where I was going to advise you to take whatever your current thought was and then do the exact opposite, but you redeemed yourself by not falling to paranoia about Tom on the final Day so good job.
I will accept apologies in the form of a Haiku, limerick, or in the form of any other short poem.
@Shadow Wait for Bur pls
Why would I pass up a guaranteed scum lynch? Why would Vezok perform the kill? Like you don't seem to understand that fake counter claiming jailer at non-LyLo is incredibly stupid and surrendering a virtually universal town read just to get the jailer lynched would be just such poor play. It's almost insulting that you think I'd make this kind of play.
1) Scum Vezok realises he's in trouble because no-one is interested in his trash-tier Eco case and he's sliding inexoriably into being the Day's default lynch. He therefore attempts to salvage something for his team by claiming Jailer: he reveals the jailer for the NK and maybe with a big slice of luck gets the jailer lynched instead of himself. It's not much, but better than just getting lynched for nothing. Eco, the Jailer, sees the claim and considers it a very fair trade to potentially eat the NK in exchange for guaranteeing scum D1. He waits to counter claim to see what reactions are: yes, the initial reaction is people sayin "ok" and unvoting, but with under 48 hours from claim to the deadline people should be scrambling for new wagons, giving us voting records and forcing lurkers to take a stand. Vezok's scum buddy in particular has to content with the cognitive dissonance of knowing Vezok is lying without it being public knowledge. Whereas if Eco counterclaimed immediately, everyone is free to stop playing the game and say "cool got one" and just lynch Vezok.
2) Town Jailer Vezok has played scummily and - seeing himself up for lynch - claims. Scum Eco for some reason decides to throw away all of the town points he has accumulated so far and sacrfice himself to push the lynch through. He doesn't decide to just push another wagon (like this convenient Shadow wagon, or maybe a soft lurker like Vur or Dan) but instead throws his life away to lynch Vezok. Maybe he's panicing (out of character) and trying to save his scum buddy Shadow, but in that case why sacrifice Eco's strong position instead of just having Shadow claim Jailer? Or just...start a different wagon?
It's just so clear that I have incredibly little to gain by throwing my position as highly town read just for the sake of lynching a Jailer (which is not hugely impactful, especially if both scum are still alive), compared to how scum Vezok has something to gain by drawing out the counterclaim before he dies. Once you factor actual behvaioural analysis into it, I don't understand how you can possibly think I'd be the scum in this situation.
I am the jailkeeper. Vezok is scum.
Let's not end the Day until Bur and Shadow have posted at least.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
I am very keen to know what these were for obvious reasons. And also why you didn't just say them here?
Missing word "you", as in "I think [you] were giving town reads out..."
Both. What are your concerns about game length?
That it is taking up most of the thread is a sad indicator of how poor activity (in this thread at least) has been.
You're right that when I play town I usually have convincing and well made cases. I do exactly the same thing as scum. But I don't really know how detailed or well constructed a case you can realistically expect ~200 posts into a game.
Making a concsious choice to play poorly is not something I really appreciate but at least you recognize it?
Have a happy birthday though!
I don't really get why scum Tom would stop questioning you, or why it would be a sensible idea to default assume the neighbour you chose is town by default. You didn't explain your Dan read in your reads post and I wanted a full consolidated explanation of it, but nice try. Why do you doubt Shadow would follow Tom that quickly - since it disagrees with Tom's assessment in #189.
Overall, I don't hate you reads. You have them, which is better than some people (Bur, Dan). They're not hugely fleshed out but there isn't SO much going on in the game that that's unreasonable. TBH if you'd made that post when I'd voted you I'd probably have pressed you less. But your OMGUS on me is just so bad. If you're going to contend that the defining feature of my scum meta is that I make attacks for bad reasons you have to actually demonstrate that I do that more as scum than town, and that my reasons here are bad. Instead you've just switched straight to 100% ECO R SCUM RAWR based on maybe 2 quotes without context that incorrectly call some reasons for attacking people bad. There just isn't enough evidence to for you to be as sure as you are, which makes me think you don't believe I'm scum, you've just decided I am and went to try and find the bare minimum of evidence you could.
Since you've confirmed this, can you also talk about why you town read Tom so heavily? And also go over your Dan read since you didn't explain that. Why do you think scum Shadow would have been more reserved?
You are correct, you did ask some questions. However, one (#74) was just clarification that didn't go anywhere. #87 looks really weird: it's a very serious post, but that's out of proportion for the best it's asking about. There's a lot of aggression for someone asking "how do you know when you'll need to adjust your play?". For all the seriousness of the post, it's also surprising that you never followed up on Shadow's response in #92.
RE: #124: well that's good then! Be explicit in your reads and we'll have fewer misunderstandings.
Perhaps I am being unfair, you have done more than nothing. But I can't really see any analysis from you: what are your reads right now? They don't have to be world beaters, I just want some evidence that you're trying to work out who's scum (apart from me obviously).
I could probably give you a summary of any mafia game I've played in my coming-up-to-ten year career. The Invitational was recent and seared onto my memory as an unpleasant experience, so I remember that in detail. Also I clicked the arrow as Vezok said to check the context.
@Vezok:
Basically everyone else has managed to get blood from this particular stone, and I think your lack of evidence of trying is indicative of scum. People can judge for themselves if your opening posts are neutral and non-committal, it's not you I need to convince. But can't really accuse me of telling bald-faced lies when you look at how empty of opinion or analysis posts like #40 ("this WIFOM situation is WIFOM"), #48 ("I think this is the post in question, I can see how some people would call it WIFOM" with no followup on Rodemy or Tom, or even if you yourself think the post is WIFOM), #53, #67 (both "I got nothing"), #88 ("I have this tiny opinion but basically means nothing") #124 (Do you think Dan is town? What do you like about his answer?).
The thing that is annoying me most is that you've 100% committed to this dreadful counterattack as I've said VEZOK LOCK SCUM KILL IT IMMEDIATELY. It's not. I voted you because you've done some scummy things and we all have to start somewhere. The vicious and also poorly supported nature of your defence really doesn't look like someone interested in working the game out, just someone who has found a potential mislynch to stick their teeth into.
1) My point is not "different therefore bad". My point is that I don't think your reaons are very good (in terms of "I don't think they are alignment indicative"), and that better reasons existed if you were, say, scum seeking to produce plausible reads.
2) I guess because I got there first so people didn't feel the need to? Or they silently followed the same line of thinking I had and dismissed it as not useful. Maybe I'm underselling my observation abilities or something - but even if I am and no-one else noticed the contradiction, I think it would be very much within my capability as scum to notice Rodemy making the contradiction and Do Something about it. Basically, I don't think you should town read me (or most players) for noticing it.
3) Does it not? I don't have any examples to hand, but it seems that "should we claim our neighbours" was an expected topic of conversation - that's why Tom and Vezok addressed it in their first posts, and my questions were just a continuation of their positions on the matter. Again, I basically just don't think I deserve town credit for it because it seems like a very simple and easy set of questions to ask regardless of my alignment.
I totally accept that your reads we in their infancy, and I respect that they weren't IRONCLAD HARD CLEARS. My overarching point is that I think were giving town reads out for things which didn't deserve town reads to players who scum would pick as people to pick as town reads because that's easier than trying to lynch them and maybe you can pocket them. My current conclusion is that your reasons, while I don't think they're very good, are more indicative of someone who is thinking about the game and coming to their own reads (i.e. town) than of someone who has been put on the sppot for reads and comes up with easy ones supported by some flimsy reasons (i.e. scum).
I don't mean to say "wow ur reason r bad u suk lol" I mean "I don't think your reasons justify your town reads because they are easily within the scum range of those players specifically, and I think a decent proportion of the playerbase at large". As for what I want? Really just for you to think about your initial reads and make sure you are happy with them. I don't need you to defend yourself or for me to monopolise your attention because I don't think you're scum at this juncture.
The first quote completely misses the context that it was in response to being asked "Who would you say is your top wolf read at this moment in time? You have a dayvig that you have to use right now, if you hit town we lose. Go.". That I would not expect anyone to be confident enough to bet the entire game after 150 posts is, I think, entirely reasonable. That does not, however, mean that having no reads is reasonable. Beyond that though, the reason I am voting you is not solely because you have no reads: it is because your posts have been studiously neutral, and you had not even tried to get any reads. Such deliberate attempt to skate by is indicative of scum.
For the second quote, your analysis is incorrect. A player disagreeing with a wagon but making no attempts to stop it and without making a concrete read is a very solid reason to scum read that player - scum are very keen to take credit of a correct town read while also not preventing a mislynch. In addition, that read was a calcualted, intentional distance from my scumbuddy - had I produced a flawless case I might have got him lynched, which would have been Very Bad. If you are going to claim my scum meta involves attacking people for bad reasons, you have to produce actually valid examples (and counter-examples from my town games).
The worst problem is that this meta attack doesn't even connect to this game. Why are my reasons for voting you bad? You cannot produce evidence to counter my assertion, so you simply vacuously deny it, drawing fake parallels to a scum game.
As I said in #134, I would be prepared to be proven wrong by the revelation of reads or any interest in scumhunting, but this incredibly poorly constructed OMGUS is not that.