Drown in the loch looks like one of those flexible cards I was looking for to fight spells or creatures in Esper. Curious to see how impactful this is going to be in the format, I can see tron not being a good match for it, while it's going to be excellent against control, midrange, combo and red decks
It's probably fine as long as there aren't many delve threats running around. Being dead against Gurmag Angler is otherwise a significant blind spot, as are decks that don't fill the graveyard on their own. It's also a nonbo with Rest in Peace, so it would be prudent to switch hate to Grafdigger's Cage.
Yea, this is my concern indeed, finding the balance between the number of mana sources and the number of calls you want. Call can bee seen as a curve topper in this scenario, or an expensive way to get access to 1cmc drops, which at the moment are solely mausoleum wanderers ( since being strict on mana means you're not looking for sailor) or the singleton permeating mass if we wanna be spicy and we re facing creatures putting pressure that demand to be turned into 1/3s.
The reason why I'm thinking of an alternative version for bant is that to avoid the drawback of late game hierarchs and dekbuilding compromises in general, to try not to fully run into wrenn and sixes, lavadarts and such we already suffer enough, and at least gaining that extra selectivity that collected company doesn't guarantee ( although the two for one can't be replaced as an effect). This also allows to turn-3-play the best possible creature you have brought in after sideboard.
I have no idea if this thing has legs, I guess it's something worth exploring since so many times we ve been looking for selection with the ultimate goal of finding the right piece at the right time/right on time.
What if you ran Call as a sideboard card supported by Horizon lands and a Breeding Pool or Temple Garden in the main? If the main use is to grab sideboard creatures, then it can be run as additional copies in matchups where it matters the most.
I am currently thinking of what an UW -splash green for eladamri's call ( 2 or 3 of) could give to this deck.
For example, it would represent extra copies of lords, kira, nebelgast herald, better accessibility to counterspell-like effects. It'd make the vial and rattlechains plan super interesting and it would turn the sideboard into a toolbox where you might fit all of the disruptive creatures like kataki, eidolon, spirit of the labyrinth, and some other good creature like eputy, teeg, ouphe and such.
Having access to permeating mass, nebelgast herald, and hanged executioner if that's the case, might also help us solving the Path to exile dilemma, that card you want to see twice in some games , one at most in some others.
I ve got no time now to build it online and test it, but I'll be giving this version (uw splash green) a shot in the future. Big attraction is also the new UG land which allows us to maximize on this effect while not losing colour sources.
It's an interesting idea, but it puts pressure on available mana. If an Aether Vial is present, then it's no problem, but most actual toolbox decks run mana dorks to offset the mana inefficiency of most tutors. A full Bant build with Noble Hierarchs might benefit from splitting Eladamri's Call with Collected Company, but a tempo-oriented UW-style deck has precious little room for cards that don't immediately affect the board. Without a vial, there's no guarantee that you'd have a couple extra mana lying around at the end of your opponent's turn to cast your tutor, and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben basically can't coexist with it.
No, tehy have too many threats and angles of attack: vengevines, bridges, hogaak. You get rid of one of them but still have to deal with all of the others. Also, surgical doesn't stop Hogaak from being cast because of the way the exchange of priority works. It just takes them to mill themselves and cast it without changing phase of the turn or putting other triggers or spells on the stack. Hogaak might be in the GY after they mill it, they delve/convoke it right away with you only having priority before the mill effect happens or after they have convoked the necropolis.
As for relics and clerics, they rebuild too fast to make it effective. I have never seen any deck rebuild the GY so quickly: relic taps can't keep up with the mass of cards hitting the bin, and once exiled it's gone. Same goes for Remorseful Cleric, it doesn't prevent delving and once it's gone it's gone.
This version has to be dealt with static effects.
Then why Lavinia? She also only stops one angle of attack, and she also costs 2 mana. Surgical Extraction at least stops any of the angles mentioned individually. Hogaak might be able to slip out from Surgical if your opponent pitches/mills him during their main phase, but there are a number of opportunities to get him. Any draw step dredge, any triggered ability while he's in the graveyard, and any sac outlet activation will let you surgical Hogaak.
I'm actualy considering lavinia as a sideboard option to respond to the rise of bridgevine. the fact is that the 4th copy of rest in peace won't be of any wider use than the 1st copy of Lavinia. I've considered meddling mage too. I'm beginning to think 4x ways to stop hogaak are not enough to win g2 and g3 consistently, given that g1 is almost unwinnable if your opponent is decent at keeping their opening hands and know what they need to go off bt t3 or 4.
I think the real problem with using Lavinia, Azorius Renegade is that she's so damn narrow. She stops Hogaak, but not any of the other Bridgevine/Dredgevine shenanigans those decks run. She's strong against tron, but Spirits has access to better anti-tron options. She stops Terminus against control, but literally nothing else. She acts as Spell Queller insurance, but Teferi, Time Raveler does that better. She prevents us from using Force of Negation, too.
As someone getting into spirits (having occasionally looked at this thread for inspiration) I feel Soulherder would work better in this deck than Unsettled Mariner. Being able to wipe the opponent's board with a Settle the Wreckage while buffing Soulherder will help close out games. My only issues with Soulherder are it's mana cost, as the 3 drop slot seems a bit crowded, and its lack of flying
Except in Spirits Soulherder is just a non-evasive 3 CMC 1/1 that grows. Pretty much all of the ETB triggers used in the deck are either timing-dependent or some form of temporary removal, so it's just a big ground threat that dies to Gut Shot without support. I sure as heck don't want to spend 3 mana on that, and it gains little from Vial.
I'm less sold on Collective Brutality currently, though I'm willing to experiment with one copy. The issue is that it doesn't hit any good targets that couldn't be more efficiently dealt with via fatal push, and the other modes aren't always helpful either. I still think Despark could be good, at least in the sideboard, though I'm uncertain of whether I'd rather have it orDisdainful Strokethere.I'm also experimenting with 1x Blast Zone in the main and 1x Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord in the sideboard as an extra toolbox card. Thoughts?
I've been trying out Blast Zone over Moorland Haunt, and I have been impressed by it, for the most part. I've pulled some critical swings against Humans with it a few times, and it at least taps for mana even when useless.
As for Despark versus Disdainful Stroke, stroke is much better against Tron, UW Control, and Titan Shift, while despark is better against Phoenix, and the two are roughly equal against Amulet Titan. Hitting Terminus and being able to head off the first loyalty ability activation from planeswalkers is huge for stroke, and being countermagic lets it hit X spells such as Walking Ballista and Whir of Invention. Despark does have more fluid timing options than countermagic, which is especially important given how the Esper version of Spirits tends to run sorceries.
No, keep copter. Its very presence in any sort of modern deck is an admission that the deck has dead cards in it, and, frankly, you need the card flow to compensate for the deck's lack of anything else that helps you assemble any particular pair of creatures. If you're going to run this alleged decklist, you might as well take out Deputy of Detention, since you technically do have removal for any permanent in Kirin.
This combo seems terrible imo. Kirin is awful on its own because it blows up your other creatures when you cast spirits through an outlet other than Aether Vial, and Ugin's Conjurant is just an Endless One that withers itself. We don't have a reliable spirit tutor, either, to compensate for running two individually bad cards. Not to mention, it's "just" an Armageddon, so it doesn't actually win the game all the time. It's a serious problem for control and tron if it stumbled on assembly, but it doesn't help against an established board state. Using Kirin at higher CMCs requires a serious mana investment or an awkward vial at 4, in addition to the aforementioned risk to your own spirits.
As for the article, something tells me that SCG is trying to take advantage of Kirin's sudden price spike.
Sure, PWs allow us to attack from a different angle, I value them a lot for this reason.
It's also not just about the static ability, but the minus which deals with prisons drawing you a card. I think this and the static ability are worth giving it a chance.
I'm also on Esper so casting souls at flash speed sounds spicy.
Speaking of which, I noticed that you ran Jace, the Mind Sculptor in your SB. I may or may not (no, really, idk yet) have split a mythic edition with a friend in which I will receive Jace, Gideon, Tezzeret, and Garruk, and I was wondering if it were worthwhile to put him somewhere in my 75. You've been testing a number of different planeswalkers in your Esper builds, so I was wondering how they stack up against JTMS.
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It's probably fine as long as there aren't many delve threats running around. Being dead against Gurmag Angler is otherwise a significant blind spot, as are decks that don't fill the graveyard on their own. It's also a nonbo with Rest in Peace, so it would be prudent to switch hate to Grafdigger's Cage.
What if you ran Call as a sideboard card supported by Horizon lands and a Breeding Pool or Temple Garden in the main? If the main use is to grab sideboard creatures, then it can be run as additional copies in matchups where it matters the most.
It's an interesting idea, but it puts pressure on available mana. If an Aether Vial is present, then it's no problem, but most actual toolbox decks run mana dorks to offset the mana inefficiency of most tutors. A full Bant build with Noble Hierarchs might benefit from splitting Eladamri's Call with Collected Company, but a tempo-oriented UW-style deck has precious little room for cards that don't immediately affect the board. Without a vial, there's no guarantee that you'd have a couple extra mana lying around at the end of your opponent's turn to cast your tutor, and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben basically can't coexist with it.
Herald is a good card, but it's still a 3 drop. That means it comes out way too late against many decks that demand path.
Then why Lavinia? She also only stops one angle of attack, and she also costs 2 mana. Surgical Extraction at least stops any of the angles mentioned individually. Hogaak might be able to slip out from Surgical if your opponent pitches/mills him during their main phase, but there are a number of opportunities to get him. Any draw step dredge, any triggered ability while he's in the graveyard, and any sac outlet activation will let you surgical Hogaak.
Is Surgical Extraction not good enough?
Except in Spirits Soulherder is just a non-evasive 3 CMC 1/1 that grows. Pretty much all of the ETB triggers used in the deck are either timing-dependent or some form of temporary removal, so it's just a big ground threat that dies to Gut Shot without support. I sure as heck don't want to spend 3 mana on that, and it gains little from Vial.
Yeah, but what would go out for it? All of our non-land cards are removal, vials, the indispensable Thalia, and the actual spirits.
I've been trying out Blast Zone over Moorland Haunt, and I have been impressed by it, for the most part. I've pulled some critical swings against Humans with it a few times, and it at least taps for mana even when useless.
As for Despark versus Disdainful Stroke, stroke is much better against Tron, UW Control, and Titan Shift, while despark is better against Phoenix, and the two are roughly equal against Amulet Titan. Hitting Terminus and being able to head off the first loyalty ability activation from planeswalkers is huge for stroke, and being countermagic lets it hit X spells such as Walking Ballista and Whir of Invention. Despark does have more fluid timing options than countermagic, which is especially important given how the Esper version of Spirits tends to run sorceries.
No, keep copter. Its very presence in any sort of modern deck is an admission that the deck has dead cards in it, and, frankly, you need the card flow to compensate for the deck's lack of anything else that helps you assemble any particular pair of creatures. If you're going to run this alleged decklist, you might as well take out Deputy of Detention, since you technically do have removal for any permanent in Kirin.
This combo seems terrible imo. Kirin is awful on its own because it blows up your other creatures when you cast spirits through an outlet other than Aether Vial, and Ugin's Conjurant is just an Endless One that withers itself. We don't have a reliable spirit tutor, either, to compensate for running two individually bad cards. Not to mention, it's "just" an Armageddon, so it doesn't actually win the game all the time. It's a serious problem for control and tron if it stumbled on assembly, but it doesn't help against an established board state. Using Kirin at higher CMCs requires a serious mana investment or an awkward vial at 4, in addition to the aforementioned risk to your own spirits.
As for the article, something tells me that SCG is trying to take advantage of Kirin's sudden price spike.
Speaking of which, I noticed that you ran Jace, the Mind Sculptor in your SB. I may or may not (no, really, idk yet) have split a mythic edition with a friend in which I will receive Jace, Gideon, Tezzeret, and Garruk, and I was wondering if it were worthwhile to put him somewhere in my 75. You've been testing a number of different planeswalkers in your Esper builds, so I was wondering how they stack up against JTMS.