What are everybody's thoughts on Serra? Bant probably doesn't have room for another non-creature, but she feels like a powerful option for UW or Esper. Her Worship comes down a turn later than the enchantment, but it can't be removed. The angel feels very useful in the mirror, and the pump, while inferior to some of the other anthems available, is still very respectable.
Haven't played any Esper builds (I should!) but I definitely can see a place for her in UW, especially since UW plays a much more tempo-focused and a slower game than Bant. I think the double white for Serra makes it difficult to include in Bant, or even consider it as a sideboard card.
giddeon, ally of zendikar already felt fineish sometimes, as there are decks that super struggle with a stream of 2/2s (like UW control). She feels like a strict upgrade. If she's not in danger of getting picked off too early from a bolt/gut shot you can stick a 4/4 out that can be a serious road block to things like bolt and Phoenix. After that it's just gravy. Her tokens also chew through colonnades very well.
I could see it panning out for the slower builds or post sideboard for grindier decks. Sucks she doesn't play well with GoST but oh well.
Bant feels stronger at closing out games if an opponent doesn't have an ideal start. Which makes it well suited for longer tournaments.
UW feels like it plays much better against interactive matches with a solid game 1. It just can't turn up as much pressure as bant as quickly if your opponent stumbles (t3 coco into double lord).
At least in my experience this has been the case. I prefer UW but it plays better for my meta. In an open field I'd more than likely run bant because if even a few of your matches are you going hierarch, traft, coco hitting double captain then you're that much further into a tournament because lets be real...what is beating that? Take 9, take lethal while your opponent has gone into maybe t3? All your opponent can do is hold up mana to stop the coco or removal on the hierarch game 1 against those hands.
Counters and queller can really put a damper on the biggest plays. I would avoid unified will and look to cards like unsubstantiate to give you an mode to use vs vial/cavern heavy tribal decks. I've greatly enjoyed spell pierce as a 2 of in the main - but I board d out of counters in these matches.
Humans has an incredibly hard time killing you through a worship. Elves isn't impacted by it. GB can just drain kill you. GW can ballista down your board and then dome you for whatever they need unless you have the hexproof lock - at which point they just dig for a rec sage. Rec save may already be coming in because of vials anyway - esp finally if they are worried about grafdiggers cage.
Just some notes from my games at the LGS with UW vial.
Would anyone consider Oketra’s last mercy in the UW vial spirits deck? Assuming upon cast you don’t die to eidolon effect. Resetting life to starting should be game over for burn - plus vial mitigates lands not untapping next turn
Would anyone consider Oketra’s last mercy in the UW vial spirits deck? Assuming upon cast you don’t die to eidolon effect. Resetting life to starting should be game over for burn - plus vial mitigates lands not untapping next turn
I don't think it's strong enough. You open yourself up to sullcrack in response and tempo yourself for a turn without an active vial. Also, it needs to be fired off somewhere between 3-15 life ideally a even higher minimum then that. You'll get a lot more mileage from incremental gains from other cards I think.
Considering testing blink of an eye as a two of for my meta. As is I can't beat bridge if it resolves before board. Unsure, I'll let you guys know how it does.
I've been so happy with spell pierce in the main and it rarely gets taken out. Happy with it against all but super heavy creature matches (humans, elves, allies, slivers).
Played another modern event tonight at the LGS for a 4-0 finish. Lots of infect, people are jamming a bunch of test decks. Anyway, neat spell interaction came up. I run two blessed alliance in the side for burn and large ground threats I can't easily deal with, which of course come in against infect because they're amazing.
There is a window during combat, someone more rules and phase savvy can probably go into more detail about this, that's after damage is dealt to cast spells that can still impact creatures that had attacked and or dealt damage.
Opponent swung in with a inkmoth nexus and a glistner elf (declare attackers). I blocked the elf (declare blockers) went to damage and ate some infect points and let my dude trade with elf. I then fired off a blessed alliance at end of combat step to kill the nexus. If I fired it off before blocks during thh attackers phase I may not have gotten the trade (as all pump would have just been dumped on the surviving creature). if I fired it off after blocks were declared he would have just sacced the blocked creature. This let me get both dudes off the board and eventually turn the game around as he was forced to set up and protect another threat at that point.
I bought a playset of celestial kirin when EDM was released and I've yet to see a meta where they would serve me well colt. I typically empty my hand well before I hit the mana to play them in UW vial.
Thanks for the tournament write up Shawn! Cheers on a solid performance. I agree with you on nebelgast as it just feels so great in so many matches. I tend to view it as standard is looking at goblin chainwhirler - back breaking for certain decks and a passable beater against control. The card feels great when I'm behind and at parity. It's fine when I'm ahead.
@maartendq I totally understand the meta call. If I was facing down a bevy of control every week I would also change my list.
I'm glad the deck had such a great show this week. I definately think it's T1 (bant coco or UW vial) and will be meta once more people pick up the deck. This is one I'm glad I moved on early.
Modern FNM 3-0, discussion of matches in spoiler. was KCI, Blue Moon, and then Infect (UG).
The KCI game 1, I was on the draw and was able to spellqueller his first KCI. After that I just protected the queen and rode out damage for a turn or two. I had a second queller in hand for the next KCI. Game 2 was 4 rounds I think, as I was able to protect my disruption pieces and had an early game eidolon of rhetoric he had a hard time getting rid of.
+echoing truth
+eidolon of rhetoric
+Hurkyll's recall
+the two rest in peace
+kataki
-4 path to exile
-1 curious obsession
Match 2 was blue moon. I don't remember game 1 much. I did fire off a spell pierce on two bloodmoons game 1, which in hindsight I probably should have just let resolve as the only thing it was going to shut me off of was kira although to be fair it would be difficult to hold up spell pierce and deploy threats unless I hit another island or two if I let them resolve. Game 2 he drew a bunch of creatures and I had a grip full of 3 drops with 2 lands out for like 2-3 turns. He didn't present a fast enough clock and eventually the disruption punched through. The images aren't great considering how much interaction the deck runs (Bolts, snaps, cryptics, electrolyze all target) which is why I boarded them out. I kept 1 in so I could copy a protection piece or his snapcaster mage if i needed to hit my negate, spell pierce, or path in game 2 but going down the full 4 is probably fine.
-3 phantasmal image
+Nimble Obstructionist
+negate
+eidolon of rhetoric
match 3 was infect, 2-0. Game 1 nebelgast herald just locked down his team. Either my opponent lets the tap down happen to try and run me out of dudes (which increases my clock) or risks tempo plays like quell your spell and tap your dude off the herald trigger. Game 2 he boarded out the glistner elves and brought in invisble stalker!? on the play he goes t2 stalker, t3 wild defiance, and then starting swinging in for like 7-8 damage a turn. I always bring in Eidolon of Rhetoric and it's just so great in this match. This is always a fun match up, as I feel it can go either way and games end up being kind of a puzzle.
-4 phantasmal image (he can kill it with a pump spell)
-2 curious obsession (too slow)
+Eidolon of Rhetoric
+2 Settle the Wreckage
+2 Blessed Alliance
+Negate
Regarding recent conversations:
This is going to be a lengthy point, but I feel like making the deck too aggro is a mistake - because there are tribes that just do it better. Bant Spirits nut opener would be land hierarch, land GoST, land COCO into two lords swing for 9 (geist 4, exalted trigger 1, angel trigger 4). Yes you're representing alot of damage next turn, but there is a decent swath of the field that doesn't care about that start or can disrupt it quite handily. Most bant lists are just hyper aggro focused and the only tempo plays you have are maybe a rattlechains to protect a key spirit (which there have been suggestions on trimming), spell queller, and nebelgast herald (which I've seen suggestions to trim entirely). I don't think this is correct, we can't put out a clock like elves, merfolk, humans, allies, etc.
Mutavault discussions seem to be in the aggro mindset. Often if it's going to be important enough to block, I've already expended cards and mana to build up a lethal board anyway. There are games were it may be okay, but you miss out on ETB triggers that moorland haunt gives, buffs to the mutavault also buff the token, except the token has build in evasion. If you do run mutavault, I think running it without nebelgast herald is a mistake. Herald is what is going to open up those avenues of attack for it to punch through if you want it.
In regards to trimming nebelgast herald, it's my best card against humans aside from path and worship/settle out of the side. It will also buy you several turns against crap like hollow one if they are off to a slightly slower start, especially if they make you discard your paths or interaction. It's not great against KCI/storm/ad naus - sure. It's great against everything else. It can singlehandedly lock down an ulamog or wormcoil from tron, stop prime time kills from amulet or titanbreach/bloom, taps down mantis riders, tap down mana sources from elves during their upkeep, shuts off reliquary combo if you time it right, and more. There are just so many great targets in every match up but control.
I'm personally going to run two remorseful cleric in the side in place of RIP and then probably run 4 supreme phantoms for a bit in place of 2 phantasmal image and the curious obsessions. I'm not sure supreme phantom is a card I want 4 of yet, as I like the tempo style of the deck a lot. Making it more aggro isn't where I want to be personally. I just feel like there are other tribes that tout that banner higher.
While I agree that the deck could use card advantage (what deck doesn't), I don't know that I would be interested in running a spirit cantrip. I've removed elvish visonary entirely from elves (many of the recent lists have cut them) and merfolk has 8 draw spells (silvergill/spreading seas) that give redundancy. I think I'd rather a card draw spirit probably just be another tempo creature or something that locks up the board a bit. Something like a spirit vyrn wingmare would have been fantastic imho.
Moved two spell pierce to the main (UW vial) and I've been impressed. Stomped KCI into the dirt g1 and g2 was a blow out after I brought in the extra hate.
I wasn't unhappy to see them vs ponza because they helped me develop and protect my land on turns 1-3.
Felt great against infect.
Feels great against mardu pyromancer
Feels great vs control
Feels great with anything running walkers.
Just really like it. I'll be jamming it for awhile and make sure it's not just a hot streak.
I intend to get into the Spirits archetype and since I play on a budget, I will stick to UW for the start. A first draft of what my deck will look like:
What do you guys think of Thalia? I like her in DnT-variations and other creature decks, but I am not sure how bad the lack of synergy will feel. Also the new Lord should help the clock in uninteractive MUs and make combat easier against creatures. I want to test Remorseful Cleric in the maindeck since I am used to midrange-infested metas, where I think the card will shine.
I would love to hear feedback and opinions. I am used to a Death and Taxes playstyle so my view of this decks strategy might not be completely correct just now - which is something I want to improve!
Thalia plays very poorly with path and obsession.
My 2c
Cons:
If you're used to the playstyle then it's not the end of the world, but she does make a decent chunk of the deck more expensive (vial, obsession and path gives 11 cards total in your list which is close to 20% of your deck).
She's also bad in multiples, which means you don't often want to see copies 2-4 unless they jump through hoops. This pushes you up to almost 14 cards, which is nearly a quarter of your deck, that doesn't play favorable with her.
Her mana denial plays poorly with the ramp of path. While we're often pathing to shave off a turn or two of our opponents clock, she's not getting in often because we're not swinging in with threats alongside her.
The uptick in humans has led to opponents being more savvy vs playing her. I just ignore her now and strand cards in my opponents hand if they have multiples and only expend removal of it's a x for 1 or she just needs to go so I can do my thing period.
Pros:
That being said, I've played her as a 3x and 4x and I've done well in an open meta at my LGS. When you want her and you get wanderer > Thalia > multiple spell quellers she's a monster.
Against smaller decks, like bant coco or elves she can swing in on the ground very easily while they try and set up.
You can sideboard out of spells to become more taxing, and impact the numbers above.
Having vial helps pay the tax while you continue to do your thing with deploying tempo based creatures.
She can be very punishing to spell heavy land light decks (like UR tempo decks).
Kat got 27th in the SCG open in Atlanta with Bant. Would be great to get a tournament report as I'm not sure what her other losses were from aside from burn.
Good show for the deck though. I may need to take bant out for a stretch once supreme phantom drops. I need to also just get another GoST because I only have 2. He plays very well with a lord build.
Sucks she was paired against burn. Was good to watch though. Game 2 she felt firmly in the drivers seat for awhile.
Played UW vial spirits at my LGS Friday (same as last report but with caverns in the manabase). Quick report below, went 3-1.
Match 1 was mardu pyromancer. Lost 2-1. I just couldnt stick anything meaningful after having my hand shredded game 1. I don't run enough removal to make the match worthwhile. Game 2 spell queller and some hexproof in response to my key threats let me tempo for the win. G3 I had 3 caverns and both moorland haunts. Cast like 2 guys the whole game.
Match 2 was jund. 2-1, biggest take away was giving myself a copy of goyf on ththe ground and chipping in for 1-4 every turn just added up with his mana base. nebelgast herald felt great.
Match 3 was lantern. Game one I have 3 spell queller win hand and see my opponent stirrings for a bridge (which I have no maindexk answer to). She tries an inquisition to clear the way for bridge next turn and I quell that. Next turn I quell the birdge. On t4 she drops land, inquisition me...after revealing another bridge on top for her draw. No way out of that. Match 2/3 I brought in negates, an echoing truth, and took out images/ojutais command. I saved mausoleum wanderer to counter whir of invention and was able to get there.
Match 4 was humans. Game 1 he mulls to five and I blow up his images with nebelgast heralds (hehehe). Match 2 he has an absurd start with t2 lieutenant, t3 image it, t4 another lieutenant and image that too. Anyway, I had worship t4 and 2-3 dudes out by then, and they can't interact with the enchantment.
Deck felt great and I think mardu pyromancer just felt like I was on the bad side of variance. Discard seems to hurt me more on this deck than other decks. Dunno if that's actually the case or not but it always feels bad when my 2-3 drops are stripped from me.
Considering trying ancestral vision down the road. Probably in place of 2 obsessions, one image and one command. At least until the new spirits drop.
Started messing with a black splash last night to get a feel for it. On paper my ideal starts don't lead to a faster kill, it just further secures it at the later turns. Anyway, decklist below and some musings afterwards:
Lots of weird numbers because I was trying stuff out.
1. The deck didn't really increase my clock by any significant margin. I'm treating sorin like a lord, but on curve he's only adding an extra 2-4 damage typically per swing. The lifelink helps, but that's almost a moot point when I'm taking more to begin with to just be able to cast him.
2. Lingering souls felt okay? Messing around against humans, they can still drop a mantis rider or bulk up the 1/2 block flier to block the tokens and crack back for a meaningful race. It threw me off of when I would fire off spell queller or other flash plays with rattlechains.
3. The deck is spell heavy right now with 35 cards being lands/spells. So 25 dudes, only 4 of which are 1 drops. I want discard and better removal - but that directly impacts the amount of gas I have to pour into vial on turns 2-3.
4. With the introduction of another functional sacrifice ability in remorseful cleric, liliana, heretical healer seems interesting. Her mana cost would be atrocious for a 3rd color splash to the deck but remorseful cleric, wanderer and selfless give the deck 12 ways of flipping her and she can return a few things before she goes out the door and leaves a zombie around to boot. She plays very well with vial as well (flash her in after blocks are declared, flip, return a dude that just died and leave her hanging around with a new zombie token.
5. I wanted to test bloodghast, as him getting buffs from the lords seems particularly strong, but the deck as built didn't have any ways of sticking him in the yard. Streex mentioned brutality as a decent option for us, and while I do really like the card I feel like ghast is asking too much of the deck space wise at that point for a mediocre impact. Vampire tribal just has so many more ways of binning and recurring him and he's not even great there.
6. The removal options are pretty wide open, but dismember was still looking really great and at that point the black only saves me a couple life from time to time.
7. Fetching black early is great, but it's never going to be relevant before t4 (cast souls t3 to flash is back on t4, or sorin t4) at the earliest. If I add discard it could potentially throw off my flow for turns 1-3. Obviously I want T1 vial, t2 double discard vial in wanderer and go ham from there but that's just not realistic.
8. Given the amount of sac guys we'll have, I wonder if rally the ancestors is it worth consideration? It's slow, but it could be a blowout on setting up blocks, removal for graveyards, or getting wanderer/queller back to counter a big payoff spell. Toying with the idea of flip lili is what led me down this path, the only issue is that it's purely defensive because we can't give our guys haste or set up a sac drain kill without deck concessions elsewhere.
9. Is tormented soul enough of a payoff in a lord heavy build to just be a beater? Not sure if he's worth it but he does wear curious obsession quite well. Promo art is pretty rad...
Hi guys, new fella here. I'll admit I have not read through the thread. I have some questions in light of the new M19 hotness headed your way:
1) Auras: With Drogskol Captain and Phantasmal Image to copy him, plus Kira and Selfless Spirit and Rattlechains (and even Geist of Saint Traft in some builds) I wonder about a miser's Curious Obsession, or even two; or one only of Steel of the Godhead. Steel in particular could help maindeck against Burn, maybe--and it seems especially good with Geist.
2) Utility Lands: Some players run Moorland Haunt. I could see running one of these, but I'd be inclined to try to find room for some number of Mutavaults in a build with a second lord, instead. Thoughts?
3: Lingering Souls: Does the second lord push the deck towards a minor B splash? Maybe play it in the side?
That is 52 cards. Does the deck like removal (Path, Vapor Snag)? Counterspells? More tempo/disruption (Nebelgast Herald seems like it could be really important)? More hexproof (GoST, or a second Kira in the main)? My sense is that the build was not settled even before the two new hits in M19.
I asked a lot of questions, thanks for reading. Responses appreciated!
[EDIT]: My experience with Humans suggests that it is important to have a good T1 play, especially with Vial, so on T2 you can build momentum by playing two threats after a T1 Vial. Clearly, we have no Champion of the Parish-caliber opener, but have any Vial players tried Topplegeist or any of the other 1 CMC Modern-legal Spirits?
Looks to me like the deck has an excess of playable options, now. That's a good place to be!
Streex can offer you a much more comprehensive answer, but if this is time sensitive just my quick 2 cents since I've been running the deck:
1. I'm personally a big fan of curious obsession. There is a reason other vial/similar decks drift towards card advantage (humans turn to bob/canopy, elves sometimes run visionary, merfolk has spreading seas or silvergill adept, faeries runs ancestral vision). Obsession has been the easiest draw engine I've found to date and I'm usually always happy to see it. Bant decks have run tamiyo, field researcher to fog down fliers and draw cards in the past, or coco to hit a lord or two. Either way, most lists are running something to fuel you into turns 5-6.
2. I think the utility of flying, activating during your opponents turn, and building inevitability is what makes the haunt get the nod over mutavault. The deck doesn't tangle well on the ground and even just 1 mantis rider can cause issues sometimes (and that's not even a big body for modern) and he's tiny compared to most ground creatures. The deck can be very mana hungry some turns so activating haunt to get damage in while leaving mana up for queller can be a big deal.
3. I haven't personally tested the application of lingering souls with two lords now, but my gut is that it's another 3 drop that needs a more painful mana base to work out well. We don't have the discard/removal of mardu/abzan to back it up either. Given how poor burn can be, I'm less excited for the black splash. Although that being said, you could open up a build with lingering souls and sorin, solemn visitor and recup huge chunks of life while building a clock. I think the build would be very different and I sorin, 4 lingering souls, and 2-4 removal (or discard if B) is a lot of deck slots devoted to no creatures for vial. I think it's just a different deck. It also doesn't allow us to play at instant speed as well since so much of what B brings is sorcery speed (sorin, souls, collective brutality, discard). At that point, what are we doing better than mardu phromancer or BW tokens?
What's your thought on Spirit of the Labyrinth as more taxes?
It maybe deserves a spot in the SB?
She doesn't fly, so this may keep her out from the mainboard, but almost every deck in modern likes to draw.
And she is a 3/1 so pretty aggressive on her own.
I don't think it is as good as it seems. It's fragile and it's really just locking down a handful of cards. opt, remand, electrolyze, cryptic command are all happening during your turn. dark confidant doesn't actually draw, it just puts it in your hand. Same with ancient stirrings or cards like it - you reveal and put in your hand. All the tutors are like this actually. Chord/coco bypass by just putting dudes on the field.
If the effect were worth while I think we'd see a lot more use from notion thief in modern and we don't. There are a few big payoff cards, like Jace that make it gross to flash in, but he still has relevant modes and can tick up to win eventually.
As you mentioned, no flying is a big deal.
I think the SB slot would be of better use elsewhere. It's great against serum visions and maybe hollow one decks as a gotcha card if you can have it survive the random discard effects and keep it around (this card does stomp all over goblin lore and burning inquiry if you flash it in.l). I think path is more applicable against hollow one (and the new cleric along with it) and we already have a good control match up.
I'm not a fan really. If hollow one is prevalent in your meta then it's a great SB for it though as 1 lord lets it tangle with hollow one, and 2 lets it tangle with the delve threats.
Has anyone considered running 3-4x Eidolon of Rhetoric MB as a lockpiece? Being able to play instant speed allows us to get around it pretty easily, as we can play on our opponents turn, and Aether Vial gives us another way around it as well. However, it would probably be most powerful on T2, but has the least amount of synergy with Bant...
Thoughts?
I liked the idea of the Red Eidolon as a lock piece, just not the idea of the RR casting cost, and the fact that it actually hurts us pretty bad.
Could run caverns, vials, unclaimed territory and trim the spell slots. Just make a variant of the humans mana base and the RR won't be much of an issue.
Havent tried either, but great revel is intriguing vs decks like storm.
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giddeon, ally of zendikar already felt fineish sometimes, as there are decks that super struggle with a stream of 2/2s (like UW control). She feels like a strict upgrade. If she's not in danger of getting picked off too early from a bolt/gut shot you can stick a 4/4 out that can be a serious road block to things like bolt and Phoenix. After that it's just gravy. Her tokens also chew through colonnades very well.
I could see it panning out for the slower builds or post sideboard for grindier decks. Sucks she doesn't play well with GoST but oh well.
UW feels like it plays much better against interactive matches with a solid game 1. It just can't turn up as much pressure as bant as quickly if your opponent stumbles (t3 coco into double lord).
At least in my experience this has been the case. I prefer UW but it plays better for my meta. In an open field I'd more than likely run bant because if even a few of your matches are you going hierarch, traft, coco hitting double captain then you're that much further into a tournament because lets be real...what is beating that? Take 9, take lethal while your opponent has gone into maybe t3? All your opponent can do is hold up mana to stop the coco or removal on the hierarch game 1 against those hands.
blessed alliance, path to exile, dismember are fine for removing key targets.
Counters and queller can really put a damper on the biggest plays. I would avoid unified will and look to cards like unsubstantiate to give you an mode to use vs vial/cavern heavy tribal decks. I've greatly enjoyed spell pierce as a 2 of in the main - but I board d out of counters in these matches.
Humans has an incredibly hard time killing you through a worship. Elves isn't impacted by it. GB can just drain kill you. GW can ballista down your board and then dome you for whatever they need unless you have the hexproof lock - at which point they just dig for a rec sage. Rec save may already be coming in because of vials anyway - esp finally if they are worried about grafdiggers cage.
Just some notes from my games at the LGS with UW vial.
I don't think it's strong enough. You open yourself up to sullcrack in response and tempo yourself for a turn without an active vial. Also, it needs to be fired off somewhere between 3-15 life ideally a even higher minimum then that. You'll get a lot more mileage from incremental gains from other cards I think.
Considering testing blink of an eye as a two of for my meta. As is I can't beat bridge if it resolves before board. Unsure, I'll let you guys know how it does.
I've been so happy with spell pierce in the main and it rarely gets taken out. Happy with it against all but super heavy creature matches (humans, elves, allies, slivers).
There is a window during combat, someone more rules and phase savvy can probably go into more detail about this, that's after damage is dealt to cast spells that can still impact creatures that had attacked and or dealt damage.
Opponent swung in with a inkmoth nexus and a glistner elf (declare attackers). I blocked the elf (declare blockers) went to damage and ate some infect points and let my dude trade with elf. I then fired off a blessed alliance at end of combat step to kill the nexus. If I fired it off before blocks during thh attackers phase I may not have gotten the trade (as all pump would have just been dumped on the surviving creature). if I fired it off after blocks were declared he would have just sacced the blocked creature. This let me get both dudes off the board and eventually turn the game around as he was forced to set up and protect another threat at that point.
Thanks for the tournament write up Shawn! Cheers on a solid performance. I agree with you on nebelgast as it just feels so great in so many matches. I tend to view it as standard is looking at goblin chainwhirler - back breaking for certain decks and a passable beater against control. The card feels great when I'm behind and at parity. It's fine when I'm ahead.
@maartendq I totally understand the meta call. If I was facing down a bevy of control every week I would also change my list.
I'm glad the deck had such a great show this week. I definately think it's T1 (bant coco or UW vial) and will be meta once more people pick up the deck. This is one I'm glad I moved on early.
2 hallowed fountain
2 cavern of souls
2 moorland haunt
3 seachrome coast
4 island
3 plains
4 aether vial
4 path to exile
2 spell pierce
2 curious obsession
4 rattlechains
4 selfless spirit
4 phantasmal image
4 spell queller
3 nebelgast herald
4 drogskol captain
1 kira, great-glass spinner
1 Kataki, War's wage
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Nimble Obstructionist
2 Worship
2 Settle the Wreckage
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Negate
2 Rest in Peace
1 Hurkyll's Recall
1 Echoing Truth
Modern FNM 3-0, discussion of matches in spoiler. was KCI, Blue Moon, and then Infect (UG).
The KCI game 1, I was on the draw and was able to spellqueller his first KCI. After that I just protected the queen and rode out damage for a turn or two. I had a second queller in hand for the next KCI. Game 2 was 4 rounds I think, as I was able to protect my disruption pieces and had an early game eidolon of rhetoric he had a hard time getting rid of.
+echoing truth
+eidolon of rhetoric
+Hurkyll's recall
+the two rest in peace
+kataki
-4 path to exile
-1 curious obsession
Match 2 was blue moon. I don't remember game 1 much. I did fire off a spell pierce on two bloodmoons game 1, which in hindsight I probably should have just let resolve as the only thing it was going to shut me off of was kira although to be fair it would be difficult to hold up spell pierce and deploy threats unless I hit another island or two if I let them resolve. Game 2 he drew a bunch of creatures and I had a grip full of 3 drops with 2 lands out for like 2-3 turns. He didn't present a fast enough clock and eventually the disruption punched through. The images aren't great considering how much interaction the deck runs (Bolts, snaps, cryptics, electrolyze all target) which is why I boarded them out. I kept 1 in so I could copy a protection piece or his snapcaster mage if i needed to hit my negate, spell pierce, or path in game 2 but going down the full 4 is probably fine.
-3 phantasmal image
+Nimble Obstructionist
+negate
+eidolon of rhetoric
match 3 was infect, 2-0. Game 1 nebelgast herald just locked down his team. Either my opponent lets the tap down happen to try and run me out of dudes (which increases my clock) or risks tempo plays like quell your spell and tap your dude off the herald trigger. Game 2 he boarded out the glistner elves and brought in invisble stalker!? on the play he goes t2 stalker, t3 wild defiance, and then starting swinging in for like 7-8 damage a turn. I always bring in Eidolon of Rhetoric and it's just so great in this match. This is always a fun match up, as I feel it can go either way and games end up being kind of a puzzle.
-4 phantasmal image (he can kill it with a pump spell)
-2 curious obsession (too slow)
+Eidolon of Rhetoric
+2 Settle the Wreckage
+2 Blessed Alliance
+Negate
Regarding recent conversations:
This is going to be a lengthy point, but I feel like making the deck too aggro is a mistake - because there are tribes that just do it better. Bant Spirits nut opener would be land hierarch, land GoST, land COCO into two lords swing for 9 (geist 4, exalted trigger 1, angel trigger 4). Yes you're representing alot of damage next turn, but there is a decent swath of the field that doesn't care about that start or can disrupt it quite handily. Most bant lists are just hyper aggro focused and the only tempo plays you have are maybe a rattlechains to protect a key spirit (which there have been suggestions on trimming), spell queller, and nebelgast herald (which I've seen suggestions to trim entirely). I don't think this is correct, we can't put out a clock like elves, merfolk, humans, allies, etc.
Mutavault discussions seem to be in the aggro mindset. Often if it's going to be important enough to block, I've already expended cards and mana to build up a lethal board anyway. There are games were it may be okay, but you miss out on ETB triggers that moorland haunt gives, buffs to the mutavault also buff the token, except the token has build in evasion. If you do run mutavault, I think running it without nebelgast herald is a mistake. Herald is what is going to open up those avenues of attack for it to punch through if you want it.
In regards to trimming nebelgast herald, it's my best card against humans aside from path and worship/settle out of the side. It will also buy you several turns against crap like hollow one if they are off to a slightly slower start, especially if they make you discard your paths or interaction. It's not great against KCI/storm/ad naus - sure. It's great against everything else. It can singlehandedly lock down an ulamog or wormcoil from tron, stop prime time kills from amulet or titanbreach/bloom, taps down mantis riders, tap down mana sources from elves during their upkeep, shuts off reliquary combo if you time it right, and more. There are just so many great targets in every match up but control.
I'm personally going to run two remorseful cleric in the side in place of RIP and then probably run 4 supreme phantoms for a bit in place of 2 phantasmal image and the curious obsessions. I'm not sure supreme phantom is a card I want 4 of yet, as I like the tempo style of the deck a lot. Making it more aggro isn't where I want to be personally. I just feel like there are other tribes that tout that banner higher.
While I agree that the deck could use card advantage (what deck doesn't), I don't know that I would be interested in running a spirit cantrip. I've removed elvish visonary entirely from elves (many of the recent lists have cut them) and merfolk has 8 draw spells (silvergill/spreading seas) that give redundancy. I think I'd rather a card draw spirit probably just be another tempo creature or something that locks up the board a bit. Something like a spirit vyrn wingmare would have been fantastic imho.
I wasn't unhappy to see them vs ponza because they helped me develop and protect my land on turns 1-3.
Felt great against infect.
Feels great against mardu pyromancer
Feels great vs control
Feels great with anything running walkers.
Just really like it. I'll be jamming it for awhile and make sure it's not just a hot streak.
Thalia plays very poorly with path and obsession.
My 2c
Cons:
If you're used to the playstyle then it's not the end of the world, but she does make a decent chunk of the deck more expensive (vial, obsession and path gives 11 cards total in your list which is close to 20% of your deck).
She's also bad in multiples, which means you don't often want to see copies 2-4 unless they jump through hoops. This pushes you up to almost 14 cards, which is nearly a quarter of your deck, that doesn't play favorable with her.
Her mana denial plays poorly with the ramp of path. While we're often pathing to shave off a turn or two of our opponents clock, she's not getting in often because we're not swinging in with threats alongside her.
The uptick in humans has led to opponents being more savvy vs playing her. I just ignore her now and strand cards in my opponents hand if they have multiples and only expend removal of it's a x for 1 or she just needs to go so I can do my thing period.
Pros:
That being said, I've played her as a 3x and 4x and I've done well in an open meta at my LGS. When you want her and you get wanderer > Thalia > multiple spell quellers she's a monster.
Against smaller decks, like bant coco or elves she can swing in on the ground very easily while they try and set up.
You can sideboard out of spells to become more taxing, and impact the numbers above.
Having vial helps pay the tax while you continue to do your thing with deploying tempo based creatures.
She can be very punishing to spell heavy land light decks (like UR tempo decks).
Hope this helps!
Good show for the deck though. I may need to take bant out for a stretch once supreme phantom drops. I need to also just get another GoST because I only have 2. He plays very well with a lord build.
Played UW vial spirits at my LGS Friday (same as last report but with caverns in the manabase). Quick report below, went 3-1.
Match 1 was mardu pyromancer. Lost 2-1. I just couldnt stick anything meaningful after having my hand shredded game 1. I don't run enough removal to make the match worthwhile. Game 2 spell queller and some hexproof in response to my key threats let me tempo for the win. G3 I had 3 caverns and both moorland haunts. Cast like 2 guys the whole game.
Match 2 was jund. 2-1, biggest take away was giving myself a copy of goyf on ththe ground and chipping in for 1-4 every turn just added up with his mana base. nebelgast herald felt great.
Match 3 was lantern. Game one I have 3 spell queller win hand and see my opponent stirrings for a bridge (which I have no maindexk answer to). She tries an inquisition to clear the way for bridge next turn and I quell that. Next turn I quell the birdge. On t4 she drops land, inquisition me...after revealing another bridge on top for her draw. No way out of that. Match 2/3 I brought in negates, an echoing truth, and took out images/ojutais command. I saved mausoleum wanderer to counter whir of invention and was able to get there.
Match 4 was humans. Game 1 he mulls to five and I blow up his images with nebelgast heralds (hehehe). Match 2 he has an absurd start with t2 lieutenant, t3 image it, t4 another lieutenant and image that too. Anyway, I had worship t4 and 2-3 dudes out by then, and they can't interact with the enchantment.
Deck felt great and I think mardu pyromancer just felt like I was on the bad side of variance. Discard seems to hurt me more on this deck than other decks. Dunno if that's actually the case or not but it always feels bad when my 2-3 drops are stripped from me.
Considering trying ancestral vision down the road. Probably in place of 2 obsessions, one image and one command. At least until the new spirits drop.
1 watery grave
2 hallowed fountain
4 foooded strand
2 polluted delta
1 marsh flats
2 moorland haunt
2 seachrome coast
1 darkslick shores
2 plains
2 island
3 path to exile
2 curious obsession
4 lingering souls
2 sorin, solemn visitor
4 mausoleum wanderer
4 rattle chains
4 selfless spirit
3 phantasmal image
4 spell queller
4 drogskol captain
2 nebelgast herald
Lots of weird numbers because I was trying stuff out.
1. The deck didn't really increase my clock by any significant margin. I'm treating sorin like a lord, but on curve he's only adding an extra 2-4 damage typically per swing. The lifelink helps, but that's almost a moot point when I'm taking more to begin with to just be able to cast him.
2. Lingering souls felt okay? Messing around against humans, they can still drop a mantis rider or bulk up the 1/2 block flier to block the tokens and crack back for a meaningful race. It threw me off of when I would fire off spell queller or other flash plays with rattlechains.
3. The deck is spell heavy right now with 35 cards being lands/spells. So 25 dudes, only 4 of which are 1 drops. I want discard and better removal - but that directly impacts the amount of gas I have to pour into vial on turns 2-3.
4. With the introduction of another functional sacrifice ability in remorseful cleric, liliana, heretical healer seems interesting. Her mana cost would be atrocious for a 3rd color splash to the deck but remorseful cleric, wanderer and selfless give the deck 12 ways of flipping her and she can return a few things before she goes out the door and leaves a zombie around to boot. She plays very well with vial as well (flash her in after blocks are declared, flip, return a dude that just died and leave her hanging around with a new zombie token.
5. I wanted to test bloodghast, as him getting buffs from the lords seems particularly strong, but the deck as built didn't have any ways of sticking him in the yard. Streex mentioned brutality as a decent option for us, and while I do really like the card I feel like ghast is asking too much of the deck space wise at that point for a mediocre impact. Vampire tribal just has so many more ways of binning and recurring him and he's not even great there.
6. The removal options are pretty wide open, but dismember was still looking really great and at that point the black only saves me a couple life from time to time.
7. Fetching black early is great, but it's never going to be relevant before t4 (cast souls t3 to flash is back on t4, or sorin t4) at the earliest. If I add discard it could potentially throw off my flow for turns 1-3. Obviously I want T1 vial, t2 double discard vial in wanderer and go ham from there but that's just not realistic.
8. Given the amount of sac guys we'll have, I wonder if rally the ancestors is it worth consideration? It's slow, but it could be a blowout on setting up blocks, removal for graveyards, or getting wanderer/queller back to counter a big payoff spell. Toying with the idea of flip lili is what led me down this path, the only issue is that it's purely defensive because we can't give our guys haste or set up a sac drain kill without deck concessions elsewhere.
9. Is tormented soul enough of a payoff in a lord heavy build to just be a beater? Not sure if he's worth it but he does wear curious obsession quite well. Promo art is pretty rad...
Streex can offer you a much more comprehensive answer, but if this is time sensitive just my quick 2 cents since I've been running the deck:
1. I'm personally a big fan of curious obsession. There is a reason other vial/similar decks drift towards card advantage (humans turn to bob/canopy, elves sometimes run visionary, merfolk has spreading seas or silvergill adept, faeries runs ancestral vision). Obsession has been the easiest draw engine I've found to date and I'm usually always happy to see it. Bant decks have run tamiyo, field researcher to fog down fliers and draw cards in the past, or coco to hit a lord or two. Either way, most lists are running something to fuel you into turns 5-6.
2. I think the utility of flying, activating during your opponents turn, and building inevitability is what makes the haunt get the nod over mutavault. The deck doesn't tangle well on the ground and even just 1 mantis rider can cause issues sometimes (and that's not even a big body for modern) and he's tiny compared to most ground creatures. The deck can be very mana hungry some turns so activating haunt to get damage in while leaving mana up for queller can be a big deal.
3. I haven't personally tested the application of lingering souls with two lords now, but my gut is that it's another 3 drop that needs a more painful mana base to work out well. We don't have the discard/removal of mardu/abzan to back it up either. Given how poor burn can be, I'm less excited for the black splash. Although that being said, you could open up a build with lingering souls and sorin, solemn visitor and recup huge chunks of life while building a clock. I think the build would be very different and I sorin, 4 lingering souls, and 2-4 removal (or discard if B) is a lot of deck slots devoted to no creatures for vial. I think it's just a different deck. It also doesn't allow us to play at instant speed as well since so much of what B brings is sorcery speed (sorin, souls, collective brutality, discard). At that point, what are we doing better than mardu phromancer or BW tokens?
I don't think it is as good as it seems. It's fragile and it's really just locking down a handful of cards. opt, remand, electrolyze, cryptic command are all happening during your turn. dark confidant doesn't actually draw, it just puts it in your hand. Same with ancient stirrings or cards like it - you reveal and put in your hand. All the tutors are like this actually. Chord/coco bypass by just putting dudes on the field.
If the effect were worth while I think we'd see a lot more use from notion thief in modern and we don't. There are a few big payoff cards, like Jace that make it gross to flash in, but he still has relevant modes and can tick up to win eventually.
As you mentioned, no flying is a big deal.
I think the SB slot would be of better use elsewhere. It's great against serum visions and maybe hollow one decks as a gotcha card if you can have it survive the random discard effects and keep it around (this card does stomp all over goblin lore and burning inquiry if you flash it in.l). I think path is more applicable against hollow one (and the new cleric along with it) and we already have a good control match up.
I'm not a fan really. If hollow one is prevalent in your meta then it's a great SB for it though as 1 lord lets it tangle with hollow one, and 2 lets it tangle with the delve threats.
Could run caverns, vials, unclaimed territory and trim the spell slots. Just make a variant of the humans mana base and the RR won't be much of an issue.
Havent tried either, but great revel is intriguing vs decks like storm.