I haven't tried Karn in this shell, but my gut feeling is that he doesn't do enough for us. I'm willing to be proven wrong tho, and will add him to my "maybe" pile. Perhaps with some Treasure Maps for added artifacts to buff his tokens?
I was unimpressed by little Vraska for the couple weeks I ran her, though others have had more success with her. I'd like her more in a recursion-based GBx (blue for Muldrotha is interesting) than in the "goodstuff" flavour it seems like most of us are gravitating toward.
Of the two, I'd prolly lean to Karn > Vraska simply because as a turn 4 play, he actually does something with his +1, where Vraska has to set you back to get value from her +2.
Gonna try slotting in some number of Adventurous Impulse. On the face of it, I think it's a solid turn 1 play (barring etb tapped of course) and isn't dead later on either. Dunno how much I'll be playing in the next week because life happens, but I'll report results as/when I have them.
Going forward would you make any changes? Aside from CarnyT are there any other “all star” cards that you’d promote?
Re: Arch of Orazca, I have found it immensely valuable. It drew me out of a couple massive land gluts against one of the red decks, and is an outstanding source of CA for the control matches. I don’t know that the 23 land/4 elf lists could get away with it, but for me on 25 it’s easy to find room for it.
3-0-1 at FNM tonight with mostly the list I had from earlier in the week. Sideboard is kinda wonky because some requested cards weren't brought and I had to make do what was on-hand.
Yeah, there are a couple cards missing from the board - I had the full 15 but don't remember what the last 2 were (so clearly I didn't use them!)
Beat up on the bye and a pair of mono red decks (1 running Flame of Keld, the other on burn + Rekindling Phoenix, and apparently Experimental Frenzy but I only saw those post-match). Draw was vs Esper control, and this was where I really missed the Duresses that I'd planned on having in the board.
Ripjaws were stupid good against the red decks (those and Wx are the reason I had them in my original list, and was actually glad that I "had" to run them tonight). Both matches were kinda uneventful. The FoK guy bricked hard in game 1 despite back to back FoKs, drawing only a Shock when I was at 5 (which he had to use on one of my dudes), and I valued him out in game 2 with a curve of Moment of Craving > dude > Contempt > Doomy > Carnage Tyrant. The other guy ran into mana issues in both games, and I was never really threatened. I will say that the maindeck Deathgorge was a beating. I cast it 4 times during the first game, eating a couple of Phoenixes along the way and keeping me at a very healthy life total.
The Esper match was really well played, aside from game 1, which was just silly: I cast exactly two spells: AssTrophy on T3 on a Search, and Carny T on T6 which swung 3 times for the win. He took the second game with all the removal and eventually got there with Chromium. Game 3 ended in a draw and it honestly was a toss up as to who could have won it - when it ended he had Teferi on board at low loyalty and a reasonable handful of cards, while I played Doom Whisperer on my final turn with Carnage Tyrant in hand (because whatever).
Takeaways really are that the sideboard hand disruption is definitely necessary for the control matches, and despite me taking it out earlier in the week I think the Ripjaws stay in. I didn't miss the Deadeye Trackers that I'd wanted as much as I thought, though there is still a case for them I think. More to brew of course but I'm feeling good about where my pile is going!
Can anyone else think of decent graveyard filling cards in the 1-4 cmc range? Please leave suggestions if you do. I'm going to start testing my more graveyard based build again.
Searching for "graveyard" and "discard", limiting to 4cc and below (with one exception), yields this list:
I've been on 3 Moment of Craving in my board for a bit, and I bring them in all the time. I'll have to try Fungal Infection to see how they do if U tempo really starts showing up in force (I faced 2 of them last week, so prolly?).
I'm up to the full 4 main in my test build right now. It's amazing against WW, U tempo and drakes/phoenix out of the box, and by the time decks start dropping Lyras and Doom Whisperers, it's almost always ready for them too. And even on an empty board, 3 power on turn 2 (with reach, which I keep forgetting about) is a solid rate.
Still working on a decent sideboard plan for control. Currently I have 3 Duress and 1 each Plaguecrafter and Vraska, Relic Seeker. I take out a Cast Down, 3 Ravenous Chupacabra and a Doom Whisperer. Dropping DW may be incorrect but I don't want to lose my early pressure so that seems like the best option. (Feel free to tell me I'm totally off base there!)
Based on feedback from this thread, here's my current build for reference:
So what do we do (if anything) about W/x Weenie? I know that the top 8 was not truly representative of the standard meta, but clearly those decks have something going for them. I'm really not a fan of trying to lower our curve to match them (won't happen anyway), and I don't know how I feel about running maindeck removal like Golden Demise / Ritual of Soot (mostly because when we need to play them -- early -- they crush us too).
I'm already on a pair of Kraul Harpooners main, and I might bring that up to 3 or even 4. I'm also considering dumping Merfolk Branchwalker in favour of the full set of Seekers' Squire as a better blocker (that an explore'd Squire can also survive a Finality is gravy). I'm also considering making room for some Druid of the Cowl and make bigger 4-drops such as Ripjaw Raptor to clog the ground.
That said, I'm sure doing all that would just wreck our other matchups. So I'm wondering, what maindeck changes (if any) are going to have the biggest bang in the weenie match while not costing us significant percentages elsewhere?
Hey, thanks for taking the time to comment. Really appreciate it.
Find // Finality is a card I've not actually evaluated since plugging them into the deck. I'll put them on my watchlist as I do more testing. You're right, I do tend to use the front half much more often, and don't have a lot of early drops to really make the back half shine. Hmmm...
A single Duress is interesting. My first iteration of this list featured 3 Kitesail Freebooters main as they filled a similar role, as my past experience with Rock lists (back in the days of the O.G. Rock) was that mainddeck discard was an essential tool. Again, hmmm...
As far as the 1-ofs goes, yeah it's sketchy without reliable tutoring (I miss my Vampiric Tutors!). More testing is needed to tell me if I'm on the right track here or just got lucky with some of my draws. It almost feels like the graveyard-based Stitcher's Supplier etc. lists are the ones that have the better tutoring options, just in a slightly different form. I'm not convinced enough to switch my focus (yet), but I'll noodle around with it.
On the Elves plan... I find it difficult to justify slots for a card that really only has an impact on T1/2, and is a progressively worse topdeck as the game goes on. I'd rather run cards that have value in more stages of the game. Willing to admit I'm wrong and/or undervaluing their potential, but my first list ran them and they just felt so bad.
I definitely think I need to reevaluate my curve. Trying not to go overboard in light of this weekend's PT Top 8 (that's a ton and a half of weenies).
1 part tourney report, 17 parts looking for feedback on this list...
Just came back from a 3-0-1 finish at 17-person FNM. (Technically I went 4-0 but we split in advance as the only undefeated players going into the last round.) I beat Mono-U 2-1 and 2-0; Izzet Phoenix/Drakes 2-1; and Boros Angels (feat. blue) 2-1. Mana stumbles were prevalent on both sides quite often, so I can't say that I'm confident in taking my results at full face value.
That out of the way, I'll post the list, some of my thoughts, and then let better players than I have a go at telling me where it can be improved.
So yeah, there are a lot of 2- and 3-ofs. That's deliberate at this point as I'm trying to evaluate a lot of cards with not a lot of free time to do it. Plus, I've always favoured toolbox style decks (just wish I had some reliable tutoring!) The main feels really close to correct for my play style, but I know it can be improved.
Cards I like:
The Harpooners are outstanding with the flyer-based decks out there (and they are an easy cut otherwise).
I'm really high on the Reapers for card advantage, and find Journey to be outstanding if it can get going.
Arch only got played once, but 3-4 extra cards there made a huge difference.
The singleton Deathgorge and Bronto are pretty random but I think they have justified places.
Cards I don't like / have questions about:
I'm not on board with making room for Lawnmower Elves at all.
Should I make room for 1-2 more Folly? I prefer to limit my ETB tapped lands but maybe I'm overly cautious in only running 2 (plus a guildgate)?
Consistent explore guys vs. silver bullets?
Not totally sold on baby Vraska.
As far as the board is concerned:
My big question marks are Izoni (for the mirror?) and the Raptors (against red).
Deadeyes look really sketchy (and prolly they are), but they single-handedly gave me the win against Izzet so for now they've earned a repeat appearance.
I considered some number of Wild Growth Walkers, but with only 8 explore guys main and the Trackers not being a board-in option for decks where I'd want WGW, I don't feel like they would be reliable enough.
I've always done best with midrange (particularly The Rock flavour) decks, so I want to do what I can to make this work better. Thanks in advance for all advice!
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I was unimpressed by little Vraska for the couple weeks I ran her, though others have had more success with her. I'd like her more in a recursion-based GBx (blue for Muldrotha is interesting) than in the "goodstuff" flavour it seems like most of us are gravitating toward.
Of the two, I'd prolly lean to Karn > Vraska simply because as a turn 4 play, he actually does something with his +1, where Vraska has to set you back to get value from her +2.
Going forward would you make any changes? Aside from CarnyT are there any other “all star” cards that you’d promote?
Re: Arch of Orazca, I have found it immensely valuable. It drew me out of a couple massive land gluts against one of the red decks, and is an outstanding source of CA for the control matches. I don’t know that the 23 land/4 elf lists could get away with it, but for me on 25 it’s easy to find room for it.
9 Forest
1 Golgari Guildgate
2 Memorial to Folly
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Swamp
4 Woodland Cemetery
4 Kraul Harpooner
4 Seekers' Squire
2 Assassin's Trophy
1 Cast Down
4 Jadelight Ranger
2 Midnight Reaper
1 Journey to Eternity
1 Golgari Findbroker
3 Ravenous Chupacabra
3 Vraska's Contempt
1 Doom Whisperer
1 The Eldest Reborn
2 Vivien Reid
2 Carnage Tyrant
1 Arguel's Blood Fast
1 Cast Down
1 Doom Whisperer
1 Fungal Infection
2 Golden Demise
3 Moment of Craving
1 Plaguecrafter
2 Ripjaw Raptor
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
Beat up on the bye and a pair of mono red decks (1 running Flame of Keld, the other on burn + Rekindling Phoenix, and apparently Experimental Frenzy but I only saw those post-match). Draw was vs Esper control, and this was where I really missed the Duresses that I'd planned on having in the board.
Ripjaws were stupid good against the red decks (those and Wx are the reason I had them in my original list, and was actually glad that I "had" to run them tonight). Both matches were kinda uneventful. The FoK guy bricked hard in game 1 despite back to back FoKs, drawing only a Shock when I was at 5 (which he had to use on one of my dudes), and I valued him out in game 2 with a curve of Moment of Craving > dude > Contempt > Doomy > Carnage Tyrant. The other guy ran into mana issues in both games, and I was never really threatened. I will say that the maindeck Deathgorge was a beating. I cast it 4 times during the first game, eating a couple of Phoenixes along the way and keeping me at a very healthy life total.
The Esper match was really well played, aside from game 1, which was just silly: I cast exactly two spells: AssTrophy on T3 on a Search, and Carny T on T6 which swung 3 times for the win. He took the second game with all the removal and eventually got there with Chromium. Game 3 ended in a draw and it honestly was a toss up as to who could have won it - when it ended he had Teferi on board at low loyalty and a reasonable handful of cards, while I played Doom Whisperer on my final turn with Carnage Tyrant in hand (because whatever).
Takeaways really are that the sideboard hand disruption is definitely necessary for the control matches, and despite me taking it out earlier in the week I think the Ripjaws stay in. I didn't miss the Deadeye Trackers that I'd wanted as much as I thought, though there is still a case for them I think. More to brew of course but I'm feeling good about where my pile is going!
Searching for "graveyard" and "discard", limiting to 4cc and below (with one exception), yields this list:
- Glowspore Shaman
- Charnel Troll
- Mephitic Vapors
- Tomb Robber
- Whisper Agent
- Dark Bargain
- Emperor's Vanguard
- Liliana, Untouched by Death
- Price of Fame
- World Shaper
- Macabre Waltz
- Erstwhile Trooper
- Fraying Omnipotence
No comments on how good or bad they might be, but it's a smaller set to test from at least.Re:
I'm up to the full 4 main in my test build right now. It's amazing against WW, U tempo and drakes/phoenix out of the box, and by the time decks start dropping Lyras and Doom Whisperers, it's almost always ready for them too. And even on an empty board, 3 power on turn 2 (with reach, which I keep forgetting about) is a solid rate.
Still working on a decent sideboard plan for control. Currently I have 3 Duress and 1 each Plaguecrafter and Vraska, Relic Seeker. I take out a Cast Down, 3 Ravenous Chupacabra and a Doom Whisperer. Dropping DW may be incorrect but I don't want to lose my early pressure so that seems like the best option. (Feel free to tell me I'm totally off base there!)
Based on feedback from this thread, here's my current build for reference:
9 Forest
1 Golgari Guildgate
2 Memorial to Folly
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Swamp
4 Woodland Cemetery
4 Kraul Harpooner
4 Seekers' Squire
2 Assassin's Trophy
1 Cast Down
4 Jadelight Ranger
2 Midnight Reaper
1 Journey to Eternity
1 Golgari Findbroker
3 Ravenous Chupacabra
3 Vraska's Contempt
1 Doom Whisperer
2 Vivien Reid
2 Carnage Tyrant
3 Find // Finality
2 Deadeye Tracker
3 Duress
1 Golden Demise
3 Moment of Craving
1 Plaguecrafter
1 Vraska, Relic Seeker
Sideboard is incomplete, still tuning there while I figure out how to do my swaps. My current thoughts on boarding:
vs Red / Wx
-2 Reaper, -1 Doom, -1 Journey
+1 Demise, +3 Moment
vs Drakes
-4 Squire
+2 Deadeye, +1 Plague, +1 Moment
vs Jeskai
-1 Cast, -3 Chupadoop, -1 Doom
+3 Duress, +1 Plague, +1 Vraska
vs mirror
-4 Harpoon
+2 Deadeye, +1 Vraska, +1 Duress
Stuff I considered but don't know if it's good enough and/or I can make space when I'm boarding:
I'm already on a pair of Kraul Harpooners main, and I might bring that up to 3 or even 4. I'm also considering dumping Merfolk Branchwalker in favour of the full set of Seekers' Squire as a better blocker (that an explore'd Squire can also survive a Finality is gravy). I'm also considering making room for some Druid of the Cowl and make bigger 4-drops such as Ripjaw Raptor to clog the ground.
That said, I'm sure doing all that would just wreck our other matchups. So I'm wondering, what maindeck changes (if any) are going to have the biggest bang in the weenie match while not costing us significant percentages elsewhere?
Find // Finality is a card I've not actually evaluated since plugging them into the deck. I'll put them on my watchlist as I do more testing. You're right, I do tend to use the front half much more often, and don't have a lot of early drops to really make the back half shine. Hmmm...
A single Duress is interesting. My first iteration of this list featured 3 Kitesail Freebooters main as they filled a similar role, as my past experience with Rock lists (back in the days of the O.G. Rock) was that mainddeck discard was an essential tool. Again, hmmm...
As far as the 1-ofs goes, yeah it's sketchy without reliable tutoring (I miss my Vampiric Tutors!). More testing is needed to tell me if I'm on the right track here or just got lucky with some of my draws. It almost feels like the graveyard-based Stitcher's Supplier etc. lists are the ones that have the better tutoring options, just in a slightly different form. I'm not convinced enough to switch my focus (yet), but I'll noodle around with it.
On the Elves plan... I find it difficult to justify slots for a card that really only has an impact on T1/2, and is a progressively worse topdeck as the game goes on. I'd rather run cards that have value in more stages of the game. Willing to admit I'm wrong and/or undervaluing their potential, but my first list ran them and they just felt so bad.
I definitely think I need to reevaluate my curve. Trying not to go overboard in light of this weekend's PT Top 8 (that's a ton and a half of weenies).
Just came back from a 3-0-1 finish at 17-person FNM. (Technically I went 4-0 but we split in advance as the only undefeated players going into the last round.) I beat Mono-U 2-1 and 2-0; Izzet Phoenix/Drakes 2-1; and Boros Angels (feat. blue) 2-1. Mana stumbles were prevalent on both sides quite often, so I can't say that I'm confident in taking my results at full face value.
That out of the way, I'll post the list, some of my thoughts, and then let better players than I have a go at telling me where it can be improved.
5 Swamp
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Woodland Cemetary
2 Memorial to Folly
1 Golgari Guildgate
1 Arch of Orazca
3 Merfolk Branchwalker
2 Seeker's Squire
2 Kraul Harpooner
3 Jadelight Ranger
2 Midnight Reaper
1 Thrashing Brontodon
1 Deathgorge Scavenger
3 Ravenous Chupacabra
2 Golgari Findbroker
2 Carnage Tyrant
1 Vraska, Golgari Queen
3 Find // Finality
3 Assassin's Trophy
3 Vraska's Contempt
1 Cast Down
1 Journey to Eternity
3 Duress
3 Moment of Craving
2 Deadeye Tracker
2 Plaguecrafter
2 Ripjaw Raptor
1 Arguel's Blood Fast
1 Izoni, Thousand-Eyed
1 Vraska, Relic Seeker
So yeah, there are a lot of 2- and 3-ofs. That's deliberate at this point as I'm trying to evaluate a lot of cards with not a lot of free time to do it. Plus, I've always favoured toolbox style decks (just wish I had some reliable tutoring!) The main feels really close to correct for my play style, but I know it can be improved.
Cards I like:
Cards I don't like / have questions about:
As far as the board is concerned:
I've always done best with midrange (particularly The Rock flavour) decks, so I want to do what I can to make this work better. Thanks in advance for all advice!