Dude.. varina makes tokens. Gravecrawler recurs. Better play contamination! Far better faster then infernal darkness.
Depending on what you are trying to do, I agree that Contamination is likely a better option as there is more opportunity to stick around. However, the main difference is that Contamination shuts off Cabal Coffers and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx while Infernal Darkness does not. Not sure if that is enough to choose one over the other, but it is a difference
I really dislike you not playing grave titan. Sure 6 mana is a lot but hes strong has death touch and makes 2 zombies even when het catches instant removal. Its a army in a can.
I feel that Grave Titan just isn't good enough. Sure, we want an army, but we want it early to get a lot of use out of Varina and all the synergies in the deck. I cut Grave Titan from my last build and didn't include it in my Varina list due to being too slow. This might be personal preference or even meta dependent, but it doesn't seem good enough.
Also.. maybe some lightning greaves? The deck is about attacking to trigger varina so it means haste and maybe protection when needed.
Gisa is slow indeed. Thats why i removed her but i really want her tough? Again.. greaves???
I generally only run in Greaves in the more aggro builds I have where I really want a specific creature (my general usually) to swing right away. I get that it could be helpful here, but I generally see getting a few creatures down already before Varina enters so you get the trigger when those attack. Varina doesn't need to attack right away and I think getting a zombie down instead of Greaves is likely better. Again, not that Greaves is bad or anything like that. It can definitely have its uses. I would say that the deck really isn't any better or worse for running it.
Shroud might be the more important part of the card so that could be relevant depending on meta. But, our build isn't necessarily hinging on Varina sticking around so we don't need to do a lot to try to protect her as I think the deck functions fine without her.
I do agree Gisa is also too slow though she is powerful. One of those cards that is kind of on the line but never quite makes it over to be an include in the deck.
I had a really good game yesterday where Gravespawn was instrumental in. I had a bunch of zombie tokens (5 from Noosegraf Mob since I hadn't cut it yet) but I still had 7 other zombies. I was able to reanimate a Mikaeus and a Carrion Feeder which then let me sac my board to get everything back to kill everything with Noxious Ghoul and drain my opponents with Vengeful Dead.
I will admit that part of that was the zombies off of the Mob and I am still not super impressed with Mob so I am not sure this is the best example of a consistent play. I don't know that I would go as far as to say it is a dead draw mostly, since it helps in the long game, but other cards (mainly the mass reanimation ones) are just better. I think the ceiling can be reasonably high especially with Varina making tokens for us, but the floor is really low (6 mana 3/3 is never that good).
I do run Phyrexian Delver which I think is a good card. It can help a lot to get some of our bigger pieces back. But it really isn't the same. I am not sure what the best option for something like this would be beyond what we already have. Maybe Wake the Dead or Rally the Ancestors which are temporary unless we also have Mikaeus (and a sac outlet for Rally). I am not sure if Finale of Eternity is good enough but maybe?
As to the Trailblazer, I got that down last night and it did absolutely nothing. I had it in my Grimgrin, Corpse-Born deck and it made more sense there but in the 2 games I have gotten it in this deck, I never needed to activate the abilities. Being able to get more mana from Nykthos and more life drain from Gray Merchant has been its biggest contribution. And those are kind of weak applications for it (Necropotence or Dark Prophecy do the same thing while also having more relevant abilities). I am not sure a "swarm" deck like Varina really needs something tapping zombies down to get other zombies to hit.
Well, in the game I had last night, he basically won me the game by allowing me to reanimate Gray Merchant again. However, I admit I am still kind of testing him out. In my past builds, he has been mediocre. It just felt that with the discard and the ability to make tokens if needed, he might find a better home here. And, so far, he has, but I am still not sure he is truly as stellar as I want him to be. And, the mana cost is a big part of that. I don't mind tapping my team down as I can still block and reanimate if needed but that is still a reasonable concern. I will hopefully have some more games where he can further solidify himself as a "must have" or see if he shows as being mediocre here as well. And I don't really want too many mediocre cards at the 6 drop slot.
Oddly enough, of those 4 cards, I have only ever cast Liliana. She was a beast and drew me a bunch of cards so that alone was worth it. And helping to clear my opponent's boards (more or less) is relevant as well. I will admit the high mana cost can be tough and I have only gotten her the one time where I had the mana so it is possible that was the exception. But she did a lot of work.
Bontu seems like he should be good but I haven't really gotten him yet. Coffin Queen I am not sure of but she is a Zombie and I never tried her in my previous builds so I thought I would give her a try here. And I just like Agent and he fits by being a zombie. I actually don't have a lot of grave hate in this deck so he can help make my Living Death and Patriarch's Bidding less detrimental (as you said). Though, I think it is worth calling out that this is one of the reasons I think Zombie Apocalypse is better: it already only affects you so preemptive grave hate isn't as necessary.
I will admit Twister is likely a bad call. I put it in because I like the card, it can help out early if I need it, and it can be a safety valve for all the drawing and discarding that might happen. The latter reason is the main one as I just didn't want to get into games where I lost because I drew too many cards but somehow couldn't keep a board or spent all my reanimation. Since adding Zombie Apocalypse, running out of mass reanimation might not be as big a deal as I am thinking it could be. I might end up cutting it later once I get a better feel for the deck. And, in all honesty, if I do need it there is a possibility that Commit // Memory or even Echo of Eons are better since they can be used after discarding. Or, maybe Mission Briefing to just use my mass reanimation again.
I played this deck again last night and I am really liking it. I don't want to go into too much detail here but the game last night went super well. Undead Augur was really good to keep my hand full. And Alhamarret's Archive was very important in being able to get the win. Drawing 2, gaining 2, and discading 1 for each zombie attacking meant I was able to slowly get some advantage. And discarding meant my Zombie Apocalypse was game ending. I ended up reanimating 7 or 8 zombies, one of which was Gray Merchant of Asphodel. It returned and I drained for 17. Since I had 2 opponents, I gained 34 life which became 68 life due to the Archive. And then I sacrificed it and reanimated it with Gravespawn Sovereign to win the game.
This is the list I am running. I use a program to keep track of my decks and I am missing a card here somewhere and I can't remember which one I forgot to add to my list. So, other than that card missing, this is accurate:
I agree it seems solid. It is low on the curve which is nice and works to (hopefully) make sure our opponents have less life than us when we activate Shepherd of Rot. I already know I am taking out Noosegraf Mob. This might just be the card to slot in for it for now.
It's not a bad idea, at least in terms of mitigating the down side of Varina's attack trigger. It's a little slow and there's probably better things to do with 1B but I can't see why it isn't a decent way to get value out of both cards. I love Phyrexian Reclamation, it's great value, and it could probably do nice things even without Varina. Plays nicely with Diregraf Colossus and God-Eternal Oketra , too, so there's that. Would also be a nice mana sink in response to Bojuka Bog activations and such.
As for whether there's room....I honestly don't know. I've got a few bits on the way from Modern Horizons and a birthday order, so my list is in the ether currently. But I think if you have flex spots here or there there's a good chance it could fit nicely
I do think Reclamation might be pushing it in this build mostly because I don't know that there are a ton of high impact creatures we are getting back. Which means that it seems better as a way to build up a swarm again and that is a large investment. I think Patriarch's Bidding, Living Death, and Command the Dreadhorde are just better to get an army back.
In regards to using it so you have cards to pitch to Varina, I don't know that is enough reason to slot it in. I think just raw card draw would do the same thing.
It is definitely not a bad card, and it might be correct to slot it in to allow for a bit more resilience, but I think there may be better options.
As far as additions go, I'm tossing up whether Hall of Heliod's Generosity and Mistveil Plains would be worth adding to the land base here. Hall picks up my cumulative upkeep enchantments, which saves me a bit of mana, as well as some of the more clutch enchantments like Smothering Tithe (which you can guarantee gets blown up). Mistveil would be more to have the possibility of saving bits and pieces from exile, or possibly recurring instants/sorceries. Currently there's only one piece that can drag them back out, Sidisi, Undead Vizier, though, so it might be a waste of time even exploring that space. You never know though, switching a land out is a reasonably small deck space to manipulate.
Of the two, the Hall seems better if only because Mistveil seems less likely to ever "work". That is, you only have 6 permanents that are white (granted, one is Varina) which means that you only have 5 other cards in your remaining 98 to get you to two white permanents to let you activate it. It seems like those are slim odds to do what you want with it.
I finally put this deck together last week and played one game with it. I don't have a thread for it yet as a)I want to get a couple more games with it to make sure it is something I want to keep around (I always get "bored" with Tribal decks) and b) I will likely just make this one of my first "new" threads on MTGNexus.
While my list is quite a bit different outside of the zombies themselves (and even some zombies are different) I had a few things that stood out to me:
Alhammarret's Archive is a beast. I had picked one up based on a comment in this thread and, at least in the one game I played, it put in a ton of work. It not only got me the cards I wanted but it also filled my graveyard for some activations of Gravespawn Sovereign later on. I was even building towards a Patriarch's Bidding in my hand so I could mass reanimate everything. I ended up winning before getting to do that
Gray Merchant of Asphodel gained me 28 life in a 3 player game which the Archive doubled to 56 life. I went from 16 life to 72 and obviously had a massive board. The other two players kind of hung it up after that. I actually don't run Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx in the deck even though it is mostly black but this situation shows I probably could. I only have 4 lands that don't produce color (and that counts Phyrexian Tower just in case I don't have a creature at the right time) so adding another "colorless" land might not be the worst option since it will very often at least produce 1 black.
Dreadhorde Invasion is kind of nice to have as it gives me a zombie every turn (or buffs one up) and the synergy with Soul Diviner is pretty good. Especially with Archive as well. I ended up constantly removing counters from my Army to keep my hand full.
Soul Diviner is basically the biggest reason I kept Noosegraf Mob, and the tokens it gives are also pretty good, but I think blinx28 has the right idea on lowering the curve and the Mob may not be nearly as good. My curve is at 3.23 right now with 3 six drops and 11 five drops. The five drops are on the high side but they include things like the aforementioned Archive, Kindred Discovery, Havengul Lich, Grimgrin, Gray Merchant, and God-Eternals Bontu and Oketra (among others).
I think the power of the 5 drops is enough to warrant the curve being a little high. I do run 39 lands, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, 2 Signets, and 2 Talismans. I do not run the non-black option for either set (so no Azorius Signet or Talisman of Progress). So, I am likely on the high side for mana sources as well, but as I just built the deck, I erred on the side of caution to ensure I could hit my land drops. Varina helps us draw out of mana flooding, but she would also help us draw out of mana screw too I suppose.
I am interested in what people think of Unsettled Mariner. It is not a card I thought of but it seems like a "decent" protection card. My thought has been that this deck wants to be pretty aggressive so I am not sure on the value of a card that doesn't do much to advance our game plan and only sort of protects us against stuff. I guess I prefer Patriarch's Bidding and Living Death to get all our stuff back after a wrath (though we are more susceptible to grave hate then).
I have seen a lot of comments on Tombstone Stairwell and I decided to omit it in mine to start with. I think an easy swap could be the Stairwell for the Mob as the Stairwell should produce a lot more zombies. Now, I don't run eitherAltar but I think it can still put in some good work even if it is a little tougher to keep around in my case.
I can see where Archfiend of Ifnir would be really good in this deck, but I really don't like the aesthetic of it not being a zombie (I am already stretching that for Burnished Hart and Solemn). I might have to suck it up as that card does seem pretty synergistic with the deck.
As for lands, I really like Vault of the Archangel and I can't believe I forgot about Unclaimed Territory. I have High Market in my list and really, I don't know that it is the greatest here. I think I would rather have something like the Vault even if High Market could sometimes save my dudes from being exiled. Especially since I have creature based sac outlets already. Path of Ancestry also makes sense but a) it comes into play tapped and b) doesn't have a foil (yet). I might have to think on this one too.
As an aside, your card tag for Path of Ancestry seems to have an apostrophe at the end of it for some reason so the card tag doesn't work.
What are your thoughts on Stronghold Assassin and Corpse Harvester? I know Stronghold Assassin can be kind of slow but it can put in some good work. And Harvester can get you the right Zombie at the right time while also making sure you hit your land drops. Depending on how your game is going, it could also ensure you get a certain color of mana if you happen to be missing a color.
Kindred Discovery seems like it could add some decent card draw if you feel you need it. 5 mana can be tough, but it helps keep your hand full as you are trying to flood the board and it can help having some extra cards in hand for Varina's ability since hers is just a filtering effect.
I feel that Grave Titan just isn't good enough. Sure, we want an army, but we want it early to get a lot of use out of Varina and all the synergies in the deck. I cut Grave Titan from my last build and didn't include it in my Varina list due to being too slow. This might be personal preference or even meta dependent, but it doesn't seem good enough.
I generally only run in Greaves in the more aggro builds I have where I really want a specific creature (my general usually) to swing right away. I get that it could be helpful here, but I generally see getting a few creatures down already before Varina enters so you get the trigger when those attack. Varina doesn't need to attack right away and I think getting a zombie down instead of Greaves is likely better. Again, not that Greaves is bad or anything like that. It can definitely have its uses. I would say that the deck really isn't any better or worse for running it.
Shroud might be the more important part of the card so that could be relevant depending on meta. But, our build isn't necessarily hinging on Varina sticking around so we don't need to do a lot to try to protect her as I think the deck functions fine without her.
I do agree Gisa is also too slow though she is powerful. One of those cards that is kind of on the line but never quite makes it over to be an include in the deck.
I will admit that part of that was the zombies off of the Mob and I am still not super impressed with Mob so I am not sure this is the best example of a consistent play. I don't know that I would go as far as to say it is a dead draw mostly, since it helps in the long game, but other cards (mainly the mass reanimation ones) are just better. I think the ceiling can be reasonably high especially with Varina making tokens for us, but the floor is really low (6 mana 3/3 is never that good).
I do run Phyrexian Delver which I think is a good card. It can help a lot to get some of our bigger pieces back. But it really isn't the same. I am not sure what the best option for something like this would be beyond what we already have. Maybe Wake the Dead or Rally the Ancestors which are temporary unless we also have Mikaeus (and a sac outlet for Rally). I am not sure if Finale of Eternity is good enough but maybe?
As to the Trailblazer, I got that down last night and it did absolutely nothing. I had it in my Grimgrin, Corpse-Born deck and it made more sense there but in the 2 games I have gotten it in this deck, I never needed to activate the abilities. Being able to get more mana from Nykthos and more life drain from Gray Merchant has been its biggest contribution. And those are kind of weak applications for it (Necropotence or Dark Prophecy do the same thing while also having more relevant abilities). I am not sure a "swarm" deck like Varina really needs something tapping zombies down to get other zombies to hit.
Bontu seems like he should be good but I haven't really gotten him yet. Coffin Queen I am not sure of but she is a Zombie and I never tried her in my previous builds so I thought I would give her a try here. And I just like Agent and he fits by being a zombie. I actually don't have a lot of grave hate in this deck so he can help make my Living Death and Patriarch's Bidding less detrimental (as you said). Though, I think it is worth calling out that this is one of the reasons I think Zombie Apocalypse is better: it already only affects you so preemptive grave hate isn't as necessary.
I will admit Twister is likely a bad call. I put it in because I like the card, it can help out early if I need it, and it can be a safety valve for all the drawing and discarding that might happen. The latter reason is the main one as I just didn't want to get into games where I lost because I drew too many cards but somehow couldn't keep a board or spent all my reanimation. Since adding Zombie Apocalypse, running out of mass reanimation might not be as big a deal as I am thinking it could be. I might end up cutting it later once I get a better feel for the deck. And, in all honesty, if I do need it there is a possibility that Commit // Memory or even Echo of Eons are better since they can be used after discarding. Or, maybe Mission Briefing to just use my mass reanimation again.
This is the list I am running. I use a program to keep track of my decks and I am missing a card here somewhere and I can't remember which one I forgot to add to my list. So, other than that card missing, this is accurate:
1 Varina, Lich Queen
Lands (38)
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Command Tower
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Fetid Pools
1 Flooded Strand
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 High Market
1 Irrigated Farmland
2 Island
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Marsh Flats
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Prairie Stream
1 Scrubland
1 Sunken Hollow
7 Swamp
1 Tainted Field
1 Tainted Isle
1 Tundra
1 Unclaimed Territory
1 Underground Sea
1 Unholy Grotto
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Watery Grave
1 Agent of Erebos
1 Burnished Hart
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Cemetery Reaper
1 Coffin Queen
1 Corpse Harvester
1 Cryptbreaker
1 Death Baron
1 Diregraf Captain
1 Diregraf Colossus
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 God-Eternal Bontu
1 God-Eternal Oketra
1 Graveborn Muse
1 Gravecrawler
1 Gravespawn Sovereign
1 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1 Grimgrin, Corpse-Born
1 Havengul Lich
1 Lord of the Accursed
1 Lord of the Undead
1 Midnight Reaper
1 Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
1 Noosegraf Mob
1 Noxious Ghoul
1 Phyrexian Delver
1 Plague Belcher
1 Relentless Dead
1 Shepherd of Rot
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Soul Diviner
1 Undead Augur
1 Undead Warchief
1 Unraveling Mummy
1 Vengeful Dead
1 Wayward Servant
1 Withered Wretch
1 Zombie Trailblazer
1 Alhammarret's Archive
1 Dimir Signet
1 Mana Crypt
1 Orzhov Signet
1 Sol Ring
1 Talisman of Dominance
Instants (5)
1 Counterspell
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Mana Drain
1 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
Sorceries (5)
1 Living Death
1 Patriarch's Bidding
1 Timetwister
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Zombie Apocalypse
Planeswalkers (4)
1 Liliana, Death's Majesty
1 Liliana, Dreadhorde General
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Liliana, Untouched by Death
Enchantments (2)
1 Dreadhorde Invasion
1 Kindred Discovery
In regards to using it so you have cards to pitch to Varina, I don't know that is enough reason to slot it in. I think just raw card draw would do the same thing.
It is definitely not a bad card, and it might be correct to slot it in to allow for a bit more resilience, but I think there may be better options.
Of the two, the Hall seems better if only because Mistveil seems less likely to ever "work". That is, you only have 6 permanents that are white (granted, one is Varina) which means that you only have 5 other cards in your remaining 98 to get you to two white permanents to let you activate it. It seems like those are slim odds to do what you want with it.
While my list is quite a bit different outside of the zombies themselves (and even some zombies are different) I had a few things that stood out to me:
Alhammarret's Archive is a beast. I had picked one up based on a comment in this thread and, at least in the one game I played, it put in a ton of work. It not only got me the cards I wanted but it also filled my graveyard for some activations of Gravespawn Sovereign later on. I was even building towards a Patriarch's Bidding in my hand so I could mass reanimate everything. I ended up winning before getting to do that
Gray Merchant of Asphodel gained me 28 life in a 3 player game which the Archive doubled to 56 life. I went from 16 life to 72 and obviously had a massive board. The other two players kind of hung it up after that. I actually don't run Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx in the deck even though it is mostly black but this situation shows I probably could. I only have 4 lands that don't produce color (and that counts Phyrexian Tower just in case I don't have a creature at the right time) so adding another "colorless" land might not be the worst option since it will very often at least produce 1 black.
Dreadhorde Invasion is kind of nice to have as it gives me a zombie every turn (or buffs one up) and the synergy with Soul Diviner is pretty good. Especially with Archive as well. I ended up constantly removing counters from my Army to keep my hand full.
Soul Diviner is basically the biggest reason I kept Noosegraf Mob, and the tokens it gives are also pretty good, but I think blinx28 has the right idea on lowering the curve and the Mob may not be nearly as good. My curve is at 3.23 right now with 3 six drops and 11 five drops. The five drops are on the high side but they include things like the aforementioned Archive, Kindred Discovery, Havengul Lich, Grimgrin, Gray Merchant, and God-Eternals Bontu and Oketra (among others).
I think the power of the 5 drops is enough to warrant the curve being a little high. I do run 39 lands, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, 2 Signets, and 2 Talismans. I do not run the non-black option for either set (so no Azorius Signet or Talisman of Progress). So, I am likely on the high side for mana sources as well, but as I just built the deck, I erred on the side of caution to ensure I could hit my land drops. Varina helps us draw out of mana flooding, but she would also help us draw out of mana screw too I suppose.
I am interested in what people think of Unsettled Mariner. It is not a card I thought of but it seems like a "decent" protection card. My thought has been that this deck wants to be pretty aggressive so I am not sure on the value of a card that doesn't do much to advance our game plan and only sort of protects us against stuff. I guess I prefer Patriarch's Bidding and Living Death to get all our stuff back after a wrath (though we are more susceptible to grave hate then).
I have seen a lot of comments on Tombstone Stairwell and I decided to omit it in mine to start with. I think an easy swap could be the Stairwell for the Mob as the Stairwell should produce a lot more zombies. Now, I don't run either Altar but I think it can still put in some good work even if it is a little tougher to keep around in my case.
I can see where Archfiend of Ifnir would be really good in this deck, but I really don't like the aesthetic of it not being a zombie (I am already stretching that for Burnished Hart and Solemn). I might have to suck it up as that card does seem pretty synergistic with the deck.
As for lands, I really like Vault of the Archangel and I can't believe I forgot about Unclaimed Territory. I have High Market in my list and really, I don't know that it is the greatest here. I think I would rather have something like the Vault even if High Market could sometimes save my dudes from being exiled. Especially since I have creature based sac outlets already. Path of Ancestry also makes sense but a) it comes into play tapped and b) doesn't have a foil (yet). I might have to think on this one too.
As an aside, your card tag for Path of Ancestry seems to have an apostrophe at the end of it for some reason so the card tag doesn't work.
Kindred Discovery seems like it could add some decent card draw if you feel you need it. 5 mana can be tough, but it helps keep your hand full as you are trying to flood the board and it can help having some extra cards in hand for Varina's ability since hers is just a filtering effect.