Ok guys, I've been playing the list I've posted some days ago, and, even if it works better, I feel that it's still clunky somehow. Now, I'm reading a lot of posts (including the ones in this discussion) about the Saheeli-cat variant, and I'm curious if it works better than the "classic" version of the deck. I must admit that I'm interested, even if it looses completely the toolbox element that I love about the previous list, and I'm curious about its performance. I've played a couple of games with Lectrys's list, and I'm quite getting the hang of it. What are your opinions on the comparison between the two versions?
EDIT: I've edited the list a bit according to personal preferences (wanted to add some utilities, toolbox-style):
I really like the sinergies this variant allows, expecially the tons-o-mana interaction between Lotus Cobra and Renegade Rallier. I added a couple of cards from my previous list, some in particular beacuse I wanted to emulate the combo path with Vannifar (I'm talking about Restoration Angel and the second copy of Renegade Rallier). Do you think I messed up or this list could be viable with the small tweakings I did?
First - an activation of Pod without comboing can still be really good. For example, if you manage to upgrade a 2-drop into rallier and return voice, that can be really good vs control or agro, gumming up the board. Against people holding up bolt, you wouldn't necessarily even want to go for a combo line.
Second - the beauty of kiki-pod back in the day was that every card you could combo with was powerful by itself. That's not remotely true for Hippo, and although Conscripts is better, it's a little hit and miss depending on the match-up.
Third (and probably most importantly) - this new pod is both slower and more vunerable. As a result, building your deck focusing on combo could be troublesome. I think it's more important than ever to have a solid list that works without POD, and slot everything else in around it.
That's EXACTLY what I meant with my old posts, couldn't agree more. I think that the Hippo/Sun Titan/Conscripts package gives too much relevance to Vannifar that, as you said, is quite vulnerable. The aim of the deck is, obviously, the combo, but making it work without it can save your games most of the time.
Anyway, I updated my list:
This list features some improvements to the one I posted a few days ago. I'm pretty happy with it but I feel that it does still need some tweaking.
Pros
Eldritch Evolution, as many of you guys said before, convinced me and proved to be a very useful alternative to Chord of Calling in certain scenarios. More than picking up combo pieces, I've used it very often to pick specific silver bullets and try out some nice plays, like EE -> Sac BoP/Hierarch -> Renegade Rallier that picks up again Hierarch and gives us one more card to tap with Chord. I'm really enjoying EE, so I think it has carved itself a solid place in my list.
Rhythm of the Wild could make the final cut, but as a sideboard card: Domri, sadly, proved to be too slow and Rhythm replaced him effectively. It's a strong card to play in certain matchups, and it helps by empowering our creatures in general more than keeping them safe from counters. It may be too much in the main deck, but I'm really positive about keeping it as a sideboard card (unless I find something more interesting, of course).
I just love how easy and flexible is sideboarding with this list: since there are many one-copy cards useful in very specific scenarios, swapping between main deck and sideboard is simple and effective.
I'm pretty happy with the manabase, I think I've finally found a good balance between colors, fetches, shocklands and utilities (maybe just Gavony is a liiitle bit uncertain).
Cons
Dead starting hands used to happen often with the previous list, but, even if their frequence has been lowered significantly, it still happens a bit too often. If I don't start with at least one mana dork and two lands, it's really easy to get stuck. That's the reason why I added another Noble Hierarch and a land, but I'm not sure if it is enough. Are you guys having the same problem? If not, how did you manage to solve it?
I'm still unsure about the number of copies of certain cards: there are some I could add a more copy of (Scryb Ranger, Eternal Witness, Noble Hierarch) and some I could remove one copy of (Deceiver Exarch, Kitchen Finks, Renegade Rallier), not sure about how to balance that.
I'm not entirely sure about playing Voice of Resurgence: I've always loved that card, and it sure sinergizes well with Vannifar and Evolution, but is it worth playing or it could give some space to other useful things?
What do you guys think? Are you testing some other interesting cards?
Maybe I don't see something, but i think, we should be able to combo off from any drop we have at our disposal and not just from BoP or hierarch. That was the strength of pod, and we have to apply it here
Well, you can combo out of different things, in the earlier posts of this discussion there are various examples. It depends on what you have on the board, in general if you have Vannifar you should be able to combo from a wide variety of scenarios: let's say Vanny + Chord/Evolution/Renegade Rallier (to bring up from the GY something to sac)/Something to sac and bring Rallier/a 1-Drop, to mention some of them. I do agree that the other combo shell you're mentioning can be a good alternative to the main route, but, and that's just personal taste, I prefer to build a toolbox of usefull stuff centered around the combo and, somehow, possibly independent and still quite functional. I think that this deck offers a variety of approaches so vast that each one of us can build the deck according to our preferences, even though some cards must remain at the core.
Speaking of preferences, I'm wondering why the majority of the decklists I've seen include Avalanche Riders. Isn't Fulminator Mage just better? Maybe I'm missing something, but if I'm not, I just don't understand why Riders are viable or even more advisable than Fulminator.
I'd say Magus is a meta call, and now is not the time for the card to shine. Many Arclight Phoenix decks, Dredge which wants to cast Conflagrate against creature decks anyway, and so on. Magus belongs in the SB for Tron.
Yep, that makes sense. I'm currently looking for something to replace Magus in the main deck, kinda unsure about what. Maybe I'll try Reveillark or one more copy of something else, any suggestions?
Either way, the comparison between Rhythm and those two cards is also iffy, since Rhythm isn't a dedicated combo card, but makes all played creatures better while the other two cards are purely combo cards. Hence, not being able to find it via tutors is not that big of an problem in this case. You can compare it to a PW basically, on what it does.
Totally agree, I believe that Rhythm of the Wild has some potential even without the combo in this deck: it makes the whole bunch of toolbox creature safe from counters and gives them a strong boost, either by giving them haste or a counter. The only problem is that it can be a little bit heavy togheter with Chord and EE, since, as you said before, it can't be tutored and it uses slots that could be filled with more useful creatures. I'll try something, maybe I'll remove another card alongside with Magus of the Moon and try a x2 of Rhythm, but I actually don't know if two copies are worth playing.
Well that was a fun format. See you in 2019 when they finaly unban Pod, since as an unemployed I can't afford a new deck.
(Hint there has been only one format in past two years that I've been playing.)
There's a lot of ideas here which is really great. I just thought i'd share my opinion on chord and evo slightly...
1. Evo is obviously quicker. However, I feel like that kicks in much more in the sideboard games, where you can go get very specific bullets and lock people out much quicker (eidolon vs storm for example).
2. Chord gives pod haste. Again, I realise this has already been said, but chording for 4 on opps end step gives the opponent much less time to react. How relevant that'll be though, I'm not sure. Chording for 4 is 7 mana, so realistically isn't happening until your own turn 4 at the earliest, which could be the opponents turn 5 end step. Against anything remotely linear, you're already dead. Against anything controlling, a lot of their interaction comes at instant speed anyway, so the end step trick hardly matters.
Having said all of that, I just like chord more. Witness lines with Chord were always cool, and instant speed tricks are fun too.
Yeah, I guess that's what makes Chord better than Evolution most of the time. Anyway, here's the decklist I'm currently testing:
Is Magus of the Moon viable with this complex manabase? I really love this card, but a couple of times it caused some trouble with my own lands. I'm still pretty unsure if it's the case to move him to the sideboard or not.
I really like Rhythm of the Wild, but adding 3 other non-creature spells could be a problem. I guess the only card we can remove with this perspective in mind is Eldritch Evolution, but, as I said before, I'm pretty interested on seeing if it can be good toghether with Chord.
How many copies of Prime Speaker Vannifar should we play? I've seen opposite, be it 2 or even 4 copies, so I decided to be in the middle. I don't want this deck to be too much combo-centered, since it can be too dangerous to play only with the combo as the final goal, and that's why I think 3 is the best option.
Is the manabase fine? I cut off Hanweir Battlements beacuse of the third point of this list, but I'm still not sure if this is the way to go.
On the other hand, the things I prefer the most:
Protection cards! I took inspiration from Xanian7's list on this, and I'm in love with this small bundle of cards. Spellskite is wonderful in so many ways, it can protect mana dorks, combo pieces, ecc; Shalai, Voice of Plenty is just a big beautiful wincon against certain matchups and, togheter with Gavony Township, a great way to bolster our creatures; Selfless Spirit, in the end, is a powerful card against mass removals, a really big threat to this deck.
Deputy of Detention proved to be a really good card, it saved me a bunch of times against Ponza (3 Gruul Spellbreaker were really scary) and, in general, it can be a handy card.
Domri, Chaos Bringer is really good against certain matchups, it provides a lot of utility by tutoring two creatures at the time and, most importantly, it can give Vannifar haste. Will surely keep an eye on him, he's proving to be a nice backup.
I"m actually some random guy from Italy that popped out of nowhere lol.
Anyway, I'll try Reveillark for sure, it has a lot of potential! On the other hand, cards like Hall of the Bandit Lord and Ranger of Eos + 1Drops aren't that appealing, I simply don't believe we have enough slots to include that package of combo-enablers. Tomorrow I'll post my list, I still need to do some testing
Hi guys, I've been following this thread for a while now, and, since I'm really interested in this archetype, I want to share some thoughts.
The decklist I'm testing is pretty similar to the one at the top of the discussion, with some minor changes. All the lists I saw before this one were pretty much combo-oriented only, I believe this concept of Kiki/Vannifar is more interesting as it's something more similar to the current Kiki Chords, some sort of toolbox deck with a combo finisher. In this perspective, I believe that Rhythm of the Wild is a great addition to the deck, not only beacuse it enables the T3 combo, but also beacuse it gives some backup to the "midrange" potential of the deck.
What do you guys think of Eldritch Evolution? Do you believe that it can fit somehow in this variant? I'm currently testing and I'm unsure wether it can be useful or not.
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EDIT: I've edited the list a bit according to personal preferences (wanted to add some utilities, toolbox-style):
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Lotus Cobra
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Spellskite
1 Deceiver Exarch
1 Deputy of Detention
2 Renegade Rallier
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Knight of Autumn
3 Prime Speaker Vannifar
1 Shalai, Voice of Plenty
2 Restoration Angel
3 Felidar Guardian
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 Oath of Nissa
3 Saheeli Rai
3 Eldritch Evolution
Lands (22)
1 Hanweir Battlements
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Gavony Township
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Temple Garden
2 Stomping Ground
2 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Knight of Autumn
1 Avalanche Riders
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Shalai, Voice of Plenty
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Stony Silence
2 Spell Pierce
3 Path to Exile
1 Fiery Justice
I really like the sinergies this variant allows, expecially the tons-o-mana interaction between Lotus Cobra and Renegade Rallier. I added a couple of cards from my previous list, some in particular beacuse I wanted to emulate the combo path with Vannifar (I'm talking about Restoration Angel and the second copy of Renegade Rallier). Do you think I messed up or this list could be viable with the small tweakings I did?
That's EXACTLY what I meant with my old posts, couldn't agree more. I think that the Hippo/Sun Titan/Conscripts package gives too much relevance to Vannifar that, as you said, is quite vulnerable. The aim of the deck is, obviously, the combo, but making it work without it can save your games most of the time.
Anyway, I updated my list:
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Spellskite
2 Voice of Resurgence
2 Wall of Roots
2 Renegade Rallier
2 Deceiver Exarch
1 Deputy of Detention
1 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Knight of Autumn
3 Prime Speaker Vannifar
2 Restoration Angel
1 Shalai, Voice of Plenty
2 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
3 Chord of Calling
2 Eldritch Evolution
Lands[23]
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Flooded Strand
2 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
1 Gavony Township
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Rhythm of the Wild
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Knight of Autumn
3 Path to Exile
1 Remorseful Cleric
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Thragtusk
This list features some improvements to the one I posted a few days ago. I'm pretty happy with it but I feel that it does still need some tweaking.
Pros
What do you guys think? Are you testing some other interesting cards?
Well, you can combo out of different things, in the earlier posts of this discussion there are various examples. It depends on what you have on the board, in general if you have Vannifar you should be able to combo from a wide variety of scenarios: let's say Vanny + Chord/Evolution/Renegade Rallier (to bring up from the GY something to sac)/Something to sac and bring Rallier/a 1-Drop, to mention some of them. I do agree that the other combo shell you're mentioning can be a good alternative to the main route, but, and that's just personal taste, I prefer to build a toolbox of usefull stuff centered around the combo and, somehow, possibly independent and still quite functional. I think that this deck offers a variety of approaches so vast that each one of us can build the deck according to our preferences, even though some cards must remain at the core.
Speaking of preferences, I'm wondering why the majority of the decklists I've seen include Avalanche Riders. Isn't Fulminator Mage just better? Maybe I'm missing something, but if I'm not, I just don't understand why Riders are viable or even more advisable than Fulminator.
Yep, that makes sense. I'm currently looking for something to replace Magus in the main deck, kinda unsure about what. Maybe I'll try Reveillark or one more copy of something else, any suggestions?
Totally agree, I believe that Rhythm of the Wild has some potential even without the combo in this deck: it makes the whole bunch of toolbox creature safe from counters and gives them a strong boost, either by giving them haste or a counter. The only problem is that it can be a little bit heavy togheter with Chord and EE, since, as you said before, it can't be tutored and it uses slots that could be filled with more useful creatures. I'll try something, maybe I'll remove another card alongside with Magus of the Moon and try a x2 of Rhythm, but I actually don't know if two copies are worth playing.
You have Scry 4 (years).
Yeah, I guess that's what makes Chord better than Evolution most of the time. Anyway, here's the decklist I'm currently testing:
2 Noble Hierarch
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Wall of Roots
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Voice of Resurgence
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Eternal Witness
1 Knight of Autumn
1 Deputy of Detention
2 Deceiver Exarch
2 Renegade Rallier
1 Shalai, Voice of Plenty
3 Prime Speaker Vannifar
2 Restoration Angel
2 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2 Eldritch Evolution
3 Chord of Calling
//Lands
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
1 Gavony Township
1 Plains
2 Forest
2 Domri, Chaos Bringer
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Knight of Autumn
1 Avalanche Riders
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Path to Exile
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Thragtusk
The main concerns, at the moment, are:
On the other hand, the things I prefer the most:
What do you think? Let me know your opinions!
Anyway, I'll try Reveillark for sure, it has a lot of potential! On the other hand, cards like Hall of the Bandit Lord and Ranger of Eos + 1Drops aren't that appealing, I simply don't believe we have enough slots to include that package of combo-enablers. Tomorrow I'll post my list, I still need to do some testing
The decklist I'm testing is pretty similar to the one at the top of the discussion, with some minor changes. All the lists I saw before this one were pretty much combo-oriented only, I believe this concept of Kiki/Vannifar is more interesting as it's something more similar to the current Kiki Chords, some sort of toolbox deck with a combo finisher. In this perspective, I believe that Rhythm of the Wild is a great addition to the deck, not only beacuse it enables the T3 combo, but also beacuse it gives some backup to the "midrange" potential of the deck.
What do you guys think of Eldritch Evolution? Do you believe that it can fit somehow in this variant? I'm currently testing and I'm unsure wether it can be useful or not.