@ThatFrenchGuy
Welcome to the cEDH forums! In an effort to help build the knowledge pool for Ghave, do you mind sharing a list for Ghave that utilizes Ad Naus? I agree that keeping it low to the ground and focusing in on 1-2 combo lines is ideal, but it would be great to have someone more qualified than myself offer suggestions on how to improve Ghave.
Generally speaking, and particularly for cEDH, you almost always auto-ship an opening hand if it doesn't have an early mana source or 2. 2 is preferable honestly.
When playing against the Uril deck, it might not be a bad idea to consider Rampage of the Clans. While you might flood his board with tokens, you can at least stop the Uril from being a flying death monster of doom.
I strongly recommend you check out the Laboratory Maniacs' YouTube channel here. I think it will give you a great guide on how to effectively play cEDH from a sequencing standpoint as well as evaluating opening hands. It's critical that you have either interaction or fast mana in your opening hand so that you don't die.
Hah! Found the link for the Ghave Combo list I saw. Behold the Glory. Lerker is a great cEDH deckbuilder, so I would trust his card choices implicitly.
Well, we know not to sneak up on you in a dark alley for fear of getting choked out haha.
Any new game reports? I recently came across a Combo focused Ghave list that abuses Ad Nauseam and Earthcraft.
Also, Generous Patron is another combo enabler for the deck since you can sac creatures to put +1/+1 counters on your opponent's creatures. I didn't even think about it in Ghave until I saw this combo list (I sadly can't find the link for it...).
Any updates here? I'm interested to see if the changes that you've made have translated into more efficient/effective games for you. Gotta make sure my advice is legit, heh.
There's different ways to play politics without getting into actual table talk, if that's not your thing. It may be something as simple as sequencing your turns more effectively so that you don't appear to be the largest threat at the table until you suddenly win. Either way, politics is an inevitable occurrence in a multi-player format like Commander. cEDH as a philosophy minimizes the amount and/or efficacy of table-talk, but it's still present.
Keep practicing with the deck and learning it. You've already got a solid win percentage with Ghave, so perhaps the Archenemy status you have is somewhat deserved, haha.
That does sounds like a bad draw, honestly. I am able to consistently find mana sources with my cEDH decks and they run between 30-31 lands.
Ah, the irony of politics. I'm sorry that you became the target of politics and hate. It happens, particularly since Ghave has a reputation as a Combo commander. And your board state looked pretty awesome too, so I can see why the table went full panic attack. Meh. Chalk it up to your deck being high caliber and see if you can learn from your mistakes, comrade. Would it have been better to slow roll the Aura Shards and play Ghave simultaneously? Could you have engaged in your own politics to point out a more significant threat than your ability to destroy Artifacts and Enchantments at will? Those are some questions I encourage you to think about as you go into your next games with Ghave. Stick with it!
I'm certainly no Ghave expert, but I think that these colors represent some of the best Stax effects available. Do note that I use the term Stax very liberally to include any card that actively restricts my opponents strategy. This could include cards like Aven Mindcensor, Rule of Law, Anafenza, the Foremost, Leyline of the Void, etc. And since Ghave likes tokens, then it seems reasonable to include the actual Smokestack card since you can easily feed it.
A good starting point would be Dies_to_Doom_Blade's Ghave list, found here. He focuses on Stax as a strategy VERY heavily in the list from an Enchantress perspective, so it may not be a best fit for the deck.
Either way, I would definitely make sure that I had Survival of the Fittest in my deck before considering a heavy Stax/Hate-Bear package. Hate-bears are some of the most effective cards at hindering opponents, so that's where I would start.
The specific Stax/Hate-Bear package that I would strongly consider would look something like this:
I think it might be wise for you to strongly consider a Stax package for your Ghave deck, since it's the best way to keep up with the Blue-based combo decks in cEDH. I don't generally recommend it because most playgroups are quite opposed to it (for obvious and fair reasons) but a cEDH mindset don't care. If Stax buys you time to assemble a combo and your playgroup is ok with it then you should absolutely be doing it. And Abzan colors have some of the strongest options available for hardcore Stax strategies.
No problem, comrade. I'm of the firm opinion that the evolution of Commander player will eventually bring them to a cEDH mindset, and it looks like you've found your way here.
While there are some cards that are pretty expensive, you can actually do quite a bit of effective deck-building with a budget. The decklist I posted doesn't have any cards that are individually worth more than $25 (I think...) so you can begin to acquire some of those pieces. The other benefit to doing so is that even if Ghave doesn't hold your attention forever, those cEDH cards are STILL good in any deck you play them.
I recommend checking out my Kaalia thread for a brief intro to Stax as a concept. I don't go into as much detail as the Stax Bible (found here), but I think it's an approachable way to understand why Stax is a viable option for cED. The summary is that Stax provides non-Blue decks with Time to develop their own gameplan/strategy. Blue based combo decks are simply the best type of deck in cEDH because of stack interaction and card draw and Stax strategies attack the basic pillars of those BLue-based combo decks.
CMC considerations are important because they dictate the number of spells you can cast during a turn cycle. The more spells you can cast, the better your chances of winning (generally speaking, of course). Not that you SHOULD cast a spell every time, but that you CAN cast them.
Deathrite Shaman, in a cEDH meta, is actually a glorious card. It provides grave-hate along with VERY consistent ramping. Fetchlands are just as ubiquitous in cEDH as they are in the more competitive 60 card formats, so the Shaman will nearly ALWAYS have lands to eat in order to generate mana for you. It's a just a really good card in any Golgari based deck.
I omitted Phyrexian Altar for budget reasons, that's it. If you have it, or are willing to spend for it, I absolutely recommend including it. It adds another dimension of combo redundancy to the basic decklist I wrote out earlier while also being a good mana generator with Ghave by itself.
Yes, you generally want cheap tutors so that you can start assembling your win condition as quickly as possible. cEDH decks are trying to win the game as fast as possible and can do so with consistency around T4. It feels terrible to be tapping out for Diabolic Tutor to find the last combo piece you need and then watch someone else cast Ad Nauseam for a bajillion cards and win on their turn.
Welcome to the cEDH forums, Greenhamma! There are a lot of good people in this community and I hope that you find it useful and productive for you.
While cryogen has touched on some of the core philosophy surrounding cEDH, I'll reiterate one of the main points of cEDH as a philosophy to give context to some of my suggestions:
cEDH, as a format, is generally determined around T2-T4 as to who is going to win and who is not going to win. I'm not certain what your personal playgroup is like, but if you're playing with other cEDH'ers then you should expect that every pilot has streamlined their deck so that they have about 4-6 mana available by T3 with a card advantage engine in play or several tutors to have chained together. This means that you should streamline your deck to be RELEVANT by T3, being able to present either interaction for your opponents (meaning that you have instant speed removal for Abzan colors) or you are about a turn away from combo-ing off yourself.
Therefore, I recommend adding in a significant number of instant speed spells to your deck and to critically examine your deck strategy. From what I can gather, it looks like your primary combo revolves around Mikaeus, the Unhallowed with no cheap way to assemble him. I would recommend looking into a Reanimation strategy, including some tutors like Entomb and the cheap reanimation spells like Reanimate and Animate Dead. Victimize is also especially good with Ghave since he can spawn tokens that can feed certain engines and spells.
Some cheap instant speed interaction I'd also recommend are cards like Assassin's Trophy, Abrupt Decay, Mortify, Vindicate, Snuff Out, Toxic Deluge, Swords to Plowshares, Anguished Unmaking, and Pernicious Deed. From experience, all of these cards are at a CMC that allows you to deploy them safely by T2 or T3 while being all-purpose enough to scale into the later stages of the game. It's critical that you get the chance to interact with your opponents since cEDH focuses on maximizing win percentage.
If I were to build Ghave as a deck, I would also check out a small Stax package. Because Ghave can spawn tokens, Smokestack is particularly effective in hindering your opponents' game plans while minimally effecting yours. I'm not sure how you feel about Stax as a strategy personally, but I can tell you that it's VERY effective as a game plan against other cEDH decks.
A rough decklist, from a budget perspective and based on cards that you appear to already have, that I would personally start with would look something like this:
EDIT: While this deck definitely isn't cEDH material, I think it's a good starting point for you in regards to your budget and the combos you're currently running. The next obvious upgrades for your Ghave deck would be the acquisition of fast mana pieces and the 1 CMC tutors (Vampiric Tutor, Worldly Tutor, Survival of the Fittest, etc.). I included Mana Crypt in the deck simply because, in cEDH, it's even better than Sol Ring. With it, you could theoretically cast Ghave on T2 or T3 and begin to start assembling a combo and turning Ghave sideways.
Note that many of your mana accelerants are under 2 CMC, allowing you to at least have 4 mana on T3 so that you can either tutor for a combo or present mana for interaction. The removal package is pretty robust and can be tweaked according to what you play against most frequently.
The primary combo lines involve Ashnod's Altar/Utopia Mycon and Parallel Lives/Anointed Procession/Cathars' Crusade. Assembling one piece of each component will yield infinite mana, infinite tokens, and/or infinite +1/+1 counters on Ghave so you can swing for lethal. I'll assume that you're familiar with how those particular combos work with Ghave. Your win conditions also have good synergy with the rest of the deck as a whole, so there should be minimal dead cards in your maindeck should you not be able to assemble your combo.
I also included a small Stax package so that you slow your opponents down and give yourself time to assemble your own combo. Any one of the Stax pieces will be able to disrupt a specific strategy, so tutor for them wisely and protect them when you can. Of the ones listed, I think that Linvala, Keeper of Silence is the best. She simply shuts down so many combos without affecting your own that she almost immediately becomes a problem card for your opponents.
Welcome to the cEDH forums! In an effort to help build the knowledge pool for Ghave, do you mind sharing a list for Ghave that utilizes Ad Naus? I agree that keeping it low to the ground and focusing in on 1-2 combo lines is ideal, but it would be great to have someone more qualified than myself offer suggestions on how to improve Ghave.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
When playing against the Uril deck, it might not be a bad idea to consider Rampage of the Clans. While you might flood his board with tokens, you can at least stop the Uril from being a flying death monster of doom.
I strongly recommend you check out the Laboratory Maniacs' YouTube channel here. I think it will give you a great guide on how to effectively play cEDH from a sequencing standpoint as well as evaluating opening hands. It's critical that you have either interaction or fast mana in your opening hand so that you don't die.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Competitive Wurms... yeah.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Any new game reports? I recently came across a Combo focused Ghave list that abuses Ad Nauseam and Earthcraft.
Also, Generous Patron is another combo enabler for the deck since you can sac creatures to put +1/+1 counters on your opponent's creatures. I didn't even think about it in Ghave until I saw this combo list (I sadly can't find the link for it...).
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Keep practicing with the deck and learning it. You've already got a solid win percentage with Ghave, so perhaps the Archenemy status you have is somewhat deserved, haha.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Ah, the irony of politics. I'm sorry that you became the target of politics and hate. It happens, particularly since Ghave has a reputation as a Combo commander. And your board state looked pretty awesome too, so I can see why the table went full panic attack. Meh. Chalk it up to your deck being high caliber and see if you can learn from your mistakes, comrade. Would it have been better to slow roll the Aura Shards and play Ghave simultaneously? Could you have engaged in your own politics to point out a more significant threat than your ability to destroy Artifacts and Enchantments at will? Those are some questions I encourage you to think about as you go into your next games with Ghave. Stick with it!
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
A good starting point would be Dies_to_Doom_Blade's Ghave list, found here. He focuses on Stax as a strategy VERY heavily in the list from an Enchantress perspective, so it may not be a best fit for the deck.
Either way, I would definitely make sure that I had Survival of the Fittest in my deck before considering a heavy Stax/Hate-Bear package. Hate-bears are some of the most effective cards at hindering opponents, so that's where I would start.
The specific Stax/Hate-Bear package that I would strongly consider would look something like this:
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Remorseful Cleric
1x Aven Mindcensor
1x Smokestack
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Contamination
Contamination loves tokens and f's up any tri-colored or 4 color mana bases without hurting us too much; the primary combo lines actually involve colorless mana. Linvala, Keeper of Silence is pretty good for reasons that I think are pretty self-explanatory. Storm players HATE Eidolon of Rhetoric and Gaddock Teeg and pretty much every deck hates Aven Mindcensor. I would take the decklist that I posted and cut out Jarad's Orders and Growing Rites of Itlimoc to add in Eidolon of Rhetoric and Contamination.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Welcome to the forums, comrade! Glad to see you here.
Your analysis seems spot on. Have you personally considered a Stax package for your own Ghave list?
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
While there are some cards that are pretty expensive, you can actually do quite a bit of effective deck-building with a budget. The decklist I posted doesn't have any cards that are individually worth more than $25 (I think...) so you can begin to acquire some of those pieces. The other benefit to doing so is that even if Ghave doesn't hold your attention forever, those cEDH cards are STILL good in any deck you play them.
I recommend checking out my Kaalia thread for a brief intro to Stax as a concept. I don't go into as much detail as the Stax Bible (found here), but I think it's an approachable way to understand why Stax is a viable option for cED. The summary is that Stax provides non-Blue decks with Time to develop their own gameplan/strategy. Blue based combo decks are simply the best type of deck in cEDH because of stack interaction and card draw and Stax strategies attack the basic pillars of those BLue-based combo decks.
CMC considerations are important because they dictate the number of spells you can cast during a turn cycle. The more spells you can cast, the better your chances of winning (generally speaking, of course). Not that you SHOULD cast a spell every time, but that you CAN cast them.
Deathrite Shaman, in a cEDH meta, is actually a glorious card. It provides grave-hate along with VERY consistent ramping. Fetchlands are just as ubiquitous in cEDH as they are in the more competitive 60 card formats, so the Shaman will nearly ALWAYS have lands to eat in order to generate mana for you. It's a just a really good card in any Golgari based deck.
I omitted Phyrexian Altar for budget reasons, that's it. If you have it, or are willing to spend for it, I absolutely recommend including it. It adds another dimension of combo redundancy to the basic decklist I wrote out earlier while also being a good mana generator with Ghave by itself.
Yes, you generally want cheap tutors so that you can start assembling your win condition as quickly as possible. cEDH decks are trying to win the game as fast as possible and can do so with consistency around T4. It feels terrible to be tapping out for Diabolic Tutor to find the last combo piece you need and then watch someone else cast Ad Nauseam for a bajillion cards and win on their turn.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
While cryogen has touched on some of the core philosophy surrounding cEDH, I'll reiterate one of the main points of cEDH as a philosophy to give context to some of my suggestions:
cEDH, as a format, is generally determined around T2-T4 as to who is going to win and who is not going to win. I'm not certain what your personal playgroup is like, but if you're playing with other cEDH'ers then you should expect that every pilot has streamlined their deck so that they have about 4-6 mana available by T3 with a card advantage engine in play or several tutors to have chained together. This means that you should streamline your deck to be RELEVANT by T3, being able to present either interaction for your opponents (meaning that you have instant speed removal for Abzan colors) or you are about a turn away from combo-ing off yourself.
Therefore, I recommend adding in a significant number of instant speed spells to your deck and to critically examine your deck strategy. From what I can gather, it looks like your primary combo revolves around Mikaeus, the Unhallowed with no cheap way to assemble him. I would recommend looking into a Reanimation strategy, including some tutors like Entomb and the cheap reanimation spells like Reanimate and Animate Dead. Victimize is also especially good with Ghave since he can spawn tokens that can feed certain engines and spells.
Some cheap instant speed interaction I'd also recommend are cards like Assassin's Trophy, Abrupt Decay, Mortify, Vindicate, Snuff Out, Toxic Deluge, Swords to Plowshares, Anguished Unmaking, and Pernicious Deed. From experience, all of these cards are at a CMC that allows you to deploy them safely by T2 or T3 while being all-purpose enough to scale into the later stages of the game. It's critical that you get the chance to interact with your opponents since cEDH focuses on maximizing win percentage.
If I were to build Ghave as a deck, I would also check out a small Stax package. Because Ghave can spawn tokens, Smokestack is particularly effective in hindering your opponents' game plans while minimally effecting yours. I'm not sure how you feel about Stax as a strategy personally, but I can tell you that it's VERY effective as a game plan against other cEDH decks.
A rough decklist, from a budget perspective and based on cards that you appear to already have, that I would personally start with would look something like this:
1x Ghave, Guru of Spores
Mana Sources (15)
0x Mana Crypt
1x Sol Ring
1x Llanowar Elves
1x Elvish Mystic
1x Elves of Deep Shadow
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Birds of Paradise
1x Avacyn's Pilgrim
1x Utopia Mycon
2x Devoted Druid
2x Golgari Signet
2x Selesnya Signet
2x Orzhov Signet
2x Cryptolith Rite
3x Growing Rites of Itlimoc
Tutors (10)
1x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Demonic Tutor
2x Diabolic Intent
2x Fauna Shaman
2x Eladamri's Call
3x Praetor's Grasp
3x Chord of Calling
4x Jarad's Orders
5x Sidisi, Undead Vizier
8x Razaketh, the Foulblooded
1x Carrion Feeder
3x Ashnod's Altar
4x Parallel Lives
4x Anointed Procession
5x Cathars' Crusade
5x Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest
Win Conditions (5)
2x Blood Artist
2x Zulaport Cutthroat
3x Slimefoot, the Stowaway
3x Fecundity
3x Mentor of the Meek
Removal (12)
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Nature's Claim
1x Path to Exile
2x Assassin's Trophy
2x Abrupt Decay
3x Anguished Unmaking
3x Krosan Grip
3x Vindicate
3x Toxic Deluge
3x Aura Shards
3x Beast Within
4x Grave Pact
1x Skullclamp
2x Sylvan Library
2x Night's Whisper
3x Tymna the Weaver
3x Midnight Reaper
3x Painful Truths
3x Phyrexian Arena
4x Smothering Abomination
5x Krav, the Unredeemed
Recursion (3)
3x Eternal Witness
5x Karmic Guide
6x Sun Titan
Stax (5)
2x Remorseful Cleric
2x Gaddock Teeg
3x Aven Mindcensor
4x Smokestack
4x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
Goodstuff (1)
5x Tendershoot Dryad
33 Lands
EDIT: While this deck definitely isn't cEDH material, I think it's a good starting point for you in regards to your budget and the combos you're currently running. The next obvious upgrades for your Ghave deck would be the acquisition of fast mana pieces and the 1 CMC tutors (Vampiric Tutor, Worldly Tutor, Survival of the Fittest, etc.). I included Mana Crypt in the deck simply because, in cEDH, it's even better than Sol Ring. With it, you could theoretically cast Ghave on T2 or T3 and begin to start assembling a combo and turning Ghave sideways.
Note that many of your mana accelerants are under 2 CMC, allowing you to at least have 4 mana on T3 so that you can either tutor for a combo or present mana for interaction. The removal package is pretty robust and can be tweaked according to what you play against most frequently.
The primary combo lines involve Ashnod's Altar/Utopia Mycon and Parallel Lives/Anointed Procession/Cathars' Crusade. Assembling one piece of each component will yield infinite mana, infinite tokens, and/or infinite +1/+1 counters on Ghave so you can swing for lethal. I'll assume that you're familiar with how those particular combos work with Ghave. Your win conditions also have good synergy with the rest of the deck as a whole, so there should be minimal dead cards in your maindeck should you not be able to assemble your combo.
I also included a small Stax package so that you slow your opponents down and give yourself time to assemble your own combo. Any one of the Stax pieces will be able to disrupt a specific strategy, so tutor for them wisely and protect them when you can. Of the ones listed, I think that Linvala, Keeper of Silence is the best. She simply shuts down so many combos without affecting your own that she almost immediately becomes a problem card for your opponents.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager