I haven't seen a difference in years. There's always a part of the community that takes a huge frustrating pleasure at showing off what's not good in the game. You have your own share of complaints in your post :
I like non-interaction, and that should not be a reason for banning cards (like KCI)
MH isn't going to fix the problem just because wizards barely know something about modern
Players should ask for unbans, not bans, and trying unbans should be done more often. Stoneforge, twin, preordain, and other cards are completely safe. But thanks to the players, the list just keep growing
I believe players complain while they've not yet caught all the layers of a decision. I myself don't always understand why the balance of pros and cons led to a given decision.
About KCI, the card wasn't banned only because it's hard to interact with the combo. You can enjoy non-interaction and be in favor of KCI's ban, right ? Well, I am.
About Wizards, they probably know more about Modern as time flies. Employees who built MH1 aren't the same who built sets in the past. You complain before you even get your hands on the product !
About unbans, well it's not the only priority Wizards has, if it ever is one. New printings have way more chances to fix issues in the format, since Wizards can print anything they like, while unbannable cards are very seldom, and there's only a tiny chance they solve anything at a given time.
It baffles me how certain you seem to be about Wizards, as if the whinier part of the community had the power to make Wizards flinch. They gather data, professional and community feedback, and make a call in order to make the game more balanced, because it is a high priority aspect that leads to more attendance, more money, more influence on the market. Players should ask for whatever they want, and they will no matter what.
You claim Wizards know nothing about Modern, so they probably don't know how to print relevant cards in MH1, and that they also easily ban cards because people complain. But people complain because Wizards don't unban SFM, and I've yet to see the card in the format. Worse ! People complain about Twin (you do), and Wizards don't listen... Double standard anyone ?
So I can see it both ways. You are right that Dig Through Time did not PROVE too good in Modern, so that right there is a slap in the face to many. I can definitely see that. I felt the same way about it, but kind of gave up on supporting it through the years. You gotta pick and choose and your own biases help you do that, right?
I believe you both ignore the fact that we (and Wizards obv) can accurately judge the power of a card before it proved anything in a specific format.
First I'd say it proved to be very strong right away, you just don't remember people talked about DTT too, not only TC. Or rather the way the cards were talked about. It's not because a few articles said TC was better than DTT overall that they claimed DTT was okay. When LSV streamed Jeskai Ascendancy in Dec 2014, I remembered he laughed at the power of the deck and it was a DTT version. He anticipated the axe for the next ban announcement.
Second, we know the P9 would be too degenerate for Legacy. We don't need to see those cards prove anything in Legacy. Same goes with those delve spells in Modern. Wizards got caught by surprise (the same way they were with vehicles and energy in Standard), but reacted asap for the best.
I definitely disagree with you guys, imho Wizards made a smart / next level move that you now question, while you would have behaved bold and it would have led to a bad metagame for a little longer. Anticipation moves ara sometimes the most clever ones.
Thanks to both of you for the replies, and fair enough.
Jeskai Ascendancy is a bit different from everything else, it's the only deck to have played both TC and DTT, even then, pros didn't agree on what was best, DTT was either 4 or 0 but all decks played at least 1 copy of TC, sometimes 4 (check Worlds 2014 decklists).
The way you put it is weird, three decks played 4 DTT and one 4 TC amongst the top 12. The 1-of TC has to be seen as a 5th DTT, i.e. a worse DTT in their eye at that time. Maybe TC was considered the best card afterwards, I don't remember, I was in the Pod crew back then !
My point stands that DTT wouldn't be enjoyable because it has the same role as the cards I compared it to. Only it would be even better in the current metagame. Hard to tell whether control or combo would benefit the most, but it's not a tool that would stop the dreaded linear strategies, so people would complain all the time.
The question I like to ask is what does it bring to the format ? I don't see anything good off the top of my head. Before we see how beneficial it would be in a Tier 3 deck (like U-Tron or Pili-Palol), we can clearly see it would warp the battle up there in the Tier 1 sky.
If the card was unbanned, I could imagine players goggle big, real big !
UU for an instant that digs the top 7 is not happening, but it was fun to exhume that card for a few posts.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
WotC assumed they had to ban both as TC would be replaced by DTT in every deck
It's not quite what they said, and they'd probably have a refined judgement if the community asked them today. DTT is one of the best in its category (i.e. "blue tutors"), it doesn't go in every deck but the decks where it goes suddenly get a huge boost. It's in the same vein as Faithless Looting or Gitaxian Probe in that regard : it's not a wincon but a card that tremendously helps you win by adding consistency to your game plan. If the card was in Modern, players would keep complaining about it and it would constantly be on our "watchlist", which is certainly not a spot where players like to be when we take a look at how much we've been talking about Looting and Stirrings these last couple years.
I've always thought that Dig through Time's banning was way too premature. Treasure Cruise was absurd enough that burn started splashing for it, but DTT costing UU made it much less universal. However it would be no surprise to me if DTT would have turned out too powerful.
Combo decks were already quite threatening with DTT. It's the card that actually pushed Twin to the top for good (even though Twin always were Tier 1 in Modern anyway). Even banned, Twin stayed on top, I think it rings a bell. Jeskai Ascendancy, Storm, Scapeshift, ... let's say the combo decks were already taking advantage of the card and showing up results, so I don't think it was prematured, with a step back.
However, even though Ascendancy Combo died because of Treasure Cruise's banning, it's definitely for the best.
This looks like a redundant topic, but also a useful poll. Players will discuss the same things here as they do in the "official" thread. It'd be nice to have this poll at the begining of the official thread, so we know a bit more about the silent crowd.
Overall, enjoyment seems to equal the ratio between expectation and experience. The more you want from the format, the worse you'll feel.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
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I haven't seen a difference in years. There's always a part of the community that takes a huge frustrating pleasure at showing off what's not good in the game. You have your own share of complaints in your post :
I believe players complain while they've not yet caught all the layers of a decision. I myself don't always understand why the balance of pros and cons led to a given decision.
About KCI, the card wasn't banned only because it's hard to interact with the combo. You can enjoy non-interaction and be in favor of KCI's ban, right ? Well, I am.
About Wizards, they probably know more about Modern as time flies. Employees who built MH1 aren't the same who built sets in the past. You complain before you even get your hands on the product !
About unbans, well it's not the only priority Wizards has, if it ever is one. New printings have way more chances to fix issues in the format, since Wizards can print anything they like, while unbannable cards are very seldom, and there's only a tiny chance they solve anything at a given time.
It baffles me how certain you seem to be about Wizards, as if the whinier part of the community had the power to make Wizards flinch. They gather data, professional and community feedback, and make a call in order to make the game more balanced, because it is a high priority aspect that leads to more attendance, more money, more influence on the market. Players should ask for whatever they want, and they will no matter what.
You claim Wizards know nothing about Modern, so they probably don't know how to print relevant cards in MH1, and that they also easily ban cards because people complain. But people complain because Wizards don't unban SFM, and I've yet to see the card in the format. Worse ! People complain about Twin (you do), and Wizards don't listen... Double standard anyone ?
I believe you both ignore the fact that we (and Wizards obv) can accurately judge the power of a card before it proved anything in a specific format.
First I'd say it proved to be very strong right away, you just don't remember people talked about DTT too, not only TC. Or rather the way the cards were talked about. It's not because a few articles said TC was better than DTT overall that they claimed DTT was okay. When LSV streamed Jeskai Ascendancy in Dec 2014, I remembered he laughed at the power of the deck and it was a DTT version. He anticipated the axe for the next ban announcement.
Second, we know the P9 would be too degenerate for Legacy. We don't need to see those cards prove anything in Legacy. Same goes with those delve spells in Modern. Wizards got caught by surprise (the same way they were with vehicles and energy in Standard), but reacted asap for the best.
I definitely disagree with you guys, imho Wizards made a smart / next level move that you now question, while you would have behaved bold and it would have led to a bad metagame for a little longer. Anticipation moves ara sometimes the most clever ones.
The way you put it is weird, three decks played 4 DTT and one 4 TC amongst the top 12. The 1-of TC has to be seen as a 5th DTT, i.e. a worse DTT in their eye at that time. Maybe TC was considered the best card afterwards, I don't remember, I was in the Pod crew back then !
My point stands that DTT wouldn't be enjoyable because it has the same role as the cards I compared it to. Only it would be even better in the current metagame. Hard to tell whether control or combo would benefit the most, but it's not a tool that would stop the dreaded linear strategies, so people would complain all the time.
The question I like to ask is what does it bring to the format ? I don't see anything good off the top of my head. Before we see how beneficial it would be in a Tier 3 deck (like U-Tron or Pili-Palol), we can clearly see it would warp the battle up there in the Tier 1 sky.
If the card was unbanned, I could imagine players goggle big, real big !
UU for an instant that digs the top 7 is not happening, but it was fun to exhume that card for a few posts.
It's not quite what they said, and they'd probably have a refined judgement if the community asked them today. DTT is one of the best in its category (i.e. "blue tutors"), it doesn't go in every deck but the decks where it goes suddenly get a huge boost. It's in the same vein as Faithless Looting or Gitaxian Probe in that regard : it's not a wincon but a card that tremendously helps you win by adding consistency to your game plan. If the card was in Modern, players would keep complaining about it and it would constantly be on our "watchlist", which is certainly not a spot where players like to be when we take a look at how much we've been talking about Looting and Stirrings these last couple years.
Combo decks were already quite threatening with DTT. It's the card that actually pushed Twin to the top for good (even though Twin always were Tier 1 in Modern anyway). Even banned, Twin stayed on top, I think it rings a bell. Jeskai Ascendancy, Storm, Scapeshift, ... let's say the combo decks were already taking advantage of the card and showing up results, so I don't think it was prematured, with a step back.
Ascendancy played 4 DTTs but only 1 TC. FYI.
Overall, enjoyment seems to equal the ratio between expectation and experience. The more you want from the format, the worse you'll feel.