Dang. Good game, everyone. Especially Rhand and LnG; the two of you played REALLY well D1 and (obviously) well enough D2.
@Anak: Don't feel bad. I was very much suspecting Osie when I died, and I certainly can't say that I wouldn't have made the same choice in your shoes.
@Shadow: Glad I correctly read your alignment. Sad that you died via Despy despite me correctly guarding you.
@Osie: I'm...not sure that I agree that claiming miller was the right play, but I completely understand why you did it. I think I'd be too leery of the claim vig, even if the possibility is small, as the possibility of getting copped is likewise also small.
@KJ: Good job figuring out the gamestate. Sorry you couldn't get anyone to listen to you.
@Shadow: Osie: town or scum? And then what % of certainty would you assign that read?
why...why are you asking me this.
Town - 100%
I really want Osie to get killed.
Because I've been paranoid since Osie claimed miller that he's scum and I wanted to both get your explicit thoughts and gauge how you responded to the question. But I've liked several of his recent responses, so I should probably pack my paranoia away and accept that Osie's just town.
@KJ: What do you make of Anak's incredulity in 183 that everyone wants a No Lynch?
@KJ: I don’t think it’s the sort of “KJ has Scum motivation to slip because...” I think saying “vigs just won’t shoot” specifically indicates the intention to assume a vig could be either alignment, but shows carelessness about it because of course scum vig isn’t going to play nice, and that more likely comes from scum that knows town has the vig token than town. Follow that with you saying you’re going to die tonight, which only scum need to be afraid of, and like, maybe town!you just didn’t pay attention, but it just seems more likely to be you genuinely knowing that you’d die if you got despy-ed
I agree with all of this. Do you feel like KJ's likely enough scum to lynch him rather than No Lynch?
What happened to the No Lynch plan that you seemed to be on board with based on your vote for No Lynch in 145 (following Anak's call to action)? (And yes, I know you've since switched your vote to KJ; question still stands.)
I'm still on board with it, but with a better towncore, I figure a lynch might not be remiss.
I don't feel like your actions match your professed mindset. You were at "solid towncore [Osie/Shadow/Rhand] + probs KJ, gotta figure out Anak/LnG/Cantrip". You then proceeded to vote No Lynch, then towncleared LnG, voted me, reread KJ, towncleared me, voted KJ, then voted Anak. I don't feel like your towncore has changed much (in fact, last I heard, Rhand had dropped down to "townie?" status with me and LnG), but you're still pushing for a lynch rather than No Lynch?
Quote from Osie »
I came back to the thread with a slightly weaker townread on KJ than some of my others, and people questioning KJ's alignment. In particular, LnGrrrR doesn't feel like he's TMI'ing or scumpushing KJ. I then focused in on KJ's ISO and in the process reread your interactions with him and liked some of the thoughts at least on him and on Shadow in your posts, in particular 161 and 172.
I'd just like to mention that I find it odd that the first time you read my 161 and 172 you voted me in your next post. And then, about 8 hours later, you reread and said "Cantrip's 172 and Killjoy's response in 174 are a much better look for Cantrip and a much worse look for Killjoy." I really don't know what to make of this. That's a very small window to find me scummy enough to vote, reread, and pull a 180.
Quote from Osie »
Then KJ did a bunch of busywork (I know that's hypocritical of me, but people can go away if that's what they want to scumread me on), and while I wasn't happy with a lot of your question post, Killjoy's answers were way worse.
Once I started scumreading KJ, then I looked back even more at you and LnGrrrR and saw some reasonable potential for genuine thought processes there, including what I mentioned about Shadow and Killjoy for you, and that LnGrrrR's read on Killjoy doesn't feel manufactured.
Ok, I guess. It still feels like you just felt like town reading LnG, but at least I have some thoughts on record.
I'll respond to y'all after work today. I will say that everyone's gonna look pretty dumb when I eventually flip.
This is such a silly attack. If you are town, you know that people get mislynched, and that’s a bummer, but it’s not because everyone is dumb. If you’re scum, it’s a great way to subtly hint that people should lynch you because of pride.
True on that. That's a fair point, though I imagine the question or answer was somehow not entirely clear between the two of you, since the Thief role is VERY straight-forward as someone who takes a way an item or token.
My sincerest apologies, Osie, as I apparently can't read. Tom pointed out what I missed in his PM to me; the thief works as you're indicating.
Do me a favor though @Shadow. Show me the mindset behind my posts that makes them scum and not just mistakes with no relevence to my alignment. I kinda feel like people are scumreading me for actions and not digging too deep into what I might be actually thinking.
Do you specifically want Shadow to do this, or can I respond?
Quote from KJ »
Rhand might be town? After reexamining his posts, his progression seems the most natural. Also asking me if I'm drunk kinda says to me that he's trying to figure me out, and was confused at where my head could be at in that context.
I don't see this as alignment indicative. Why is it unlikely that scum would ask that of you? (Also, I could see *me* saying something like that to a scumbuddy if said buddy came into the thread posting a little haphazardly like you did.)
Quote from KJ »
Anak's progression feels fine? I also kind of like 183.
What did you like about it?
Quote from KJ »
Cantrip is not actively scumreading me so he's for sure not one of the bandwagony weakreasoners.
I may not be calling for your lynch, but that doesn't mean that I'm not scumreading you. I'm certainly raising an eyebrow at a good majority of your posts so far.
Oh, and Tom got back to me and said that Osie's explanations in 36 look accurate (but didn't weigh in on Osie's observation in 107). Thief steals a token, but the number of tokens for the player he steals from doesn't change.
He also confirmed that the Despy dies if he targets town or Godfather, and kills scum, miller, or anyone framed.
As the number one authority on mechanics in this setup, if the thief steals an item from someone, the number of items that player has will go down.
Also, I tend to default to the thief stealing the bread before the token to maximize interaction between roles.
... Since *Tom's the final authority in his *own* game, I'm going to defer to him. 😆 He told me explicitly that the number of tokens doesn't change. Ask him yourself.
I'll respond to your other post when I have more time.
Oh, and Tom got back to me and said that Osie's explanations in 36 look accurate (but didn't weigh in on Osie's observation in 107). Thief steals a token, but the number of tokens for the player he steals from doesn't change.
He also confirmed that the Despy dies if he targets town or Godfather, and kills scum, miller, or anyone framed.
Cantrip - Feels like town Cantrip from Secret Agent, if a bit calmer. Not familiar with Cantrip's scum game. @Cantrip, do you play differently as scum if your opinion?
A year ago I felt very solidly like my town and scum game were indistinguishable because of a few scum games where I got townread all over the place (leading to the quote that Osie's referencing, where I said "it's not my fault that my scumgame is indistinguishable from my town game (it's totally my fault)"). Then I was scum in a game with Tom (Team 2, I think) and he dismantled that perception pretty handily by calling out what he said was my "used car salesman" projection. I think I was doing better in Phantom Tollbooth, but then I got tracked performing the NK and that was that. So...tl;dr: my scumgame is pretty much to play as exactly as my towngame as possible. That probably doesn't help your perception of me at all.
@Cantrip KJ is a but scummy, the I'm dying tonight comment struck me a bit weird. Lng has posted some decent questions which I like. Bit of a townlean currently.
Um...I asked you to weigh in on ME and LnG, not KJ and LnG. Where do you stand on me? Town or scum? And can you point me to some of the questions you liked from LnG?
Quote from Anak »
The thing with T/S lists and such this early is that there is very little to go off of in terms of posts and points of reference. People doing that too early are trying to get towncred for simply stating ratings. It's busy work, it doesn't help much, doesn't really tie you to anyone, it's a good scum tactic.
What do you think it says that many people (more than two) are doing it this game?
Quote from Anak »
Like we are not even 200 posts into this game and people are iso'ing and such and everyone wants a no lynch! This means nobody has to do anything really meaningful in terms of indicating alignment, and yet people keep posting lists and everything.
...the desire for a No Lynch stems from the potential for scum to win N1 if we mislynch/Despy hits town/Claim Vig exists. That's not behavioral,it's a process of logic.
Quote from Anak »
@Cantrip how confident are you in those reads? You're either amazing at parsing out scum from rereads or lying, and hoping that wall gives your some tasty towncred. Without any real votes or wagons our behavioual analysis is suspect at best
Um...what? Are you talking about my 147? I didn't feel particularly confident in any of it; why do you feel like I was being confident? I'm...really confused by your comment. And absence of votes/wagons doesn't mean that we can't behaviorally analyze the game. For example, I feel like Osie has a distinct lack of progression on his LnG read (see below).
I'm actually okay with this at this point since I think I've narrowed it down to Cantrip + Anak with a possible side of WTFOMGBBQ:
Vote Cantripmancer
My despy target would be Cantrip if he's not lynched or Anak otherwise.
What happened to the No Lynch plan that you seemed to be on board with based on your vote for No Lynch in 145 (following Anak's call to action)? (And yes, I know you've since switched your vote to KJ; question still stands.)
Also, what has changed for you on LnG since 102 where you had LnG as your main suspect? In 122 you put me, LnG, and Anak in a group and said if you could remove one of the three, you'd be down for a lynch. And nothing about LnG until 179, where you make the response to LnG about my scumgame and then say you think you've narrowed it down to me+Anak. And then in 184 you say that your review and position reversal on KJ "makes [you] feel better about LnGrrrR too", but nothing in what you discussed about KJ had any bearing on LnG, and you don't say what changed your mind. Can you elaborate, please?
UPDATE: Osie claimed Miller so there can't be a Framer. Aiming at scummy town isn't a bad idea then. [/color]
Is the certainty I hear here one of those things that I'm reading too much into?
@KJ: That sounds like you're completely ruling out any possibility that Osie is lying (i.e. Osie's the Framer, or the Miller/Framer token is the unused one). Am I reading that correctly, and, if so, why are you doing so?
• Am I wrong in believing that thinking about worst case situations pre-game and bringing them up is well within your scum wheelhouse?
What’s your goal with this question even? You know my answer is going to be the same regardless of my alignment, and it’s going to be “No, of course you’re not wrong, my scum wheelhouse is designed to be the same wheelhouse as my town wheelhouse, if not slightly more robust.”
I started off last night with as much of a blank slate as I could, which included suspicion on everyone. When I wrote that question, I wanted to make it clear that you problem solving and deep thinking wasn't a free pass. By the end of my read, you felt pretty likely town. Had I more time/been less tired, I likely would have done more previewing and editing and removed that question entirely.
Quote from shadow »
Quote from Cantrip »
• Per your suggested plan in 15, what's to differentiate between "despy targeted scum and was the NK target" and "despy targeted scum and the NK was successfully doc'd"?
I think you’re trying to ask a different question; if the despy hits scum and also gets NK’d, then both are dead, whereas if despy his scum and the NK gets doc’d, then only the scum would be dead. If you’re asking “what differentiates between the despy hitting town, and the despy hitting scum, but the scum getting doc’d and the despy getting killed?” Then on daystart nothing, but when the doctor claims and also says they doc’d the person that the despy targeted, it becomes clear.
Now that I look at that...I'm not sure exactly what I was asking. It made sense to me at the time. o.O
Was asking for more detail. All he said in 76 was that he was townreading for talking through Osie's claim. Was that all, or was there more to it?
But you specifically asked him for his "impression" of Shadow. I feel like he had just given an impression of Shadow (slight town points due to thoroughly talking through Osie's claim).
So this is about semantics, not substance? Come on Cantrip. You're better than that.
Actually, I'm not. Semantic/editing slips are one of the things I frequently get stuck on and read more into than I ought to. Iirc, stemming from an early game where I caught someone on one and decided they were more reliable than they were. But no, it's not about semantics. Anak's reads up to that point were all within 76 and consisted of indicating believing Osie, finding Rhand scummy for being eager to get to Night, and slight town points to you (for asking people to post so you could get reads) and Shadow (for his follow-up after Osie's claim). He hadn't gone into detail on anyone and hadn't even given a stance on every player in the game (nothing on me or LnG). Your question didn't feel like a follow-up/"give me more" question. It felt like you were saying, "ok, but what about Shadow?"
Quote from KJ »
Quote from KJ »
What you're describing isn't a strawman. I'm not changing any argument then arguing against that... IDK what the actual term is either though. So you're accusing me of misconstruing the facts about how much content LngrrR has put out vs. Anak. I mean, quantify it how you want, I'm not gonna go count their words. I was referring to in comparison to Osie, Shadow, Rhand and myself. As of this post, LnGrrR has 9 posts and Anak has 6. It's 150 posts into the game and they have approx similar postcounts so I asked what put one in front of the other in terms of alignemnt reads.
I wouldn't expect you to count words, but I would expect you to realize that post counts, while suggestive, are not indicative of a player's contributions. If all of LnG's 9 posts are one-liners and Anak's 6 posts are insightful analysis, Anak's put in more work/provided more content. I feel like the opposite is true: I have gotten very little feel from Anak from his posts, while I feel like I have a strong sense of LnG from his posts. I feel like your statement was trying to conflate the two and make them seem like they had made similar contributions, when I don't think that's the case.
And you didn't respond to my question about the use of the phrase "they're both true".
Well, I wanted more. I'm not sure what you're on me for. I wanted more than he had said. I had not gotten a good impression of either.
Ok. I was just surprised, as I had a strong sense of one and not the other, so you trying to put them on equal ??? footing felt off.
Quote from KJ »
And with regards to the bolded: Rhand said that you didn't look good and shadow was probably town regardless of my alignemnt. I asked why he believed both those statements to be true. And why are they both true regardless of my alignemnt.
Are you trying to say I know both those things to be true? Is that where you're oging with this?
Your word choice felt odd. *shrug*
Quote from KJ »
Quote from KJ »
We're gonna lynch eventually though. And when we do start lynching people's scumreads he'll push me first. Ergo, dead town. Especially if Rhand maintains his scumread of me.
I feel like a ton changes after a Day-Night cycle, but I can see your point of view.
You think people will just realize I'm town overnight?
No, I think people will take the information they learn N1 and reassess, which may make absolutely no difference in how you're viewed...or it may make all the difference.
Quote from KJ »
If Cantrip is scum it's most likely with Anak/LnGrrR/Rhand in order.
If Shadow is, Rhand becomes slightly more likely.
Why?
I don't know what to make of KJ's most recent derp moment. It's the latest in a long list of derps that are hard to believe. How're those mechanics coming, KJ?
I honestly didn't even think about the extra kill when I read through things. Kinda just was like "This makes the most sense" and then was like "Oh hey, Shadow and Rhand talked about this. Oh well, can't be too important. I know how this setup works better than anyone."
Was asking for more detail. All he said in 76 was that he was townreading for talking through Osie's claim. Was that all, or was there more to it?
But you specifically asked him for his "impression" of Shadow. I feel like he had just given an impression of Shadow (slight town points due to thoroughly talking through Osie's claim).
Quote from KJ »
Wait, to clarify: you're saying you think I'm scum that forgot there was an NK? I'm unsure what you're saying here.
No, I'm saying that there's a possibility that you tried for a slightly humorous derp clear to help explain some of your game stances.
Quote from KJ »
What you're describing isn't a strawman. I'm not changing any argument then arguing against that... IDK what the actual term is either though. So you're accusing me of misconstruing the facts about how much content LngrrR has put out vs. Anak. I mean, quantify it how you want, I'm not gonna go count their words. I was referring to in comparison to Osie, Shadow, Rhand and myself. As of this post, LnGrrR has 9 posts and Anak has 6. It's 150 posts into the game and they have approx similar postcounts so I asked what put one in front of the other in terms of alignemnt reads.
I wouldn't expect you to count words, but I would expect you to realize that post counts, while suggestive, are not indicative of a player's contributions. If all of LnG's 9 posts are one-liners and Anak's 6 posts are insightful analysis, Anak's put in more work/provided more content. I feel like the opposite is true: I have gotten very little feel from Anak from his posts, while I feel like I have a strong sense of LnG from his posts. I feel like your statement was trying to conflate the two and make them seem like they had made similar contributions, when I don't think that's the case.
And you didn't respond to my question about the use of the phrase "they're both true".
Quote from KJ »
We're gonna lynch eventually though. And when we do start lynching people's scumreads he'll push me first. Ergo, dead town. Especially if Rhand maintains his scumread of me.
I feel like a ton changes after a Day-Night cycle, but I can see your point of view.
@Cantrip, why do you feel a lot less excited for this game rather than secret agent? Real life stuff? Overall I liked your catchup, though I will have to look at specific posts you referenced.
I'm definitely less playful this game, mostly because when I signed up I didn't think the game would fire quite so soon. This last week was a big project week so I had less time than usual, and then the blizzard threw everything out of whack, and I just feel like I'm playing catchup. :/
Hm now I'm wondering if Cantrip and KJ being scum together even makes sense.
Does Cantrip ever bus?
Yes, I sometimes do. I can't point to an instance off the top of my head, but I'm certainly not afraid to.
Rhand, I knew when I made the post last night that my comments on Shadow weren't adequate. But I was tired and whatever. Yes, it's possible Shadow is scum, and yes, my highlighting of his scum wheelhouse was me expressing a healthy suspicion of his skill, but the rest of his posts just felt generally townie. Not standout town, like LnG's 83, but pretty straitlaced. So I feel like he's likely town, except for the slight paranoia that comes from not having much to remark upon his other posts. I would have thought I would have found something else suspicious or something extra townie, and I...just didn't. So I want to iso him and apply a little more scrutiny.
Compared to Anak, who I also didn't have further questions for, but overall I didn't get much of a feeling for at all.
Shadow got townread because he had a lot of posts, most of which left me with a generally good feeling. Anak gets put near the bottom because he had few posts, none of which gave me much of a feeling.
In 43 you say "most of the time, [me claiming Miller] helps the town more than it hurts it, it's just risky." Is there more "help" than narrowing cop targets? Why does that outweigh the possibility of an extra scum kill, even if the percentage of scum having a claim vig is small?
I think this is the only real question for me?
Unless scum think I'm incompetent or an easy mislynch (both of which could be the case, I guess), then I'm the target of a nightkill.
So you claiming miller narrows cop targets and draws the NK to you, with a slight chance of an extra mafia kill if they have the claim vig? Again, why do those two benefits outweigh the possibility of an extra kill, especially since, if you are playing well, you would be less likely to be copped and more likely to be NK'd, anyway?
Also, I really would like to know how serious your 68 was.
@Tom: Since you didn't respond to my PM, will you respond in-thread? Can you explicitly state what the thief role does?
While you're at it, will you publicly confirm what happens if Despy targets GF/framed town/miller? (Does the Despy "see" the actual alignment or the "fake" alignment?)
And is Osie's 107 accurate ("...if the Thief steals from someone who has already used their ability but didn't have their token stolen, and then gets motivated, they can use the scum side of that token.")?
@Shadow:
• Why didn't you vote anyone in RVS?
• Am I wrong in believing that thinking about worst case situations pre-game and bringing them up is well within your scum wheelhouse?
• Per your suggested plan in 15, what's to differentiate between "despy targeted scum and was the NK target" and "despy targeted scum and the NK was successfully doc'd"?
• ...and I apparently didn't read any of your posts after 15? I actually didn't have any questions or concerns with your other posts, which is odd enough that now I'm thinking I need to read your iso. But I've made everyone wait too long already, and I've got other projects to catch up on, so I'll do that next opportunity.
@Rhand:
• Your 14 feels a bit like fearmongering, in that you are proposing a plan of action (No despy shot + no miller claim), identifying a problem with that plan ("we can’t push anyone to claim and then not lynch them"), and then apparently giving up rather than offering alternative solutions.
• Your point that Osie's unlikely to be scum for the miller claim is a good one, and I feel like you're town for it unless specifically scum with Osie.
• Some mindmeld with your thought in 63 that unless we go for narrowed targets with the despy plan, we're letting scum plan around it, but I like Shadow's response to that in the next post.
@Killjoy:
• Something feels off about your 24. I started out thinking it felt bloodthirsty, but that's not quite it.
• Why did you ask Anak how he felt about Shadow in 82 when Anak had just recently indicated awarding slight town points to Shadow in 76?
• As I already mentioned, it's hard for me to wrap my head around a town player not considering the NK.
• I really don't like your question to Shadow in 120 about his order of LnG and Anak. Your addendum of "they're both kinda the same in terms of activity and content" feels like a logical fallacy...strawman, maybe? I feel like LnG has contributed quite a bit more to the conversation than Anak has, and I definitely have a stronger sense of LnG's presence/opinion. I feel like if you flip scum, there's a good chance your buddy is one of the two. The part of that post when you question Rhand on his reads of me and Shadow feels false, as well. Why did you use the phrase "why are those both true"? (specifically the bolded)?
• In 132, when you say that scum!Shadow has "dead town" to gain from letting Rhand push you...how exactly, when we're not lynching toDay?
@Osie:
• You talked quite a lot in 25 about what you didn't lose by claiming miller. What do/did you gain from claiming miller?
• Oh, you expounded in 33. Ok, so less chance you get copped, and you feel confident enough in your ability that if scum don't kill you, you'll be able to figure it out. You do realize that you saying that you haven't much thought about scum equity of such a plan doesn't do anything for us, right? And, especially given your posting restriction choices in Scum Love the King, I don't really see scum!Osie as a "go with the flow" kind of player. The scum equity of such a plan, by the way, is very similar: less chance you get copped, less question as to why you're still alive late game (because the scum are trying to lynch you, obv), less chance of being watched, and greater chance the doc or bodyguard wastes their shots on you.
• In 43 you say "most of the time, [me claiming Miller] helps the town more than it hurts it, it's just risky." Is there more "help" than narrowing cop targets? Why does that outweigh the possibility of an extra scum kill, even if the percentage of scum having a claim vig is small?
• 49: Yes, you should declare a fake Despy target.
• Your 68.....wut? Did you seriously just suggest, even on a very low-level, that my RVS was a chainsaw? The 4th post of the game?
• Re: your 101, I can't help but tinfoil the possibility that you're on the scum team, there's a claim vig, you know the miller/framer card isn't in play (or one of you is the framer), and your 101 is designed to set up a scenario where the claim vig doesn't shoot N1 to "confirm" you/suggest that there's no claim vig, regular NK occurs, single mislynch D2 + NK OR Claim Vig seals the deal.
@LnG:
• Your question to Osie in 30 doesn't make sense. Osie voted Rhand for 14, not for Rhand's vote of you in 4. That said, I'm guessing this was probably a post confusion derp.
• I don't understand why you would suspect Osie of a town gambit only to expose the possibility of that gambit (rather than using Osie's responses to justify a town read on him).
• I like your train of thought in 52. Doesn't sound like the kind of corner case thinking that would come from scum trying to shade Osie. Unless you're specifically scum with Osie and this is a planned gambit (which I think is unlikely), this puts you at townlean for me.
• Your 83 feels very open and townie.
@Anak:
• 56: Why do you hate early T/S lists?
• How do I not have any other questions for you? I apparently need to iso you, too.
• Hmm, actually, what are your thoughts on me and LnG?
Actually, can you hold off just a little longer, please? I spent some time this afternoon reading the thread with a critical eye--first chance I've really gotten since the game began--and I have some questions/observations that I'm compiling. Post to come shortly.
Sorry for my lack of contribution. We're having a lot of fun right now with a blizzard that has played havoc with everything in my life, including my internet access.
I agree with the no lynch plan, but I'm unsure about the "name a target" plan. Would we be naming who we planned to target [with our own ability, which we won't disclose], or who we planned to target [if we were the despy]?
Something about Anak's posts feels off, but maybe that's just because he's returning from hiatus.
Unvote
KJ's apparent lack of consideration of the entire setup or that we're playing mafia doesn't feel likely.
@Osie: I don't understand your explanation of the Thief ability. What item(s) can the thief end up with if not the ability of his target? I have the question in to Tom, but I'd like to hear your explanation.
@Anak: Don't feel bad. I was very much suspecting Osie when I died, and I certainly can't say that I wouldn't have made the same choice in your shoes.
@Shadow: Glad I correctly read your alignment. Sad that you died via Despy despite me correctly guarding you.
@Osie: I'm...not sure that I agree that claiming miller was the right play, but I completely understand why you did it. I think I'd be too leery of the claim vig, even if the possibility is small, as the possibility of getting copped is likewise also small.
@KJ: Good job figuring out the gamestate. Sorry you couldn't get anyone to listen to you.
Thanks, Tom. This was fun. Loved the gifs.
@KJ: What do you make of Anak's incredulity in 183 that everyone wants a No Lynch?
I agree with all of this. Do you feel like KJ's likely enough scum to lynch him rather than No Lynch?
I'd just like to mention that I find it odd that the first time you read my 161 and 172 you voted me in your next post. And then, about 8 hours later, you reread and said "Cantrip's 172 and Killjoy's response in 174 are a much better look for Cantrip and a much worse look for Killjoy." I really don't know what to make of this. That's a very small window to find me scummy enough to vote, reread, and pull a 180.
Ok, I guess. It still feels like you just felt like town reading LnG, but at least I have some thoughts on record.
/barn
My sincerest apologies, Osie, as I apparently can't read. Tom pointed out what I missed in his PM to me; the thief works as you're indicating.
What are Elli-tells?
Why are you feeling more certain here?
Do you specifically want Shadow to do this, or can I respond?
I don't see this as alignment indicative. Why is it unlikely that scum would ask that of you? (Also, I could see *me* saying something like that to a scumbuddy if said buddy came into the thread posting a little haphazardly like you did.)
What did you like about it?
I may not be calling for your lynch, but that doesn't mean that I'm not scumreading you. I'm certainly raising an eyebrow at a good majority of your posts so far.
I'll respond to your other post when I have more time.
He also confirmed that the Despy dies if he targets town or Godfather, and kills scum, miller, or anyone framed.
A year ago I felt very solidly like my town and scum game were indistinguishable because of a few scum games where I got townread all over the place (leading to the quote that Osie's referencing, where I said "it's not my fault that my scumgame is indistinguishable from my town game (it's totally my fault)"). Then I was scum in a game with Tom (Team 2, I think) and he dismantled that perception pretty handily by calling out what he said was my "used car salesman" projection. I think I was doing better in Phantom Tollbooth, but then I got tracked performing the NK and that was that. So...tl;dr: my scumgame is pretty much to play as exactly as my towngame as possible. That probably doesn't help your perception of me at all.
Um...I asked you to weigh in on ME and LnG, not KJ and LnG. Where do you stand on me? Town or scum? And can you point me to some of the questions you liked from LnG?
What do you think it says that many people (more than two) are doing it this game?
...the desire for a No Lynch stems from the potential for scum to win N1 if we mislynch/Despy hits town/Claim Vig exists. That's not behavioral,it's a process of logic.
Um...what? Are you talking about my 147? I didn't feel particularly confident in any of it; why do you feel like I was being confident? I'm...really confused by your comment. And absence of votes/wagons doesn't mean that we can't behaviorally analyze the game. For example, I feel like Osie has a distinct lack of progression on his LnG read (see below).
What happened to the No Lynch plan that you seemed to be on board with based on your vote for No Lynch in 145 (following Anak's call to action)? (And yes, I know you've since switched your vote to KJ; question still stands.)
Also, what has changed for you on LnG since 102 where you had LnG as your main suspect? In 122 you put me, LnG, and Anak in a group and said if you could remove one of the three, you'd be down for a lynch. And nothing about LnG until 179, where you make the response to LnG about my scumgame and then say you think you've narrowed it down to me+Anak. And then in 184 you say that your review and position reversal on KJ "makes [you] feel better about LnGrrrR too", but nothing in what you discussed about KJ had any bearing on LnG, and you don't say what changed your mind. Can you elaborate, please?
@KJ: That sounds like you're completely ruling out any possibility that Osie is lying (i.e. Osie's the Framer, or the Miller/Framer token is the unused one). Am I reading that correctly, and, if so, why are you doing so?
Now that I look at that...I'm not sure exactly what I was asking. It made sense to me at the time. o.O
Actually, I'm not. Semantic/editing slips are one of the things I frequently get stuck on and read more into than I ought to. Iirc, stemming from an early game where I caught someone on one and decided they were more reliable than they were. But no, it's not about semantics. Anak's reads up to that point were all within 76 and consisted of indicating believing Osie, finding Rhand scummy for being eager to get to Night, and slight town points to you (for asking people to post so you could get reads) and Shadow (for his follow-up after Osie's claim). He hadn't gone into detail on anyone and hadn't even given a stance on every player in the game (nothing on me or LnG). Your question didn't feel like a follow-up/"give me more" question. It felt like you were saying, "ok, but what about Shadow?"
Ok. I was just surprised, as I had a strong sense of one and not the other, so you trying to put them on equal ??? footing felt off.
Your word choice felt odd. *shrug*
No, I think people will take the information they learn N1 and reassess, which may make absolutely no difference in how you're viewed...or it may make all the difference.
Why?
I don't know what to make of KJ's most recent derp moment. It's the latest in a long list of derps that are hard to believe. How're those mechanics coming, KJ?
But you specifically asked him for his "impression" of Shadow. I feel like he had just given an impression of Shadow (slight town points due to thoroughly talking through Osie's claim).
No, I'm saying that there's a possibility that you tried for a slightly humorous derp clear to help explain some of your game stances.
I wouldn't expect you to count words, but I would expect you to realize that post counts, while suggestive, are not indicative of a player's contributions. If all of LnG's 9 posts are one-liners and Anak's 6 posts are insightful analysis, Anak's put in more work/provided more content. I feel like the opposite is true: I have gotten very little feel from Anak from his posts, while I feel like I have a strong sense of LnG from his posts. I feel like your statement was trying to conflate the two and make them seem like they had made similar contributions, when I don't think that's the case.
And you didn't respond to my question about the use of the phrase "they're both true".
I feel like a ton changes after a Day-Night cycle, but I can see your point of view.
Phantom Tollbooth, Team 2 (Giant Robot), Arkham Horror, Off the Grid IV.
I'm definitely less playful this game, mostly because when I signed up I didn't think the game would fire quite so soon. This last week was a big project week so I had less time than usual, and then the blizzard threw everything out of whack, and I just feel like I'm playing catchup. :/
Yes, I sometimes do. I can't point to an instance off the top of my head, but I'm certainly not afraid to.
Rhand, I knew when I made the post last night that my comments on Shadow weren't adequate. But I was tired and whatever. Yes, it's possible Shadow is scum, and yes, my highlighting of his scum wheelhouse was me expressing a healthy suspicion of his skill, but the rest of his posts just felt generally townie. Not standout town, like LnG's 83, but pretty straitlaced. So I feel like he's likely town, except for the slight paranoia that comes from not having much to remark upon his other posts. I would have thought I would have found something else suspicious or something extra townie, and I...just didn't. So I want to iso him and apply a little more scrutiny.
Compared to Anak, who I also didn't have further questions for, but overall I didn't get much of a feeling for at all.
Shadow got townread because he had a lot of posts, most of which left me with a generally good feeling. Anak gets put near the bottom because he had few posts, none of which gave me much of a feeling.
Also, I really would like to know how serious your 68 was.
While you're at it, will you publicly confirm what happens if Despy targets GF/framed town/miller? (Does the Despy "see" the actual alignment or the "fake" alignment?)
And is Osie's 107 accurate ("...if the Thief steals from someone who has already used their ability but didn't have their token stolen, and then gets motivated, they can use the scum side of that token.")?
@Shadow:
• Why didn't you vote anyone in RVS?
• Am I wrong in believing that thinking about worst case situations pre-game and bringing them up is well within your scum wheelhouse?
• Per your suggested plan in 15, what's to differentiate between "despy targeted scum and was the NK target" and "despy targeted scum and the NK was successfully doc'd"?
• ...and I apparently didn't read any of your posts after 15? I actually didn't have any questions or concerns with your other posts, which is odd enough that now I'm thinking I need to read your iso. But I've made everyone wait too long already, and I've got other projects to catch up on, so I'll do that next opportunity.
@Rhand:
• Your 14 feels a bit like fearmongering, in that you are proposing a plan of action (No despy shot + no miller claim), identifying a problem with that plan ("we can’t push anyone to claim and then not lynch them"), and then apparently giving up rather than offering alternative solutions.
• Your point that Osie's unlikely to be scum for the miller claim is a good one, and I feel like you're town for it unless specifically scum with Osie.
• Some mindmeld with your thought in 63 that unless we go for narrowed targets with the despy plan, we're letting scum plan around it, but I like Shadow's response to that in the next post.
@Killjoy:
• Something feels off about your 24. I started out thinking it felt bloodthirsty, but that's not quite it.
• Why did you ask Anak how he felt about Shadow in 82 when Anak had just recently indicated awarding slight town points to Shadow in 76?
• As I already mentioned, it's hard for me to wrap my head around a town player not considering the NK.
• I really don't like your question to Shadow in 120 about his order of LnG and Anak. Your addendum of "they're both kinda the same in terms of activity and content" feels like a logical fallacy...strawman, maybe? I feel like LnG has contributed quite a bit more to the conversation than Anak has, and I definitely have a stronger sense of LnG's presence/opinion. I feel like if you flip scum, there's a good chance your buddy is one of the two. The part of that post when you question Rhand on his reads of me and Shadow feels false, as well. Why did you use the phrase "why are those both true"? (specifically the bolded)?
• In 132, when you say that scum!Shadow has "dead town" to gain from letting Rhand push you...how exactly, when we're not lynching toDay?
@Osie:
• You talked quite a lot in 25 about what you didn't lose by claiming miller. What do/did you gain from claiming miller?
• Oh, you expounded in 33. Ok, so less chance you get copped, and you feel confident enough in your ability that if scum don't kill you, you'll be able to figure it out. You do realize that you saying that you haven't much thought about scum equity of such a plan doesn't do anything for us, right? And, especially given your posting restriction choices in Scum Love the King, I don't really see scum!Osie as a "go with the flow" kind of player. The scum equity of such a plan, by the way, is very similar: less chance you get copped, less question as to why you're still alive late game (because the scum are trying to lynch you, obv), less chance of being watched, and greater chance the doc or bodyguard wastes their shots on you.
• In 43 you say "most of the time, [me claiming Miller] helps the town more than it hurts it, it's just risky." Is there more "help" than narrowing cop targets? Why does that outweigh the possibility of an extra scum kill, even if the percentage of scum having a claim vig is small?
• 49: Yes, you should declare a fake Despy target.
• Your 68.....wut? Did you seriously just suggest, even on a very low-level, that my RVS was a chainsaw? The 4th post of the game?
• Re: your 101, I can't help but tinfoil the possibility that you're on the scum team, there's a claim vig, you know the miller/framer card isn't in play (or one of you is the framer), and your 101 is designed to set up a scenario where the claim vig doesn't shoot N1 to "confirm" you/suggest that there's no claim vig, regular NK occurs, single mislynch D2 + NK OR Claim Vig seals the deal.
@LnG:
• Your question to Osie in 30 doesn't make sense. Osie voted Rhand for 14, not for Rhand's vote of you in 4. That said, I'm guessing this was probably a post confusion derp.
• I don't understand why you would suspect Osie of a town gambit only to expose the possibility of that gambit (rather than using Osie's responses to justify a town read on him).
• I like your train of thought in 52. Doesn't sound like the kind of corner case thinking that would come from scum trying to shade Osie. Unless you're specifically scum with Osie and this is a planned gambit (which I think is unlikely), this puts you at townlean for me.
• Your 83 feels very open and townie.
@Anak:
• 56: Why do you hate early T/S lists?
• How do I not have any other questions for you? I apparently need to iso you, too.
• Hmm, actually, what are your thoughts on me and LnG?
Right now I'm at:
Shadow
LnG
Rhand
Osie
Anak
KJ
I'll reassess after I get some responses.
I agree with the no lynch plan, but I'm unsure about the "name a target" plan. Would we be naming who we planned to target [with our own ability, which we won't disclose], or who we planned to target [if we were the despy]?
Something about Anak's posts feels off, but maybe that's just because he's returning from hiatus.
Unvote
KJ's apparent lack of consideration of the entire setup or that we're playing mafia doesn't feel likely.
@Osie: I don't understand your explanation of the Thief ability. What item(s) can the thief end up with if not the ability of his target? I have the question in to Tom, but I'd like to hear your explanation.
I am drained, sorry I can't muster more atm.