Never got a chance to post after game thoughts, so real quick:
• Thanks to Proph for a fun game! Some cool roles, nifty setup, fair flavor, overall two thumbs up.
• Thanks to everyone for playing fun games. Felt like the energy on this one was way up.
• Nominate Axel for town MVP; his analysis this game was really thorough and, in combination with how/when/where he pushed, made him lock town to me.
• Great job to Tom and Wisp for pushing on in the face of adversity.
• Sorry to my teammates for so quickly doubting my own results. Proph's wording combined with others saying they got specifics made me feel like shenanigans were more likely than me just catching Tom lying for no reason, so... meh.
Wisp, yes, it definitely should be between KJ and Tom. I was just triggered because I really don't think Shadow seriously considers me a likely Tom buddy in this situation, so I wanted to express my suspicion, and strongly.
Vote Tom
I definitely feel like Tom's more likely than KJ, and I hope I'm right.
EWP: No matter what Tom's flip, Shadow needs to claim toMorrow. So we can learn why we're never lunching him.
Chris could be Toms buddy. (So also could Cantrip )
So after two of my buddies got lunched D1 and D2, my D3 plan was to come out of the gate with a "Tom lied" check and push him hard? And even if that was uber-distancing that I didn't expect to actually result in Tom's lunch, my D4 plan was to...double-down with KJ's anti-interference backing me up and REALLY push for him to be the lunch? When I could just as easily have gone "oh, hey, my ability was successful N3; Tom really is Infect. Guess we have a redirector"?
I thought you could read me, Shadow. This gets you a huge .
In fact, since I've apparently destroyed my chances of lunching Tom, I think I'll just
Vote Shadow <-- There, that dismantles my buddy Tom's wagon except for lone rider Axelrod, who, coincidentally, is my other buddy.
Tom, if you're town, we never lose to a team with KJ. If they leave me alive, I will fight tooth and nail to lunch him toMorrow. If they kill me, everyone will know I was telling the truth, and they'll lunch KJ. I'm much more worried about combinations involving Vez and/or Shadow.
Chris: If Tom flips scum, also probably town. Again, if he was scum with Tom he wouldn't have confirmed success targeting Tom without knowing if I had also tried to target Tom/been unsuccessful.
He wouldn't have what now? Chris targeted KCC.
Sorry...he wouldn't have confirmed that KCC successfully targeted Tom.
I mean its possible that Chris outs that information even if he's wolf buddies with Tom because there was nothing detrimental coming from it, I mean anything more detrimental to be fair, it didn't look worse till after Axelrod confirmed the accuracy of it, possibly distancing maybe? if tom is a wolf, like him and the last wolf probably are cutting their loses and spending the time trying to distance
But if he's wolves with Tom, then he knows something would prevent Tom being targeted (either at all or by me). And he didn't yet know who KJ targeted, so if it was a redirect targeting me to get me away from Tom, then reporting that KCC targeted Tom, followed by KJ saying he targeted me puts Tom under tons of scrutiny (as is the case, and may yet get Tom lunched). If he knows something would prevent Tom being targeted at all, then saying KCC successfully targeted Tom results in issues if ANYONE targeted Tom, not just me.
I guess it could be a really extreme form of distancing (or maybe an attempt to discredit me?), but neither of those seem likely?
I have a problem. If Tom flips scum, I have pretty strong reasons for thinking everyone left is town:
Axel: Town. You don't bust your hump exploring logic that results in neon flashing arrows pointing at multiple buddies. Vez: Pretty heavy town lean from the way he counterclaimed Az. Unless Az specifically said something like "I'm not going to have time to play this game so you should counterclaim me out of the box for super town pants", probably never happens. Shadow: Leaning town from his behavior/actions regarding the Az wagon and then the Grape wagon. I said if Grape flipped scum Shadow was unlikely to be scum, and I still feel that to be the case. KJ: If Tom flips scum, KJ's probably town, as saying he aceticized me (whether he actually did or not) when I was likely gunning for Tom wouldn't do Tom any favors. Possible that KJ's scum with Tom if he knew something on Tom's side was already going to mess with my results and aceticizing me wouldn't make a difference, but...probably town. If Tom flips town, then KJ is scum. Chris: If Tom flips scum, also probably town. Again, if he was scum with Tom he wouldn't have confirmed success targeting Tom without knowing if I had also tried to target Tom/been unsuccessful. If Tom flips town, he's still in the PoE. Wisp: Town lean from Az's early interaction with Syrenz. This is certainly the weakest of these reads, but I still feel like Az was attacking Syrenz, not coaching.
So as long as Tom flips scum, it's all good; he's obviously the last scum.
Not sure if this points to Tom being town (and the team is just KJ/Chris or KJ/Wisp), or if I'm horribly wrong on one of the above and desperately need to reread...which may actually have a chance of happening soon, as I'm nearing the end of a large project at work...
inb4 Tom's role is "Standard Deck of 52 Playing Cards, Neutral 1-Shot Dayvig Survivor", which would throw everything off...
Tom, if you're town, we never lose to a team with KJ. If they leave me alive, I will fight tooth and nail to lunch him toMorrow. If they kill me, everyone will know I was telling the truth, and they'll lunch KJ. I'm much more worried about combinations involving Vez and/or Shadow.
Killjoy, what are your thoughts? Is Tom scum? Do you want to lunch him, or is there someone else you want to examine? It feels like you're holding your breath for a Tom lunch, which makes me very nervous.
I just iso'd your posts toDay and I feel like you're going out of your way to call me scum without outright saying so. Do you know that Tom's going to flip town?
Tom, I really don't know what to think. I'm hoping you're just trying to get us to go "oh, he's so calm and rational, he can't be scum". If I'm being played mechanically, I'm going to be really disappointed.
Thread died; does that mean we're ready to move forward with lunching Tom, or do we need to discuss further? Anyone having second thoughts on Tom?
Chris, ftr, Vaimes also was skeptical that my results didn't explicitly confirm Tom as my target. He said his results were explicit that he targeted KCC N2. I originally didn't think that the way Proph responded to me was bad, just not as explicit. Now I'm sorta wondering if maybe Tom is acetic-ish/Godfather-ish/something? Because it does feel weird that everyone is saying they got names and confirmation back in their results and I just have "You have guessed wrong, so no action for you!"
@Cantrip
Why did Vaimes not target Tom on night 2, the night after he learned that Tom was a vig?
I already mentioned the most straightforward reason he gave, but here's a summary of our discussion about his possible N2 targets:
He played around with just double-tapping you (which I was also generally ok with, btw, but mentioned that it sounded like your role could be reasonably powerful, so if town it might be nice for it to go off. Also mentioned that you would probably be a hard sell for me to make if we wanted to maintain the facade that I was the vig since I had been town reading you so hard). We didn't discuss it much further until I claimed Vaimes' role and the thread was like "oh, two town vigs is totally possible" and then he started mentioning KCC as a possible target. He talked about resolving Chris because there was so much discussion on him at one point.
I wasn't pushing Tom as a target because a) I didn't know if Vaimes was telling the truth, and b) the math I was playing with made it seem highly likely to me that either Vaimes and Tom were both town, OR scum!Tom actually did gain his dayshot because of Az's death. I was suspicious that Vaimes wasn't even discussing the possibility, so I asked him outright. He said he thought we could get Tom lunched, but that KCC would be a lot harder to lunch because of thread opinion. He looked at wagons and hypothesized who might be scum trying to get Tom lunched (decided that KCC was more likely than Osie). He looked at 1.22 and 1.23 and said that if either Tom or Shadow were town, KCC was really really likely to be scum. I brought up Tom being a Grape counterwagon and he agreed that was another reason not to shoot Tom.
Quote from Wisp »
if we lynch a wolf today, then there is highly likely only one wolf alive tomorrow based on the size of this game, so that would be a great time to at least claim deck names, since then in a world where Cantrip is town, he can stop the nightkill, and out the last wolf, which I still think the chances of him being town are higher than him being mafia
This is a good point. I'd push for a mass deck-nameclaim toDay except if scum also have a role that cares about deck names, I'd rather both of us were restricted in target options than that we both could target whomever.
Quote from Wisp »
I like that Tom isnt trying to push this narrative that Cantrip has to be a wolf, and continues to defend him based on content, looks better for him
It's really frustrating that he's doing so, actually, because if he's town, I'm going to feel really bad about going after him when he's got such a good read on me. Of course, the paranoia is telling me that he's "figured out" that I'm town because he's scum. (Another wifom moment: scum!me who has fooled town!Tom (especially Tom!) into thinking I'm town never tries to get him lunched, especially when he's essentially vanilla.)
(Regarding massclaim, though, I've been tinfoiling since D2 that Shadow is scum and wants to add another unlocked achievement to his signature: "Win as scum just by saying 'These are not the droids you're looking for' whenever you come under fire." )
• Thanks to Proph for a fun game! Some cool roles, nifty setup, fair flavor, overall two thumbs up.
• Thanks to everyone for playing fun games. Felt like the energy on this one was way up.
• Nominate Axel for town MVP; his analysis this game was really thorough and, in combination with how/when/where he pushed, made him lock town to me.
• Great job to Tom and Wisp for pushing on in the face of adversity.
• Sorry to my teammates for so quickly doubting my own results. Proph's wording combined with others saying they got specifics made me feel like shenanigans were more likely than me just catching Tom lying for no reason, so... meh.
Dear Scum, if somehow Tom and KJ are both town, you should put your game on hard mode and kill KJ tonight.
tomsloger (3): Axelrod, shadowlancerx, Cantripmancer
Killjoy (4): tomsloger, Sir Chris, Lastwhisper, vezokpiraka
Abstain (1): Killjoy
Or:
YAY I GUILTED SHADOW INTO BUSSING HIS LAST BUDDY
(See what I did there?)
Wisp, yes, it definitely should be between KJ and Tom. I was just triggered because I really don't think Shadow seriously considers me a likely Tom buddy in this situation, so I wanted to express my suspicion, and strongly.
Vote Tom
I definitely feel like Tom's more likely than KJ, and I hope I'm right.
EWP: No matter what Tom's flip, Shadow needs to claim toMorrow. So we can learn why we're never lunching him.
I thought you could read me, Shadow. This gets you a huge .
In fact, since I've apparently destroyed my chances of lunching Tom, I think I'll just
Vote Shadow <-- There, that dismantles my buddy Tom's wagon except for lone rider Axelrod, who, coincidentally, is my other buddy.
rofl, did I just shoot my own Tom-wagon in the foot?
Sorry...he wouldn't have confirmed that KCC successfully targeted Tom.
But if he's wolves with Tom, then he knows something would prevent Tom being targeted (either at all or by me). And he didn't yet know who KJ targeted, so if it was a redirect targeting me to get me away from Tom, then reporting that KCC targeted Tom, followed by KJ saying he targeted me puts Tom under tons of scrutiny (as is the case, and may yet get Tom lunched). If he knows something would prevent Tom being targeted at all, then saying KCC successfully targeted Tom results in issues if ANYONE targeted Tom, not just me.
I guess it could be a really extreme form of distancing (or maybe an attempt to discredit me?), but neither of those seem likely?
Axel: Town. You don't bust your hump exploring logic that results in neon flashing arrows pointing at multiple buddies.
Vez: Pretty heavy town lean from the way he counterclaimed Az. Unless Az specifically said something like "I'm not going to have time to play this game so you should counterclaim me out of the box for super town pants", probably never happens.
Shadow: Leaning town from his behavior/actions regarding the Az wagon and then the Grape wagon. I said if Grape flipped scum Shadow was unlikely to be scum, and I still feel that to be the case.
KJ: If Tom flips scum, KJ's probably town, as saying he aceticized me (whether he actually did or not) when I was likely gunning for Tom wouldn't do Tom any favors. Possible that KJ's scum with Tom if he knew something on Tom's side was already going to mess with my results and aceticizing me wouldn't make a difference, but...probably town. If Tom flips town, then KJ is scum.
Chris: If Tom flips scum, also probably town. Again, if he was scum with Tom he wouldn't have confirmed success targeting Tom without knowing if I had also tried to target Tom/been unsuccessful. If Tom flips town, he's still in the PoE.
Wisp: Town lean from Az's early interaction with Syrenz. This is certainly the weakest of these reads, but I still feel like Az was attacking Syrenz, not coaching.
So as long as Tom flips scum, it's all good; he's obviously the last scum.
Not sure if this points to Tom being town (and the team is just KJ/Chris or KJ/Wisp), or if I'm horribly wrong on one of the above and desperately need to reread...which may actually have a chance of happening soon, as I'm nearing the end of a large project at work...
inb4 Tom's role is "Standard Deck of 52 Playing Cards, Neutral 1-Shot Dayvig Survivor", which would throw everything off...
Tom, if you're town, we never lose to a team with KJ. If they leave me alive, I will fight tooth and nail to lunch him toMorrow. If they kill me, everyone will know I was telling the truth, and they'll lunch KJ. I'm much more worried about combinations involving Vez and/or Shadow.
I just iso'd your posts toDay and I feel like you're going out of your way to call me scum without outright saying so. Do you know that Tom's going to flip town?
Thread died; does that mean we're ready to move forward with lunching Tom, or do we need to discuss further? Anyone having second thoughts on Tom?
He played around with just double-tapping you (which I was also generally ok with, btw, but mentioned that it sounded like your role could be reasonably powerful, so if town it might be nice for it to go off. Also mentioned that you would probably be a hard sell for me to make if we wanted to maintain the facade that I was the vig since I had been town reading you so hard). We didn't discuss it much further until I claimed Vaimes' role and the thread was like "oh, two town vigs is totally possible" and then he started mentioning KCC as a possible target. He talked about resolving Chris because there was so much discussion on him at one point.
I wasn't pushing Tom as a target because a) I didn't know if Vaimes was telling the truth, and b) the math I was playing with made it seem highly likely to me that either Vaimes and Tom were both town, OR scum!Tom actually did gain his dayshot because of Az's death. I was suspicious that Vaimes wasn't even discussing the possibility, so I asked him outright. He said he thought we could get Tom lunched, but that KCC would be a lot harder to lunch because of thread opinion. He looked at wagons and hypothesized who might be scum trying to get Tom lunched (decided that KCC was more likely than Osie). He looked at 1.22 and 1.23 and said that if either Tom or Shadow were town, KCC was really really likely to be scum. I brought up Tom being a Grape counterwagon and he agreed that was another reason not to shoot Tom.
This is a good point. I'd push for a mass deck-nameclaim toDay except if scum also have a role that cares about deck names, I'd rather both of us were restricted in target options than that we both could target whomever.
It's really frustrating that he's doing so, actually, because if he's town, I'm going to feel really bad about going after him when he's got such a good read on me. Of course, the paranoia is telling me that he's "figured out" that I'm town because he's scum. (Another wifom moment: scum!me who has fooled town!Tom (especially Tom!) into thinking I'm town never tries to get him lunched, especially when he's essentially vanilla.)