I'd say part of the blame goes to Weissman, but another part of the blame goes to the overreacting fans, especially the diehard fan(atics) who were up in arms about Chandra and Nissa and the issue of gay representation. You can blame Weissman for that if you want, but I'll point out that he's also the one that gave us a gay Ral Zarek and the one who had Chandra tell Nissa she loved her, even if it was retconned the next book. People massively overreacted here based on something that was NEVER confirmed.
You're giving Weissman way too much credit. Gay Ral was mostly from Django Wexler, and the Chandra-Nissa pairing had enough build-up in previous stories that only a complete idiot would miss it and not deliver.
I stand corrected on Gay Ral, but it doesn't actually matter who is responsible for it, it was there. That goes against the accusations of lack of inclusion, which is the point.
As for Chandra-Nissa, link some stories that concretely establish them as an actual couple instead of really good friends who depend on each other. I've been reading the stories on the main site for years now and all I ever got from it was that the two of them had a pretty deep friendship, but that's all it ever was.
So you're saying as long as token representation is offered up, the inclusion quota is met and everyone should be happy?
Quite a lot of people in this forum have been complaining about tokenism from the right, that just checking off boxes doesn't make for compelling characters. And while that's obviously not a reason to not make queer characters (c'mon, duh), it sounds like your own expectations are just checking off boxes.
I don't think "lack of inclusion" is the point exactly in this specific case. It's the deliberate erasure of queer themes in a character. Ral being gay doesn't compensate for Chandra being portrayed as "going through a phase." It might not be something that particularly upsets you, most likely because it does not personally affect you in any way, but that doesn't mean someone else who is bothered by it is overreacting. It also doesn't mean that they're *not* overreacting depending on how they choose to express their feelings. But you're trying to invalidate the feelings themselves which is seriously uncool.
"What you’re seeing is Magic’s Franchise team testing and learning. Starting with Dominaria fiction we increased our investment and ambition in how we want to delivery great story to our fans. What if we were able to build a talent pool of authors that mirrored our talent pool of illustrators? What new delivery channels could we use to expand the reach of our fiction?
"Since Dominaria, you’ve seen us expand our author pool, enter into new licensed partnerships for comics and novels, and vary both the number of stories released and the length of those stories. We want to best understand the tone that works for our audience as well as the specific content that resonates most successfully in any given narrative expression (short form vs. comics vs. long form, for example). To do that we have to create opportunities to test and learn.
"With Wildered Quest, we released our first new-era ePub through Penguin Random House. It was more successful than anticipated and was well received. The blowback from Forsaken illuminated that we needed a better validation strategy not only for issues of representation, but for narrative content in general; so we made the hard call to delay Theros Beyond Death fiction until we could create a new vetting process. That unfortunately meant that we would miss our intended release window. We did our best to leverage our preview plans and marketing support to deliver the broad strokes of the story so people weren’t left completely in the lurch, but we know you are disappointed and we are too. We’re doing everything we can to ensure this will be a one-time cost for a smoother future.
"With Ikoria we will return to an ePub strategy, and we will also find the correct time and channel to release the Theros Beyond Death fiction. Maybe it will be part of an anthology, or direct to Audible, or as a graphic novel.
"Magic fandom deserves a publishing program as robust and enjoyable as the TCG, and Magic’s Franchise Team is committed to delivering exactly that. In the meantime, don’t be dismayed when you see us try new things. Don’t be shy in telling us when something doesn’t work (imagine a big smiley face emoji when I say that historically this hasn’t been an issue), but, more importantly, make sure you tell us what you love. That’s what we want to deliver."
-Jeremy Jarvis
So yeah they realized they been rushing out the story without enough editing and quality control. Positive is they do want to release the Theros 2 story at some point so while I'm saying this as excuse for it, glad we will see it hopefully in some form.
I'm quite satisfied with this response. Kudos to Jarvis.
Perhaps it's the Netflix show, the MMORPG, and all of the other resources that the brand is focusing on that's siphoning creative from the actual TCG. I've been playing MTG since pretty much the beginning and the lore was still fun back when it was vague and we had to fill in the gaps, yet through the decades WotC has ratcheted up the Vorthos component of MTG such that they have the capability for things such as an MMORPG and a Netflix series, so maybe this is just a natural progression. Who knows, we may get story lines and sets of cards that are based on the show or the video games if they are well received enough.
I actually wouldn't be shocked if they're planning to get real brand integrate-y with either the mmo or the netflix show, where the story now has to match up to whatever's going on in those. Maybe what we're seeing now is more clearing house to get some characters up and ready for whatever's written for those. Garruk is back, liliana is kinda redeemed, elspeth is back. Beefing up the cast a lil.
Also as a total aside, wild to watch tiro (of meletis) have gone from absolutely livid and irrationally angry about this set before it was previewed to raving about it in effortposts now the whole thing has dropped. There's a lesson there, but I'm not gonna be the one to figure out what it is.
The key word there is "irrational."
Using the show and the mmo as media for the overall narrative is probably a good move, as they're likely to be more accessible and thus expand the audience. I think one of the difficulties they've been having is trying to coordinate the stories with block releases a little too much. Of course that has to do with wanting to push sales of the new product, so it makes sense on paper that every set would have its story published at the same time, but I think there's a practical issue of getting reasonably high quality content written under those conditions. It would be better if they had several ongoing stories being printed that would eventually "catch up" and incorporate new settings while maintaining the audience's investment with the overall set of characters and settings. Comics and story articles might be sufficient to push new sets upon release.
Yet if the quality of the overall franchise declines, its popularity probably will eventually follow. Now that the game is bigger than any previous point, it is the time to expand on what makes it unique rather than to regress to an earlier stage when the game was small and new.
Wizards will probably cost cut on the story until product sales revenue slips notably. It's always this way with companies: they will seek to save money to make more profit, so they will cut in areas until the product quality gets bad enough for visible complaints and sales loss. I just don't think Wizards is at that point yet.
Alternatively, as Tiro and MoonKnightLite pointed out, much of the creative focus has moved to other properties, basically putting the card game on cruise control. As long as they print competitive cards and enticing thematic sets, Wizards can probably coast on a light narrative for a while. As I said, Wizards will probably focus stories on new sets, not returning ones, to avoid consecutive "synopsis only" sets.
And the problem with that is that returning sets is where story arcs can be developed. When the story only gets brought up with a new setting, people get fatigued with the same rehash of "oh no the world is on fire, but protagonist saves it!" It's important to get the audience invested in established characters and not just planeswalkers who are mostly written as color caricatures at this point.
I also believe that as consumers how we choose to respond can affect the tipping point where business decisions become unprofitable.
This has been discussed in another thread, but I think it is somewhat myopic for them to consider the investment in the story only through its direct impact on the bottom line. Although only Vorthoses place the lore at the center stage of their fandom, it's also in the background for most other players. Otherwise they would probably just play poker or something like that.
I would agree with you if Magic was a new card game with little or no tournament support. However, Magic is established now and has tournament support, with money and prizes on the line. I think the number of competitive or semi-competitive players dwarf the Vorthoses, so as long as Wizards creates cards that players believe will help them win games, the story (excluding basic world building and synopsis) can take a backseat. Modern Horizons and Core Sets had no story support, but they sold well if they had cards people wanted. (Modern Horizons appears to have sold to expectations, at least.)
I think the brand has a very serious crisis about how it's going to do its storytelling.
Either Wizards goes back to the pre-Weatherlight days of storytelling for their sets, or they will spend money on story for a reduced number of sets. Likely, Wizards will spend money for story on sets taking place on new planes like the upcoming Ikoria, and less or no money on story for most returning planes. For example, Zendikar's story about its people vs Eldrazi is concluded, so in the next Zendikar set, the cards tell the general narrative of "D&D adventuring in dangerous places with a token amount of Eldrazi remnants," and we get a story synopsis.
Yet if the quality of the overall franchise declines, its popularity probably will eventually follow. Now that the game is bigger than any previous point, it is the time to expand on what makes it unique rather than to regress to an earlier stage when the game was small and new.
The lack of a developed story for Theros is the most unfortunate part. One of the main benefits of a set that returns to an established plane is that it gives you an opportunity to deepen the storyline, provide character development, and build a coherent plot through larger story arcs. These were issues they had when they kept on going to a new setting every block. After the presumed end of the Bolas arc with Ravnica, Theros was the first plane where old plot threads were present to be picked up. But the most we have to show for that is a synopsis, so the narrative is pretty much in limbo. That's something that I feel is especially critical to resolve since Bolas was honestly a terrible villain and we need to move on to something better asap.
Given the arguably substandard storywriting of the War of the Spark novels and past novels and some of the web stories, we may be better off with synopses for the set narratives and let the fans fill the gaps with their headcanons.
I haven't even had my coffee yet today. What a super depressing comment.
Sorry to be Debbie Downer. I have been around Revised and the sets pre-Weatherlight were essentially like Theros Beyond Death in narrative. Most of the narrative was alluded to by the cards themselves and it left the gaps to the fan's imagination.
Wizards is not spending the money or political will to have a consistent and cohesive lore that Blizzard does with Warcraft/World of Warcraft. As a result, most of these narratives are not satisfying to Vorthos fans. A few web stories and Bryan Sanderson's story on Daveriel were received well, but for other narratives, the reaction has been bad.
It may be just cost cutting by Hasbro, who only care about the game itself and don't consider story to be super important. They probably think if all the Vorthos players left the game, it would have little financial impact on Magic sales.
I was being somewhat humorous. But it is kind of depressing how you make good points on an undesirable conclusion.
This has been discussed in another thread, but I think it is somewhat myopic for them to consider the investment in the story only through its direct impact on the bottom line. Although only Vorthoses place the lore at the center stage of their fandom, it's also in the background for most other players. Otherwise they would probably just play poker or something like that.
I guess that headcanons aren't always so bad. One of the things I enjoy about the lore of Fromsoftware games is the openness to interpretation. But the lore in those games is very purposefully crafted in that way, which I haven't seen MtG do successfully. I think the brand has a very serious crisis about how it's going to do its storytelling.
The lack of a developed story for Theros is the most unfortunate part. One of the main benefits of a set that returns to an established plane is that it gives you an opportunity to deepen the storyline, provide character development, and build a coherent plot through larger story arcs. These were issues they had when they kept on going to a new setting every block. After the presumed end of the Bolas arc with Ravnica, Theros was the first plane where old plot threads were present to be picked up. But the most we have to show for that is a synopsis, so the narrative is pretty much in limbo. That's something that I feel is especially critical to resolve since Bolas was honestly a terrible villain and we need to move on to something better asap.
Given the arguably substandard storywriting of the War of the Spark novels and past novels and some of the web stories, we may be better off with synopses for the set narratives and let the fans fill the gaps with their headcanons.
I haven't even had my coffee yet today. What a super depressing comment.
I actually think escape is a pretty good graveyard mechanic. It's just too bad it had to be on Theros in a single set taking up a massive amount of space not only in itself but with all the grave hate they printed with it. Enchantments deserve to be explored mechanically with the same level of innovation that artifacts have received across several blocks. I resent that artifacts get all the love.
A couple of times during spoiler season the team variously said (and I'm paraphrasing a little) "we f***ed up, wasted a bunch of time getting it wrong and then course corrected. The new set is gonna be, well, a set". (The Stygian mechanic, overly complicated cards that were caught late in the dev cycle and needed a quick fix).
They weren't wrong about that. This is 264 new cards alright. There are things to live about this set and there are some really weird things that seem to be the result of getting it wrong.
Building M:TG is a hard job, I'm glad it isn't mine. The R&D team put their heart and soul into it. This is going to be a fun set to play and there are cards I love at all rarities but there's those weird gaps.
Yeah, I think they deserve at least a little sympathy. Solidarity for the labor at MtG.
The lack of a developed story for Theros is the most unfortunate part. One of the main benefits of a set that returns to an established plane is that it gives you an opportunity to deepen the storyline, provide character development, and build a coherent plot through larger story arcs. These were issues they had when they kept on going to a new setting every block. After the presumed end of the Bolas arc with Ravnica, Theros was the first plane where old plot threads were present to be picked up. But the most we have to show for that is a synopsis, so the narrative is pretty much in limbo. That's something that I feel is especially critical to resolve since Bolas was honestly a terrible villain and we need to move on to something better asap.
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So you're saying as long as token representation is offered up, the inclusion quota is met and everyone should be happy?
Quite a lot of people in this forum have been complaining about tokenism from the right, that just checking off boxes doesn't make for compelling characters. And while that's obviously not a reason to not make queer characters (c'mon, duh), it sounds like your own expectations are just checking off boxes.
I don't think "lack of inclusion" is the point exactly in this specific case. It's the deliberate erasure of queer themes in a character. Ral being gay doesn't compensate for Chandra being portrayed as "going through a phase." It might not be something that particularly upsets you, most likely because it does not personally affect you in any way, but that doesn't mean someone else who is bothered by it is overreacting. It also doesn't mean that they're *not* overreacting depending on how they choose to express their feelings. But you're trying to invalidate the feelings themselves which is seriously uncool.
I'm quite satisfied with this response. Kudos to Jarvis.
The key word there is "irrational."
Using the show and the mmo as media for the overall narrative is probably a good move, as they're likely to be more accessible and thus expand the audience. I think one of the difficulties they've been having is trying to coordinate the stories with block releases a little too much. Of course that has to do with wanting to push sales of the new product, so it makes sense on paper that every set would have its story published at the same time, but I think there's a practical issue of getting reasonably high quality content written under those conditions. It would be better if they had several ongoing stories being printed that would eventually "catch up" and incorporate new settings while maintaining the audience's investment with the overall set of characters and settings. Comics and story articles might be sufficient to push new sets upon release.
And the problem with that is that returning sets is where story arcs can be developed. When the story only gets brought up with a new setting, people get fatigued with the same rehash of "oh no the world is on fire, but protagonist saves it!" It's important to get the audience invested in established characters and not just planeswalkers who are mostly written as color caricatures at this point.
I also believe that as consumers how we choose to respond can affect the tipping point where business decisions become unprofitable.
Yet if the quality of the overall franchise declines, its popularity probably will eventually follow. Now that the game is bigger than any previous point, it is the time to expand on what makes it unique rather than to regress to an earlier stage when the game was small and new.
I was being somewhat humorous. But it is kind of depressing how you make good points on an undesirable conclusion.
This has been discussed in another thread, but I think it is somewhat myopic for them to consider the investment in the story only through its direct impact on the bottom line. Although only Vorthoses place the lore at the center stage of their fandom, it's also in the background for most other players. Otherwise they would probably just play poker or something like that.
I guess that headcanons aren't always so bad. One of the things I enjoy about the lore of Fromsoftware games is the openness to interpretation. But the lore in those games is very purposefully crafted in that way, which I haven't seen MtG do successfully. I think the brand has a very serious crisis about how it's going to do its storytelling.
I haven't even had my coffee yet today. What a super depressing comment.
I actually think escape is a pretty good graveyard mechanic. It's just too bad it had to be on Theros in a single set taking up a massive amount of space not only in itself but with all the grave hate they printed with it. Enchantments deserve to be explored mechanically with the same level of innovation that artifacts have received across several blocks. I resent that artifacts get all the love.
Yeah, I think they deserve at least a little sympathy. Solidarity for the labor at MtG.
The lack of a developed story for Theros is the most unfortunate part. One of the main benefits of a set that returns to an established plane is that it gives you an opportunity to deepen the storyline, provide character development, and build a coherent plot through larger story arcs. These were issues they had when they kept on going to a new setting every block. After the presumed end of the Bolas arc with Ravnica, Theros was the first plane where old plot threads were present to be picked up. But the most we have to show for that is a synopsis, so the narrative is pretty much in limbo. That's something that I feel is especially critical to resolve since Bolas was honestly a terrible villain and we need to move on to something better asap.