Dude, I wish wizards had someone like you developing the sets. If any of your ideas were implemented it would have been a lot more fun to play this mechanic
Thank you, though it would appear WotC has their reasons for choosing a different path. Maybe next year.
I just find it very unfortunate that a lot of the in-tribe synergy cards didn't pull double duty for party and so ended up eating a lot of space in the set for minimal (!) benefit. The next installments are likely to incorporate some of the innovations you have in mind though I suspect it will always be inherently conservative.
Having a board state with four different creature types is not quite magical Christmas land but it's on the verge of that. Meh.
In the early days of spoiler season, I expected we'd get an answer to the question "Why play this mechanic if it expects you to keep four creatures of different tribes (and in some cases, colors) alive?" I don't think we ever got the reason. As you said, the mechanic was designed to be conservative, which is probably easier to balance, but I don't think for a mechanic that's more fun or worth building around.
I agree with you that they may expand on party down the line, even if it'll probably still be conservative.
I strongly feel that the biggest obstacle to card design is that Wizards designs sets for drafting. Because they have to design cards for drafting, certain ideas just don't work, don't scale, or require too many card slots. Your ideas would be great if they designed a non-drafting set or small supplement.
I agree with you, though I don't think pushing some of the scaling effects over to "if you have two or more creatures in your party" would make the set too challenging for draft. The mechanic really needed something to fill out the early/midgame. Thinking about building around party, my biggest reservation is that a lot of the more playable party cards still demand a full party for optimal use, do I just hold them while I'm waiting for another Cleric to cast? That's somewhat facetious.
I fully agree. Party being so completely binary means there is no early or even mid-game advantage to running a Party deck, but at the same time there’s no real late-game advantage either because having a full party doesn’t really ever pay off. It’s just a completely failed attempt and it’s baffling to me that it was allowed to proceed this way.
I don't know that it's completely failed, though I certainly don't see it as a success. I'm interested to see if players are able to build something fun and playable, and how.
They did this for Shadowmoor and Eventide, and it was so mentally taxing they lowered complexity in common forever.
Really? It was the cycle of Duos, the auras of the demigods, and the scarecrows at common that cared about how deep you were in a color pair, was that what was considered mentally taxing? Those sets also had cards that cared about their own colors, not unlike Zendikar Rising having cards that cared about their own tribe/tribal theme, so I'm guessing you meant WotC considered the cross-color interactions too complex?
I think Linvala really made a strong impression for me that the mechanic wasn't understood to need potent payoffs. There are some good full party payoff effects but I can't help but wonder what could have been with different mechanics.
Part of the issue could be addressed if they just adjusted the level of complexity they'd allow. Like the aforementioned Expedition Healer. If it were something like:
~ has lifelink as long as you control another Cleric, first strike as long as you control a Rogue, vigilance as long as you control a Warrior, protection from non creature spells as long as you control a Wizard. Then you'd get a little bit for Cleric redundancy but also jives with full party.
I think a part of it is the limitations of the way they do batching mechanics, your party isn't chosen/static and all the mechanics do is check if things fit basic criteria. What I mean is, the way party was designed doesn't allow for things like "When a creature joins your party" "When ~ dies, if it was a member of your party, " or "Members of your party have lifelink." They were limited to counting roles filled, but even that could have been explored in more dynamic ways than basic scaling with some bonuses for a full party.
Caring if your party has other members ("If your party has two or more creatures in it, ") or more interesting cross-class encouragement ("Target creature gets +1/+1 until end of turn. if it's a Warrior, it gains lifelink until end of turn." on a Cleric or "When ~ attacks, it gains flying until end of turn if you control a Wizard." on a Rogue) may have helped. As it stands, party is quite a binary mechanic, you either want full party to maximize everything or you don't want it at all. I respect that WotC was pushing for that (much the same way Domain was intended to be maximized and encouraged five color play and didn't bother with half steps), I just think it made for a less dynamic, less interesting mechanic.
I think the flavor was well-received, so hopefully they bring party back and expand on how it is explored.
Does anyone actually like party? I mean, to actually play with versus the general flavor concept. I feel like there's fairly broad consensus that it's the mechanic that sunk the set, which does not bode well for the D&D set if we have even more of this.
Maybe? I think there's some potential in a WUB build as that trio has some of the better party payoff cards and have a really flush history in the four tribes with really good potential candidates to expand the party with creatures that you both want to play, contribute to a bigger gameplan, and/or protect the party. I think it'd still be pretty casual, and I don't see it making a big splash outside of Limited and constructed formats more focused on fun than fine-tuned competition.
Am I overly invested in building around party? No, not really, but if I were, I'd probably run Tazri as a commander focusing only on WUB. I think the biggest hurdles party decks face are consistently getting a full party and keeping that party on the board. WUB likely has the best tools to assemble a party and keep it around, and they have a few party payoffs that are worth it. The red and green party payoffs just aren't worth it.
Anyone care to discuss all the implications for EDH?
Potential commanders I may brew:
Tazri - I don't love the party mechanic as executed, but I once tried a janky 5 color Allies deck and I think a more refined party deck that uses better creatures from other sets may be possible, though I'm in no rush to do that
Akiri - I think she's great, I've wanted to build a RW equipment deck and she is the inspiration I needed
Cards I may add to decks I already have: Angelheart Protector - I have a blink-focused deck that this may work in, though slots are pretty tight and the ability may not be relevant often enough in terms of indestructability in response to removal. Felidar Retreat - I have a GW Cats deck, this slots in fairly well and either fills out the board or boosts the army Luminarch Aspirant - I don't know if it fits in my Atraxa deck, but I do have other decks that may want a steady flow of free counters Nighthawk Scavenger - immediately in my vampire tribal deck, ditto the Nullpriest and Scion of the Storm Skyclave Shadowcat - easily slots into a variety of decks, but mostly aristrocrats and +1/+1 counter decks
Moraug - slots right into my Saskia legends/attacking matters deck, extra attacks are great for that deck Rockslide Sorcerer - another great effect for my NivMizz spellslinger deck, Kaza also slots in easily (60% or so of the creatures in the deck are Wizards) Valakut Exploration - fits in my Intet deck, though it may be too expensive to justify purchasing since it's largely redundant Ancient Greenwarden and Ashaya - could be in consideration for my land creatures deck Roiling Regrowth - good card for almost any deck with green, it's probably the card I'll get in larger numbers
Nahiri - if I build around Akiri, I can see Nahiri being in the list Zagras - another great addition to my Edgar deck, will frequently be quite inexpensive Forsaken Monument - goes right in my Baraldrazi counters/Eldrazi deck Lithoform Engine - I really like it, and want to use it, just not sure where yet because I probably won't be able to buy more than one Relic Amulet and Vial - Amulet may go with NivMizz (it's already heavy on burn, so the Amulet is redundant), Vial will definitely go in Teysa (it's everything the deck wants more of) Skyclave Relic - I anticipate it being a pricy card, I'll likely only get enough to go in the decks that both need the mana ramp as well as the extra artifacts
That's honestly about it. I'm really unimpressed with the overall quality of cards. There are ideas here that I like, but the execution was some combination of too costly/too many hoops/too underpowered and ultimately that dulls my excitement for the set. Even the other legends are pretty meh for me, they're alright but are more likely to slot into the 99 elsewhere than being things I build around.
The MDFCs are nonstarters for me, I just hate playing with them and never will. Landfall isn't really my bag, but I think folks who like it got some great new tools.
I think Commander players should be relatively happy, particularly casual players, the set isn't a total loss. I'm fairly happy that most of what I'm likely to pick up as singles are commons and uncommons, or they're by and large rares and mythics that are unlikely to be popular enough to drive prices up. It's a good set for my budget.
Thank you, though it would appear WotC has their reasons for choosing a different path. Maybe next year.
In the early days of spoiler season, I expected we'd get an answer to the question "Why play this mechanic if it expects you to keep four creatures of different tribes (and in some cases, colors) alive?" I don't think we ever got the reason. As you said, the mechanic was designed to be conservative, which is probably easier to balance, but I don't think for a mechanic that's more fun or worth building around.
I agree with you that they may expand on party down the line, even if it'll probably still be conservative.
I agree with you, though I don't think pushing some of the scaling effects over to "if you have two or more creatures in your party" would make the set too challenging for draft. The mechanic really needed something to fill out the early/midgame. Thinking about building around party, my biggest reservation is that a lot of the more playable party cards still demand a full party for optimal use, do I just hold them while I'm waiting for another Cleric to cast? That's somewhat facetious.
I don't know that it's completely failed, though I certainly don't see it as a success. I'm interested to see if players are able to build something fun and playable, and how.
Really? It was the cycle of Duos, the auras of the demigods, and the scarecrows at common that cared about how deep you were in a color pair, was that what was considered mentally taxing? Those sets also had cards that cared about their own colors, not unlike Zendikar Rising having cards that cared about their own tribe/tribal theme, so I'm guessing you meant WotC considered the cross-color interactions too complex?
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
I think a part of it is the limitations of the way they do batching mechanics, your party isn't chosen/static and all the mechanics do is check if things fit basic criteria. What I mean is, the way party was designed doesn't allow for things like "When a creature joins your party" "When ~ dies, if it was a member of your party, " or "Members of your party have lifelink." They were limited to counting roles filled, but even that could have been explored in more dynamic ways than basic scaling with some bonuses for a full party.
Caring if your party has other members ("If your party has two or more creatures in it, ") or more interesting cross-class encouragement ("Target creature gets +1/+1 until end of turn. if it's a Warrior, it gains lifelink until end of turn." on a Cleric or "When ~ attacks, it gains flying until end of turn if you control a Wizard." on a Rogue) may have helped. As it stands, party is quite a binary mechanic, you either want full party to maximize everything or you don't want it at all. I respect that WotC was pushing for that (much the same way Domain was intended to be maximized and encouraged five color play and didn't bother with half steps), I just think it made for a less dynamic, less interesting mechanic.
I think the flavor was well-received, so hopefully they bring party back and expand on how it is explored.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
Maybe? I think there's some potential in a WUB build as that trio has some of the better party payoff cards and have a really flush history in the four tribes with really good potential candidates to expand the party with creatures that you both want to play, contribute to a bigger gameplan, and/or protect the party. I think it'd still be pretty casual, and I don't see it making a big splash outside of Limited and constructed formats more focused on fun than fine-tuned competition.
The colors struggle a bit for Warriors that measure up, but a handful may have potential.
Mindblade Render
Mardu Strike Leader
Species Specialist
God-Eternal Oketra
Butcher of Malakir
Solemn Recruit
Once you get into the other tribes, though, things get wonderful. Wizards has Commander stalwarts like Sen Triplets, Azami, Teferi, Venser, Snapcaster. Not to mention more workhorse cards like Exclusion Mage, Vedalken AEthermage, Glen Elendra Archmage, Wizard's Retort, Archaeomancer, Deadeye Navigator. Clerics has Ravos, Ayli, new Mangara, Bishop of Rebirth, Selfless Spirit, Containment Priest. Rogues get Sygg, Oona, Invisible Stalker, Rankle, True-Name Nemesis, Zulaport Cutthroat, Notorious Throng, Gwafa Hazid, Brazen Borrower. These three tribes are deep in these colors, so there's a lot to pick from depending on your playstyle, deck concept, and meta.
Am I overly invested in building around party? No, not really, but if I were, I'd probably run Tazri as a commander focusing only on WUB. I think the biggest hurdles party decks face are consistently getting a full party and keeping that party on the board. WUB likely has the best tools to assemble a party and keep it around, and they have a few party payoffs that are worth it. The red and green party payoffs just aren't worth it.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
Potential commanders I may brew:
Tazri - I don't love the party mechanic as executed, but I once tried a janky 5 color Allies deck and I think a more refined party deck that uses better creatures from other sets may be possible, though I'm in no rush to do that
Akiri - I think she's great, I've wanted to build a RW equipment deck and she is the inspiration I needed
Cards I may add to decks I already have:
Angelheart Protector - I have a blink-focused deck that this may work in, though slots are pretty tight and the ability may not be relevant often enough in terms of indestructability in response to removal.
Felidar Retreat - I have a GW Cats deck, this slots in fairly well and either fills out the board or boosts the army
Luminarch Aspirant - I don't know if it fits in my Atraxa deck, but I do have other decks that may want a steady flow of free counters
Nighthawk Scavenger - immediately in my vampire tribal deck, ditto the Nullpriest and Scion of the Storm
Skyclave Shadowcat - easily slots into a variety of decks, but mostly aristrocrats and +1/+1 counter decks
Moraug - slots right into my Saskia legends/attacking matters deck, extra attacks are great for that deck
Rockslide Sorcerer - another great effect for my NivMizz spellslinger deck, Kaza also slots in easily (60% or so of the creatures in the deck are Wizards)
Valakut Exploration - fits in my Intet deck, though it may be too expensive to justify purchasing since it's largely redundant
Ancient Greenwarden and Ashaya - could be in consideration for my land creatures deck
Roiling Regrowth - good card for almost any deck with green, it's probably the card I'll get in larger numbers
Nahiri - if I build around Akiri, I can see Nahiri being in the list
Zagras - another great addition to my Edgar deck, will frequently be quite inexpensive
Forsaken Monument - goes right in my Baraldrazi counters/Eldrazi deck
Lithoform Engine - I really like it, and want to use it, just not sure where yet because I probably won't be able to buy more than one
Relic Amulet and Vial - Amulet may go with NivMizz (it's already heavy on burn, so the Amulet is redundant), Vial will definitely go in Teysa (it's everything the deck wants more of)
Skyclave Relic - I anticipate it being a pricy card, I'll likely only get enough to go in the decks that both need the mana ramp as well as the extra artifacts
That's honestly about it. I'm really unimpressed with the overall quality of cards. There are ideas here that I like, but the execution was some combination of too costly/too many hoops/too underpowered and ultimately that dulls my excitement for the set. Even the other legends are pretty meh for me, they're alright but are more likely to slot into the 99 elsewhere than being things I build around.
I absolutely adore the concept they have for party, but I can't say they executed it well. Archpriest of Iona, Emeria Captain, Journey to Oblivion, Squad Commander, Nimble Trapfinder, Skyclave Plunder, Coveted Prize, Deadly Alliance, Malakir Blood-Priest, Thwart the Grave, Linvala, Spoils of Adventure, and Base Camp could have potential if party decks manage to get off the ground. Not all of them are stellar, but they all feel like they'd be pretty good with full party. The rest of the party cards largely seem bad, especially given the investment needed.
The MDFCs are nonstarters for me, I just hate playing with them and never will. Landfall isn't really my bag, but I think folks who like it got some great new tools.
I think Commander players should be relatively happy, particularly casual players, the set isn't a total loss. I'm fairly happy that most of what I'm likely to pick up as singles are commons and uncommons, or they're by and large rares and mythics that are unlikely to be popular enough to drive prices up. It's a good set for my budget.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains