Hello all, this is my first attempt to ever make a thread, and my question isn't even that unique
We all know that cards like sol ring, Library of Alexandria, and the name sake division between power and un-powered cube lists, "the power 9", are generally excluded from the un-powered cuber lists. But how damaging are they to the un-powered environment? Is there a true ceiling? My question is: What are truly considered powered cards? what cards are so far above that they should only be included in one's cube so long as each other piece of "powered" card is there to balance it out?
I've seen some debate in forums (here on MTGSalvation and on other sites) over cards like grim monolith, True-name nemesis, and just a few choice others still see exclusion from lists, but personally I feel like those exclusions are based on a group's chemistry rather than for the health of a cube. I also see "I wouldn't add sol ring in just by itself in an un-powered cube", and I could say that I agree with that, but I wonder how many other high tiered cards would be required to run in your cube so that it became okay? I've seen some people mention that there will always be a top tier to an individual cube, and that any exclusion based on a perceived power level isn't the correct reason to ban card X or Y (If you remove the top tier of a pyramid, there is a new top tier to that pyramid) so why ban any if it doesn't technically matter? My group has slowly warped itself around that thought, and at this point price is the only thing "banning" certain cards from my list. (Sure, I know proxies are a thing, but I'm vain and I want that top shelf booze.)
It was even recently requested that I add in mana crypt and mana vault, but I'm worried that this falls into the "whoops- he got the rock" camp of problems. But how bad is this problem? Is there a number of cards that can be added in to balance out these cards, in a way that powered cubes do by giving everyone that chance to have fast mana, or is it a trap to think mana rocks faster than grim monolith are a good idea? My list already includes some questionable cards, such as Channel, Mind Twist, and Tinker, and my list has been called "pretty much powered" in it's current state. I also know that ultimately, its to each its own about how an individual cube runs and how it's group plays it, but is there a true definitely list of "powered cube only" cards?
There really isn't. Outside of the actual power (well, 8 of them at least) each individual unpowered playgroup has to decide where they draw that line at.
Sol Ring is amazing, don't get me wrong, but if there are enough other rocks, then I think sol ring is okay. We are talking about 1 card in the entire cube, which you may not even see in a given draft, which goes into a players deck, and is 1 card of 40 that they may not even see. Sol ring on turn 1 is great, sol ring on turn 5 is good.
As long as there is other ramp options to be had, I think the ring is okay.
As for cards that only belong in "powered cubes," I think that is up to each cube designer. I don't like mind twist, because it makes for non-games (The only answer is to have counter magic), whereas a turn 2 channel (this is generally the fastest you can channel in my cube) into a giant creature can be met with swords to plowshares, go for the throat, path to exile, even disenchant and counterspell, so the thing is still busted if it happens, but it is also possible to answer. I feel the same way about Tinker I do with channel.
I have never played Library of Alexandria in my cube before, but the more busted lands you play, the more you have to have strip mine, wasteland, ghost quarter, etc. to help balance it out.
I will say I don't run storm payoff cards like grapeshot and tendrils of agony, but this is more because storm is less viable in an unpowered cube.
You just need to keep things balanced, and provide answers to your players who don't end up with busted cards.
I guess that makes the most sense. I had noticed that there seemed to be several lines drawn in the sand involving this issue, so I was kind of at a loss for what actually qualified as "too much", and I guess that knowing what your group is willing/wanting to put up with is kind of where that line should be at. I agree with the mind twist comment tho, that it does create non game situations, especially when compared to things like channel and tinker which have more than enough answers to balance out their impact.
The biggest problem I see with cards such as Sol Ring in unpowered is that it is such a "no decision"-card.
When you see Sol Ring you take Sol Ring. No other card can come close to its power level so it is simply an autopick card that also has the ability to grant you autowins.
So you simply need to get lucky to pick one and then lucky to draw one. But you will simply get a bunch of games where none of the players had an influence on the outcome but one lucky card decided everything.
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Sol Ring is amazing, don't get me wrong, but if there are enough other rocks, then I think sol ring is okay. We are talking about 1 card in the entire cube, which you may not even see in a given draft, which goes into a players deck, and is 1 card of 40 that they may not even see. Sol ring on turn 1 is great, sol ring on turn 5 is good.
If you don't run moxen for power reasons, I can't imagine running Sol Ring, which is just better than the moxen. I also wouldn't run mana crypt, as in a fair number of decks it's just a better sol ring. Especially where the only cards that can reasonably compete with crypt and sol ring are power, so if those are out, sol ring and crypt are just miles away the best card in the cube.
Library should be out for similar reasons, as without power (and sol ring and crypt), it will be substantially better than any other card in the cube.
IMO, anything else is fair game. Mind twist has been in my cube since day 1 and never felt broken (a lot of what makes it broken is moxen and sol ring/crypt), tinker and channel are both fragile enough and all-in enough that they don't feel unfair.
Now, all this is if you want a more balanced power environment. If your group WANTS to try sol ring, crypt, library, etc, go for it! If it's unfun they'll let you know.
Sol Ring is amazing, don't get me wrong, but if there are enough other rocks, then I think sol ring is okay. We are talking about 1 card in the entire cube, which you may not even see in a given draft, which goes into a players deck, and is 1 card of 40 that they may not even see. Sol ring on turn 1 is great, sol ring on turn 5 is good.
As long as there is other ramp options to be had, I think the ring is okay.
As for cards that only belong in "powered cubes," I think that is up to each cube designer. I don't like mind twist, because it makes for non-games (The only answer is to have counter magic), whereas a turn 2 channel (this is generally the fastest you can channel in my cube) into a giant creature can be met with swords to plowshares, go for the throat, path to exile, even disenchant and counterspell, so the thing is still busted if it happens, but it is also possible to answer. I feel the same way about Tinker I do with channel.
I have never played Library of Alexandria in my cube before, but the more busted lands you play, the more you have to have strip mine, wasteland, ghost quarter, etc. to help balance it out.
I will say I don't run storm payoff cards like grapeshot and tendrils of agony, but this is more because storm is less viable in an unpowered cube.
You don’t like mind twist cause it makes for non games? Doesn’t soo ring make for non games too? Neither of them do anything by themselves. Twist needs fast mana to make a non game. Soo ring has to just begin play turns 1 or 2. I think soo ring is far too degenerate to play in an unpowered cube. It’s the best card in any go in cube.
You just need to keep things balanced, and provide answers to your players who don't end up with busted cards.
Balanced is my ultimate goal, which is kind of why I was wanting to find that line between cards that go far and above the cards that sit mostly eye to eye with each other. My group has been interested in finding more powerful plays tho, which is why ive been ramping up (literally) on certain cards like mana rocks or higher tiered spells.
Personally I only think sol ring creates non games if a player doesnt have adequate ways of dealing with what gets cast ahead of schedule/the rock itself. Is Sol Ring amd mind twist on a different tier than the rest of typical cube cards? What else would sit at their same level of power?
I guess what I want is a balanced envirnoment with high level cards in the mix, like if my group wants sol ring and mana crypt, what other cards would it take to balance out the environment, and if it cant be without going full powered, what needs to be avoided if not including these rocks? Does mind twist become viable if rocks arent there?
Not sure if you have figured it out, but before my cube was powered we ran mind twist and TNN, but didnt run any of the p9, Library, mana crypt, mana vault. It worked pretty well for us. While there is always a best card in cube, without running power I didnt want the best cube card to be a colorless spell. Also mind twist is still really strong, But for the most part it was kept in check (at least a little bit) with the fact it would take at least a couple of land drops into a mana rock or 2 before it was worth playing. At that point control decks can have counter magic and aggro decks can be pressuring your life total.
FWIW, this is the tier list I came up with over many years of Cubing:
GOD Tier
1. Black Lotus
2. Sol Ring
3. Ancestral Recall
4. Time Walk
5. Mox Sapphire/Pearl/Jet/Ruby/Emerald
6. Mana Crypt
7. Library of Alexandria
8. Mind Twist
9. Mana Drain
The cards on this list are not only brutally powerful, but their power is not deck dependent. They will consistently win games regardless of matchup or difference in skill level, because they are pretty much impossible to defend against. For balance reasons you should probably run either all or none of them, my cube has none.
Combo
1. Time Vault
This is the one combo card that I think is far too good for an unpowered list.
Extreme power/variance
1. Channel
2. Show and Tell
3. Eureka
4. Bribery
5. Jace, Memory Adept
These cards I would also exclude from a non-powered list, the combination of power and variance is more suited for powered.
Besides these (and UN-cards/Conspiracies which I didn't include because of my lack of experience with them), I think pretty much anything is fair game given appropriate balance in the Cube.
For me the greatest offender is Sol Ring. It just warps it’s controller into the mid lte game while the other is in the early game. For that I do not have Sol Ring and Mana Crypt.
Mana Vault and Grim Monolith are fair. They provide a risky one turn boost but after that it nets negative mana.
Mind Twist, while powerful, is not an auto game win. Better than Hymn only at 4 mana, and selective discard is even better at times. There are feel bad games where your hand is stripped, But I have seen games where players recover and win from that.
I will be testing back Channel and Mana Drain. I think it will be too swingy but I will see if my group enjoys it. They will join Tinker, Natural Order, Sneak Attack, Tooth and Nail in the cheaty archtype.
1. Channel
2. Show and Tell
3. Eureka
4. Bribery
5. Jace, Memory Adept
These cards I would also exclude from a non-powered list, the combination of power and variance is more suited for powered.
Besides these (and UN-cards/Conspiracies which I didn't include because of my lack of experience with them), I think pretty much anything is fair game given appropriate balance in the Cube.
I play all of these (except jace, who got cut cause he was unbeatable 20% of the time and garbage 80% of the time, which does not a good cube card make), and none of them feel remotely broken. Show and Tell is actually getting cut this week because it's a trap card, and it's basically never been good. The other 3 are all fun cards with lots of answers in my experience.
I think it's hard to come up with a list because cards get better or worse in context. Once you get past the tier 0 cards like Recall and Lotus, it becomes a lot trickier. The example I think of is Treachery. This card can be super busted, especially in more creature-centric unpowered lists. It's a card that varies according to context. For me, it's more about the environment I want to create, not just power level. When you are powered, a good number of cube slots are filled by the tier 0s and they kind of provide an anchor point. In unpowered, it's less straightforward. I think finding a few anchor cards is helpful. You can use them as a guide.
Hello all, this is my first attempt to ever make a thread, and my question isn't even that unique
We all know that cards like sol ring, Library of Alexandria, and the name sake division between power and un-powered cube lists, "the power 9", are generally excluded from the un-powered cuber lists. But how damaging are they to the un-powered environment? Is there a true ceiling? My question is: What are truly considered powered cards? what cards are so far above that they should only be included in one's cube so long as each other piece of "powered" card is there to balance it out?
I've seen some debate in forums (here on MTGSalvation and on other sites) over cards like grim monolith, True-name nemesis, and just a few choice others still see exclusion from lists, but personally I feel like those exclusions are based on a group's chemistry rather than for the health of a cube. I also see "I wouldn't add sol ring in just by itself in an un-powered cube", and I could say that I agree with that, but I wonder how many other high tiered cards would be required to run in your cube so that it became okay? I've seen some people mention that there will always be a top tier to an individual cube, and that any exclusion based on a perceived power level isn't the correct reason to ban card X or Y (If you remove the top tier of a pyramid, there is a new top tier to that pyramid) so why ban any if it doesn't technically matter? My group has slowly warped itself around that thought, and at this point price is the only thing "banning" certain cards from my list. (Sure, I know proxies are a thing, but I'm vain and I want that top shelf booze.)
It was even recently requested that I add in mana crypt and mana vault, but I'm worried that this falls into the "whoops- he got the rock" camp of problems. But how bad is this problem? Is there a number of cards that can be added in to balance out these cards, in a way that powered cubes do by giving everyone that chance to have fast mana, or is it a trap to think mana rocks faster than grim monolith are a good idea? My list already includes some questionable cards, such as Channel, Mind Twist, and Tinker, and my list has been called "pretty much powered" in it's current state. I also know that ultimately, its to each its own about how an individual cube runs and how it's group plays it, but is there a true definitely list of "powered cube only" cards?
1.) It's far better to worry about the P1P1's that always dominate the game than it is to worry about the bottom X% of your cube that are dead cards. Dead cards only waste 1/360th of the cube, whereas an OP card wastes everything below its power level. Through a process of natural selection, most of the remaining Magic players are the ones that hold a Laissez-Faire view of game balance where nothing ever needs to be banned and fun is subjective. It's not possible to convince these people that anything ever needs to be banned and as such they propagate this false idea that if you ban one card you'll be forcibly sucked down a slippery slope that involves banning everything that's better than Grizzly Bears. It's utter nonsense, just get rid of problem cards. It's much better that way, and it's far easier than trying to introduce competing cancers into the equation to try and balance things out.
2.) IMO the power 9 isn't even really as powerful as other cards. Big mana is only as good as what you can cast with it. I think Tinker + Darksteel Colossus would be far more destructive to a Pauper-esque environment than a zero mana Dark Ritual would be, or a mox. I mean, what really is the difference between a mox and Llanowar Elves?
I'd rather play against Black Lotus than Mind Twist, that's for sure.
We all know that cards like sol ring, Library of Alexandria, and the name sake division between power and un-powered cube lists, "the power 9", are generally excluded from the un-powered cuber lists. But how damaging are they to the un-powered environment? Is there a true ceiling? My question is: What are truly considered powered cards? what cards are so far above that they should only be included in one's cube so long as each other piece of "powered" card is there to balance it out?
I've seen some debate in forums (here on MTGSalvation and on other sites) over cards like grim monolith, True-name nemesis, and just a few choice others still see exclusion from lists, but personally I feel like those exclusions are based on a group's chemistry rather than for the health of a cube. I also see "I wouldn't add sol ring in just by itself in an un-powered cube", and I could say that I agree with that, but I wonder how many other high tiered cards would be required to run in your cube so that it became okay? I've seen some people mention that there will always be a top tier to an individual cube, and that any exclusion based on a perceived power level isn't the correct reason to ban card X or Y (If you remove the top tier of a pyramid, there is a new top tier to that pyramid) so why ban any if it doesn't technically matter? My group has slowly warped itself around that thought, and at this point price is the only thing "banning" certain cards from my list. (Sure, I know proxies are a thing, but I'm vain and I want that top shelf booze.)
It was even recently requested that I add in mana crypt and mana vault, but I'm worried that this falls into the "whoops- he got the rock" camp of problems. But how bad is this problem? Is there a number of cards that can be added in to balance out these cards, in a way that powered cubes do by giving everyone that chance to have fast mana, or is it a trap to think mana rocks faster than grim monolith are a good idea? My list already includes some questionable cards, such as Channel, Mind Twist, and Tinker, and my list has been called "pretty much powered" in it's current state. I also know that ultimately, its to each its own about how an individual cube runs and how it's group plays it, but is there a true definitely list of "powered cube only" cards?
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As long as there is other ramp options to be had, I think the ring is okay.
As for cards that only belong in "powered cubes," I think that is up to each cube designer. I don't like mind twist, because it makes for non-games (The only answer is to have counter magic), whereas a turn 2 channel (this is generally the fastest you can channel in my cube) into a giant creature can be met with swords to plowshares, go for the throat, path to exile, even disenchant and counterspell, so the thing is still busted if it happens, but it is also possible to answer. I feel the same way about Tinker I do with channel.
I have never played Library of Alexandria in my cube before, but the more busted lands you play, the more you have to have strip mine, wasteland, ghost quarter, etc. to help balance it out.
I will say I don't run storm payoff cards like grapeshot and tendrils of agony, but this is more because storm is less viable in an unpowered cube.
You just need to keep things balanced, and provide answers to your players who don't end up with busted cards.
When you see Sol Ring you take Sol Ring. No other card can come close to its power level so it is simply an autopick card that also has the ability to grant you autowins.
So you simply need to get lucky to pick one and then lucky to draw one. But you will simply get a bunch of games where none of the players had an influence on the outcome but one lucky card decided everything.
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Rules Advisor
If you don't run moxen for power reasons, I can't imagine running Sol Ring, which is just better than the moxen. I also wouldn't run mana crypt, as in a fair number of decks it's just a better sol ring. Especially where the only cards that can reasonably compete with crypt and sol ring are power, so if those are out, sol ring and crypt are just miles away the best card in the cube.
Library should be out for similar reasons, as without power (and sol ring and crypt), it will be substantially better than any other card in the cube.
IMO, anything else is fair game. Mind twist has been in my cube since day 1 and never felt broken (a lot of what makes it broken is moxen and sol ring/crypt), tinker and channel are both fragile enough and all-in enough that they don't feel unfair.
Now, all this is if you want a more balanced power environment. If your group WANTS to try sol ring, crypt, library, etc, go for it! If it's unfun they'll let you know.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Personally I only think sol ring creates non games if a player doesnt have adequate ways of dealing with what gets cast ahead of schedule/the rock itself. Is Sol Ring amd mind twist on a different tier than the rest of typical cube cards? What else would sit at their same level of power?
http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/63569
GOD Tier
1. Black Lotus
2. Sol Ring
3. Ancestral Recall
4. Time Walk
5. Mox Sapphire/Pearl/Jet/Ruby/Emerald
6. Mana Crypt
7. Library of Alexandria
8. Mind Twist
9. Mana Drain
The cards on this list are not only brutally powerful, but their power is not deck dependent. They will consistently win games regardless of matchup or difference in skill level, because they are pretty much impossible to defend against. For balance reasons you should probably run either all or none of them, my cube has none.
Combo
1. Time Vault
This is the one combo card that I think is far too good for an unpowered list.
Extreme power/variance
1. Channel
2. Show and Tell
3. Eureka
4. Bribery
5. Jace, Memory Adept
These cards I would also exclude from a non-powered list, the combination of power and variance is more suited for powered.
Besides these (and UN-cards/Conspiracies which I didn't include because of my lack of experience with them), I think pretty much anything is fair game given appropriate balance in the Cube.
Mana Vault and Grim Monolith are fair. They provide a risky one turn boost but after that it nets negative mana.
Mind Twist, while powerful, is not an auto game win. Better than Hymn only at 4 mana, and selective discard is even better at times. There are feel bad games where your hand is stripped, But I have seen games where players recover and win from that.
I will be testing back Channel and Mana Drain. I think it will be too swingy but I will see if my group enjoys it. They will join Tinker, Natural Order, Sneak Attack, Tooth and Nail in the cheaty archtype.
I play all of these (except jace, who got cut cause he was unbeatable 20% of the time and garbage 80% of the time, which does not a good cube card make), and none of them feel remotely broken. Show and Tell is actually getting cut this week because it's a trap card, and it's basically never been good. The other 3 are all fun cards with lots of answers in my experience.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
1.) It's far better to worry about the P1P1's that always dominate the game than it is to worry about the bottom X% of your cube that are dead cards. Dead cards only waste 1/360th of the cube, whereas an OP card wastes everything below its power level. Through a process of natural selection, most of the remaining Magic players are the ones that hold a Laissez-Faire view of game balance where nothing ever needs to be banned and fun is subjective. It's not possible to convince these people that anything ever needs to be banned and as such they propagate this false idea that if you ban one card you'll be forcibly sucked down a slippery slope that involves banning everything that's better than Grizzly Bears. It's utter nonsense, just get rid of problem cards. It's much better that way, and it's far easier than trying to introduce competing cancers into the equation to try and balance things out.
2.) IMO the power 9 isn't even really as powerful as other cards. Big mana is only as good as what you can cast with it. I think Tinker + Darksteel Colossus would be far more destructive to a Pauper-esque environment than a zero mana Dark Ritual would be, or a mox. I mean, what really is the difference between a mox and Llanowar Elves?
I'd rather play against Black Lotus than Mind Twist, that's for sure.
Ignoring what Magic players say isn't the answer, it's listening to what they have to say and doing the exact opposite that's correct.