Hello again,
The reason most apparent was that a lot of these decks did not have an early game at all
I believe your deck falls under the 'no early game' status that many fell into. For your deck ... I see some deck manipulation, a few artifacts, and maybe a Grey Ogre as your first 3~4 turns.
Though I do not believe it would change the judging, if you would like to enlighten me on what early game your deck has, I'd be most interested to know. It will certainly help me judge these decks, if I missed something.
I must admit, your deck fell border-line top 8 for me and got eked out by Post Affinity due to that deck looking more tightly tuned. I really liked your Dralnu's Pet usage to dump the high CC cards. Unfortunately that card costs UUB3 to do it.
I don't know that it is or is not an excuse, but please be aware we had 24 hours to whittle-down the top 8 based on a quick-look, and may have missed some interactions the deck designer assumed to be obvious. If it wasn't described or noted in the original deck submission, I know I may have missed it. Note, this is just my perspective.
Your deck doesn't really need the card of the week. AlloftheBringersalready can come into play with WURGB, without Fist of Suns. Fist of Suns only helps get the Mycosynth Lattice, which only reduces the cost by 1, or Progenitus, which seems like a 'win more' card when you're dropping Bringers. Again, strictly my perspective and not necessarily representative of all the other judges.
Note I'm not going to actively goldfish the decks and this is just my opinion looking at the decks and estimating what kind of game they might have. I generally explain my opinions but am open to providing more clarification. Also I tended to judge creativity pretty harshly as well as interaction.
Creativity/Originality: 0 to 5 points
3.5 The druid setup and the torrent of fire bring a smidge of originality to the deck.
Effectiveness/Card adherence: 0 to 5 points
Plays the big ol expensive Myojins from your hand for divinity counters
on the cheap. Pretty good usage 3.5 Synergy/Tuning: 0 to 5 points
Pretty effective, the various druids particularly the Orochi Leaf Caller setup Fist of the Suns Myojin's pretty well. 4
Power/Capacity to win: 0 to 5 points
I think this deck has a good capacity to win due to the acceleration and card draw. 4
Interaction/Protection: 0 to 5 points
Has basically no removal other than Torrent of Fire or some of the Myojin abilities. This could be a problem for a lot of decks. Board sweepers also completely wreck the deck. 2.5
Format/Thematic: up to 2 points bonus (can't go over 25)
Tribal 1
Creativity/Originality: 0 to 5 points
This deck is definitely an original attempt. 4.5
Effectiveness/Card adherence: 0 to 5 points
The particular combo is good but the fist is basically useless without the golem. Tutors alleviate this somewhat. 3
Synergy/Tuning: 0 to 5 points
The deck seems pretty well tuned with lots of search and recovery effects and exploitation of artifact come into play effects beyond even the combo. 3.5
Power/Capacity to win: 0 to 5 points
Here we have a slight problem. The decks only feasible way to win is to play beacon of tomorrow's repeatedly with infinite mana and hit with the escape artist, both one of's. If you have infinite mana you should have more ways to win than this, especially since there's no guarantee you'll draw the beacon again. 2
Interaction/Protection: 0 to 5 points
Any remove from game removal completely wrecks the deck especially since key cards are present in low numbers. Something to either give your artifacts shroud or counters to protect them probably would have been a good idea. 1.5
Format/Thematic: up to 2 points bonus (can't go over 25)
nope Total: 14.5
Creativity/Originality: 0 to 5 points
Seems like the obvious thing to do hear, not particularly original although insurrection is a nice addition. 2
Effectiveness/Card adherence: 0 to 5 points
No complaints here, lot's of big bomby spells cheapened by the fist. 4
Synergy/Tuning: 0 to 5 points
Lots of fixing and tutors to keep the deck running smoothly 3.5
Power/Capacity to win: 0 to 5 points
Should fairly easily be able to get a fist out and get at least one big spell off I'd think. 4
Interaction/Protection: 0 to 5 points
All of these decks are going to be a smidge on the slow side so there really needs to be some removal or some way to protect your stuff. 1.5
Format/Thematic: up to 2 points bonus (can't go over 25)
Creativity/Originality: 0 to 5 points
A bit original although still pretty similar to the other decks. The Panglacial Wurm setup does get you some kudos though. 3
Effectiveness/Card adherence: 0 to 5 points
Seems to be pretty efficient, especially with the sideboard. 4
Synergy/Tuning: 0 to 5 points
Lifeline is just brutal with all these expensive creatures, particularly the primus. Insures those big creatures you play through the Fist stick around. 4
Power/Capacity to win: 0 to 5 points
Seems pretty able to win me, effective if not spectacular. 4
Interaction/Protection: 0 to 5 points
Has a good amount of removal but all of the removal pretty much requires fist of the suns to be online. Reusing Eternal witness via lifeline and a sac effect like the altar does alleviate the effects of an opponent's removal though. Duplicant along with tinker and the lifeline, seems like pretty effective removal. 4
Format/Thematic: up to 2 points bonus (can't go over 25)
Creativity/Originality: 0 to 5 points
I like the use of the Reliquary and Tron to provide a different flavor to the deck 3.5
Effectiveness/Card adherence: 0 to 5 points
Lots of big spells and should be able to find them pretty quickly too. 4
Synergy/Tuning: 0 to 5 points
Great synergy here being able to rapidly setup fist while simultaneously having a big knight as a backup plan. I do have to ask, has demonic tutor ever not been restricted since cards have been restricted? I know it's been restricted as long as I'd been playing and I've been playing for 14 years. 3.5
Power/Capacity to win: 0 to 5 points
I think so, and notably it CAN still win even without the fists despite the fists being important. 4
Interaction/Protection: 0 to 5 points
It has a better early game than most thanks to the knight but is still a bit vulnerable and has almost no removal of it's own. Also Blood moon completely wrecks it although maybe that's kind of a silly thought. 3
Format/Thematic: up to 2 points bonus (can't go over 25)
Nope
Creativity/Originality: 0 to 5 points
Definitely an interesting take on the idea. 4.5
Effectiveness/Card adherence: 0 to 5 points
Other than cards wished from the sideboard and the soulscours stuff doesn't benefit from the Fist very much. It's still a fairly good usage though. 3
Synergy/Tuning: 0 to 5 points
Using only basic lands sounds like it might ultimately be a bit of a burden when you're trying to play spells of all colors even with the elders and the golems. Some sort of artifact tutor to find the fist probably would have been helpful as well 3 Power/Capacity to win: 0 to 5 points
I think the deck has sufficient power once the fist is online and you have wishes to get the powerful things but before that it's somewhat lacking. 2.5
Interaction/Protection: 0 to 5 points
Once the fist is online (I've said that too many times, I'm now picturing the fist of the suns surfing the internet.) it has a fairly good removal suite but otherwise nothing. Any destroy artifact effect will probably wreck the deck given the lack of recursion or protection. 2
Format/Thematic: up to 2 points bonus (can't go over 25)
Hokey in my opinion but at least you have something 1.5
Creativity/Originality: 0 to 5 points
I'd been waiting for someone to do a deck like this. 3.5
Effectiveness/Card adherence: 0 to 5 points
In addition to casting big spells, fist helps out sunburst late game. 5
Synergy/Tuning: 0 to 5 points
The deck is very synergistic, everything either combos together or serves as some kind of enabler/protection for a combo. 5 Power/Capacity to win: 0 to 5 points
I think so, it stalls until it can win with the fist or burn people out with ion storm. 4.5
Interaction/Protection: 0 to 5 points
Glen Elendra Archmage helps a lot here protecting your guys from removal and ion storm takes out opponent's creatures. 4.5
Format/Thematic: up to 2 points bonus (can't go over 25)
1 point for any format adherence; 1 point for incorporation of theme/flavour
Creativity/Originality: 0 to 5 points
Similar to another deck posted earlier but still original compared to the majority of the decks and different enough in style to warrant this rating. 3.5
Effectiveness/Card adherence: 0 to 5 points
Pretty well, sunburst cards, legacy weapon and draco can benefit from it. 4.5
Synergy/Tuning: 0 to 5 points
Pretty good combos, notably with the sunburst, nothing else really stood out to me though. 3.5
Power/Capacity to win: 0 to 5 points
It's a little slow but should be decently effective 3
Interaction/Protection: 0 to 5 points
No removal and no way to protect or recover cards from the graveyard. Darksteel forge is your only protection. 1.5
Format/Thematic: up to 2 points bonus (can't go over 25)
Nada
Total: 16
No Name Maddox- 22.5
Post Afffinity- 18.5
Fdtori- 18
Thunder Road- 17
Morphadite2 - 16.5
Jeff Derek- 16
Arclogger- 15
Vickek- 14.5
Blarg I knew I'd forget something in the judging. At least I remembered the important thing, copying and pasting the post to the clipboard so if the forum auto logged me out (which of course it did), I don't lose the time I spent evaluating each deck.
Just to be clear, did I lose points for creativity because someone else posted the deck idea here first? And even if I didn't, is that the way we're doing things?
JeffDerek, I actually went back and forth on giving you the same rating on the creativity front as the earlier deck. Basically it came down to the fact that his idea was unique when he posted it while yours several days later had a similar concept to his. Honestly if I had decided to do the ratings to 1/4 of a point rather than half I probably would have docked you only a 1/4 of a point, but I decided to limit myself to halves. Also I held you guys to the same standard I hold myself with regards to creativity, if someone else has already posted a deck using the concept it's not that original. I will take a look again though. Ehh looking at it again, yours is a more aggro build while the earlier deck is controllish. It's different enough from the others, I'll give you the half a point I guess
I didn't read anyone else's deck. In fact, if you click on the "Sunburst" link in my sig, you'll notice a remarkable similarity to a deck I already designed myself
Is this now based on speed as well? What's the point in allowing a week to design the decks if you have to be the first person in with an idea to get full points?
Sorry to be complainy. I'll shut up now and let it drop.
Wow that was pretty fast Flatulence, I'll get back to that in a moment.
@Urweak: I wouldn't say your deck lacked an early game as much as some of the other entries, but it still felt a bit weak early on. But that alone would not disqualify you from top 8... The cards in the deck also felt a bit mismatched, like the Rector; you only had 3 cards to fetch. Putting something like Prismatic Omen, Dawn's Reflection, or any other enchantments that fit with FOTS and showed you wanted to explore that design space would have helped. And even if Dralnu's Pet is a cool find and has synnergy with your high-cost spells, this strategy feels only half-baked as well (though I like Maelstrom Archangel with it). So for my part, I think the deck would have fared better had you concentrated on only one of these 2 strategies.
@MP28: Like Morphadite2 mentionned, though it may be good, your deck really doesn't really need the chosen card; had your deck been chosen, that unfortunately would have translated to a lot of point losses, especially in the first 3 categories.
@Jeff Derek: Though a lot of decks end up being similar and shouldn't suffer point losses for lack of originality, it still makes it harder for any of these deck to stand above the others. Sometimes it requires deeper analysis and a bit of testing, to find the superior one.
Also you are right there are no B & R list, but you should at least try to justify a bit why your deck needs, say 4 sol rings, eh?
...
Now going back to Flatulence, posting your results fast is great, but it means you might make mistakes in judgment too, But I see and I am glad that you are flexible enough to make a few changes here and there when it is warranted.
A note of advice to future judges; if for some reason, like Flatulence, you don't have time to thoroughly analyze or test decks, it's still all good and well, but then it would be better if you wait a bit to post your scores. At least until judges who have had more time to test, post their own results. Now I don't mean by it, that you should just copy other judges' ratings, but at least that way you can spot if you have missed something important about a certain deck, like a funky card interaction, etc.
...
Now funny I should mention that, allow me to indulge in a bit of self-promotion (or me trying have a judge make a correction)
Interaction/Protection: 0 to 5 points
Has a good amount of removal but all of the removal pretty much requires fist of the suns to be online. Reusing Eternal witness via lifeline and a sac effect like the altar does alleviate the effects of an opponent's removal though. 3
But let me add that it seems you missed the 3 Duplicants in the deck, plus the 4 Tinkers that can fetch them like, right now?
Primary and only casual rule: "any rule that is fine for the most part of the playgroup, is a fine rule". So any further thread with: "if somebody uses/does .... in a casual game, is it ethical/ok?", read the answer above.
- Being a "Johnny/Spike" means you like self-torture. You win often in casual, so everybody hates you; you loose often in competitive, so you hate yourself.
Dang I keep forgetting that Duplicants can remove other people's permanents. Keep it coming, I'm open to changing if you make a good case. Since I adjusted it a full point I figure I'd better give a more thorough rationale for upping the interaction rating. Basically given that you can tinker for the duplicant and lifeline makes it reusable with a sac outlet, it's pretty effective as far as removal goes.
Also, rating on creativity is going to be very subjective. Basically I tried to determine how unique the deck was when it was posted, because it woudn't be that deck's fault if a later deck copied ideas from it. This is not to say that any decks did but it just seemed to be the fairest way of assessing it.
As far as the cards that are restricted being 4 of's in decks go, I didn't take off for it although I am somewhat disapproving, as any casual group I've played in has conformed strictly to the cards that were restricted, well except for ponder. So no points were taken off but I will now grumble incoherently at you for doing it.
You can put stuff like Yagmoth's Will, Tinker, Skullclamp, etc, as four-ofs; So long as I feel that they work well with the selected card and are not just throw-ins or ways to make your deck into a broken, auto-win powerhouse.
Let me illustrate where I would draw the line with an example:
But then things turned sour when he decided to put a couple of Darksteel Colossus and proceeded to smash us each and every game :mad:, that's when we forced him to either change the deck back to what it was or retire it.
Primary and only casual rule: "any rule that is fine for the most part of the playgroup, is a fine rule". So any further thread with: "if somebody uses/does .... in a casual game, is it ethical/ok?", read the answer above.
- Being a "Johnny/Spike" means you like self-torture. You win often in casual, so everybody hates you; you loose often in competitive, so you hate yourself.
It might be a good idea to include an example in the original rules. I mean, there's a reason for each card that is restricted. For some cards (like Tinker, or Ponder) it's because of their interaction with certain other cards. As long as you don't use them in that manner, to create some unbalanced deck, you're fine. 4 Tinkers shouldn't bother people until someone slaps it in arcbound deck or something.
On the other hand, Ancestrall Recall and Demonic Tutor are just plain overpowered cards by themselves. They don't need to be in a certain type of deck to be overpowered. Therefore . . . . don't use 4 of them.
I'm totally down with this whole concept, I just think we should add an example or something to the rules so it is clearer to people. I did a deck in Season 1 running 4 Tinkers that NEVER should've had them, but I did because I didn't know any better. That shouldn't discourage new players.
I'm totally down with this whole concept, I just think we should add an example or something to the rules so it is clearer to people. I did a deck in Season 1 running 4 Tinkers that NEVER should've had them, but I did because I didn't know any better. That shouldn't discourage new players.
J
I think J's on the money here. If we're going to say "use anything," but judge based on what we feel is overpowered, we should clarify what cards fall into that category.
I play nothing but budget casual anymore, same with everyone else in my playgroup. We've never had a problem with Tinker or Tutor because nobody plays it. The only things we ever banned were Counterspell and Lightning Bolt. Oh, and Recurring Nightmare, but just because we banned it doesn't mean the guy stopped using it.
What I'm saying is, I'm going to see Counterspells and Lightning Bolts in decks and instantly be reminded of how much I hate them, though in most playgroups nobody's going to care. I'm assuming everyone has their cards that fit that same bill. Maybe on collective input we could make a list of the cards playgroups hate seeing so we know what to look out for.
That way, it's not a B&R, it's more of a "Tread Lightly" List.
Would the judges be really nice and analyze my deck, too?
I know it sucks, i noticed that in MWS testing, but i want to learn more, so i want to get some critic..
My perspective...
I like the idea of using FoS to cheaply cast high cost sunburst cards. Unfortunately, that is all your deck does. The focus is too narrow. The deck brings big and really big artifact creatures into play. There are so very many ways of stopping creatures and artifacts that I would think this type of deck needs some sort of 'plan b'. The deck also lacks much in terms of early game.
Some suggestions for improvement include,
*consider lower cost sunburst cards that could be cast early game without the fist, and late game for more benefit with the fist or some other early game creatures that speed up your ramp.
*consider ways to make the bigcreaturesuseful if you aren't able to attack with them or are getting targeted with removal.
*considering leveraging the limits of your permanents against your opponent
Would the judges be really nice and analyze my deck, too?
I know it sucks, i noticed that in MWS testing, but i want to learn more, so i want to get some critic..
Well your deck doesn't "all-around suck"; in a slow, multiplayer environment, it could have its moments.
Let's see...
First 20 lands is a bad Idea with so high a curve, even with Kodama's Reach and Pentad Prism. 23 to 25 would probably be right. And not so many Vivid lands please! It's like you have your own little Root Maze going on :-/.
Then let's talk about the curve itself. Without Fist of Suns, you are kind of screwed; yes, the chosen card is important but not on the level of making the deck almost unplayable without it.
4 each of all your high-cost creatures will clog up your hand. You need to open up space in the deck; in the sense that your deck was also lacking cheap and quick answers to threats, ways to provide card advantage, library manipulation and/or Tutoring.
An easy way to make such space would be to drop all your 6+ spells to 2 of each and drop the Wanderer altogether as he doesn't do much (you don't really NEED a 20/20 creature), that gives you 12 free slots right away.
And another thing, Win-more is usually bad, you can have a few win-more cards in multiplayer as any deck needs additionnal reach in that format, but in duels you want to avoid those like the plague.
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@Jeff Derek and Thunder Road: I can maybe add a few more examples to the OP (thanks for the suggestion), but I'm not going to try to make a list of every B & R cards and say what you can and cannot use each card with!
The B & R list is there for a reason, so by default it IS a "thread lightly" list.
If a contestant posts a deck that has more than 1 copy of a B & R card, he or she should always include a few words as to why this card is needed and is not broken herein. Judges can then at least weigh your arguments and give them merit or not.
If you don't know that a card in your deck is in the B & R list, well tough luck. The judges will then rule it as they see it; abusive/unfair means they can decide to penalize it, but it's up to each judge to gauge how much.
I think we all need to learn from some of the mistakes we make, not have somebody save us from them, all the time.
Now, if you know a card is in the list but are not sure about the interaction with your other cards in the deck, then my advice would be to ask away. I'm sure people will be more than happy to help.
One more thing for Thunder Road; 4 Demonic Tutors in a "fishbowl-race-to-victory" combo deck IS abusive; consequently I will NOT be penalizing your deck for the tutors as I don't think your deck is of that type :).
Primary and only casual rule: "any rule that is fine for the most part of the playgroup, is a fine rule". So any further thread with: "if somebody uses/does .... in a casual game, is it ethical/ok?", read the answer above.
- Being a "Johnny/Spike" means you like self-torture. You win often in casual, so everybody hates you; you loose often in competitive, so you hate yourself.
That's more than fair. I really think Ponder/Brainstorm vs. Demonic Tutor/Ancestral Recall is a good example of which restricted cards are fine in this format and which ones are abusive. There's no need for an exhaustive list, but some explanation of what judges are looking at is helpful.
Part of me loves this contest as a way to prove that I'm the best deckbuilder around (despite having not won the contest yet). Another part of me loves learning more and more about deckbuilding the more I participate in the contest. As such, I'd like to find ways to make it accessible to newbs.
I can dig it. I think that sums it up as well as it needs to be. Actually, I think your wording on the first page of the thread sums it up just as well. Kudos for the base coverage. Have some of mine, I deserve to let them go for dragging this discussion on.
So, for Judge info (and to follow proper protocol), I'll returning to my post to explain why I chose the Tutor. If anyone can still find the drive to care...lol
I know its over but I just found this thread so I thought I'd post my 45 mins work.. I didn't see any similar to this but I just scanned over the pages. I doubt this would work well but its all I could decide would be a good use of that card. And even this.. Fist only helps me with Insurrection and Patron of the Orochi but a few turns early can make the difference.
Peacekeeper and Ghostly Prison is to keep you alive long enough..The druid and patron are to untap all lands if prismatic omen is out. The main kill is natural affinity then untap then insurrection. The aggravated assault is just an overkill infinate mana combo + attack phases incase 1 round of attacking with almost every perm on the board isn't enough to kill all players and one wants to attack 3 or 4 more times.
I know its over but I just found this thread so I thought I'd post my 45 mins work...
First let me welcome you. Nice deck, too bad this round is basically over, looking forward to your participation in the next round which usually starts Sunday.
...
Ok well, time to post my scores for this round. I'm glad about the 8 decks; it means I had more time to analyze them.
I see I am at the limit of the judging period and the 2 other judges have not posted yet, I'll enquire and try to get everything by tomorrow at the latest so the winner has the time to submit a card.
Creativity/Originality: 3.5
How creative and original is your deck.
- Monogreen druid deck with a conflux into myojin plan, creative and original enough. Effectiveness/Card adherence: 2.5
How well does it use the selected card?
- It uses it some, but could've been better; i.e. not enough cards care about it to warrant more points. Also feels thrown-in, since you have so many ways to produce mana, do you really need the Fist? Synergy/Tuning: 2.5
How well do the cards combine in the deck; elegance and card selection.
- So so, tribal mechanics make it somewhat fun.
- I don't like Boseiju in here, it only works with 5 cards in the deck and has no synnergy with Fist of Suns.
- I would have liked to have seen some druid bashing with big splashy spells, something like Decree of Savagery maybe? Power/Capacity to win: 2.5
Can the deck deliver the goods?
- Well, fast critters and fast mana are always nice; the tribal plan with the Archdruid is much more potent than any Fist shenanigans, sadly Interaction/Protection: 1.5
How well does the deck interact and deal with other decks.
- Myojin interactions - not much else, and they don't come quickly enough to matter. Format/Thematic: 1
1 point for any format adherence; 1 point for incorporation of theme/flavour
- Druid tribal. Total: 14.5
- You had seemed surprised that this qualified for top 8; I did not choose this deck to qualify myself; so it seems someone thought you were right ;). Better luck next time.
Creativity/Originality: 4
How creative and original is your deck.
- Very original and fresh, infinite-life plan with the Renewal. Effectiveness/Card adherence: 3.5
How well does it use the selected card?
- Well it's crucial to the deck, even though not a lot of pieces actually benefit from it. Synergy/Tuning: 3.5
How well do the cards combine in the deck; elegance and card selection.
- Leonin Squire is a very nice touch.
- Playing it I would have often liked something to get cards in my hands without drawing them, to circumvent Renewal, like Impulse or Scroll Rack.
- Tezzeret fits as a tutor but not much else, wasted potential or deck slot there. Power/Capacity to win: 3
Can the deck deliver the goods?
- Well, it seems a tad fragile and somewhat slow. Your only avenue to victory seems to be Escape Artist, but that's not totally true; you can use the combo with Lumengrid Sentinel during your turn and attack with the rest of your crew... How much of a crew will you have with the Renewal though? Interaction/Protection: 1
How well does the deck interact and deal with other decks.
- The Sentinel taps down stuff but is only really efective on defense with the Orrery.
- Nothing else; a fishbowl combo deck if I ever saw one (not that this is so bad, but it isn't very interactive)
- You should have included something to protect your combo from disruption, or more ways to recycle it, 1 bauble is not enough IMO. Format/Thematic: 0
1 point for any format adherence; 1 point for incorporation of theme/flavour
- Nothing here. Total: 15
- Great Idea, but this is a case where it looks better than it plays, but do keep it up, with creativity in the pocket, you're more than halfway there!
Creativity/Originality: 3.5
How creative and original is your deck.
- Playing the fatties towards victory plan; pretty straightforward, but some innovation is there in regard to the way to get to domain. Effectiveness/Card adherence: 3.5
How well does it use the selected card?
- Important enough; will get used, nothing much else to say. Synergy/Tuning: 4
How well do the cards combine in the deck; elegance and card selection.
- Lots of ways to get domain mana, and bonus is Kaleidostone, Manamorphose and Kodama's Reach all act to accelerate/thin the deck in a funky way; making the deck get to where it's headed sooner.
- Fierce Empath is a good find also.
- I also really like Phage the Untouchable with Insurrection. Why the singleton Phage? A focused Phage deck with Fist would have been much cooler IMO.
- Also like the tutors.
- You say you don't need Grozoth for tutoring, What is it for then? There are plenty of better huge beatsticks, or is it that it was there for a previous verion of the deck that included Plague Wind? That card would have been the more synnergistic choice with Grozoth. Power/Capacity to win: 3.5
Can the deck deliver the goods?
- Might get into trouble VS fast aggro, might be in trouble VS dedicated control, but just maybe fast enough to pull through against a lot of casual stuff. Interaction/Protection: 1.5
How well does the deck interact and deal with other decks.
- Insurrection and that's it... Format/Thematic: 0
1 point for any format adherence; 1 point for incorporation of theme/flavour
- Nothing in here. Total: 16
- Original mana solutions, good tutoring, but done-in by the lack of interaction and Protection, sorry...
Creativity/Originality: 4.5
How creative and original is your deck.
- Totally unexpected approach, Tron in a working Fist of Suns deck, cool! Effectiveness/Card adherence: 4.0
How well does it use the selected card?
- Lots of spells to play through Fists, so direct approach, nothing fancy or innovative about this aspect. Synergy/Tuning: 4
How well do the cards combine in the deck; elegance and card selection.
- I like the overall feel of this deck, the deck thining aspect is well done with the Knights, the Expanses and Scapeshift, the quality of the card draw just gets better and better while the knights get bigger.
- Your no-tolbox approach with KOTR though bugs me a bit, there should at least be a couple of lands with funky abilitie that could answer threats; Maze of Ith and Strip Mine are 2 obvious ones.
- (by the way, you can't swing with 2 Progenitus because of legendary status y'know). Power/Capacity to win: 4
Can the deck deliver the goods?
- I think so, this thing can get out of hand for the opponent if left unchecked. Interaction/Protection: 3
How well does the deck interact and deal with other decks.
- Though the deck has some removal for creatures, there is nothing VS enchantments and artifacts, If you had put O-rings in here instead of Path, it might have scored you a bit more; but the best thing would have been to keep the Paths and add some non-creature removal. Format/Thematic: 0
1 point for any format adherence; 1 point for incorporation of theme/flavour
- nope. Total: 19.5
- Solid 1st-time entry. Welcome to the contest, and good luck for the rest of the season!
Creativity/Originality: 4
How creative and original is your deck.
- Golem Tribal! I'm glad somebody made that deck, not a tribe used often so very original and fresh. Effectiveness/Card adherence: 3.5
How well does it use the selected card?
- Effective usage when it counts, but not enough times to warrant a better score IMO, even with the Sideboard. Synergy/Tuning: 3.5
How well do the cards combine in the deck; elegance and card selection.
- Soulscour, good find!
- Why no Darksteel Colossus? probably the only deck where it would have been on theme.
- I would have loved to have seen Bosh, Iron Golem in here for some added oommph.
- No Darksteel Forge? Power/Capacity to win: 3.5
Can the deck deliver the goods?
- Fast defense, good beats midgame and a huge death blow that's hard to recover from, succeptible to Artifact hate and Sweepers because of non-existent recursion. Interaction/Protection: 3.5
How well does the deck interact and deal with other decks.
- No Artifact removal.
- I would have tried to put at least 1 more Soulscour.
- A few quick solutions in the wishboard would also have helped. Format/Thematic: 2
1 point for any format adherence; 1 point for incorporation of theme/flavour
- Golem tribal with a neat story a la Magic novels, 2 points bonus for you sir, a first this season, bravo. Total: 20
Creativity/Originality: 4.5
How creative and original is your deck.
- Part Rube Goldberg engine, this iteration exploits (in a kind of mad-scientist way) the known combos with Power Conduit. Effectiveness/Card adherence: 3
How well does it use the selected card?
- Helps for Decree of Silence, Crush of Worms and a few cards in the wishboard, but more often than I would have liked, Fist was a dead draw, hence the scoring here. Synergy/Tuning: 3.5
How well do the cards combine in the deck; elegance and card selection.
- This deck kind of drowns if it can't find the Conduits, tutors for it would have been nice :-/.
- I would have prefered Looter Il-Kor over Merfolk Looter for it's nice shadow interaction with Power Conduit.
- I liked Ion Storm; too bad you can't use it on either of your important pieces, Archmage and Decree, if it had, this deck would have been very hard to beat in this round.
- Glacial Chasm; nice with the conduit, too bad you can't remove the age counter as a response so you don't lose life at all, 2 life per turn is still OK. Power/Capacity to win: 3.5
Can the deck deliver the goods?
- Depends how quickly you can set it up, once it is, I don't see any option for the opponent but to fold.
- Consequently, this deck needs some stalling and I don't feel there is enough of it. I would have chosen Sun Droplet over Clearwater Goblet because it's quicker and provides charge counters as well. I know the goblet brings a sunburst flavor that fits with Fist (say that 5 time quick), but it doesn't make it any more efficient. But the Goblet IS better with Glacial Chasm and does provides another kind of lock-win, but as I said it might be kind of late when you get there. Interaction/Protection: 4
How well does the deck interact and deal with other decks.
- it's a good thing you put cheap effective answers in the wishboard, otherwise, the rating would have been lower.
- Big disruption, but as is already mentionned, comes late.
- Ion Storm, again very cool. Format/Thematic: 1
1 point for any format adherence; 1 point for incorporation of theme/flavour
- Coolest deck name I've seen in quite a while, here's a cookie for ya... Total: 19
- A solid entry, I just wish I could think of this deck as a Fist of Suns deck and not a Power Conduit Deck...
Creativity/Originality: 4.5
How creative and original is your deck.
- Cool Sunburst deck that's not a slave to its theme, I like. Effectiveness/Card adherence: 4
How well does it use the selected card?
- Can be used often enough, is there to bonify the strategy, not be the main attraction. Just a little more fat (like a couple of Suncrushers maybe, etc...) would have made the deck feel a little, more shall we say dedicated. Synergy/Tuning: 4
How well do the cards combine in the deck; elegance and card selection.
- I like Energy Chamber with the Prisms.
- I don't see much in the form of card advantage and recyclability. Power/Capacity to win: 4
Can the deck deliver the goods?
- Very efficient curve, creatures that come out bigger as the game progesses, + a lord to boost your army, me thinks so. Interaction/Protection: 3.5
How well does the deck interact and deal with other decks.
- Legacy Weapon is nice but I would have liked to have seen more solutions here.
- Nevinyrral's Disk with the Forge!!! opportunity missed IMO. Format/Thematic: 0
1 point for any format adherence; 1 point for incorporation of theme/flavour
- Nothing to see here. Total: 20
Jeff Derek - 20 Morphadite2 - 20
Thunder Road - 19.5
No name Maddox - 19.5
Arc-Logger - 16
Vickek - 15
Post Affinity - 14.5
Primary and only casual rule: "any rule that is fine for the most part of the playgroup, is a fine rule". So any further thread with: "if somebody uses/does .... in a casual game, is it ethical/ok?", read the answer above.
- Being a "Johnny/Spike" means you like self-torture. You win often in casual, so everybody hates you; you loose often in competitive, so you hate yourself.
- Nevinyrral's Disk with the Forge!!! opportunity missed IMO.
I wanted to so bad It was one of the last cuts from the deck, in order to get a few more fatties in (I'm fairly sure I cut the Disk and included Draco). A buddy of mine runs that combo, and it is just painful beyond all reason. There's not a lot of cards that RFG an artifact fast enough to do it before he can trip the disk.
My apologies for the delay. I was hoping to have my judging complete by this afternoon, but it didn't work out that way. With any luck, I'll be able to get back at it tonight and post by tomorrow. I didn't realize all the judging had to be completed during the work-week (monday night ~ friday noon). I should have read the OP closer before volunteering.
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As would I please
I believe your deck falls under the 'no early game' status that many fell into. For your deck ... I see some deck manipulation, a few artifacts, and maybe a Grey Ogre as your first 3~4 turns.
Though I do not believe it would change the judging, if you would like to enlighten me on what early game your deck has, I'd be most interested to know. It will certainly help me judge these decks, if I missed something.
I must admit, your deck fell border-line top 8 for me and got eked out by Post Affinity due to that deck looking more tightly tuned. I really liked your Dralnu's Pet usage to dump the high CC cards. Unfortunately that card costs UUB3 to do it.
I don't know that it is or is not an excuse, but please be aware we had 24 hours to whittle-down the top 8 based on a quick-look, and may have missed some interactions the deck designer assumed to be obvious. If it wasn't described or noted in the original deck submission, I know I may have missed it. Note, this is just my perspective.
Your deck doesn't really need the card of the week. All of the Bringers already can come into play with WURGB, without Fist of Suns. Fist of Suns only helps get the Mycosynth Lattice, which only reduces the cost by 1, or Progenitus, which seems like a 'win more' card when you're dropping Bringers. Again, strictly my perspective and not necessarily representative of all the other judges.
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Gilt-Leaf Archdruid
3 Birchlore Ranger
3 Rofellos, llanowar emissary
4 Orochi Leafcaller
2 Joiner adept
4 Fist of Suns
3 Glimpse of Nature
3 Conflux
1 Myojin of Cleansing Fire
1 Myojin of Seeing Winds
1 Myojin of Infinite Rage
2 Torrent of Fire
1 Myojin of Night's Reach
1 MYojin of Life's Web
1 Pendelhaven
3 Gaea's Cradle
12 Forest
2 Boseiju, who shelters all
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
3.5 The druid setup and the torrent of fire bring a smidge of originality to the deck.
Effectiveness/Card adherence: 0 to 5 points
Plays the big ol expensive Myojins from your hand for divinity counters
on the cheap. Pretty good usage 3.5
Synergy/Tuning: 0 to 5 points
Pretty effective, the various druids particularly the Orochi Leaf Caller setup Fist of the Suns Myojin's pretty well. 4
Power/Capacity to win: 0 to 5 points
I think this deck has a good capacity to win due to the acceleration and card draw. 4
Interaction/Protection: 0 to 5 points
Has basically no removal other than Torrent of Fire or some of the Myojin abilities. This could be a problem for a lot of decks. Board sweepers also completely wreck the deck. 2.5
Format/Thematic: up to 2 points bonus (can't go over 25)
Tribal 1
Total: 18.5
4 leonin elder
4 leonin squire
1 escape artist
3 vedalken engineer
3 trinket mage
2 lumengrid sentinel
2 composite golem
Artifacts:
1 Conjurer's Bauble
4 chromatic star
2 fist of suns
1 vedalken orrery
2 enduring renewal
Instants:
3 enlightened tutor
3 thirst for knowledge
Sorceries:
1 resurrection
1 beacon of tomorrows
Planeswalkers:
1 tezzeret the seeker
Lands:
4 seat of the synod
4 ancient den
1 great furnace
1 vault of whispers
1 tree of tales
5 island
6 plains
This deck is definitely an original attempt. 4.5
Effectiveness/Card adherence: 0 to 5 points
The particular combo is good but the fist is basically useless without the golem. Tutors alleviate this somewhat. 3
Synergy/Tuning: 0 to 5 points
The deck seems pretty well tuned with lots of search and recovery effects and exploitation of artifact come into play effects beyond even the combo. 3.5
Power/Capacity to win: 0 to 5 points
Here we have a slight problem. The decks only feasible way to win is to play beacon of tomorrow's repeatedly with infinite mana and hit with the escape artist, both one of's. If you have infinite mana you should have more ways to win than this, especially since there's no guarantee you'll draw the beacon again. 2
Interaction/Protection: 0 to 5 points
Any remove from game removal completely wrecks the deck especially since key cards are present in low numbers. Something to either give your artifacts shroud or counters to protect them probably would have been a good idea. 1.5
Format/Thematic: up to 2 points bonus (can't go over 25)
nope
Total: 14.5
1x Progenitus
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1x Akroma, Angel of Fury
1x Darksteel Colossus
1x Phage the Untouchable
1x Bringer of the Black Dawn
Fat spells: 3
3x Insurrection
4x Fist of Suns
4x Kodama’s Reach
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Kaleidostone
4x Manamorphose
4x Fierce Empath
3x Fabricate
2x Grozoth
2x Stomping Ground
2x Breeding Pool
4x jungle shrine
4x Forest
2x Island
2x Mountain
2x Plains
2x Swamp
Seems like the obvious thing to do hear, not particularly original although insurrection is a nice addition. 2
Effectiveness/Card adherence: 0 to 5 points
No complaints here, lot's of big bomby spells cheapened by the fist. 4
Synergy/Tuning: 0 to 5 points
Lots of fixing and tutors to keep the deck running smoothly 3.5
Power/Capacity to win: 0 to 5 points
Should fairly easily be able to get a fist out and get at least one big spell off I'd think. 4
Interaction/Protection: 0 to 5 points
All of these decks are going to be a smidge on the slow side so there really needs to be some removal or some way to protect your stuff. 1.5
Format/Thematic: up to 2 points bonus (can't go over 25)
Total:15
4 Panglacial Wurm
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Woodfall Primus
2 Eternal Witness
3 Solemn Simulacrum
3 Duplicant
2 Composite Golem
Spells (15)
4 Tinker
4 Living Wish
3 Fist of Suns
3 Lifeline
2 Phyrexian Altar
1 Akroma's Memorial
4 Tropical Island
2 High Market
3 Tree of Tales
2 Seat of the synod
2 Terramorphic Expanse
4 Forest
2 Island
1 swamp
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Eternal Witness
1 Blazing Archon
1 Archon of Justice
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Bogardan Hellkite
1 Hoverguard Sweepers
1 Prince of Thralls
1 Progenitus
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Composite Golem
1 Duplicant
1 Diamond Valley
1 Maze of Ith
1 Strip Mine
A bit original although still pretty similar to the other decks. The Panglacial Wurm setup does get you some kudos though. 3
Effectiveness/Card adherence: 0 to 5 points
Seems to be pretty efficient, especially with the sideboard. 4
Synergy/Tuning: 0 to 5 points
Lifeline is just brutal with all these expensive creatures, particularly the primus. Insures those big creatures you play through the Fist stick around. 4
Power/Capacity to win: 0 to 5 points
Seems pretty able to win me, effective if not spectacular. 4
Interaction/Protection: 0 to 5 points
Has a good amount of removal but all of the removal pretty much requires fist of the suns to be online. Reusing Eternal witness via lifeline and a sac effect like the altar does alleviate the effects of an opponent's removal though. Duplicant along with tinker and the lifeline, seems like pretty effective removal. 4
Format/Thematic: up to 2 points bonus (can't go over 25)
Total: 18
3 Crystal Quarry
7 Forest
4 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Terramorphic Expanse
2 Urza's Tower
2 Urza's power Plant
2 Urza's mine
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Progenitus
1 Hypnox
1 Darksteel Colossus
Spells
2 Tooth and Nail
2 Time Stretch
1 Crush of Wurms
1 Storm Herd
1 Plague Wind
4 Demonic Tutor
4 Scapeshift
4 Path to Exile
4 Fist of Suns
I like the use of the Reliquary and Tron to provide a different flavor to the deck 3.5
Effectiveness/Card adherence: 0 to 5 points
Lots of big spells and should be able to find them pretty quickly too. 4
Synergy/Tuning: 0 to 5 points
Great synergy here being able to rapidly setup fist while simultaneously having a big knight as a backup plan. I do have to ask, has demonic tutor ever not been restricted since cards have been restricted? I know it's been restricted as long as I'd been playing and I've been playing for 14 years. 3.5
Power/Capacity to win: 0 to 5 points
I think so, and notably it CAN still win even without the fists despite the fists being important. 4
Interaction/Protection: 0 to 5 points
It has a better early game than most thanks to the knight but is still a bit vulnerable and has almost no removal of it's own. Also Blood moon completely wrecks it although maybe that's kind of a silly thought. 3
Format/Thematic: up to 2 points bonus (can't go over 25)
Nope
Total: 18
9 Plains
9 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Island
Land Search (and defense)
4 Solemn Simulacrum
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
Defense
3 Junktroller
4 Emblazoned Golem
2 Walking Archive
2 Salvage Titan
2 Brass Herald
4 Glittering Wish
3 Fist of Suns
3 Composite Golem
Sweepers
2 Soulscour (short-cast with fist)
3 Hurricane (air defense)
1 Autochthon Wurm
1 Progenitus
1 Hellkite Overlord
1 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
1 Worldpurge
1 Titanic Ultimatum
1 Violent Ultimatum
1 Cruel Ultimatum
1 Szadek, Lord of Secrets
1 Angel of Despair
1 Charnelhoard Wurm
1 Blood Tyrant
1 Magister Sphinx
1 Simic Sky Swallower
1 Empyrial Archangel
Definitely an interesting take on the idea. 4.5
Effectiveness/Card adherence: 0 to 5 points
Other than cards wished from the sideboard and the soulscours stuff doesn't benefit from the Fist very much. It's still a fairly good usage though. 3
Synergy/Tuning: 0 to 5 points
Using only basic lands sounds like it might ultimately be a bit of a burden when you're trying to play spells of all colors even with the elders and the golems. Some sort of artifact tutor to find the fist probably would have been helpful as well 3
Power/Capacity to win: 0 to 5 points
I think the deck has sufficient power once the fist is online and you have wishes to get the powerful things but before that it's somewhat lacking. 2.5
Interaction/Protection: 0 to 5 points
Once the fist is online (I've said that too many times, I'm now picturing the fist of the suns surfing the internet.) it has a fairly good removal suite but otherwise nothing. Any destroy artifact effect will probably wreck the deck given the lack of recursion or protection. 2
Format/Thematic: up to 2 points bonus (can't go over 25)
Hokey in my opinion but at least you have something 1.5
Total: 16.5
4x Mirrodins Core
2x Glacial Chasm
2x Rupture Spire
2x Shimmering Grotto
3x Tendo Ice Bridge
3x Crosis's Catacombs
1x Vivid Crag
1x Vivid Creek
1x Vivid Grove
1x Vivid Meadow
4x Reflecting Pool
4x Merfolk Looter
4x Glen Elendra Archmage
Spells - 28
4x Fist of Suns
3x Ion Storm
3x clearwater goblet
4x Power Conduit
4x Glittering Wish
4x Pentad Prism
3x Decree of Silence
3x Crush of Wurms
1x Death Mutation
1x Yavimaya's Embrace
1x Charnelhoard Wurm
1x Phantom Nishoba
1x Vampiric Dragon
1x Empyrial Archangel
1x Kaervek the Merciless
1x Mindleech Mass
1x Terminate
1x hull breach
1x lightning helix
1x Jund Charm
1x Gilder Bairn
1x Perplex
1x Dimir Infiltrator
I'd been waiting for someone to do a deck like this. 3.5
Effectiveness/Card adherence: 0 to 5 points
In addition to casting big spells, fist helps out sunburst late game. 5
Synergy/Tuning: 0 to 5 points
The deck is very synergistic, everything either combos together or serves as some kind of enabler/protection for a combo. 5
Power/Capacity to win: 0 to 5 points
I think so, it stalls until it can win with the fist or burn people out with ion storm. 4.5
Interaction/Protection: 0 to 5 points
Glen Elendra Archmage helps a lot here protecting your guys from removal and ion storm takes out opponent's creatures. 4.5
Format/Thematic: up to 2 points bonus (can't go over 25)
1 point for any format adherence; 1 point for incorporation of theme/flavour
Total: 22.5
4x Suntouched Myr
4x Emblazoned Golem
4x Master of Etherium
3x Bringer of the Black Dawn
2x Draco
1x Copper Myr
1x Silver Myr
1x Leaden Myr
1x Gold Myr
4x Pentad Prism
4x Energy Chamber
3x Legacy Weapon
3x Fist of Suns
2x Darksteel Forge
1x Clearwater Goblet
Land (22)
4x Glimmervoid
2x Terramorphic Expanse
2x Seat of the Synod
2x Vault of Whispers
2x Great Furnace
2x Ancient Den
2x Tree of Tales
1x Crystal Quarry
1x Forest
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Island
Similar to another deck posted earlier but still original compared to the majority of the decks and different enough in style to warrant this rating. 3.5
Effectiveness/Card adherence: 0 to 5 points
Pretty well, sunburst cards, legacy weapon and draco can benefit from it. 4.5
Synergy/Tuning: 0 to 5 points
Pretty good combos, notably with the sunburst, nothing else really stood out to me though. 3.5
Power/Capacity to win: 0 to 5 points
It's a little slow but should be decently effective 3
Interaction/Protection: 0 to 5 points
No removal and no way to protect or recover cards from the graveyard. Darksteel forge is your only protection. 1.5
Format/Thematic: up to 2 points bonus (can't go over 25)
Nada
Total: 16
No Name Maddox- 22.5
Post Afffinity- 18.5
Fdtori- 18
Thunder Road- 17
Morphadite2 - 16.5
Jeff Derek- 16
Arclogger- 15
Vickek- 14.5
Good job everybody!
Oh, and Flatulence Incarnate, remember, "Druid Tribal":D
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)
I didn't read anyone else's deck. In fact, if you click on the "Sunburst" link in my sig, you'll notice a remarkable similarity to a deck I already designed myself
Is this now based on speed as well? What's the point in allowing a week to design the decks if you have to be the first person in with an idea to get full points?
Sorry to be complainy. I'll shut up now and let it drop.
J
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)
Nobody wins.
H/W.
True, but don't forget "his is "casual", so all sets that are legal in Vintage are fair game; there is no banned and restricted list besides Un-sets."
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)
@Urweak: I wouldn't say your deck lacked an early game as much as some of the other entries, but it still felt a bit weak early on. But that alone would not disqualify you from top 8... The cards in the deck also felt a bit mismatched, like the Rector; you only had 3 cards to fetch. Putting something like Prismatic Omen, Dawn's Reflection, or any other enchantments that fit with FOTS and showed you wanted to explore that design space would have helped. And even if Dralnu's Pet is a cool find and has synnergy with your high-cost spells, this strategy feels only half-baked as well (though I like Maelstrom Archangel with it). So for my part, I think the deck would have fared better had you concentrated on only one of these 2 strategies.
@MP28: Like Morphadite2 mentionned, though it may be good, your deck really doesn't really need the chosen card; had your deck been chosen, that unfortunately would have translated to a lot of point losses, especially in the first 3 categories.
@Jeff Derek: Though a lot of decks end up being similar and shouldn't suffer point losses for lack of originality, it still makes it harder for any of these deck to stand above the others. Sometimes it requires deeper analysis and a bit of testing, to find the superior one.
Also you are right there are no B & R list, but you should at least try to justify a bit why your deck needs, say 4 sol rings, eh?
...
Now going back to Flatulence, posting your results fast is great, but it means you might make mistakes in judgment too, But I see and I am glad that you are flexible enough to make a few changes here and there when it is warranted.
A note of advice to future judges; if for some reason, like Flatulence, you don't have time to thoroughly analyze or test decks, it's still all good and well, but then it would be better if you wait a bit to post your scores. At least until judges who have had more time to test, post their own results. Now I don't mean by it, that you should just copy other judges' ratings, but at least that way you can spot if you have missed something important about a certain deck, like a funky card interaction, etc.
...
Now funny I should mention that, allow me to indulge in a bit of self-promotion (or me trying have a judge make a correction)
But let me add that it seems you missed the 3 Duplicants in the deck, plus the 4 Tinkers that can fetch them like, right now?
Fdtori makes a good point. For me. Tinker is definitely restricted.
Nobody wins.
H/W.
Also, rating on creativity is going to be very subjective. Basically I tried to determine how unique the deck was when it was posted, because it woudn't be that deck's fault if a later deck copied ideas from it. This is not to say that any decks did but it just seemed to be the fairest way of assessing it.
As far as the cards that are restricted being 4 of's in decks go, I didn't take off for it although I am somewhat disapproving, as any casual group I've played in has conformed strictly to the cards that were restricted, well except for ponder. So no points were taken off but I will now grumble incoherently at you for doing it.
Bwarghblartporegragaaama.
You can put stuff like Yagmoth's Will, Tinker, Skullclamp, etc, as four-ofs; So long as I feel that they work well with the selected card and are not just throw-ins or ways to make your deck into a broken, auto-win powerhouse.
Let me illustrate where I would draw the line with an example:
A friend of mine had 4 Tinkers in his Disciple of the Vault/Goblin Welder/Jester's Scepter deck, and we let it pass because the deck was beautiful to behold (though it was a pain in the butt )...
But then things turned sour when he decided to put a couple of Darksteel Colossus and proceeded to smash us each and every game :mad:, that's when we forced him to either change the deck back to what it was or retire it.
On the other hand, Ancestrall Recall and Demonic Tutor are just plain overpowered cards by themselves. They don't need to be in a certain type of deck to be overpowered. Therefore . . . . don't use 4 of them.
I'm totally down with this whole concept, I just think we should add an example or something to the rules so it is clearer to people. I did a deck in Season 1 running 4 Tinkers that NEVER should've had them, but I did because I didn't know any better. That shouldn't discourage new players.
J
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)
I think J's on the money here. If we're going to say "use anything," but judge based on what we feel is overpowered, we should clarify what cards fall into that category.
I play nothing but budget casual anymore, same with everyone else in my playgroup. We've never had a problem with Tinker or Tutor because nobody plays it. The only things we ever banned were Counterspell and Lightning Bolt. Oh, and Recurring Nightmare, but just because we banned it doesn't mean the guy stopped using it.
What I'm saying is, I'm going to see Counterspells and Lightning Bolts in decks and instantly be reminded of how much I hate them, though in most playgroups nobody's going to care. I'm assuming everyone has their cards that fit that same bill. Maybe on collective input we could make a list of the cards playgroups hate seeing so we know what to look out for.
That way, it's not a B&R, it's more of a "Tread Lightly" List.
Nobody wins.
H/W.
My perspective...
I like the idea of using FoS to cheaply cast high cost sunburst cards. Unfortunately, that is all your deck does. The focus is too narrow. The deck brings big and really big artifact creatures into play. There are so very many ways of stopping creatures and artifacts that I would think this type of deck needs some sort of 'plan b'. The deck also lacks much in terms of early game.
Some suggestions for improvement include,
*consider lower cost sunburst cards that could be cast early game without the fist, and late game for more benefit with the fist or some other early game creatures that speed up your ramp.
*consider ways to make the big creatures useful if you aren't able to attack with them or are getting targeted with removal.
*considering leveraging the limits of your permanents against your opponent
Well your deck doesn't "all-around suck"; in a slow, multiplayer environment, it could have its moments.
Let's see...
First 20 lands is a bad Idea with so high a curve, even with Kodama's Reach and Pentad Prism. 23 to 25 would probably be right. And not so many Vivid lands please! It's like you have your own little Root Maze going on :-/.
Then let's talk about the curve itself. Without Fist of Suns, you are kind of screwed; yes, the chosen card is important but not on the level of making the deck almost unplayable without it.
4 each of all your high-cost creatures will clog up your hand. You need to open up space in the deck; in the sense that your deck was also lacking cheap and quick answers to threats, ways to provide card advantage, library manipulation and/or Tutoring.
An easy way to make such space would be to drop all your 6+ spells to 2 of each and drop the Wanderer altogether as he doesn't do much (you don't really NEED a 20/20 creature), that gives you 12 free slots right away.
And another thing, Win-more is usually bad, you can have a few win-more cards in multiplayer as any deck needs additionnal reach in that format, but in duels you want to avoid those like the plague.
...
@Jeff Derek and Thunder Road: I can maybe add a few more examples to the OP (thanks for the suggestion), but I'm not going to try to make a list of every B & R cards and say what you can and cannot use each card with!
The B & R list is there for a reason, so by default it IS a "thread lightly" list.
If a contestant posts a deck that has more than 1 copy of a B & R card, he or she should always include a few words as to why this card is needed and is not broken herein. Judges can then at least weigh your arguments and give them merit or not.
If you don't know that a card in your deck is in the B & R list, well tough luck. The judges will then rule it as they see it; abusive/unfair means they can decide to penalize it, but it's up to each judge to gauge how much.
I think we all need to learn from some of the mistakes we make, not have somebody save us from them, all the time.
Now, if you know a card is in the list but are not sure about the interaction with your other cards in the deck, then my advice would be to ask away. I'm sure people will be more than happy to help.
One more thing for Thunder Road; 4 Demonic Tutors in a "fishbowl-race-to-victory" combo deck IS abusive; consequently I will NOT be penalizing your deck for the tutors as I don't think your deck is of that type :).
Part of me loves this contest as a way to prove that I'm the best deckbuilder around (despite having not won the contest yet). Another part of me loves learning more and more about deckbuilding the more I participate in the contest. As such, I'd like to find ways to make it accessible to newbs.
J
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)
So, for Judge info (and to follow proper protocol), I'll returning to my post to explain why I chose the Tutor. If anyone can still find the drive to care...lol
Nobody wins.
H/W.
3 Peacekeeper
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Llanowar Druid
2 Patron of the Orochi
3 Ghostly Prison
4 Aggravated Assault
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Natural Affinity
4 Insurrection
4 Prismatic Omen
4 Fist of Suns
10 Forest
10 Plains
First let me welcome you. Nice deck, too bad this round is basically over, looking forward to your participation in the next round which usually starts Sunday.
...
Ok well, time to post my scores for this round. I'm glad about the 8 decks; it means I had more time to analyze them.
I see I am at the limit of the judging period and the 2 other judges have not posted yet, I'll enquire and try to get everything by tomorrow at the latest so the winner has the time to submit a card.
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Gilt-Leaf Archdruid
3 Birchlore Ranger
3 Rofellos, llanowar emissary
4 Orochi Leafcaller
2 Joiner adept
4 Fist of Suns
3 Glimpse of Nature
3 Conflux
1 Myojin of Cleansing Fire
1 Myojin of Seeing Winds
1 Myojin of Infinite Rage
2 Torrent of Fire
1 Myojin of Night's Reach
1 MYojin of Life's Web
1 Pendelhaven
3 Gaea's Cradle
12 Forest
2 Boseiju, who shelters all
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
Creativity/Originality: 3.5
How creative and original is your deck.
- Monogreen druid deck with a conflux into myojin plan, creative and original enough.
Effectiveness/Card adherence: 2.5
How well does it use the selected card?
- It uses it some, but could've been better; i.e. not enough cards care about it to warrant more points. Also feels thrown-in, since you have so many ways to produce mana, do you really need the Fist?
Synergy/Tuning: 2.5
How well do the cards combine in the deck; elegance and card selection.
- So so, tribal mechanics make it somewhat fun.
- I don't like Boseiju in here, it only works with 5 cards in the deck and has no synnergy with Fist of Suns.
- I would have liked to have seen some druid bashing with big splashy spells, something like Decree of Savagery maybe?
Power/Capacity to win: 2.5
Can the deck deliver the goods?
- Well, fast critters and fast mana are always nice; the tribal plan with the Archdruid is much more potent than any Fist shenanigans, sadly
Interaction/Protection: 1.5
How well does the deck interact and deal with other decks.
- Myojin interactions - not much else, and they don't come quickly enough to matter.
Format/Thematic: 1
1 point for any format adherence; 1 point for incorporation of theme/flavour
- Druid tribal.
Total: 14.5
- You had seemed surprised that this qualified for top 8; I did not choose this deck to qualify myself; so it seems someone thought you were right ;). Better luck next time.
4 leonin elder
4 leonin squire
1 escape artist
3 vedalken engineer
3 trinket mage
2 lumengrid sentinel
2 composite golem
Artifacts:
1 Conjurer's Bauble
4 chromatic star
2 fist of suns
1 vedalken orrery
2 enduring renewal
Instants:
3 enlightened tutor
3 thirst for knowledge
Sorceries:
1 resurrection
1 beacon of tomorrows
Planeswalkers:
1 tezzeret the seeker
Lands:
4 seat of the synod
4 ancient den
1 great furnace
1 vault of whispers
1 tree of tales
5 island
6 plains
Creativity/Originality: 4
How creative and original is your deck.
- Very original and fresh, infinite-life plan with the Renewal.
Effectiveness/Card adherence: 3.5
How well does it use the selected card?
- Well it's crucial to the deck, even though not a lot of pieces actually benefit from it.
Synergy/Tuning: 3.5
How well do the cards combine in the deck; elegance and card selection.
- Leonin Squire is a very nice touch.
- Playing it I would have often liked something to get cards in my hands without drawing them, to circumvent Renewal, like Impulse or Scroll Rack.
- Tezzeret fits as a tutor but not much else, wasted potential or deck slot there.
Power/Capacity to win: 3
Can the deck deliver the goods?
- Well, it seems a tad fragile and somewhat slow. Your only avenue to victory seems to be Escape Artist, but that's not totally true; you can use the combo with Lumengrid Sentinel during your turn and attack with the rest of your crew... How much of a crew will you have with the Renewal though?
Interaction/Protection: 1
How well does the deck interact and deal with other decks.
- The Sentinel taps down stuff but is only really efective on defense with the Orrery.
- Nothing else; a fishbowl combo deck if I ever saw one (not that this is so bad, but it isn't very interactive)
- You should have included something to protect your combo from disruption, or more ways to recycle it, 1 bauble is not enough IMO.
Format/Thematic: 0
1 point for any format adherence; 1 point for incorporation of theme/flavour
- Nothing here.
Total: 15
- Great Idea, but this is a case where it looks better than it plays, but do keep it up, with creativity in the pocket, you're more than halfway there!
1x Progenitus
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1x Akroma, Angel of Fury
1x Darksteel Colossus
1x Phage the Untouchable
1x Bringer of the Black Dawn
Fat spells: 3
3x Insurrection
4x Fist of Suns
4x Kodama’s Reach
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Kaleidostone
4x Manamorphose
4x Fierce Empath
3x Fabricate
2x Grozoth
2x Stomping Ground
2x Breeding Pool
4x jungle shrine
4x Forest
2x Island
2x Mountain
2x Plains
2x Swamp
Creativity/Originality: 3.5
How creative and original is your deck.
- Playing the fatties towards victory plan; pretty straightforward, but some innovation is there in regard to the way to get to domain.
Effectiveness/Card adherence: 3.5
How well does it use the selected card?
- Important enough; will get used, nothing much else to say.
Synergy/Tuning: 4
How well do the cards combine in the deck; elegance and card selection.
- Lots of ways to get domain mana, and bonus is Kaleidostone, Manamorphose and Kodama's Reach all act to accelerate/thin the deck in a funky way; making the deck get to where it's headed sooner.
- Fierce Empath is a good find also.
- I also really like Phage the Untouchable with Insurrection. Why the singleton Phage? A focused Phage deck with Fist would have been much cooler IMO.
- Also like the tutors.
- You say you don't need Grozoth for tutoring, What is it for then? There are plenty of better huge beatsticks, or is it that it was there for a previous verion of the deck that included Plague Wind? That card would have been the more synnergistic choice with Grozoth.
Power/Capacity to win: 3.5
Can the deck deliver the goods?
- Might get into trouble VS fast aggro, might be in trouble VS dedicated control, but just maybe fast enough to pull through against a lot of casual stuff.
Interaction/Protection: 1.5
How well does the deck interact and deal with other decks.
- Insurrection and that's it...
Format/Thematic: 0
1 point for any format adherence; 1 point for incorporation of theme/flavour
- Nothing in here.
Total: 16
- Original mana solutions, good tutoring, but done-in by the lack of interaction and Protection, sorry...
4 Panglacial Wurm
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Woodfall Primus
2 Eternal Witness
3 Solemn Simulacrum
3 Duplicant
2 Composite Golem
Spells (15)
4 Tinker
4 Living Wish
3 Fist of Suns
3 Lifeline
2 Phyrexian Altar
1 Akroma's Memorial
4 Tropical Island
2 High Market
3 Tree of Tales
2 Seat of the synod
2 Terramorphic Expanse
4 Forest
2 Island
1 swamp
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Eternal Witness
1 Blazing Archon
1 Archon of Justice
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Bogardan Hellkite
1 Hoverguard Sweepers
1 Prince of Thralls
1 Progenitus
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Composite Golem
1 Duplicant
1 Diamond Valley
1 Maze of Ith
1 Strip Mine
- Not rated
3 Crystal Quarry
7 Forest
4 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Terramorphic Expanse
2 Urza's Tower
2 Urza's power Plant
2 Urza's mine
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Progenitus
1 Hypnox
1 Darksteel Colossus
Spells
2 Tooth and Nail
2 Time Stretch
1 Crush of Wurms
1 Storm Herd
1 Plague Wind
4 Demonic Tutor
4 Scapeshift
4 Path to Exile
4 Fist of Suns
Creativity/Originality: 4.5
How creative and original is your deck.
- Totally unexpected approach, Tron in a working Fist of Suns deck, cool!
Effectiveness/Card adherence: 4.0
How well does it use the selected card?
- Lots of spells to play through Fists, so direct approach, nothing fancy or innovative about this aspect.
Synergy/Tuning: 4
How well do the cards combine in the deck; elegance and card selection.
- I like the overall feel of this deck, the deck thining aspect is well done with the Knights, the Expanses and Scapeshift, the quality of the card draw just gets better and better while the knights get bigger.
- Your no-tolbox approach with KOTR though bugs me a bit, there should at least be a couple of lands with funky abilitie that could answer threats; Maze of Ith and Strip Mine are 2 obvious ones.
- (by the way, you can't swing with 2 Progenitus because of legendary status y'know).
Power/Capacity to win: 4
Can the deck deliver the goods?
- I think so, this thing can get out of hand for the opponent if left unchecked.
Interaction/Protection: 3
How well does the deck interact and deal with other decks.
- Though the deck has some removal for creatures, there is nothing VS enchantments and artifacts, If you had put O-rings in here instead of Path, it might have scored you a bit more; but the best thing would have been to keep the Paths and add some non-creature removal.
Format/Thematic: 0
1 point for any format adherence; 1 point for incorporation of theme/flavour
- nope.
Total: 19.5
- Solid 1st-time entry. Welcome to the contest, and good luck for the rest of the season!
9 Plains
9 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Island
Land Search (and defense)
4 Solemn Simulacrum
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
Defense
3 Junktroller
4 Emblazoned Golem
2 Walking Archive
2 Salvage Titan
2 Brass Herald
4 Glittering Wish
3 Fist of Suns
3 Composite Golem
Sweepers
2 Soulscour (short-cast with fist)
3 Hurricane (air defense)
1 Autochthon Wurm
1 Progenitus
1 Hellkite Overlord
1 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
1 Worldpurge
1 Titanic Ultimatum
1 Violent Ultimatum
1 Cruel Ultimatum
1 Szadek, Lord of Secrets
1 Angel of Despair
1 Charnelhoard Wurm
1 Blood Tyrant
1 Magister Sphinx
1 Simic Sky Swallower
1 Empyrial Archangel
Creativity/Originality: 4
How creative and original is your deck.
- Golem Tribal! I'm glad somebody made that deck, not a tribe used often so very original and fresh.
Effectiveness/Card adherence: 3.5
How well does it use the selected card?
- Effective usage when it counts, but not enough times to warrant a better score IMO, even with the Sideboard.
Synergy/Tuning: 3.5
How well do the cards combine in the deck; elegance and card selection.
- Soulscour, good find!
- Why no Darksteel Colossus? probably the only deck where it would have been on theme.
- I would have loved to have seen Bosh, Iron Golem in here for some added oommph.
- No Darksteel Forge?
Power/Capacity to win: 3.5
Can the deck deliver the goods?
- Fast defense, good beats midgame and a huge death blow that's hard to recover from, succeptible to Artifact hate and Sweepers because of non-existent recursion.
Interaction/Protection: 3.5
How well does the deck interact and deal with other decks.
- No Artifact removal.
- I would have tried to put at least 1 more Soulscour.
- A few quick solutions in the wishboard would also have helped.
Format/Thematic: 2
1 point for any format adherence; 1 point for incorporation of theme/flavour
- Golem tribal with a neat story a la Magic novels, 2 points bonus for you sir, a first this season, bravo.
Total: 20
4x Mirrodins Core
2x Glacial Chasm
2x Rupture Spire
2x Shimmering Grotto
3x Tendo Ice Bridge
3x Crosis's Catacombs
1x Vivid Crag
1x Vivid Creek
1x Vivid Grove
1x Vivid Meadow
4x Reflecting Pool
4x Merfolk Looter
4x Glen Elendra Archmage
Spells - 28
4x Fist of Suns
3x Ion Storm
3x clearwater goblet
4x Power Conduit
4x Glittering Wish
4x Pentad Prism
3x Decree of Silence
3x Crush of Wurms
1x Death Mutation
1x Yavimaya's Embrace
1x Charnelhoard Wurm
1x Phantom Nishoba
1x Vampiric Dragon
1x Empyrial Archangel
1x Kaervek the Merciless
1x Mindleech Mass
1x Terminate
1x hull breach
1x lightning helix
1x Jund Charm
1x Gilder Bairn
1x Perplex
1x Dimir Infiltrator
Creativity/Originality: 4.5
How creative and original is your deck.
- Part Rube Goldberg engine, this iteration exploits (in a kind of mad-scientist way) the known combos with Power Conduit.
Effectiveness/Card adherence: 3
How well does it use the selected card?
- Helps for Decree of Silence, Crush of Worms and a few cards in the wishboard, but more often than I would have liked, Fist was a dead draw, hence the scoring here.
Synergy/Tuning: 3.5
How well do the cards combine in the deck; elegance and card selection.
- This deck kind of drowns if it can't find the Conduits, tutors for it would have been nice :-/.
- I would have prefered Looter Il-Kor over Merfolk Looter for it's nice shadow interaction with Power Conduit.
- I liked Ion Storm; too bad you can't use it on either of your important pieces, Archmage and Decree, if it had, this deck would have been very hard to beat in this round.
- Glacial Chasm; nice with the conduit, too bad you can't remove the age counter as a response so you don't lose life at all, 2 life per turn is still OK.
Power/Capacity to win: 3.5
Can the deck deliver the goods?
- Depends how quickly you can set it up, once it is, I don't see any option for the opponent but to fold.
- Consequently, this deck needs some stalling and I don't feel there is enough of it. I would have chosen Sun Droplet over Clearwater Goblet because it's quicker and provides charge counters as well. I know the goblet brings a sunburst flavor that fits with Fist (say that 5 time quick), but it doesn't make it any more efficient. But the Goblet IS better with Glacial Chasm and does provides another kind of lock-win, but as I said it might be kind of late when you get there.
Interaction/Protection: 4
How well does the deck interact and deal with other decks.
- it's a good thing you put cheap effective answers in the wishboard, otherwise, the rating would have been lower.
- Big disruption, but as is already mentionned, comes late.
- Ion Storm, again very cool.
Format/Thematic: 1
1 point for any format adherence; 1 point for incorporation of theme/flavour
- Coolest deck name I've seen in quite a while, here's a cookie for ya...
Total: 19
- A solid entry, I just wish I could think of this deck as a Fist of Suns deck and not a Power Conduit Deck...
4x Suntouched Myr
4x Emblazoned Golem
4x Master of Etherium
3x Bringer of the Black Dawn
2x Draco
1x Copper Myr
1x Silver Myr
1x Leaden Myr
1x Gold Myr
4x Pentad Prism
4x Energy Chamber
3x Legacy Weapon
3x Fist of Suns
2x Darksteel Forge
1x Clearwater Goblet
Land (22)
4x Glimmervoid
2x Terramorphic Expanse
2x Seat of the Synod
2x Vault of Whispers
2x Great Furnace
2x Ancient Den
2x Tree of Tales
1x Crystal Quarry
1x Forest
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Island
Creativity/Originality: 4.5
How creative and original is your deck.
- Cool Sunburst deck that's not a slave to its theme, I like.
Effectiveness/Card adherence: 4
How well does it use the selected card?
- Can be used often enough, is there to bonify the strategy, not be the main attraction. Just a little more fat (like a couple of Suncrushers maybe, etc...) would have made the deck feel a little, more shall we say dedicated.
Synergy/Tuning: 4
How well do the cards combine in the deck; elegance and card selection.
- I like Energy Chamber with the Prisms.
- I don't see much in the form of card advantage and recyclability.
Power/Capacity to win: 4
Can the deck deliver the goods?
- Very efficient curve, creatures that come out bigger as the game progesses, + a lord to boost your army, me thinks so.
Interaction/Protection: 3.5
How well does the deck interact and deal with other decks.
- Legacy Weapon is nice but I would have liked to have seen more solutions here.
- Nevinyrral's Disk with the Forge!!! opportunity missed IMO.
Format/Thematic: 0
1 point for any format adherence; 1 point for incorporation of theme/flavour
- Nothing to see here.
Total: 20
Jeff Derek - 20
Morphadite2 - 20
Thunder Road - 19.5
No name Maddox - 19.5
Arc-Logger - 16
Vickek - 15
Post Affinity - 14.5
This one might end up being close...
I wanted to so bad It was one of the last cuts from the deck, in order to get a few more fatties in (I'm fairly sure I cut the Disk and included Draco). A buddy of mine runs that combo, and it is just painful beyond all reason. There's not a lot of cards that RFG an artifact fast enough to do it before he can trip the disk.
J
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)