I'm sure this has come up time and time again, but recently I found the remnants of my old Sliver deck and it got me thinking. I've tried several different styles of Sliver decks and they have always failed. So I've been looking for some advice. What do you think the best way to make a Sliver deck is?
The problems I've always had are as follows:
-Mana Base (obviously. You could give me a playset of Reflecting Pool and every Shockland and I would still fail at making the mana base. The more colors I add, the harder it is for me to judge how many sources of each color I should use.
-Size. No matter how hard I try, I always seem to end up going a few cards over 60, and even when I do that, I usually find that I have around 10 or less spots to devote to mana-fixing (Ala cards like Rampant Growth and Fertile Ground), removal and draw. The lack of removal always ends up killing me, because my opponent will usually just pick off my creatures one by one and overrun me with their superior creatures unopposed.
-Redundancy. The thing that always kills me about Slivers is when I have say, a Winged Sliver in play and two more in hand, desperately wishing they were any other sliver (Except Metallic Sliver!)
Do you think it's better to make a Sliver deck where you go over 60 cards and just load it full of multiple copies of slivers and removal? Or would a 'Toolbox' design where you run maybe 1-2 copies of all relevant slivers, along with 4x Homing Sliver and a few Sliver Overlords to search them out? This is what I tried last time, but it's risky because if they kill one of your key slivers it could really ruin your strategy since you don't have a backup, though it does free up more deck room for other cards.
So what do you guys think? What is the best style Sliver deck to run? What are some good cards for Sliver decks? What Sliver cards do you think are the best and should be in every deck? Keep in mind I'm wanting this deck to be 5 colors.
The Slivers I'm looking at for my deck are as follows:
I go for the REALLY speedy approach... Basically, all of the lands with the exception of one produce RGBUW, so there's no need to worry about ever not having the right colour of mana. The overall strategy is to overrun opponents and counter any major threats. A combination of Crystalline Sliver (*THE* staple sliver) and Counterspell are a nail in the coffin. If worse comes to worse you get hit with ***/Damnation/Rout/Extinction/etc. you have recovery options (ie. Franetic Sliver and Bidding in the sideboard).
I've excluded many options including Toxin Sliver and Sliver Overlord because they are, in my opinion, redundant and inferior choices, at least in the context of my build. Toxin Sliver has a REALLY high CC for a marginal effect considering that you can make your slivers (basically) unblockable for the same CC. Sliver Overlord is, in my opinion, inferior to Sliver Legion and Sliver Queen. The former is a silver bullet, especially when you have Shifting Sliver down, and the later produces tokens without the need to pay 3 to search through your deck and then pay another 2 to cast the sliver.
Summary: Screw acceleration and removal! Run counters, cheap slivers and evasion to overrun your opponents before they can get established.
I go for the REALLY speedy approach... Basically, all of the lands with the exception of one produce RGBUW, so there's no need to worry about ever not having the right colour of mana. The overall strategy is to overrun opponents and counter any major threats. A combination of Crystalline Sliver (*THE* staple sliver) and Counterspell are a nail in the coffin. If worse comes to worse you get hit with ***/Damnation/Rout/Extinction/etc. you have recovery options (ie. Franetic Sliver and Bidding in the sideboard).
I've excluded many options including Toxin Sliver and Sliver Overlord because they are, in my opinion, redundant and inferior choices, at least in the context of my build. Toxin Sliver has a REALLY high CC for a marginal effect considering that you can make your slivers (basically) unblockable for the same CC. Sliver Overlord is, in my opinion, inferior to Sliver Legion and Sliver Queen. The former is a silver bullet, especially when you have Shifting Sliver down, and the later produces tokens without the need to pay 3 to search through your deck and then pay another 2 to cast the sliver.
Summary: Screw acceleration and removal! Run counters, cheap slivers and evasion to overrun your opponents before they can get established.
Just my thoughts on it.
Interesting stuff. I had thought about Ziggarauts, but I have some City of Brasses and Gemstone Mines and hadn't even considered those (I think Undiscovered Paradise is out of my price range XD).
The thing is, I never use sideboards for casual decks, so all of my tricks have to be maindecked. I don't really have to worry about Wrath effects much, because most people I play with casually run creature-heavy decks and spot removal. I usually only run into wrath effects if they go with the theme, like Hour of Reckoning in token decks and such.
I tried running Counterspells before in my sliver deck, but I always found myself prefering spot removal, because it was usually creatures turning into threats after they hit the board (Getting bigger by enchantments or other pumping abilities) that get me the most.
Unfortunately I traded my Queen for store credit long ago, and traded Legion the moment I opened it from a pack, so I'm stuck with Overlord (I thought he made a nice 1 of).
I like Bidding. I would almost run that mainboard if tribal decks weren't so popular in casual play.
Thanks. I'll consider some of the sliver choices you used. Also thinking about picking up a premium Sliver deck.
Interesting stuff. I had thought about Ziggarauts, but I have some City of Brasses and Gemstone Mines and hadn't even considered those (I think Undiscovered Paradise is out of my price range XD).
Haha, you might rage, but Undiscovered Paradise was going for like $4.00 when I got them... So happy I did! In terms of substitutes: Mirrodin's Coreand Reflecting Pool would, in my opinion, both work just as well. Reflecting Pool is likely the better (but more expensive) choice.
I tried running Counterspells before in my sliver deck, but I always found myself prefering spot removal, because it was usually creatures turning into threats after they hit the board (Getting bigger by enchantments or other pumping abilities) that get me the most.
Eh, whichever works best for your meta. Swords to Plowshares and/or Path to Exile both work well considering the cheap CC and "removed from game" clause.
Unfortunately I traded my Queen for store credit long ago, and traded Legion the moment I opened it from a pack, so I'm stuck with Overlord (I thought he made a nice 1 of).
Ahh, all good, still a good finisher, just not as good as the other two imo. On the upshoot he can tutor for Shifting Sliver if you'd be unable to bust through and attack for the win otherwise.
Also thinking about picking up a premium Sliver deck.
Not to shoot the idea down, but the Premium Deck was, sadly, lacking a lot of key components for a 5C deck: Lack of playsets was the big issue but there was also the total absence of Sinew Sliver and lack of 5C lands aside from 2x Ziggurat. It still looks really pretty and it's GREAT if you're nostalgic for slivers, but if you're just starting to build up I'd recommend going the route of singles.
Might sound a bit crazy, but why not do a highlander-style sliver deck? You yourself even said that you held redundant creatures in hand, wishing they were others. If you need flying that badly, why not try Winged Sliver and Pulmonic Sliver. You'd be able to include more of your favorites this way, and they'd be able to help each other out with more diverse abilities. Just a thought.
I made a 100-card singleton Sliver deck. It was 5 color, and used all the duals and obelisks and other mana fixers I could lay my hands on. It pretty much rocked, and always found different ways to win. Frankly it competed easily with 60 card constructed decks.
Haha, you might rage, but Undiscovered Paradise was going for like $4.00 when I got them... So happy I did! In terms of substitutes: Mirrodin's Coreand Reflecting Pool would, in my opinion, both work just as well. Reflecting Pool is likely the better (but more expensive) choice.
I think I'll have to go with some more risky lands. I mostly play the very expensive T2 format, so most of my Magic money goes towards those decks. I have a single Pool, but with them still being around $7, it's not a card I want to try to pick up as useful as it would be.
Eh, whichever works best for your meta. Swords to Plowshares and/or Path to Exile both work well considering the cheap CC and "removed from game" clause.
Not to shoot the idea down, but the Premium Deck was, sadly, lacking a lot of key components for a 5C deck: Lack of playsets was the big issue but there was also the total absence of Sinew Sliver and lack of 5C lands aside from 2x Ziggurat. It still looks really pretty and it's GREAT if you're nostalgic for slivers, but if you're just starting to build up I'd recommend going the route of singles.
Yeah, the lack of doubles really disappointed me, but I thought it would be a cool project to try to get a foily Sliver deck and it would be a nice start. It has a lot of the Slivers I had planned to use and need more copies of anyway like Crystalline, Muscle, Winged, Overlord, Homing and a few other. Not to mention that it has some other cards that would make nice trade bait or go in other decks I have like Rootbound Crag and Coat of Arms.
I figured I could try to trade for the extra copies of the other ones I need.
Quote from BlueWiz7 »
Might sound a bit crazy, but why not do a highlander-style sliver deck? You yourself even said that you held redundant creatures in hand, wishing they were others. If you need flying that badly, why not try Winged Sliver and Pulmonic Sliver. You'd be able to include more of your favorites this way, and they'd be able to help each other out with more diverse abilities. Just a thought.
Does 'Highlander' mean what I said earlier about running 1-2 copies of my key slivers? I was never a fan of any of the slivers over 4cc other than the lords, Brood and Toxin Sliver, though.
You want to have a 5 color deck, but you don't want to spend money on a good mana base. Then you complain that your deck fails?
If you want to have a 5 color mana base without sacrificing speed it will be expensive!
I suggest you go with one of the following:
1) buy the expensive mana base
2) use subpar lands and accept that they will slow you down
3) play a 2- or 3- color deck
You want to have a 5 color deck, but you don't want to spend money on a good mana base. Then you complain that your deck fails?
If you want to have a 5 color mana base without sacrificing speed it will be expensive!
I suggest you go with one of the following:
1) buy the expensive mana base
2) use subpar lands and accept that they will slow you down
3) play a 2- or 3- color deck
Well it's only a casual deck. I don't get to play Casual as much as I do T2, so I can't really justify spending a lot of money on it. The manabase usually gives me problems, but it hasn't been my biggest burden. I'm not overly worried about it. The biggest problem was usually having a lack of removal or redundant draws.
The problems I've always had are as follows:
-Mana Base (obviously. You could give me a playset of Reflecting Pool and every Shockland and I would still fail at making the mana base. The more colors I add, the harder it is for me to judge how many sources of each color I should use.
-Size. No matter how hard I try, I always seem to end up going a few cards over 60, and even when I do that, I usually find that I have around 10 or less spots to devote to mana-fixing (Ala cards like Rampant Growth and Fertile Ground), removal and draw. The lack of removal always ends up killing me, because my opponent will usually just pick off my creatures one by one and overrun me with their superior creatures unopposed.
-Redundancy. The thing that always kills me about Slivers is when I have say, a Winged Sliver in play and two more in hand, desperately wishing they were any other sliver (Except Metallic Sliver!)
Do you think it's better to make a Sliver deck where you go over 60 cards and just load it full of multiple copies of slivers and removal? Or would a 'Toolbox' design where you run maybe 1-2 copies of all relevant slivers, along with 4x Homing Sliver and a few Sliver Overlords to search them out? This is what I tried last time, but it's risky because if they kill one of your key slivers it could really ruin your strategy since you don't have a backup, though it does free up more deck room for other cards.
So what do you guys think? What is the best style Sliver deck to run? What are some good cards for Sliver decks? What Sliver cards do you think are the best and should be in every deck? Keep in mind I'm wanting this deck to be 5 colors.
The Slivers I'm looking at for my deck are as follows:
-Sliver Overlord
-Homing Sliver
-Crystalline Sliver
-Muscle Sliver / Sinew Sliver
-Gemhide Sliver
-Victual Sliver
-Winged Sliver (Fliers are popular in casual decks here)
-Shifting Sliver (Dropping this guy usually wins me the game)
-Necrotic Sliver
-Ward Sliver (Might be redundant with Shifting/CrystallineSliver
-Essence Sliver (People say lifegain usually isn't good but when I play casual, it's often multiplayer, and this keeps me alive)
-Dormant Sliver (Card draw, makes me look less threatening and can be sacrificed away with other sliver effects)
-Heart Sliver (I'm usually more defensive in multiplayer games but in single player this guy seems important)
-Toxin Sliver (I love Deathtouch)
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2x Necrotic Sliver
2x Frenetic Sliver
2x Shifting Sliver
2x Sliver Legion
3x Heart Sliver
4x Gemhide Sliver
4x Sinew Sliver
4x Crystalline Sliver
4x Muscle Sliver
4x Talon Sliver
4x Winged Sliver
2x Mana Leak
4x Counterspell
Land:
1x Azorius Chancery
2x Undiscovered Paradise
4x Ancient Ziggurat
4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Thran Quarry
2x Serra's Blessing
2x Distant Meoldy
3x Patriarch's Bidding
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Naturalize
I go for the REALLY speedy approach... Basically, all of the lands with the exception of one produce RGBUW, so there's no need to worry about ever not having the right colour of mana. The overall strategy is to overrun opponents and counter any major threats. A combination of Crystalline Sliver (*THE* staple sliver) and Counterspell are a nail in the coffin. If worse comes to worse you get hit with ***/Damnation/Rout/Extinction/etc. you have recovery options (ie. Franetic Sliver and Bidding in the sideboard).
I've excluded many options including Toxin Sliver and Sliver Overlord because they are, in my opinion, redundant and inferior choices, at least in the context of my build. Toxin Sliver has a REALLY high CC for a marginal effect considering that you can make your slivers (basically) unblockable for the same CC. Sliver Overlord is, in my opinion, inferior to Sliver Legion and Sliver Queen. The former is a silver bullet, especially when you have Shifting Sliver down, and the later produces tokens without the need to pay 3 to search through your deck and then pay another 2 to cast the sliver.
Summary: Screw acceleration and removal! Run counters, cheap slivers and evasion to overrun your opponents before they can get established.
Just my thoughts on it.
Legacy:
WGMaverickWG
UMerfolkU
WStaxW
XRaffinityX
BRGoblins RB
RBUTESRBU
UGW Countersliver UGW
UB Dredge UB
U W CounterThopter U W
"Casual:"
BVampiresB
WMWCW
GElfdraziG
WWhite WeenieW
BWClericsBW
UGMadnessUG
UBPsychatogUB
GWAstral SlideGW
Interesting stuff. I had thought about Ziggarauts, but I have some City of Brasses and Gemstone Mines and hadn't even considered those (I think Undiscovered Paradise is out of my price range XD).
The thing is, I never use sideboards for casual decks, so all of my tricks have to be maindecked. I don't really have to worry about Wrath effects much, because most people I play with casually run creature-heavy decks and spot removal. I usually only run into wrath effects if they go with the theme, like Hour of Reckoning in token decks and such.
I tried running Counterspells before in my sliver deck, but I always found myself prefering spot removal, because it was usually creatures turning into threats after they hit the board (Getting bigger by enchantments or other pumping abilities) that get me the most.
Unfortunately I traded my Queen for store credit long ago, and traded Legion the moment I opened it from a pack, so I'm stuck with Overlord (I thought he made a nice 1 of).
I like Bidding. I would almost run that mainboard if tribal decks weren't so popular in casual play.
Thanks. I'll consider some of the sliver choices you used. Also thinking about picking up a premium Sliver deck.
Trades
Pucatrade with me!
(Signature courtesy of Argetlam of Hakai Studios
Haha, you might rage, but Undiscovered Paradise was going for like $4.00 when I got them... So happy I did! In terms of substitutes: Mirrodin's Coreand Reflecting Pool would, in my opinion, both work just as well. Reflecting Pool is likely the better (but more expensive) choice.
Eh, whichever works best for your meta. Swords to Plowshares and/or Path to Exile both work well considering the cheap CC and "removed from game" clause.
Ahh, all good, still a good finisher, just not as good as the other two imo. On the upshoot he can tutor for Shifting Sliver if you'd be unable to bust through and attack for the win otherwise.
Not to shoot the idea down, but the Premium Deck was, sadly, lacking a lot of key components for a 5C deck: Lack of playsets was the big issue but there was also the total absence of Sinew Sliver and lack of 5C lands aside from 2x Ziggurat. It still looks really pretty and it's GREAT if you're nostalgic for slivers, but if you're just starting to build up I'd recommend going the route of singles.
Just my two cents.
Legacy:
WGMaverickWG
UMerfolkU
WStaxW
XRaffinityX
BRGoblins RB
RBUTESRBU
UGW Countersliver UGW
UB Dredge UB
U W CounterThopter U W
"Casual:"
BVampiresB
WMWCW
GElfdraziG
WWhite WeenieW
BWClericsBW
UGMadnessUG
UBPsychatogUB
GWAstral SlideGW
I think I'll have to go with some more risky lands. I mostly play the very expensive T2 format, so most of my Magic money goes towards those decks. I have a single Pool, but with them still being around $7, it's not a card I want to try to pick up as useful as it would be.
Swords are hard to find around here and my PtE are all in T2 decks, but I do have all kinds of other fun removal like Smothers, Terminate, Putrefy, Mortify, Lightning Helix etc.
Yeah, the lack of doubles really disappointed me, but I thought it would be a cool project to try to get a foily Sliver deck and it would be a nice start. It has a lot of the Slivers I had planned to use and need more copies of anyway like Crystalline, Muscle, Winged, Overlord, Homing and a few other. Not to mention that it has some other cards that would make nice trade bait or go in other decks I have like Rootbound Crag and Coat of Arms.
I figured I could try to trade for the extra copies of the other ones I need.
Does 'Highlander' mean what I said earlier about running 1-2 copies of my key slivers? I was never a fan of any of the slivers over 4cc other than the lords, Brood and Toxin Sliver, though.
Trades
Pucatrade with me!
(Signature courtesy of Argetlam of Hakai Studios
If you want to have a 5 color mana base without sacrificing speed it will be expensive!
I suggest you go with one of the following:
1) buy the expensive mana base
2) use subpar lands and accept that they will slow you down
3) play a 2- or 3- color deck
Well it's only a casual deck. I don't get to play Casual as much as I do T2, so I can't really justify spending a lot of money on it. The manabase usually gives me problems, but it hasn't been my biggest burden. I'm not overly worried about it. The biggest problem was usually having a lack of removal or redundant draws.
Trades
Pucatrade with me!
(Signature courtesy of Argetlam of Hakai Studios
Necro - Locked
-ThatRedwood