If his meta is tourney level legacy than knights is in deep doo doo period. I just had the impression they are following legacy b/r list. I know he said his friend has a super expensive elf deck as well but I hope that's where it ends. If your meta truly is at that level avenger I would consider not making a knight deck period. If you check out the legacy forum you'll notice that there really is only a limit number of deck styles you can play and knights is not one of them. I heard about somebody that had a legacy knight deck once and tried to find it. Never was successful so if it is out there good luck.
PS. I kinsbaile
The thread is named Vial Knights. His list is posted by me on the first or second page I think. It's a rogue deck that performs decently.
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@ExImperialDragon: I disagree with having Kinsbaile Cavaliers (at least of a 4 of). A 2 of is sufficient. A 4cmc spell that doesn't win you the game outright or on the next turn (and isn't good on its own) isn't worth focusing on. Sure, it is great to have but it's not good enough to change the board position or turn the tides.
If his meta was a real casual meta, I would say Kinsbaile is fine but from his description, his meta is obviously at a tourney level (Legacy probably). Which now speed and efficiency is all that matters.
I would suggest (due to efficiency in mana costs) that Exalted is better.
I would agree, but this is casual, not the Legacy forum. Bad cards are way better in a casual environment since there's more time to develop. Besides that, when in any of my posts did I say he needed four Kinsbaile Cavaliers? I said that I run four. I don't understand how that got misconstrued.
As for him describing tourney level decks, has Treefolk top 8'ed at any of your local Legacy tournaments? Not likely.
Knights don't do well in Legacy. If his meta is Legacy-level, then he needs to ditch this deck and go after Enchantress like you mentioned before. He spoke of Treefolk several times and Elves once or twice; that doesn't scream Legacy to me, but to each his or her own.
Vial Knights isn't a deck that has top 8'ed anywhere worthy of note, either. The only place that concept exists seems to be on this site and in various isolated threads on Wizards Community and TCGPlayer. The Source has more about Soldier Stompy than Vial Knights. >_>
If you're going to do Legacy, you do it right. Enchantress is a cheap way into the format, but I'd prefer to spend the little bit extra to run blue producing duals (Merfolk, New Horizons (though it was Terrageddon when I put it together) and Enchantress are the three competitive Legacy decks I own, and they each practically play themselves.
Again, this is casual so I was giving casual advice. Kinsbaile Cavaliers ****s up Treefolk, especially when you name green with Brave the Elements. That's all I was saying.
Looks fairly solid to me. I'd -1 from your prospective Cavaliers count and -1 from any other slot in the deck to increase your lands to 20 (20 lands has you missing every other land drop from turn 3 forward, and 18 only makes it worse. Affinity plays a good portion of its spells for free and it's one of the few decks I can think of that plays 18 lands successfully). Unless your casting curve is limited to 0-2 only would I recommend using that few land. Unfortunately, that's not the case with your deck which tops out at 4 and chokes at 3. With only 18, you'll have one game in around every five where you won't draw enough lands (mulligans suck and are freebies for the opponent, mind you) and if you don't draw AEther Vial or it gets destroyed, Pithing Needle'd, etc., then you're probably screwed.
Anyway, all of that was just to explain: -2 of something to +2 land. Look into a couple Mutavault. Great land.
@Avenger Cocass: I don't mean you are playing with a defined Legacy format, but it seems to me that your metagame feels like a Legacy competitive level tourney.
I would agree, but this is casual, not the Legacy forum. Bad cards are way better in a casual environment since there's more time to develop. Besides that, when in any of my posts did I say he needed four Kinsbaile Cavaliers? I said that I run four. I don't understand how that got misconstrued.
Hmm, maybe I misread it, my apologies. But judging from how fast his opponent sets up, my concern is that he won't have that luxury of many turns to develop =(
Knights don't do well in Legacy. If his meta is Legacy-level, then he needs to ditch this deck and go after Enchantress like you mentioned before. He spoke of Treefolk several times and Elves once or twice; that doesn't scream Legacy to me, but to each his or her own.
Vial Knights isn't a deck that has top 8'ed anywhere worthy of note, either. The only place that concept exists seems to be on this site and in various isolated threads on Wizards Community and TCGPlayer. The Source has more about Soldier Stompy than Vial Knights. >_>
Well, hearing annihilator (I assume Sneaky Show/Sneak Attack) and elves (which sounds either like combo elves or aggro elves without NO-Prog), furthermore, he did describe either that the player does bring them to tourneys, so it does seem to me that the metagame is actually a Legacy Competitive level.
I suggested a Tier 2 Knights deck in the Legacy forums which seem to do decent against some metagames (not best as I would say but still good for the card pool). And since he wants to stick to the knight theme yet wanting to match his opponent in power why not try that list and tune from there?
Again, this is casual so I was giving casual advice. Kinsbaile Cavaliers ****s up Treefolk, especially when you name green with Brave the Elements. That's all I was saying.
I'm too like you trying to give casual advice but according to what I believe to be the metagame (I tend to tune my decks as much as possible to have positive MUs against my metagames) =)
I do agree with your advice (from your standpoint, it is sound) and it seems fun. Just that my deck building tendencies (for aggro) are usually where I tend to finish/outrace my opponents asap, so I tend to lean towards efficiency and speed.
Well, let's hear from Avenger on how his MUs goes against the decks in his meta and we will tune it from there (and I still think 4 O rings are too many) =)
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As soon as I get home tonnight, I'll leave a comment here on how it went against my friend. I'm still trying to figure out if I should stay with 18 lands or take out 2 cards and put 2 lands like Imperialdragon said.
Anyway, you have my deck list some post ago so you can still check it if you want!
Do you know if there is a thread somewhere where people are talking about a POSSIBLE deck made of the new knights? I don't want to talk about it here because it os not really the subject of the thread
Do you know if there is a thread somewhere where people are talking about a POSSIBLE deck made of the new knights? I don't want to talk about it here because it os not really the subject of the thread
I would go to the Rumor Mill. That's the only place to talk about spoiled cards.
Yeah, but over there they are all bossy about "OMG DON'T TALK ABOUT ANYTHING BESIDES STANDARD RAWRRRR." There's nowhere to talk about casual ideas for new cards.
With all my tests, I can clearly say that Wilt-Leaf Cavalier are totally useless. In 10 games I didn't even put then once on the field. I was keeping then in my hand because I had other things to use first.
-4 Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers
+2 Knight of the White Orchid
+1 Brave the Elements
+1 Infiltration Lens
Again, with my tests, I realise that I don't really NEED Kinsbaile Cavalier to win the game... When I have it, it's almost a win automatically but even when I don't, Student Warfare makes the job done.
I thought about this and really want your opinions about all that
-1 Kinsbaile cavalier ( i'll have 3 )
-1 Brave the Elements ( I'll have 3 )
-1 Infiltration Lens ( I'll have 3 )
+ 3 Day of Judgment this wil be good even more in multiplayer
I can already say that my meta will be FLYING. I Have nothing against that so... what could I take out to put back 4 Leonin Skyhunter so I could protect myself against flying creature?
-1 Honor of the Pure ( I'll have 3 )
-1 Knight of Meadowgrain ( I'll have 3 )
-2 Knight of the White Orchid
+4 Leonin Skyhunter
Sounds like your meta is still casual enough after all
Don't run DoJ. Run Cataclysm and use your singleton fatty to push for the win, like I said above, Flagstones of Trokair works great with cataclysm. Alternatively, run Ghostly Prison to discourage creatures with/without flying to attack you. I find blocking flying meh.
I prefer DoJ rather than Cataclysm because that way, I can keep my Aether Vial or Honor of the pure... plus, my knight exemplar makes my other knights protected from DoJ so only my opponent will lose his creatures
I prefer DoJ rather than Cataclysm because that way, I can keep my Aether Vial or Honor of the pure... plus, my knight exemplar makes my other knights protected from DoJ so only my opponent will lose his creatures
I forgot about the indestructible clause from Exemplar.
But Cataclysm allows you to keep a creature, a vial, a Honor and a land though.
DoJ might be good but you'll lose your lord.
Have to probably compare what kind of aggro you're facing. Mobs (i.e. Gobbos/Elves) or just general efficient beaters?
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If I have 2 exemplar in play, i'm all protected... But I guess losing 1 exemplar and keeping all my other creatures is good since, all my ooponent's creatures are going to die. Then it's a single strike for the win
If I have 2 exemplar in play, i'm all protected... But I guess losing 1 exemplar and keeping all my other creatures is good since, all my ooponent's creatures are going to die. Then it's a single strike for the win
DoJ should be fine then. But I would suggest Wrath of God since you might meet with regeneration in casual.
Though I do recommend if you run a playtest on the percentage draws where you cast DoJ with 1 exemplar and another with 2 exemplar in play. Not too sure how consistently you get those draws even with lenses providing CA.
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This should help people out who are addressing me in further posts: My name is Tenkai. It's not Tokobo. Thank you. =)
Only problem i've figure out so far is flying and also my friends wants to try his Blast deck against mine... I'll need to have 2 exemplar very fast or else i'm in trouble.
Only problem i've figure out so far is flying and also my friends wants to try his Blast deck against mine... I'll need to have 2 exemplar very fast or else i'm in trouble.
The thread is named Vial Knights. His list is posted by me on the first or second page I think. It's a rogue deck that performs decently.
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
The Mimeoplasm
Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Rhys the Redeemed
Merieke Ri Berit
Nekusar, the Mindrazer
Cromat Wurm Tribal
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Looking for Green friendly EDH players/groups in the Toronto area. PM me if this is you.
I'm just came back from my local shops and I bought some cards.
18 Lands ( Viva Aether Vial )
4 Honor of the Pure
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
3 Brave the Elements ( Only 2? 4? stays at 3? )
3 Infiltration Lens ( Viva CA ) ( Only 2? 4? stays at 3? )
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Student of Warfare
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
1 Kinsbaile Cavalier
3 Leonin Skyhunter ( Will be replaced by 3 Kinsbaile as soon as they arrive from Ebay! )
4 Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers
I'll be playing against my body tomorrow so I'll see what changes I'll make
Thanks for your help and don't hesitate to give your opinions on my new deck!
Should I play with Day of Judgment?
What will I remove if I want to play the new knights from Besidged?
I would agree, but this is casual, not the Legacy forum. Bad cards are way better in a casual environment since there's more time to develop. Besides that, when in any of my posts did I say he needed four Kinsbaile Cavaliers? I said that I run four. I don't understand how that got misconstrued.
As for him describing tourney level decks, has Treefolk top 8'ed at any of your local Legacy tournaments? Not likely.
Knights don't do well in Legacy. If his meta is Legacy-level, then he needs to ditch this deck and go after Enchantress like you mentioned before. He spoke of Treefolk several times and Elves once or twice; that doesn't scream Legacy to me, but to each his or her own.
Vial Knights isn't a deck that has top 8'ed anywhere worthy of note, either. The only place that concept exists seems to be on this site and in various isolated threads on Wizards Community and TCGPlayer. The Source has more about Soldier Stompy than Vial Knights. >_>
If you're going to do Legacy, you do it right. Enchantress is a cheap way into the format, but I'd prefer to spend the little bit extra to run blue producing duals (Merfolk, New Horizons (though it was Terrageddon when I put it together) and Enchantress are the three competitive Legacy decks I own, and they each practically play themselves.
Again, this is casual so I was giving casual advice. Kinsbaile Cavaliers ****s up Treefolk, especially when you name green with Brave the Elements. That's all I was saying.
Sig and Avatar drawn by me.
Anyway, all of that was just to explain: -2 of something to +2 land. Look into a couple Mutavault. Great land.
Sig and Avatar drawn by me.
Hmm, maybe I misread it, my apologies. But judging from how fast his opponent sets up, my concern is that he won't have that luxury of many turns to develop =(
But there are Legacy competitive jank aggro lists I seen around (not Top8 but surely competitive level lower Tier 2).
Well, hearing annihilator (I assume Sneaky Show/Sneak Attack) and elves (which sounds either like combo elves or aggro elves without NO-Prog), furthermore, he did describe either that the player does bring them to tourneys, so it does seem to me that the metagame is actually a Legacy Competitive level.
I suggested a Tier 2 Knights deck in the Legacy forums which seem to do decent against some metagames (not best as I would say but still good for the card pool). And since he wants to stick to the knight theme yet wanting to match his opponent in power why not try that list and tune from there?
I'm too like you trying to give casual advice but according to what I believe to be the metagame (I tend to tune my decks as much as possible to have positive MUs against my metagames) =)
I do agree with your advice (from your standpoint, it is sound) and it seems fun. Just that my deck building tendencies (for aggro) are usually where I tend to finish/outrace my opponents asap, so I tend to lean towards efficiency and speed.
Well, let's hear from Avenger on how his MUs goes against the decks in his meta and we will tune it from there (and I still think 4 O rings are too many) =)
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
Anyway, you have my deck list some post ago so you can still check it if you want!
Thanks and i'll give news later!
I would go to the Rumor Mill. That's the only place to talk about spoiled cards.
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I won 9 games out of 10 against his 3 best decks! 5 win/1 loss versus his big creatures deck ( Emrakul, etc... )
2 win/0 loss versus his treefolk deck
2 win/0 loss versus his elf deck
Your advices were very helpful and knights are great because you put lots of cards very fast, especially with Aether vial
This was my deck;
4 Honor of the Pure
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
3 Brave the Elements
3 Infiltration Lens
4 Student of Warfare
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
1 Kinsbaile Cavalier
3 Leonin Skyhunter ( Will be replaced by 3 Kinsbaile as soon as they arrive from Ebay! )
4 Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers
With all my tests, I can clearly say that Wilt-Leaf Cavalier are totally useless. In 10 games I didn't even put then once on the field. I was keeping then in my hand because I had other things to use first.
-4 Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers
+2 Knight of the White Orchid
+1 Brave the Elements
+1 Infiltration Lens
Again, with my tests, I realise that I don't really NEED Kinsbaile Cavalier to win the game... When I have it, it's almost a win automatically but even when I don't, Student Warfare makes the job done.
I thought about this and really want your opinions about all that
-1 Kinsbaile cavalier ( i'll have 3 )
-1 Brave the Elements ( I'll have 3 )
-1 Infiltration Lens ( I'll have 3 )
+ 3 Day of Judgment this wil be good even more in multiplayer
which will give me;
4 Honor of the Pure
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
3 Brave the Elements
3 Infiltration Lens
3 Day Of Judgment
4 Student of Warfare
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
3 Kinsbaile Cavalier
2 Knight of the White Orchid
I can already say that my meta will be FLYING. I Have nothing against that so... what could I take out to put back 4 Leonin Skyhunter so I could protect myself against flying creature?
-1 Honor of the Pure ( I'll have 3 )
-1 Knight of Meadowgrain ( I'll have 3 )
-2 Knight of the White Orchid
+4 Leonin Skyhunter
Don't run DoJ. Run Cataclysm and use your singleton fatty to push for the win, like I said above, Flagstones of Trokair works great with cataclysm. Alternatively, run Ghostly Prison to discourage creatures with/without flying to attack you. I find blocking flying meh.
Stuff like Icy Manipulator, Maze of Ith and Kor Haven works as well.
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
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GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
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Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
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UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
I forgot about the indestructible clause from Exemplar.
But Cataclysm allows you to keep a creature, a vial, a Honor and a land though.
DoJ might be good but you'll lose your lord.
Have to probably compare what kind of aggro you're facing. Mobs (i.e. Gobbos/Elves) or just general efficient beaters?
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
DoJ should be fine then. But I would suggest Wrath of God since you might meet with regeneration in casual.
Though I do recommend if you run a playtest on the percentage draws where you cast DoJ with 1 exemplar and another with 2 exemplar in play. Not too sure how consistently you get those draws even with lenses providing CA.
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
What MUs do you feel are lacking or could be improved on?
I would say that's the place to work on.
As of current I would suggest increasing threat density.
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
White has next no CA (within the Legacy B&R list), less Stoneforge Mystic, Knight of the White Orchid (which I feel he should run due to his lower land count) and like.
He has currently CA in form of Infiltration Lens.
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)
How about running more targetted removal (swords to plowshares/Umezawa's Jitte works too) and mana denial in form of wasteland and rishadan port?
What's a Blast deck? Storm combo?
Legacy Competitive
BUReanimatorUB
RUSneaky ShowUR(Dismantled)
GBUReanimatorUBG(Retired)
(Pre-Mystical Tutor Banning)
{RIP:July 1, 2010}
Legacy Casual
UWBag Of TricksWU
GWEnchantressWG(Budget/In construction)
WSoul SistersW
Legacy Casual - Retired
UBT.E.S. - The EGG-pic StormBU
BGrave ExistenceB
Sig by Me =)