Maybe that's even more powerful that I initially thought - does the Ripple still go off even if the spell is countered? Or can you reliably cast multiple Surging Flames on T1? I was building around just living to extract or extirpate T1 on the draw, which would mean you could afford to mulligan less aggressively, but I didn't really goldfish it.
If you gave up on mana entirely and went a straight 56/4 with FoW and SE and mulliganed aggressively, it looks like you can have the Extraction and four or more Forces a around 60% of the time, and an Extraction and two or more forces around 73%, which seems pretty backbreaking for one-trick ponies.
Surging flame might still be the backbone of the best deck, though, since you only have to successfully hard-cast one of those spirit guides to win, and FoW is running at terrible card disadvantage. Plus, an extraction of your own would deck ForceOfWill.dec right quick.
The forces are a non-issue for ripple, they don't stop the ripple triggers. the only thing that can save you is extirpating or extracting a very early surging flame. Crap. I just realized that all the ripple triggers resolve before the spells. So mindbreak trap is the only solution.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Mindbreak Trap is a kind of crappy solution, even so. Ripple is a may ability, so getting off ten Surging Flames and then stopping to wait for the Mindbreak Trap is something you could do four times very easily. Which means that Mindbreak Trap would almost definitely have to be your more-than-four-of card.
You're probably better off finding a way to force out Meddling Mage early, since at least Meddling Mage is a win condition.
EDIT: Actually, thinking about it some more, Mindbreak Trap isn't even a solution. If you Ripple into more than one Surging Flame off the same Ripple, then you'll have a Ripple trigger waiting to go off before the Surging Flames that go off of the first Ripple trigger to resolve. Meaning that either you Mindbreak Trap after the first time a ripple reveals multiple Surging Flames, and every time thereafter, or else you wait for lethal to be on the stack and Trap, in which case there will STILL be multiple Surging Flames triggers on the stack waiting to resolve and start it all over again.
Wit's End is the PERFECT answer to your opponent's Monomania however.
Just hold on to your Wit's End when they Monomania, so you can Wit's End them on your next turn!!!
I think this is fairly reminiscent of the "Jace Battles" we have seen in past standards.. My guess is we will soon witness the great Monomania-Wit's End battles.
the only way to not lose to the Dross deck is by having either Soul Spike or Nourishing Shoal and appropriate cards to cast them. (or in the mirror ht the right side of the coin.)
and Soul Spike.dec can't actually win that quickly but it can defend against Dross. Because of massive card disadvantage it can't even goldfish before turn 8.
I also like to imagine that he has a rotating torso (like a metallic graft that fuses his upper and lower body together), so he can spin all around, leveling everything within 20ft of him to rubble.
Actually, won't any hand with a singe Chancellor of the Dross beat the Dross deck on the play? You drain 3 from them, they drain 21 from you, then you're at 2, they're at 38, and you have a deck that can play spells and they don't?
More generally, to beat Dross you only have to resolve a single drain or lifegain of your own. You wouldn't even need to use Soul Spike or Nourishing Shoal as your >4. If you put both in a BG shell you wouldn't even need to mulligan all that aggressively. Remember that Dross needs all 7 in its opening hand to win, so it can't mulligan. It can't risk putting much else besides Chancellors in the deck, because if it draws them it auto-loses.
You could put Shoals and Leylines in the Surging Flame shell. Plus enchantment removal to deal with opposing Leylines? Naturalize would give you something else (besides the green spirit guide) to pitch to Shoal.
Chancellor of the Dross only beats Chancellor of the Dross.dec if you're going second. If you're going first, you'll be the active player, and your Chancellor trigger will go on the stack first and not resolve in time to save you. You need an actual spell you can cast in response to survive on the play.
Wit's End is the PERFECT answer to your opponent's Monomania however.
Just hold on to your Wit's End when they Monomania, so you can Wit's End them on your next turn!!!
I think this is fairly reminiscent of the "Jace Battles" we have seen in past standards.. My guess is we will soon witness the great Monomania-Wit's End battles.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Hoodwink is the best answer you can find for Leyline of Sanctity? That's not a good sign...(EDIT: Echoing Truth seems at least a little better)
I don't like the black Chancellor in this deck. It's a poor answer to that tactic, when you can just sideboard in more fast mana and go off in response to Dross.dec's triggers. And Chancellor just hurts your chances to go off successfully if it isn't in your opening hand.
Wit's End is the PERFECT answer to your opponent's Monomania however.
Just hold on to your Wit's End when they Monomania, so you can Wit's End them on your next turn!!!
I think this is fairly reminiscent of the "Jace Battles" we have seen in past standards.. My guess is we will soon witness the great Monomania-Wit's End battles.
I'm not sure what other "fast mana" you could be referring to... i'm already running the 12 instant-speed turn-0 free mana sources that i can think of (the 2 spirit guides and Gemstone Caverns)
Ok, sideboard explanation:
Chancellor is sided in against other chancellor decks when we can be assured of them going first, but we should have a decent match up anyway by just going off in response to their trigger with our 12 sources that come online before the first upkeep. Winning the coin flip is essential.
Leyline is our top pick in the mirror match.
Chain of Vapor clears out enemy leylines
Pyroblast can both defend our leylines from bounce and can counter mindbreak traps (both are important)
Sideboard cards to consider:
Stifle: counters the first ripple trigger or one of the chancellor triggers, either should give you the game. downside: hard to cast on upkeep
Angel's Grace: Works the same way as stifle, same problems
Mindbreak Trap: IMHO Ripple is gonna be the top-deck, so we may want strong hate against other ripple builds
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
I'm not sure what other "fast mana" you could be referring to... i'm already running the 12 instant-speed turn-0 free mana sources that i can think of (the 2 spirit guides and Gemstone Caverns)
chancellor of the tangle is just downright worse than anything else open to us. It is restricted to off-colour mana on OUR upkeep. everything else wins before then.
Also, this post nath'd some of my updates, so for sideboard changes, please flip back a page.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
The 60 Dross deck is absolutely the best possible choice. I have to admit, I lol'd hard at that. Surging Flame can just be countered and Extirpated or Surgical Extraction'd to complete uselessness.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Mindbreak Trap is a kind of crappy solution, even so. Ripple is a may ability, so getting off ten Surging Flames and then stopping to wait for the Mindbreak Trap is something you could do four times very easily. Which means that Mindbreak Trap would almost definitely have to be your more-than-four-of card.
You're probably better off finding a way to force out Meddling Mage early, since at least Meddling Mage is a win condition.
EDIT: Actually, thinking about it some more, Mindbreak Trap isn't even a solution. If you Ripple into more than one Surging Flame off the same Ripple, then you'll have a Ripple trigger waiting to go off before the Surging Flames that go off of the first Ripple trigger to resolve. Meaning that either you Mindbreak Trap after the first time a ripple reveals multiple Surging Flames, and every time thereafter, or else you wait for lethal to be on the stack and Trap, in which case there will STILL be multiple Surging Flames triggers on the stack waiting to resolve and start it all over again.
I also like to imagine that he has a rotating torso (like a metallic graft that fuses his upper and lower body together), so he can spin all around, leveling everything within 20ft of him to rubble.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Mindbreak Trap kinda sorta works, in that it will successfully get rid of all the Surging Flames on the stack. But since there's no reason to ever put more than 10 on the stack at once, and the Trap won't deal with the Ripple triggers, you'd have to have 4 Mindbreak Traps in hand to be able to use them to survive.
Wit's End is the PERFECT answer to your opponent's Monomania however.
Just hold on to your Wit's End when they Monomania, so you can Wit's End them on your next turn!!!
I think this is fairly reminiscent of the "Jace Battles" we have seen in past standards.. My guess is we will soon witness the great Monomania-Wit's End battles.
We have already covered that no surging flame hits the yard until they are all on the stack. Extirpate effects are irrelevant.
In other news, Guttural Response is looking superior to Pyroblast.
I'm a bit confused as to why you keep saying that. Countering a spell puts it directly from the stack to the graveyard where it could be Extirpated with the ripple trigger still on the stack.
The forces are a non-issue for ripple, they don't stop the ripple triggers.
the only thing that can save you is extirpating or extracting a very early surging flame.Crap. I just realized that all the ripple triggers resolve before the spells. So mindbreak trap is the only solution.Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
إن سرقت إسرق جمل
Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
You're probably better off finding a way to force out Meddling Mage early, since at least Meddling Mage is a win condition.
EDIT: Actually, thinking about it some more, Mindbreak Trap isn't even a solution. If you Ripple into more than one Surging Flame off the same Ripple, then you'll have a Ripple trigger waiting to go off before the Surging Flames that go off of the first Ripple trigger to resolve. Meaning that either you Mindbreak Trap after the first time a ripple reveals multiple Surging Flames, and every time thereafter, or else you wait for lethal to be on the stack and Trap, in which case there will STILL be multiple Surging Flames triggers on the stack waiting to resolve and start it all over again.
A little weaker version would be with Chancellor of the Spires. Since stuff like Gaea's Blessing would stop it. You could add Leyline of the Void in that case and hope you get lucky.
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
That super-tech punches even rocket slug in the nose.
EDIT - oh wow, ninja'd by like 20 minutes, good thing I can read. Oh well, hilarious.
Punk stole my thunder.
You could throw in some serum powder for variance.
So Pro I have an alpha Volcanic Island
Does anybody remember this?
The candles burn out for you; I am free.
that's ... wow. [/thread]?
oh, or you play:
15x Herbal Poultice
and Soul Spike.dec can't actually win that quickly but it can defend against Dross. Because of massive card disadvantage it can't even goldfish before turn 8.
More generally, to beat Dross you only have to resolve a single drain or lifegain of your own. You wouldn't even need to use Soul Spike or Nourishing Shoal as your >4. If you put both in a BG shell you wouldn't even need to mulligan all that aggressively. Remember that Dross needs all 7 in its opening hand to win, so it can't mulligan. It can't risk putting much else besides Chancellors in the deck, because if it draws them it auto-loses.
You could put Shoals and Leylines in the Surging Flame shell. Plus enchantment removal to deal with opposing Leylines? Naturalize would give you something else (besides the green spirit guide) to pitch to Shoal.
20 channel
20 fireball
Currently Playing
1994 Magic The Rack
Type 1: B/W Zombies
Modern: Kuldotha Red
Legacy: Pox, Oath
Vintag: 10 Proxy Merfolk
Pauper: Pestilence, UG Threshold
EDH: Karn, Roon, Sliver Queen, Xiahou Dun, Arcanus
Yes hahaha. That thread was gold.
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Taiga
4 Gemstone Caverns
2 Lotus Petal
2 Tinder Wall
4 Chancellor of the Dross
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Manamorphose
4 Hoodwink
This assumes P9 are banned.
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
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Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
I'd say that's a reasonable assumption.
Hoodwink is the best answer you can find for Leyline of Sanctity? That's not a good sign...(EDIT: Echoing Truth seems at least a little better)
I don't like the black Chancellor in this deck. It's a poor answer to that tactic, when you can just sideboard in more fast mana and go off in response to Dross.dec's triggers. And Chancellor just hurts your chances to go off successfully if it isn't in your opening hand.
Updated List
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Gemstone Caverns
3 Lotus Petal
3 Chancellor of the Dross
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Pyroblast
4 Chain of Vapor
Ok, sideboard explanation:
Chancellor is sided in against other chancellor decks when we can be assured of them going first, but we should have a decent match up anyway by just going off in response to their trigger with our 12 sources that come online before the first upkeep. Winning the coin flip is essential.
Leyline is our top pick in the mirror match.
Chain of Vapor clears out enemy leylines
Pyroblast can both defend our leylines from bounce and can counter mindbreak traps (both are important)
Sideboard cards to consider:
Stifle: counters the first ripple trigger or one of the chancellor triggers, either should give you the game. downside: hard to cast on upkeep
Angel's Grace: Works the same way as stifle, same problems
Mindbreak Trap: IMHO Ripple is gonna be the top-deck, so we may want strong hate against other ripple builds
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
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Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
Well there is also Chancellor of the Tangle.
R: Copypasta Sauce {Browbeat}
UR: Mana Cache , One Spell to Bind them All {Magnetic Theft}
UG: Epic Struggle , All-In-Poison {Metamorphosis}
UW: Planar Overlay , Decree of the Bailiff {Saprazzan Bailiff}
BG: Thought Gorger , Dark Chroma {Umbra Stalker}
UBR: Dwarven Shrine
WUBRG: Dissipation Field , Maelstrom Nexus
chancellor of the tangle is just downright worse than anything else open to us. It is restricted to off-colour mana on OUR upkeep. everything else wins before then.
Also, this post nath'd some of my updates, so for sideboard changes, please flip back a page.
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
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Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
CG
We have already covered that no surging flame hits the yard until they are all on the stack. Extirpate effects are irrelevant.
In other news, Guttural Response is looking superior to Pyroblast.
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
إن سرقت إسرق جمل
Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
So does Mindbreak Trap work? or is Leyline of Sanctity the only solution to Surging Flame?
New Tech Surgical Extraction works with Chancellor of the Spires.
NPH is dominating this format!
Ripple would just go off in response to the spires. Black chancellor's ability would still go through.
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
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Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
Mindbreak Trap kinda sorta works, in that it will successfully get rid of all the Surging Flames on the stack. But since there's no reason to ever put more than 10 on the stack at once, and the Trap won't deal with the Ripple triggers, you'd have to have 4 Mindbreak Traps in hand to be able to use them to survive.
I'm a bit confused as to why you keep saying that. Countering a spell puts it directly from the stack to the graveyard where it could be Extirpated with the ripple trigger still on the stack.
360-cube - Suggestions welcome!