i think you're missing the point of jugan, legendary, bring both back, and now you have a HUGE beater or two fairly big hitters because they go right back to the grave. thus the idea of having 2, but i see your point as well.
Keep in mind that Moldgraf doesn't target, he's at random. We have the same chances of getting some wussy guys back as our beef. If it weren't for other cards relying on the graveyard, I'd recommend running guys to trim out stuff we don't want. Also, cloning and copy effects work well with the monster, as you can stack the triggers such that the copy has a chance to return the original.
I was editing multiple times, as I compared to the previous post; the timestamp only keeps track of the last one. Been in enough headaches with gmads that I double check after finishing a post to make sure someone didn't reply while I was composing =P.
Ok, so, what direction is this deck going in exactly? It looks like we're a weird mix between aggro with the Wurm while dumping, to Grimgrin (<3), and then Jugan finisher @__@ I'm just confused
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I thought it was combo... Grimgrin doesn't really seem so great here, since there's other better sac outlets. Jugan is pretty bad too, since all of the dragons except kokopuffs are fair game. I'm also confused as to which creature we'd buff with it.
I think a good way to go with this deck is:
Abuse the lack of intervening if in the ability. (deathmantle, tortured existence)
Keep the graveyard pruned to control the randomness.
well lets combo into mill instead of combo into aggro. add in altar of dementia and jugan becomes useful, popping the +5 onto any creature left alive, then popping them for a bunch more cards milled. if we went aggro, i'd suggest RG
i know its off color now, but its the best card i find to "combo" with the key card, saffi eriksdotter, im adding 3 because we dont want to put two back in field by monstrosity trigger.
its a cool engine, monstrosity dies to a removal, in response you use saffi, saffi go to the grave, monstrosity go to battlefield, and you return two creatures at random (including saffi in that list).
i know its off color now, but its the best card i find to "combo" with the key card, saffi eriksdotter, im adding 3 because we dont want to put two back in field by monstrosity trigger.
its a cool engine, monstrosity dies to a removal, in response you use saffi, saffi go to the grave, monstrosity go to battlefield, and you return two creatures at random (including saffi in that list).
I don't think that'd work. read the monstrosity again- it says "dies, exile it, then..." meaning 1> once it hits the graveyard, since it's not optional, it's gone right away- Saffi can't save him, 3> if Saffi does somehow save the Monstrosity, no creatures get bounced because it wasn't exiled as per his ability (If A, go to B, if B, go to C). If saffi prevents him from being exiled, then he can't revive two creatures.
Voting to remove Saffi, because she's just as narrow as the riftripper and we don't want to add another color.
voting to remove the Undertaker- we have tortured existance, we don't need something that could potentially be fodder for the Wurm's death throes.
adding 2 Yavimaya Hollow to save the Moldgraf if needed, until we want him to die.
SELVAXRI! King of Misfortune & Master of Rocket Launchers "Do ya feel lucky? Because you'd better start runnin' while you still can." 375 Misfortune {+3 signed AP's} & 104 Rocket Launcher (41 AQ/ 63 Rev) Edgar Rice Burroughs, forgotten legend of the word.
so are we able to use tortured existence to get moldgraf back after he dies?
i'm not a rules guru, or a judge, but the Monstrisity's ability is contiguous- like Celestial Gatekeeper. it dies, goes poof, and the ability triggers. the Tortured Existence can't interrupt the Monstrosity's ability; Saffi's ability is a replacement effect- if the creature would die, Saffi's ability would bounce him before his ability could trigger.
we could get a judge down here to verify...
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SELVAXRI! King of Misfortune & Master of Rocket Launchers "Do ya feel lucky? Because you'd better start runnin' while you still can." 375 Misfortune {+3 signed AP's} & 104 Rocket Launcher (41 AQ/ 63 Rev) Edgar Rice Burroughs, forgotten legend of the word.
so the only point to tortured existence is to put creatures in the grave and get other ones out? for example, if moldgraf gets countered, we could get it back. but other than that, no tricks with it?
I don't think that'd work. read the monstrosity again- it says "dies, exile it, then..." meaning 1> once it hits the graveyard, since it's not optional, it's gone right away- Saffi can't save him, 3> if Saffi does somehow save the Monstrosity, no creatures get bounced because it wasn't exiled as per his ability (If A, go to B, if B, go to C). If saffi prevents him from being exiled, then he can't revive two creatures.
Voting to remove Saffi, because she's just as narrow as the riftripper and we don't want to add another color.
sad to dont agree with you because i check the forum rules before i post saffi
and she is the best card i see working with monstrosity
less math on your ABC equation, more knowledge of replacement effects
sad to dont agree with you because i check the forum rules before i post saffi
and she is the best card i see working with monstrosity
less math on your ABC equation, more knowledge of replacement effects
that's why i'm saying we get a ruling.
Tortured Existence can't be used to interrupt the Monstrosity's death throes.
but if Saffi's "replacement" effect can save the Monstrosity before it exiles itself, and still gets two creatures bounced then all is good. though, i don't think the monstrosity is a legal target for Saffi's ability once he's already enroute to the graveyard...
My "math"
A. Monstrosity dies.
B. hits the graveyards and is exiled.
C. two creatures gets bounced.
with Saffi:
A. Monstrosity is gonna die.
Ai. sac Saffi, target Monstrosity.
B. hits the graveyard and is exiled
Bi. Saffi's ability bounces the Monstrosity
C. [two creatures gets bounce?]
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SELVAXRI! King of Misfortune & Master of Rocket Launchers "Do ya feel lucky? Because you'd better start runnin' while you still can." 375 Misfortune {+3 signed AP's} & 104 Rocket Launcher (41 AQ/ 63 Rev) Edgar Rice Burroughs, forgotten legend of the word.
saffi states that the creature must make it to the grave. so if moldgraf makes it to the grave and saffi's ability can step inbetween making it to the grave and being exiled, then we get it back. however, getting two creatures is based on all of his ability resolving, including being exiled.
A. Monstrosity is gonna die.
B. sac Saffi, target Monstrosity.
C. hits the graveyard (start the triggers)
D. you choose the trigger orders (saffi first, monstrosity after)
E. saffi put monstrosity on battlefield
F. monstrosity will be exiled if he is on grave(fail, no monstrosity on grave), put two creatures on battlefield (ok, there are creatures on grave, saffi and others in that case)
works like that ^^
@edit
see, i think that is the best engine i can find, i know could be too late to change to some GW deck, but its a nice engine, also we can use eternal witness or another stuff
Restricted in Vintage (Type 1)
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Price (medium): $3.13 makes it under the $5 limit.
We're using the least stringent requirements, so it is only restricted. Paying 1U to get 2 creatures (at random) from grave to play could be interesting. Saffi Tricks can make him stay to boot.
I think we should go the route of putting threats in the GY, cheating a monstrocity, and abusing the lack of 'if' in his ability.
Shame on the price limit, Sneak Attack would be brutal with the monstrosity, especially with nasty ETB triggers.
Imagine sneaking out a monstrocity, bogardan hellkite, and sundering titan, EOT sac them in order so the monster birngs the other 2 back to stay... Although I guess that makes it more of a sneak attack deck than a monstrosity deck.
Voting against: anything with black in it. We're solidly in 4 colors right now, and Saffi is the better keep.
Voting against: Boneyard Wurm, I like this guy, but unless we start dumping more stuff into the GY, we won't have him out early, and late we want to be pruning our GY and taking stuff out of it (with the monster). he just doesn't fit.
EDIT: Holistic Wisdom would be awesome in this deck. Pitch an early guy to return the monstrocity in response to his trigger.
A. Monstrosity is gonna die.
B. sac Saffi, target Monstrosity.
C. hits the graveyard (start the triggers)
D. you choose the trigger orders (saffi first, monstrosity after)
E. saffi put monstrosity on battlefield
F. monstrosity will be exiled if he is on grave(fail, no monstrosity on grave), put two creatures on battlefield (ok, there are creatures on grave, saffi and others in that case)
i am proven wrong in regards to Saffi... no harm, no foul. que sera, sera.
i still say attempting to splash some white for one lone creature, in a feeble attempt to revive one random creature, is stretching this deck thin.
i will still say, until otherwise informed, that Tortured Existence can't save the Monstrosity. It's ability would exile it before you can discard to fetch it. maybe as an alternative to Saffi No Rest for the Wicked? though, again- narrow.
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SELVAXRI! King of Misfortune & Master of Rocket Launchers "Do ya feel lucky? Because you'd better start runnin' while you still can." 375 Misfortune {+3 signed AP's} & 104 Rocket Launcher (41 AQ/ 63 Rev) Edgar Rice Burroughs, forgotten legend of the word.
all we need to play saffi is some land that can produce white. we could use shimmering grotto, rupture spire, etc anything that allows us to get a single white mana when we need it. we don't need to go UGW completely. though i'm not sure what colors this should be: UG, UGW, BUG, BG, BUGW.
edit: he's legendary. we won't be casting him THAT often.
i will still say, until otherwise informed, that Tortured Existence can't save the Monstrosity. It's ability would exile it before you can discard to fetch it. maybe as an alternative to Saffi No Rest for the Wicked? though, again- narrow.
There is no substantial difference between the two in this case. Either will work as long as their abilities are activated in response to the Monstrosity's triggered ability.
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Hanging out in the EDH forums, Reincarnation would be super hot as well on the monstrosity, however we have a problem.
Looking back at the original rules, it says, no other reanimation cards are allowed. I think this would include Saffi and Reincarnation. Possibly also effects such as Cauldron of Souls or Nim Deathmantle.
Reincarnation, saffi, cauldron and deathmantle are all fine. Cards like Reanimate are not. (specifically because they all require the creature to start on the battlefield, so you need some other way to cheat it.)
Saffi works, but existence lets us pitch late guys to recast early guys and vice versa, as well as somewhat control the creatures that are actually in the graveyard. That makes the black somewhat useful.
add: 2 nim deathmantle
vote: remove boneyard wurm. we won't have enough in the grave to sustain it.
vote: remove undertaker (and it's gone)
vote: remove 1 grimgrin. legendary, and we have better sac outlet
vote: remove saffi. white isn't necessary, we can figure this out BUG
vote to remove corpse-born: too much mana, black reanimate/sacrifice focus is boring for a GMAD
vote to remove one jugan: high costed, one do the job
vote to keep saffi: nice recover out of black, sinergy with key card, open combo and fun moves
vote to remove altar: no milling focus
vote to increase beast: nice removal, can target monstrosity to enables combo/extra creatures
add 3 blasting station: saffi + monstrosity and max one creature in grave = win, extra damage/small removal
suggesting greater good/eternal witness: nice sinergy in color and with the theme, enable card advantage on green
Maybe Greater good, but we don't have many big creatures at the moment. E.Witt was already added and voted out, so i don't think she'll do well again. I think Harmonize may be better card draw out of the front gates to be honest.
Vote against anything with blue in it. We need to consolidate our colors, and blue is doing nothing for us right now. (Hilarious, I'm voting against my own card, alas). Although, looking through again, I like Flash and Mask of the Mimic. Both are very strong.
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Staffbeat you to it.
Corrected now.
Keep in mind that Moldgraf doesn't target, he's at random. We have the same chances of getting some wussy guys back as our beef. If it weren't for other cards relying on the graveyard, I'd recommend running guys to trim out stuff we don't want. Also, cloning and copy effects work well with the monster, as you can stack the triggers such that the copy has a chance to return the original.
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Ok, so, what direction is this deck going in exactly? It looks like we're a weird mix between aggro with the Wurm while dumping, to Grimgrin (<3), and then Jugan finisher @__@ I'm just confused
Done by Rivenor of Miraculous Recovery signatures!
I think a good way to go with this deck is:
Lyzolda, the Blood Witch | Maga, Traitor to Mortals | Mayael the Anima | Rafiq of the Many | Rhys the Redeemed
Sasaya, Oorochi Ascendant | Sygg, River Cutthroat | Thada Adel, Acquisitor | Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
but were mostly focusing on recursion using black, so lets go with deathmantle. i'll add it tomorrow if no one does today.
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its a cool engine, monstrosity dies to a removal, in response you use saffi, saffi go to the grave, monstrosity go to battlefield, and you return two creatures at random (including saffi in that list).
2 Grimgrin, Corpse-Born (1 vote to remove 1)
3 Saffi Eriksdotter
4 Moldgraf Monstrosity
3 Fauna Shaman
4 Shriekmaw
4 Boneyard Wurm
2 Mulldrifter
1 Undertaker
2 Jugan, the rising star (1 vote to remove 1, 1 vote to add 2)
1 Simic SkySwallower
4 Kodama's Reach
2 Mask of the Mimic
2 Beast Within
Enchantments 2
2 Tortured Existence
Artifacts 2
2 Minion Reflector
3 Altar of Dementia
24 Placeholders
Non-Land:41
Total: 65
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I don't think that'd work. read the monstrosity again- it says "dies, exile it, then..." meaning 1> once it hits the graveyard, since it's not optional, it's gone right away- Saffi can't save him, 3> if Saffi does somehow save the Monstrosity, no creatures get bounced because it wasn't exiled as per his ability (If A, go to B, if B, go to C). If saffi prevents him from being exiled, then he can't revive two creatures.
Voting to remove Saffi, because she's just as narrow as the riftripper and we don't want to add another color.
voting to remove the Undertaker- we have tortured existance, we don't need something that could potentially be fodder for the Wurm's death throes.
adding 2 Yavimaya Hollow to save the Moldgraf if needed, until we want him to die.
2 Grimgrin, Corpse-Born (1 vote to remove 1)
3 Saffi Eriksdotter (-1)
4 Moldgraf Monstrosity
3 Fauna Shaman
4 Shriekmaw
4 Boneyard Wurm
2 Mulldrifter
1 Undertaker (-1)
2 Jugan, the rising star (1 vote to remove 1, 1 vote to add 2)
1 Simic SkySwallower
4 Kodama's Reach
2 Mask of the Mimic
2 Beast Within
Enchantments 2
2 Tortured Existence
Artifacts 2
2 Minion Reflector
3 Altar of Dementia
22 Placeholders
2 Yavimaya Hollows
Non-Land:41
Total: 65
King of Misfortune & Master of Rocket Launchers
"Do ya feel lucky? Because you'd better start runnin' while you still can."
375 Misfortune {+3 signed AP's} & 104 Rocket Launcher (41 AQ/ 63 Rev)
Edgar Rice Burroughs, forgotten legend of the word.
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i'm not a rules guru, or a judge, but the Monstrisity's ability is contiguous- like Celestial Gatekeeper. it dies, goes poof, and the ability triggers. the Tortured Existence can't interrupt the Monstrosity's ability; Saffi's ability is a replacement effect- if the creature would die, Saffi's ability would bounce him before his ability could trigger.
we could get a judge down here to verify...
King of Misfortune & Master of Rocket Launchers
"Do ya feel lucky? Because you'd better start runnin' while you still can."
375 Misfortune {+3 signed AP's} & 104 Rocket Launcher (41 AQ/ 63 Rev)
Edgar Rice Burroughs, forgotten legend of the word.
clan sig by me
twitch.tv/TheBlueMuzzy
@thebluemuzzy
sad to dont agree with you because i check the forum rules before i post saffi
and she is the best card i see working with monstrosity
less math on your ABC equation, more knowledge of replacement effects
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that's why i'm saying we get a ruling.
Tortured Existence can't be used to interrupt the Monstrosity's death throes.
but if Saffi's "replacement" effect can save the Monstrosity before it exiles itself, and still gets two creatures bounced then all is good. though, i don't think the monstrosity is a legal target for Saffi's ability once he's already enroute to the graveyard...
My "math"
A. Monstrosity dies.
B. hits the graveyards and is exiled.
C. two creatures gets bounced.
with Saffi:
A. Monstrosity is gonna die.
Ai. sac Saffi, target Monstrosity.
B.
hits the graveyard and is exiledBi. Saffi's ability bounces the Monstrosity
C. [two creatures gets bounce?]
King of Misfortune & Master of Rocket Launchers
"Do ya feel lucky? Because you'd better start runnin' while you still can."
375 Misfortune {+3 signed AP's} & 104 Rocket Launcher (41 AQ/ 63 Rev)
Edgar Rice Burroughs, forgotten legend of the word.
clan sig by me
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B. sac Saffi, target Monstrosity.
C. hits the graveyard (start the triggers)
D. you choose the trigger orders (saffi first, monstrosity after)
E. saffi put monstrosity on battlefield
F. monstrosity will be exiled if he is on grave(fail, no monstrosity on grave), put two creatures on battlefield (ok, there are creatures on grave, saffi and others in that case)
works like that ^^
@edit
see, i think that is the best engine i can find, i know could be too late to change to some GW deck, but its a nice engine, also we can use eternal witness or another stuff
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Staff2 Grimgrin, Corpse-Born (1 vote to remove 1, -1)
3 Saffi Eriksdotter (-1)
4 Moldgraf Monstrosity
3 Fauna Shaman
4 Shriekmaw (-1)
4 Boneyard Wurm (-1)
2 Mulldrifter
1 Undertaker (-2)
2 Jugan, the rising star (1 vote to remove 1, 1 vote to add 2)
1 Simic SkySwallower
4 Kodama's Reach
2 Mask of the Mimic
2 Beast Within
1 Flash
Enchantments 2
2 Tortured Existence
Artifacts 2
2 Minion Reflector
3 Altar of Dementia
22 Placeholders
2 Yavimaya Hollows
Non-Land:42
Total: 66
Adding 1 Flash
Restricted in Vintage (Type 1)
Banned in Legacy (Type 1.5)
Price (medium): $3.13 makes it under the $5 limit.
We're using the least stringent requirements, so it is only restricted. Paying 1U to get 2 creatures (at random) from grave to play could be interesting. Saffi Tricks can make him stay to boot.
I think we should go the route of putting threats in the GY, cheating a monstrocity, and abusing the lack of 'if' in his ability.
Shame on the price limit, Sneak Attack would be brutal with the monstrosity, especially with nasty ETB triggers.
Imagine sneaking out a monstrocity, bogardan hellkite, and sundering titan, EOT sac them in order so the monster birngs the other 2 back to stay... Although I guess that makes it more of a sneak attack deck than a monstrosity deck.
Voting against: anything with black in it. We're solidly in 4 colors right now, and Saffi is the better keep.
Voting against: Boneyard Wurm, I like this guy, but unless we start dumping more stuff into the GY, we won't have him out early, and late we want to be pruning our GY and taking stuff out of it (with the monster). he just doesn't fit.
EDIT: Holistic Wisdom would be awesome in this deck. Pitch an early guy to return the monstrocity in response to his trigger.
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i am proven wrong in regards to Saffi... no harm, no foul. que sera, sera.
i still say attempting to splash some white for one lone creature, in a feeble attempt to revive one random creature, is stretching this deck thin.
i will still say, until otherwise informed, that Tortured Existence can't save the Monstrosity. It's ability would exile it before you can discard to fetch it. maybe as an alternative to Saffi No Rest for the Wicked? though, again- narrow.
King of Misfortune & Master of Rocket Launchers
"Do ya feel lucky? Because you'd better start runnin' while you still can."
375 Misfortune {+3 signed AP's} & 104 Rocket Launcher (41 AQ/ 63 Rev)
Edgar Rice Burroughs, forgotten legend of the word.
edit: he's legendary. we won't be casting him THAT often.
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There is no substantial difference between the two in this case. Either will work as long as their abilities are activated in response to the Monstrosity's triggered ability.
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StaffLooking back at the original rules, it says, no other reanimation cards are allowed. I think this would include Saffi and Reincarnation. Possibly also effects such as Cauldron of Souls or Nim Deathmantle.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Saffi works, but existence lets us pitch late guys to recast early guys and vice versa, as well as somewhat control the creatures that are actually in the graveyard. That makes the black somewhat useful.
Lyzolda, the Blood Witch | Maga, Traitor to Mortals | Mayael the Anima | Rafiq of the Many | Rhys the Redeemed
Sasaya, Oorochi Ascendant | Sygg, River Cutthroat | Thada Adel, Acquisitor | Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
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vote: remove boneyard wurm. we won't have enough in the grave to sustain it.
vote: remove undertaker (and it's gone)
vote: remove 1 grimgrin. legendary, and we have better sac outlet
vote: remove saffi. white isn't necessary, we can figure this out BUG
2 Grimgrin, Corpse-Born (2 vote to remove 1, -1)
3 Saffi Eriksdotter (-2)
4 Moldgraf Monstrosity
3 Fauna Shaman
4 Shriekmaw (-1)
4 Boneyard Wurm (-2)
2 Mulldrifter
2 Jugan, the rising star (1 vote to remove 1, 1 vote to add 2)
1 Simic SkySwallower
4 Kodama's Reach
2 Mask of the Mimic
2 Beast Within
1 Flash
Enchantments 2
2 Tortured Existence
Artifacts 7
2 Minion Reflector
3 Altar of Dementia
2 nim deathmantle
22 Placeholders
2 Yavimaya Hollows
Land: 24
Non-Land:43
Total: 67
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vote to remove one jugan: high costed, one do the job
vote to keep saffi: nice recover out of black, sinergy with key card, open combo and fun moves
vote to remove altar: no milling focus
vote to increase beast: nice removal, can target monstrosity to enables combo/extra creatures
add 3 blasting station: saffi + monstrosity and max one creature in grave = win, extra damage/small removal
suggesting greater good/eternal witness: nice sinergy in color and with the theme, enable card advantage on green
3 Saffi Eriksdotter
4 Moldgraf Monstrosity
3 Fauna Shaman
4 Shriekmaw (-1)
2 Mulldrifter
2 Jugan, the rising star (2 vote to remove 1, 1 vote to add 2)
1 Simic SkySwallower
4 Kodama's Reach
4 Explosive Vegetation
2 Mask of the Mimic
2 Beast Within (1 vote to add 2)
1 Flash
Enchantments 2
2 Tortured Existence
3 Blasting Station
2 Minion Reflector
3 Altar of Dementia (-2)
2 nim deathmantle
Land 24
22 Placeholders
2 Yavimaya Hollows
Land: 24
Non-Land:44
Total: 68
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StaffVote against anything with blue in it. We need to consolidate our colors, and blue is doing nothing for us right now. (Hilarious, I'm voting against my own card, alas). Although, looking through again, I like Flash and Mask of the Mimic. Both are very strong.
3 Saffi Eriksdotter
4 Moldgraf Monstrosity
3 Fauna Shaman
4 Shriekmaw (-1)
2 Mulldrifter (-1)
2 Jugan, the rising star (2 vote to remove 1, 1 vote to add 2)
1 Simic SkySwallower (-1)
4 Kodama's Reach
4 Explosive Vegetation
2 Mask of the Mimic (-1)
2 Beast Within (1 vote to add 2)
1 Flash (-1)
Enchantments 2
2 Tortured Existence
3 Blasting Station
2 Minion Reflector
3 Altar of Dementia (-2)
2 nim deathmantle
Land 24
22 Placeholders
2 Yavimaya Hollows
Land: 24
Non-Land:44
Total: 68
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek