Looking back on it, I also think it may have been a mistake to add Living Plane. It has really poor synergy with Phyrexian Rebirth. I'm going to vote against it.
Not really, Living Plane animate all lands. We can do one massive board swipe with a Rebirth, and get a massive Construct Horror as a result.
But in regards to Biorhythm, yes- it's not as effective- giving our opponent more life. As a result, Natural Affinity would be better for life reset.
Add, tentatively, a single Spellweaver Helix. with the right set up, being able to free cast Biorhythm at the right time would be very awesome. [Channel, anyone?]
Channel is banned in legacy and for good reason. Spellweaver is pretty clunky, a primeval titan or solemn simulacrum would be better for ramp. Both work very well with recurring nightmare. I'll second the elsh norn and darien cuts, and suggest cutting the rest of the dariens. I think its redundant with symbiotic beast. Do we want Cabal Therapy as a sac outlet for veteran explorer? I'm putting in 3 solemn for this addition. I'm also voting against Citanul Hierophants not because I don't think its good, but because I don't think we're going to have enough creatures early to support it.
Im pretty sure this post counts as a double vote and as ive seen in the rules only ove vote to kick can be given for a single card in any post. Hence I do not believe you can double vote to oust darien. Hence the deck list should look as such
He wasn't clear on exactly what he was voting for, but there were two votes against both cards to cut a single copy (Darien and Elesh) and based on the total after he said he was "seconding the votes against them" it actually looks like he added 1 vote at -3, which when combined with the 2 votes at -1 cuts one copy and leaves a vote to trim the rest of them. I'm pretty sure that is allowed.
I'm not sure whether I should use the 59 or 61 card deck, but I'll go with GumgodMTG's belief that it should be fine.
As such, I'm voting to add 2 Creakwood Liege's. It makes creature tokens, and pumps our already existing tokens for beatdown. Plus, we already have heavy green and light black in our colors.
"It is better for all the world if, instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes... Three generations of imbeciles are enough."
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
my addition of Gelatinous Genesis got lost when Gumdrop "double posted." reincluding it.
I'm still waiting for an answer to my question- What are we attempting to do with the deck?
We can have fun with Darien if we decide to run a suicide-esque deck, with Fledgling Djinn/Flesh Reaver, etc and Parallel Lives.
Until that question is answered, i'm only going to vote to remove-
Voting to remove Noble Hierarch- i doubt we'll be using her Exalted ability, and with the deck appearing to be mostly GW with a hint of [mana]UB[/manu] we aught to just run the best fixer ever- Birds of Paradise or even Urborg Elf or Llanowar Dead.
I'm debating onto whether or not to keep the Simalcrum... it's a great card, but is it needed?
SELVAXRI! King of Misfortune & Master of Rocket Launchers "Do ya feel lucky? Because you'd better start runnin' while you still can." 375 Misfortune {+3 signed AP's} & 104 Rocket Launcher (41 AQ/ 63 Rev) Edgar Rice Burroughs, forgotten legend of the word.
my addition of Gelatinous Genesis got lost when Gumdrop "double posted." reincluding it.
I'm still waiting for an answer to my question- What are we attempting to do with the deck?
We can have fun with Darien if we decide to run a suicide-esque deck, with Fledgling Djinn/Flesh Reaver, etc and Parallel Lives.
Until that question is answered, i'm only going to vote to remove-
Voting to remove Noble Hierarch- i doubt we'll be using her Exalted ability, and with the deck appearing to be mostly GW with a hint of [mana]UB[/manu] we aught to just run the best fixer ever- Birds of Paradise or even Urborg Elf or Llanowar Dead.
I'm debating onto whether or not to keep the Simalcrum... it's a great card, but is it needed?
I was thinking we'd go tokens. Something like squirrels or possibly swarm elves (Priest of Titania anyone?). That didn't happen, so it's hard to really answer for the group what the focus is. I think we should just keep adding and get the 'focus' on the cutting stage.
I agree with the swap of Hierarch for birds. I'm going to vote against her and add the birds.
I think sad golem should go. Four mana for a single land ramp is not where this deck wants to be. I understand the value of the robot, but I also think we want to get to the GMAD card as quick as possible. Four mana could easily grab us two lands. Hell 3 mana could grab us 2 lands. We are in green you know...
Also I'm adding the total number of cards back to the deck. We lost it somewhere.
--Shaman of Forgotten Ways seems good in the tokens deck because it's ramp that also acts as redundancy. On the other hand, do we need six Biorhythm effects? Especially considering that the Shaman can't help pay for Phyrexian Rebirth or Biorhythm on its own.
--How are we killing Veteran Explorer other than Altar of Bone? Is four outlets like that enough? (Phyrexian Rebirth barely counts, since by that time we're at six mana anyways -- although I suppose it is a good way to make the final push to eight for Biorhythm.)
As for the overall focus, here are just some of my ideas from what I've seen from others and myself:
-Generic tokens. Elves, squirrels, what have you. Pumped by Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, Creakwood Liege, etc. Note that there are other color Lieges if we use other methods to make different colored tokens (like Darien).
-Land destruction? I dunno, I haven't seen this much. Something about Living Plane.
-Darien. Might require some changing to the deck to add, as Salvaxri mentioned, things that harm ourself like Fledgling Djinn. Note that we currently have Essence Warden added mainly for this purpose to negate any combat damage to us with Darien out (from what I can tell -- gaining life before a Biorhythm is usually pointless, since we'll just lose it again, and after one I have my doubts about how much life it can usefully gain. For someone else to decide once we get to cutting.)
-Board wipes. I really like this route -- more Phyrexian Rebirth's might be nice -- because of how it works with what we have. We could even play some normal wraths, or maybe a Divine Reckoning. I also love how they would work with Symbiotic Beast, and we've already got Elesh Norn as a mini-wrath. I see it as building around Biorhythm a bit more, but that's just IMO.
Whatever we decide, we're gonna need more ramp.
For my votes I'm adding two Divine Reckonings. It's cheaper and easier to use and cast than the Rebirth, making it more useful in its own right as board control, and following it with a Biorhythm is usually just as deadly, especially if the card we keep is Elesh Norn or Creakwood Liege. Finally, it gives us one last-ditch way to kill Veteran Explorer.
"It is better for all the world if, instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes... Three generations of imbeciles are enough."
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
--How are we killing Veteran Explorer other than Altar of Bone? Is four outlets like that enough? (Phyrexian Rebirth barely counts, since by that time we're at six mana anyways -- although I suppose it is a good way to make the final push to eight for Biorhythm.)
Have you seen Evolutionary Leap from Origins yet? Seems like a 'fixed' Survival of the fittest to me, I wonder if it's actually playable here?
Oh and we also have Recurring Nightmare.
We're also at 70 cards right now, so we should probably cut something... I don't think we're ready to move into the cutting phase just yet.
I'm going to vote out the Spellweaver Helix. I don't think it's pulling its weight considering how much mana we can generate and how few spells can actually be imprinted onto it.
I'm voting out all Living Planes. It was a good idea, but I don't think we're going into that direction.
I'm voting out Cyclonic Rift. Another great idea, unfortunately in what now seems to be an off-colour.
I'm voting out Essence Warden. It seems pretty lack-luster, as we're not getting that many tokens out and we're using Biorythm as a life reset.
I don't quite get what's with all the board wipes. If they have three creatures out and we have seven (for example), they now have three life and we swing in for lethal. This is basically what this spell was meant to do, in my opinion. End the game right there.
I don't quite get what's with all the board wipes. If they have three creatures out and we have seven (for example), they now have three life and we swing in for lethal. This is basically what this spell was meant to do, in my opinion. End the game right there.
Since I voted in half the board wipes, I'll explain Mostly, our four board wipes are here as a way to absolutely ensure we can get that unequal balance of our creatures to theirs. They've all been chosen to do a bit more than just a Wrath.
-Phyrexian Rebirth followed next turn by Biorhythm almost guarantees a win if they don't have multiple creatures in hand. I believe Living Plane may also have been added in part to work with it as well.
-Divine Reckoning is just as deadly as Rebirth if we keep one of our bigger creatures -- especially something like Elesh Norn.
Both also are good before or after Biorhythm in part because of Symbiotic Beast, which immediately gives us lots of creatures to their one or none.]
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"It is better for all the world if, instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes... Three generations of imbeciles are enough."
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
voting out- Essence Warden- cute trick but they tend to make Biorhythm moot. if we had more "self-inflicting pain" cards, then they'd ensure we wouldn't die. Cycloinc Rift- we have mass removal, splashing a fourth color just makes it that much harder. Living Plane- combo's nicely with Elesh Norn, but oods are- we'll hold them until we get Elesh Norn out. I'd rather run Natural Affinity for a Wow factor.
Voting down- Overgrown Tomb- we have the Verge to fetch any Plains/Forests we need, since the Verge can fetch duels, any of them can be Swamps as well. still two can help us get an actual swamp duel if the verge is running slow.
should we also trim a couple Verges?
whoop, thought the tomb was the GB fetchland... never mind. let's keep all four of them.
anyone object to a 8/4 Forest/Plains split or do we want a couple of Savannah/GW Duals- which we can probably do a 6/4/2 split. possbile a 5/3/2/2 split if we add Sandsteppe Citadel for more fixing.
For now, contemplating adding the Affinity or even Phyrexian Processor. for now, 2 forbidden watchtower- for some early defense that we can animate when we plan on casting Biorhythm.
SELVAXRI! King of Misfortune & Master of Rocket Launchers "Do ya feel lucky? Because you'd better start runnin' while you still can." 375 Misfortune {+3 signed AP's} & 104 Rocket Launcher (41 AQ/ 63 Rev) Edgar Rice Burroughs, forgotten legend of the word.
Hey, how does The Great Aurora look? As long as we're ramping into massively expensive spells, we could use it as green card draw, and it puts most lands into play untapped so we could then immediately cast the expensive stuff we found. Plus, it's last-ditch green removal and it only draws us more with all the tokens we're making.
Also, we need more ramp, methinks. Would Farhaven Elf work as a creature, or do we need something more explosive but non creature (Sol Ring)?
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"It is better for all the world if, instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes... Three generations of imbeciles are enough."
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
Hey, how does The Great Aurora look? As long as we're ramping into massively expensive spells, we could use it as green card draw, and it puts most lands into play untapped so we could then immediately cast the expensive stuff we found. Plus, it's last-ditch green removal and it only draws us more with all the tokens we're making.
Also, we need more ramp, methinks. Would Farhaven Elf work as a creature, or do we need something more explosive but non creature (Sol Ring)?
Not a fan of the aurora, especially in this deck. It's mostly counter-intuitive to what we want to do. Scenario A: we have Biorhythm in hand and we decide to go for board wipe, unless we have enough mana to cast the Biorhythm as the Aurora is resolving. Also, unless we also have an inexpensive creature to cast- or hidden away- we'll have no creatures as well.
Scenario B- is what? hoping to draw into a Biorhythm?
Ramping would have been nice, but it's a bit late to try to include some. and we could do better than a walking Rampant Growth.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
SELVAXRI! King of Misfortune & Master of Rocket Launchers "Do ya feel lucky? Because you'd better start runnin' while you still can." 375 Misfortune {+3 signed AP's} & 104 Rocket Launcher (41 AQ/ 63 Rev) Edgar Rice Burroughs, forgotten legend of the word.
Hey, how does The Great Aurora look? As long as we're ramping into massively expensive spells, we could use it as green card draw, and it puts most lands into play untapped so we could then immediately cast the expensive stuff we found. Plus, it's last-ditch green removal and it only draws us more with all the tokens we're making.
Also, we need more ramp, methinks. Would Farhaven Elf work as a creature, or do we need something more explosive but non creature (Sol Ring)?
Not a fan of the aurora, especially in this deck. It's mostly counter-intuitive to what we want to do. Scenario A: we have Biorhythm in hand and we decide to go for board wipe, unless we have enough mana to cast the Biorhythm as the Aurora is resolving. Also, unless we also have an inexpensive creature to cast- or hidden away- we'll have no creatures as well.
Scenario B- is what? hoping to draw into a Biorhythm?
Ramping would have been nice, but it's a bit late to try to include some. and we could do better than a walking Rampant Growth.
Fair enough about the Aurora, I didn't think it through. Is it really so late for ramping, though? Maybe not Farhaven Elf, I just picked that one because it has legs.
I'll finish voting out Cyclonic Rift for being blue, but I'd actually love a black or white version. In Garruk's Wake might be too expensive even for this deck, though.
"It is better for all the world if, instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes... Three generations of imbeciles are enough."
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
SELVAXRI! King of Misfortune & Master of Rocket Launchers "Do ya feel lucky? Because you'd better start runnin' while you still can." 375 Misfortune {+3 signed AP's} & 104 Rocket Launcher (41 AQ/ 63 Rev) Edgar Rice Burroughs, forgotten legend of the word.
I've always wanted to make Perilous Forays work. It would be pretty sick with Veteran Explorer and Solemn. Could be interesting.
In the meantime, I'll add another ramp card. I think Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury will do nicely as the "gateway" ramp to 8 mana. She has plenty of utility, as well as creating creatures that also make mana (good for getting to Biorhythm and having a higher life total). I'll add 3.
I'm also voting out Gelatinous Genesis. This thing takes too much mana and gives too little.
Seconding the cut on Gelatinous Genesis. 3 3/3's for 7 mana just isn't good enough, especially when it can't be recurred in the deck. Fixing the living plane count too. It was never cut at three votes. I'll back the cuts on noble hierarch also.
Adding four cabal therapies for early explorer sacrifice, solemn card draw, and generally being amazing.
I am, however, going to add one vote to keep Sad Robot. We're really adding more of a sac theme, and I think that keeping card draw and ramp would be good. (Someone correct me if I get the notation wrong -- do I just remove one of the @-3s?)
Also, are we supposed to have 14 Pendelhavens in the deck? (Both for the 24 vs 26 lands, and also if it's just a placeholder. I moved it to 12, someone else move it up if it was actually meant to be 14.)
"It is better for all the world if, instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes... Three generations of imbeciles are enough."
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
I am, however, going to add one vote to keep Sad Robot. We're really adding more of a sac theme, and I think that keeping card draw and ramp would be good. (Someone correct me if I get the notation wrong -- do I just remove one of the @-3s?)
Also, are we supposed to have 14 Pendelhavens in the deck? (Both for the 24 vs 26 lands, and also if it's just a placeholder. I moved it to 12, someone else move it up if it was actually meant to be 14.)
I am, however, going to add one vote to keep Sad Robot. We're really adding more of a sac theme, and I think that keeping card draw and ramp would be good. (Someone correct me if I get the notation wrong -- do I just remove one of the @-3s?)
Wait, what? There's a sac theme going? [Not sarcasm] I thought this deck was built around Biorhythm, and the collective couldn't decide to go token horde, nor the "BSOHKO" route completely- so it's a jumble of both
A "sacrifice theme" doesn't sit with the deck, as it's mostly counter-intuitive to what we want to accomplish.
Voting down Cabal Therapy- it's another one of those "too awesome to not use" cards that isn't really vital to the deck. It's like putting a Jace in every blue deck, because of the "every blue deck needs a Jace" logic.
@Gumdrop- what would either of those add to the deck? Attrition works against BioRhythm, unless we sacrifice something like the Symbiotic beast. And what does the dragon bring- it's a decent beaststick, but no evasion.
SELVAXRI! King of Misfortune & Master of Rocket Launchers "Do ya feel lucky? Because you'd better start runnin' while you still can." 375 Misfortune {+3 signed AP's} & 104 Rocket Launcher (41 AQ/ 63 Rev) Edgar Rice Burroughs, forgotten legend of the word.
Wait, what? There's a sac theme going? [Not sarcasm] I thought this deck was built around Biorhythm, and the collective couldn't decide to go token horde, nor the "BSOHKO" route completely- so it's a jumble of both
Okay, maybe not a full-on 'sac theme', but we do have
-Recurring Nightmare and Altar of Bone as sac outlets;
-Veteran Explorer and Sad Robot to benefit from being sacked;
-plus board wipes to kill them, Symbiotic Beast as something you want to die, and random tokens sitting around as sac fodder.
Mainly this is all here for the sake of Veteran Explorer, our best option for ramp. Again, I wouldn't want to add cards purely for the sake of the sacrifice, but I just thought that Sad Robot is good and even better with the framework we already have. I wouldn't add Cabal Therapy for the purpose of being a sac outlet, and as a discard spell... I mean, I'm not saying it's not excellent, and maybe it's more necessary in a more competitive build. I won't vote against for now, anyway.
Ditto for Attrition and Eternal Dragon -- we have some cards that sac things, and cards that benefit from dying, but I dunno if adding things purely for the sake of saccing is taking things too far from Biorhythm. Won't vote for or against for now.
Adding 2x City of Brass. Adding nonland cards purely to work with Darien is a waste of good card slots, but we've got plenty of space for lands, and our plan with Biorhythm leads us not to care overmuch about our life before we cast the spell (though you really don't want it after casting -- luckily, Biorhythm is also our most expensive spell, so mostly you should be able to avoid using it after casting). Might get cut later, but there you go.
"It is better for all the world if, instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes... Three generations of imbeciles are enough."
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
@Gumdrop- what would either of those add to the deck? Attrition works against BioRhythm, unless we sacrifice something like the Symbiotic beast. And what does the dragon bring- it's a decent beaststick, but no evasion.
Re: Attrition - I keep trying to think of a way to clear the opponent's board of creatures and then drop the Biorhythm for the win. That's why I wanted Cyclonic Rift in there, that's why others have suggested Plague Wind, and seems to be why we are running Phyrexian Rebirth. I was thinking it would be a sac engine that works with Veteran Explorer and Beast, while also letting us pick off the opponent's board.
Re: Eternal Dragon - I was thinking more about the return it to your hand clause, which would always ensure we could get a creature back on the board. It also fetches plains - (including dual lands) though slow, it still helps us mana fix. The evasion doesn't matter (though it does have flying), I was thinking more about the recurssion and the body. Squee might also work for that, but we aren't in red, and no one really wants to add colors (or at least that was the proposed logic behind removing the cyclonic rift). I also see that recurring nightmare immediately think of Survival. Since Survival is banned in leagcy, and the new "fixed" survival doesn't actually discard from your hand, that got me thinking about fat creatures with built in "discard this for value" and how those would play nicely with recurring nightmare. I see the ideal play like this. Turn 1 you drop explorer, turn 2 you plains cycle at opponent's eot, turn three you drop recurring nightmare, sac explorer for ramp, and get a dragon... You've put 5 lands on board by turn 3 (and dug 3 cards out of your deck), AND have a 5/5 flying dragon. Later in the game if someone wraths you get the dragon back and still can cast biorhythm. It's just an all around value card.
After typing all that out, I've convinced myself that Eternal Dragon is right for this deck. I'm adding two of them. They aren't super amazing in multiples, but it does at least cycle. I don't see myself adding anything different to this deck today, so why not. You guys can vote it out if you don't think it fits.
I'm going to vote against the Spellweaver Helix. It's a very interesting card, but I think it's trying a bit too hard. I don't see it actually being useful most of the time.
Other thoughts: Citanul Hierophants may no longer be good enough if we push the recurring nightmare, and move away from tokens/elves. Old man or Mutant Elf might actually be better. Imagine the same three turn scenario I mentioned earlier, except with the elf instead of the dragon, you're now potentially untapping on turn 4 with 8 mana available... you could byorythm turn 4. This is only useful if the opponent hasn't played creatures, but it's something to think about. You could even hard cast Elesh Norn turn 4... I don't see us cheating her out without a discard outlet or entomb, so we need to find realistic ways to ramp to get her in play.
Well, let's divide our deck by function rather than type and see what the deck actually needs (if it needs anything, for that matter). Some cards will fit into multiple categories.
Ramp: Veteran Explorer, Birds, Robot, Citanul Hierophants, Freyalise. That's 16 cards. I don't think we're going to need more ramp. 16 seems like a good number. Not to mention we have 2 Gaea's Cradle.
tokens: Symbiotic Beast, Darien, Creakwood Liege, Living Plane (sorta), Freyalise. That's 10 cards. For a deck that's trying to cast Biorhythm, this seems a bit small.
Removal\ board wipes: Elesh Norn, Rebirth, Reckoning, Freyalise. That's 9 cards. This seems fine to me.
Sacrifice-themed cards: Recurring Nightmare, Altar of Bone, Cabal Therapy. 10 cards. This might be a bit too much, in my opinion.
Other cards: Biorhythm, Eternal Dragon, Spellweaver Helix. That's 7 cards.
I do hope we cut the Helix.
I'm going to vote to cut down 2 Cabal Therapy as well. It's a good card, but we need to reduce our number of sac-themed cards, I think. GumGod, don't forget you can target yourself with Therapy to discard whatever you want. This would be a way to get Elesh norn into the grave.
Anyone have good token makers we could add? Sengir Autocrat?
Voting to cut one cabal therapy and one altar of bone, though I was thinking that attrition might be good in those slots. Not adding it now though. Dropping cabal therapies might be a tad dangerous when we're relying so heavily on late game wipes/creatures.
I don't think eternal dragon is good enough. Primeval titan would be a better high cmc ramp, and Sun titan could return veteran explorers and add to creature count. Both would be better in that slot. Voting to cut it.
tokens: Symbiotic Beast, Darien, Creakwood Liege, Living Plane (sorta), Freyalise. That's 10 cards. For a deck that's trying to cast Biorhythm, this seems a bit small.
I'm not so sure. Symbotic beast + recurring nightmare represents a huge number of tokens. Death titan might be good here as a giant creature that can win some combats while generating tokens. I feel like our number of token generators is fine, but that the quality of token generators is really lacking. I'll add two derranged hermits, though I personall think it should be a four of. I just don't want to put us too close to cutting yet.
I have to admit, I'm pretty dissapointed that living plane is being voted down. Explorer gives them more creatures with it in play, but creakwood leige and elsh norn make it extremely difficult to take advantage of those creatures.
I'm going to add a vote to cut divine reckoning. I like the card, but I think we should be able to get more one sided than that. I'll retract my vote if someone has a different compelling reason to keep it.
Just noticed the city of brass addition. That cuts into basic lands that can be searched by explorer, and has no synergy with the other non-basics. Voting to cut.
As such, I'm voting to add 2 Creakwood Liege's. It makes creature tokens, and pumps our already existing tokens for beatdown. Plus, we already have heavy green and light black in our colors.
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Solemn Simulacrum
2 Symbiotic Beast
2 Darien, King of Kjeldor (1 @ -2)
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Citanul Hierophants (1 @-2)
4 Essence Warden
2 Creakwood Liege
2 Living Plane (1 @ -1)
2 Recurring Nightmare
Artifacts 1
1 Spellweaver Helix
Sorcery (6)
4 Biorhythm
2 Phyrexian Rebirth
4 Altar of Bone
2 Cyclonic Rift
Lands (24)
18 Pendelhaven
4 Krosan Verge
2 Gaea's Cradle
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Solemn Simulacrum
2 Symbiotic Beast
2 Darien, King of Kjeldor (1 @ -2)
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Citanul Hierophants (1 @-2)
4 Essence Warden
2 Creakwood Liege
2 Living Plane (1 @ -1)
2 Recurring Nightmare
Artifacts 1
1 Spellweaver Helix
Sorcery (6)
4 Biorhythm
2 Phyrexian Rebirth
4 Altar of Bone
2 Cyclonic Rift
Lands (24)
14 Pendelhaven
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Krosan Verge
2 Gaea's Cradle
I'm still waiting for an answer to my question- What are we attempting to do with the deck?
We can have fun with Darien if we decide to run a suicide-esque deck, with Fledgling Djinn/Flesh Reaver, etc and Parallel Lives.
Until that question is answered, i'm only going to vote to remove-
Voting to remove Noble Hierarch- i doubt we'll be using her Exalted ability, and with the deck appearing to be mostly GW with a hint of [mana]UB[/manu] we aught to just run the best fixer ever- Birds of Paradise or even Urborg Elf or Llanowar Dead.
I'm debating onto whether or not to keep the Simalcrum... it's a great card, but is it needed?
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Noble Hierarch (1 @ -4)
3 Solemn Simulacrum (1 @ -3)
2 Symbiotic Beast
2 Darien, King of Kjeldor (1 @ -2)
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Citanul Hierophants (1 @-2)
4 Essence Warden
2 Creakwood Liege
2 Living Plane (1 @ -1)
2 Recurring Nightmare
Artifacts 1
1 Spellweaver Helix
Sorcery (8)
4 Biorhythm
2 Phyrexian Rebirth
2 Gelatinous Genesis
4 Altar of Bone
2 Cyclonic Rift
Lands (24)
14 Pendelhaven
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Krosan Verge
2 Gaea's Cradle
[/quote]
King of Misfortune & Master of Rocket Launchers
"Do ya feel lucky? Because you'd better start runnin' while you still can."
375 Misfortune {+3 signed AP's} & 104 Rocket Launcher (41 AQ/ 63 Rev)
Edgar Rice Burroughs, forgotten legend of the word.
I was thinking we'd go tokens. Something like squirrels or possibly swarm elves (Priest of Titania anyone?). That didn't happen, so it's hard to really answer for the group what the focus is. I think we should just keep adding and get the 'focus' on the cutting stage.
I agree with the swap of Hierarch for birds. I'm going to vote against her and add the birds.
I think sad golem should go. Four mana for a single land ramp is not where this deck wants to be. I understand the value of the robot, but I also think we want to get to the GMAD card as quick as possible. Four mana could easily grab us two lands. Hell 3 mana could grab us 2 lands. We are in green you know...
Also I'm adding the total number of cards back to the deck. We lost it somewhere.
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Noble Hierarch (2 @ -4)
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Solemn Simulacrum (2 @ -3)
2 Symbiotic Beast
2 Darien, King of Kjeldor (1 @ -2)
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Citanul Hierophants (1 @-2)
4 Essence Warden
2 Creakwood Liege
2 Living Plane (1 @ -1)
2 Recurring Nightmare
Artifacts 1
1 Spellweaver Helix
Sorcery (8)
4 Biorhythm
2 Phyrexian Rebirth
2 Gelatinous Genesis
4 Altar of Bone
2 Cyclonic Rift
Lands (24)
14 Pendelhaven
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Krosan Verge
2 Gaea's Cradle
edit: Has anyone considered Shaman of Forgotten Ways? We have Altar of Bone now, 1-2 copies of this guy could give us some redundancy.
--Shaman of Forgotten Ways seems good in the tokens deck because it's ramp that also acts as redundancy. On the other hand, do we need six Biorhythm effects? Especially considering that the Shaman can't help pay for Phyrexian Rebirth or Biorhythm on its own.
--How are we killing Veteran Explorer other than Altar of Bone? Is four outlets like that enough? (Phyrexian Rebirth barely counts, since by that time we're at six mana anyways -- although I suppose it is a good way to make the final push to eight for Biorhythm.)
As for the overall focus, here are just some of my ideas from what I've seen from others and myself:
-Generic tokens. Elves, squirrels, what have you. Pumped by Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, Creakwood Liege, etc. Note that there are other color Lieges if we use other methods to make different colored tokens (like Darien).
-Land destruction? I dunno, I haven't seen this much. Something about Living Plane.
-Darien. Might require some changing to the deck to add, as Salvaxri mentioned, things that harm ourself like Fledgling Djinn. Note that we currently have Essence Warden added mainly for this purpose to negate any combat damage to us with Darien out (from what I can tell -- gaining life before a Biorhythm is usually pointless, since we'll just lose it again, and after one I have my doubts about how much life it can usefully gain. For someone else to decide once we get to cutting.)
-Board wipes. I really like this route -- more Phyrexian Rebirth's might be nice -- because of how it works with what we have. We could even play some normal wraths, or maybe a Divine Reckoning. I also love how they would work with Symbiotic Beast, and we've already got Elesh Norn as a mini-wrath. I see it as building around Biorhythm a bit more, but that's just IMO.
Whatever we decide, we're gonna need more ramp.
For my votes I'm adding two Divine Reckonings. It's cheaper and easier to use and cast than the Rebirth, making it more useful in its own right as board control, and following it with a Biorhythm is usually just as deadly, especially if the card we keep is Elesh Norn or Creakwood Liege. Finally, it gives us one last-ditch way to kill Veteran Explorer.
Creatures (29)
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Noble Hierarch (2 @ -4)
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Solemn Simulacrum (2 @ -3)
2 Symbiotic Beast
2 Darien, King of Kjeldor (1 @ -2)
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Citanul Hierophants (1 @-2)
4 Essence Warden
2 Creakwood Liege
2 Living Plane (1 @ -1)
2 Recurring Nightmare
Artifacts 1
1 Spellweaver Helix
Sorcery (10)
4 Biorhythm
2 Phyrexian Rebirth
2 Divine Reckoning
2 Gelatinous Genesis
4 Altar of Bone
2 Cyclonic Rift
Lands (24)
14 Pendelhaven
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Krosan Verge
2 Gaea's Cradle
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
Oh and we also have Recurring Nightmare.
We're also at 70 cards right now, so we should probably cut something... I don't think we're ready to move into the cutting phase just yet.
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Noble Hierarch (2 @ -4)
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Solemn Simulacrum (2 @ -3)
2 Symbiotic Beast
2 Darien, King of Kjeldor (1 @ -2)
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Citanul Hierophants (1 @-2)
4 Essence Warden (1 @ -4)
2 Creakwood Liege
2 Living Plane (1 @ -1, 1 @ -2)
2 Recurring Nightmare
Artifacts 1
1 Spellweaver Helix (1 @ -1)
Sorcery (10)
4 Biorhythm
2 Phyrexian Rebirth
2 Divine Reckoning
2 Gelatinous Genesis
4 Altar of Bone
2 Cyclonic Rift (1 @ -2)
Lands (24)
14 Pendelhaven
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Krosan Verge
2 Gaea's Cradle
We do need to cut some cards.
I'm going to vote out the Spellweaver Helix. I don't think it's pulling its weight considering how much mana we can generate and how few spells can actually be imprinted onto it.
I'm voting out all Living Planes. It was a good idea, but I don't think we're going into that direction.
I'm voting out Cyclonic Rift. Another great idea, unfortunately in what now seems to be an off-colour.
I'm voting out Essence Warden. It seems pretty lack-luster, as we're not getting that many tokens out and we're using Biorythm as a life reset.
I don't quite get what's with all the board wipes. If they have three creatures out and we have seven (for example), they now have three life and we swing in for lethal. This is basically what this spell was meant to do, in my opinion. End the game right there.
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Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
Since I voted in half the board wipes, I'll explain Mostly, our four board wipes are here as a way to absolutely ensure we can get that unequal balance of our creatures to theirs. They've all been chosen to do a bit more than just a Wrath.
-Phyrexian Rebirth followed next turn by Biorhythm almost guarantees a win if they don't have multiple creatures in hand. I believe Living Plane may also have been added in part to work with it as well.
-Divine Reckoning is just as deadly as Rebirth if we keep one of our bigger creatures -- especially something like Elesh Norn.
Both also are good before or after Biorhythm in part because of Symbiotic Beast, which immediately gives us lots of creatures to their one or none.]
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
Essence Warden- cute trick but they tend to make Biorhythm moot. if we had more "self-inflicting pain" cards, then they'd ensure we wouldn't die.
Cycloinc Rift- we have mass removal, splashing a fourth color just makes it that much harder.
Living Plane- combo's nicely with Elesh Norn, but oods are- we'll hold them until we get Elesh Norn out. I'd rather run Natural Affinity for a Wow factor.
Voting down- Overgrown Tomb- we have the Verge to fetch any Plains/Forests we need, since the Verge can fetch duels, any of them can be Swamps as well. still two can help us get an actual swamp duel if the verge is running slow.should we also trim a couple Verges?
whoop, thought the tomb was the GB fetchland... never mind. let's keep all four of them.
anyone object to a 8/4 Forest/Plains split or do we want a couple of Savannah/GW Duals- which we can probably do a 6/4/2 split. possbile a 5/3/2/2 split if we add Sandsteppe Citadel for more fixing.
For now, contemplating adding the Affinity or even Phyrexian Processor. for now, 2 forbidden watchtower- for some early defense that we can animate when we plan on casting Biorhythm.
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Noble Hierarch (2 @ -4)
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Solemn Simulacrum (2 @ -3)
2 Symbiotic Beast
2 Darien, King of Kjeldor (1 @ -2)
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Citanul Hierophants (1 @-2)
4 Essence Warden (2 @ -4)
2 Creakwood Liege
2 Living Plane (1 @ -1, 2 @ -2)
2 Recurring Nightmare
Artifacts 1
1 Spellweaver Helix (1 @ -1)
Sorcery (10)
4 Biorhythm
2 Phyrexian Rebirth
2 Divine Reckoning
2 Gelatinous Genesis
4 Altar of Bone
2 Cyclonic Rift (2 @ -2)
Lands (24)
14 Pendelhaven
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Krosan Verge
2 Gaea's Cradle
2 Forbidden Watchtower
King of Misfortune & Master of Rocket Launchers
"Do ya feel lucky? Because you'd better start runnin' while you still can."
375 Misfortune {+3 signed AP's} & 104 Rocket Launcher (41 AQ/ 63 Rev)
Edgar Rice Burroughs, forgotten legend of the word.
Also, we need more ramp, methinks. Would Farhaven Elf work as a creature, or do we need something more explosive but non creature (Sol Ring)?
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Noble Hierarch (2 @ -4)
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Solemn Simulacrum (2 @ -3)
2 Symbiotic Beast
2 Darien, King of Kjeldor (1 @ -2)
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Citanul Hierophants (1 @-2)
2 Creakwood Liege
2 Living Plane (1 @ -1, 2 @ -2)
2 Recurring Nightmare
Artifacts 1
1 Spellweaver Helix (1 @ -1)
Sorcery (10)
4 Biorhythm
2 Phyrexian Rebirth
2 Divine Reckoning
2 Gelatinous Genesis
4 Altar of Bone
2 Cyclonic Rift (2 @ -2)
Lands (24)
14 Pendelhaven
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Krosan Verge
2 Gaea's Cradle
2 Forbidden Watchtower
Not a fan of the aurora, especially in this deck. It's mostly counter-intuitive to what we want to do. Scenario A: we have Biorhythm in hand and we decide to go for board wipe, unless we have enough mana to cast the Biorhythm as the Aurora is resolving. Also, unless we also have an inexpensive creature to cast- or hidden away- we'll have no creatures as well.
Scenario B- is what? hoping to draw into a Biorhythm?
Ramping would have been nice, but it's a bit late to try to include some. and we could do better than a walking Rampant Growth.
King of Misfortune & Master of Rocket Launchers
"Do ya feel lucky? Because you'd better start runnin' while you still can."
375 Misfortune {+3 signed AP's} & 104 Rocket Launcher (41 AQ/ 63 Rev)
Edgar Rice Burroughs, forgotten legend of the word.
Fair enough about the Aurora, I didn't think it through. Is it really so late for ramping, though? Maybe not Farhaven Elf, I just picked that one because it has legs.
I'll finish voting out Cyclonic Rift for being blue, but I'd actually love a black or white version. In Garruk's Wake might be too expensive even for this deck, though.
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Noble Hierarch (2 @ -4)
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Solemn Simulacrum (2 @ -3)
2 Symbiotic Beast
2 Darien, King of Kjeldor (1 @ -2)
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Citanul Hierophants (1 @-2)
2 Creakwood Liege
2 Living Plane (1 @ -1, 2 @ -2)
2 Recurring Nightmare
Artifacts 1
1 Spellweaver Helix (1 @ -1)
Sorcery (10)
4 Biorhythm
2 Phyrexian Rebirth
2 Divine Reckoning
2 Gelatinous Genesis
4 Altar of Bone
14 Pendelhaven
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Krosan Verge
2 Gaea's Cradle
2 Forbidding Watchtower
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
King of Misfortune & Master of Rocket Launchers
"Do ya feel lucky? Because you'd better start runnin' while you still can."
375 Misfortune {+3 signed AP's} & 104 Rocket Launcher (41 AQ/ 63 Rev)
Edgar Rice Burroughs, forgotten legend of the word.
In the meantime, I'll add another ramp card. I think Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury will do nicely as the "gateway" ramp to 8 mana. She has plenty of utility, as well as creating creatures that also make mana (good for getting to Biorhythm and having a higher life total). I'll add 3.
I'm also voting out Gelatinous Genesis. This thing takes too much mana and gives too little.
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Noble Hierarch (2 @ -4)
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Solemn Simulacrum (2 @ -3)
2 Symbiotic Beast
2 Darien, King of Kjeldor (1 @ -2)
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Citanul Hierophants (1 @-2)
2 Creakwood Liege
2 Living Plane (1 @ -1, 2 @ -2)
2 Recurring Nightmare
Artifacts 1
1 Spellweaver Helix (1 @ -1)
Sorcery (14)
4 Biorhythm
2 Phyrexian Rebirth
2 Divine Reckoning
2 Gelatinous Genesis (1 @ -2)
4 Altar of Bone
3 Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury
Lands (24)
14 Pendelhaven
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Krosan Verge
2 Gaea's Cradle
2 Forbidding Watchtower
Also, for goodness' sake, keep track of the numbers and adjust them!
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BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
Adding four cabal therapies for early explorer sacrifice, solemn card draw, and generally being amazing.
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Solemn Simulacrum (2 @ -3)
2 Symbiotic Beast
2 Darien, King of Kjeldor (1 @ -2)
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Citanul Hierophants (1 @-2)
2 Creakwood Liege
1 Living Plane (2 @ -1)
2 Recurring Nightmare
Artifacts 1
1 Spellweaver Helix (1 @ -1)
Sorcery (19)
4 Biorhythm
2 Phyrexian Rebirth
2 Divine Reckoning
2 Gelatinous Genesis (2 @ -2)
4 Altar of Bone
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury
Lands (24)
14 Pendelhaven
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Krosan Verge
2 Gaea's Cradle
2 Forbidding Watchtower
I am, however, going to add one vote to keep Sad Robot. We're really adding more of a sac theme, and I think that keeping card draw and ramp would be good. (Someone correct me if I get the notation wrong -- do I just remove one of the @-3s?)
Also, are we supposed to have 14 Pendelhavens in the deck? (Both for the 24 vs 26 lands, and also if it's just a placeholder. I moved it to 12, someone else move it up if it was actually meant to be 14.)
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Solemn Simulacrum (1 (?) @ -3)
2 Symbiotic Beast
2 Darien, King of Kjeldor (1 @ -2)
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Citanul Hierophants (1 @-2)
2 Creakwood Liege
1 Living Plane (2 @ -1)
2 Recurring Nightmare
Artifacts 1
1 Spellweaver Helix (1 @ -1)
Sorcery (16)
4 Biorhythm
2 Phyrexian Rebirth
2 Divine Reckoning
4 Altar of Bone
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury
Lands (24)
12 Pendelhaven
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Krosan Verge
2 Gaea's Cradle
2 Forbidding Watchtower
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
You're doing it right.
What do you guys think of Attrition or perhaps Eternal Dragon?
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Solemn Simulacrum (1 @ -3)
2 Symbiotic Beast
2 Darien, King of Kjeldor (1 @ -2)
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Citanul Hierophants (1 @-2)
2 Creakwood Liege
1 Living Plane (2 @ -1)
2 Recurring Nightmare
Artifacts 1
1 Spellweaver Helix (1 @ -1)
Sorcery (16)
4 Biorhythm
2 Phyrexian Rebirth
2 Divine Reckoning
4 Altar of Bone
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury
Lands (24)
12 Pendelhaven
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Krosan Verge
2 Gaea's Cradle
2 Forbidding Watchtower
Wait, what? There's a sac theme going? [Not sarcasm] I thought this deck was built around Biorhythm, and the collective couldn't decide to go token horde, nor the "BSOHKO" route completely- so it's a jumble of both
A "sacrifice theme" doesn't sit with the deck, as it's mostly counter-intuitive to what we want to accomplish.
Voting down Cabal Therapy- it's another one of those "too awesome to not use" cards that isn't really vital to the deck. It's like putting a Jace in every blue deck, because of the "every blue deck needs a Jace" logic.
@Gumdrop- what would either of those add to the deck? Attrition works against BioRhythm, unless we sacrifice something like the Symbiotic beast. And what does the dragon bring- it's a decent beaststick, but no evasion.
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Solemn Simulacrum (1 (?) @ -3)
2 Symbiotic Beast
2 Darien, King of Kjeldor (1 @ -2)
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Citanul Hierophants (1 @-2)
2 Creakwood Liege
1 Living Plane (2 @ -1)
2 Recurring Nightmare
Artifacts 1
1 Spellweaver Helix (1 @ -1)
Sorcery (16)
4 Biorhythm
2 Phyrexian Rebirth
2 Divine Reckoning
4 Altar of Bone
4 Cabal Therapy (1 @ -2)
3 Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury
Lands (24)
12 Pendelhaven
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Krosan Verge
2 Gaea's Cradle
2 Forbidding Watchtower
King of Misfortune & Master of Rocket Launchers
"Do ya feel lucky? Because you'd better start runnin' while you still can."
375 Misfortune {+3 signed AP's} & 104 Rocket Launcher (41 AQ/ 63 Rev)
Edgar Rice Burroughs, forgotten legend of the word.
Okay, maybe not a full-on 'sac theme', but we do have
-Recurring Nightmare and Altar of Bone as sac outlets;
-Veteran Explorer and Sad Robot to benefit from being sacked;
-plus board wipes to kill them, Symbiotic Beast as something you want to die, and random tokens sitting around as sac fodder.
Mainly this is all here for the sake of Veteran Explorer, our best option for ramp. Again, I wouldn't want to add cards purely for the sake of the sacrifice, but I just thought that Sad Robot is good and even better with the framework we already have. I wouldn't add Cabal Therapy for the purpose of being a sac outlet, and as a discard spell... I mean, I'm not saying it's not excellent, and maybe it's more necessary in a more competitive build. I won't vote against for now, anyway.
Ditto for Attrition and Eternal Dragon -- we have some cards that sac things, and cards that benefit from dying, but I dunno if adding things purely for the sake of saccing is taking things too far from Biorhythm. Won't vote for or against for now.
Adding 2x City of Brass. Adding nonland cards purely to work with Darien is a waste of good card slots, but we've got plenty of space for lands, and our plan with Biorhythm leads us not to care overmuch about our life before we cast the spell (though you really don't want it after casting -- luckily, Biorhythm is also our most expensive spell, so mostly you should be able to avoid using it after casting). Might get cut later, but there you go.
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Solemn Simulacrum (1 (?) @ -3)
2 Symbiotic Beast
2 Darien, King of Kjeldor (1 @ -2)
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Citanul Hierophants (1 @-2)
2 Creakwood Liege
1 Living Plane (2 @ -1)
2 Recurring Nightmare
Artifacts 1
1 Spellweaver Helix (1 @ -1)
Sorcery (16)
4 Biorhythm
2 Phyrexian Rebirth
2 Divine Reckoning
4 Altar of Bone
4 Cabal Therapy (1 @ -2)
3 Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury
Lands (24)
10 Pendelhaven
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Krosan Verge
2 Gaea's Cradle
2 City of Brass
2 Forbidding Watchtower
--Buck v Bell, 1927. This case, regarding the compulsory sterilization of inmates at mental institutions, has -- somehow -- never been overturned. Just a wee PSA for ya.
Re: Attrition - I keep trying to think of a way to clear the opponent's board of creatures and then drop the Biorhythm for the win. That's why I wanted Cyclonic Rift in there, that's why others have suggested Plague Wind, and seems to be why we are running Phyrexian Rebirth. I was thinking it would be a sac engine that works with Veteran Explorer and Beast, while also letting us pick off the opponent's board.
Re: Eternal Dragon - I was thinking more about the return it to your hand clause, which would always ensure we could get a creature back on the board. It also fetches plains - (including dual lands) though slow, it still helps us mana fix. The evasion doesn't matter (though it does have flying), I was thinking more about the recurssion and the body. Squee might also work for that, but we aren't in red, and no one really wants to add colors (or at least that was the proposed logic behind removing the cyclonic rift). I also see that recurring nightmare immediately think of Survival. Since Survival is banned in leagcy, and the new "fixed" survival doesn't actually discard from your hand, that got me thinking about fat creatures with built in "discard this for value" and how those would play nicely with recurring nightmare. I see the ideal play like this. Turn 1 you drop explorer, turn 2 you plains cycle at opponent's eot, turn three you drop recurring nightmare, sac explorer for ramp, and get a dragon... You've put 5 lands on board by turn 3 (and dug 3 cards out of your deck), AND have a 5/5 flying dragon. Later in the game if someone wraths you get the dragon back and still can cast biorhythm. It's just an all around value card.
After typing all that out, I've convinced myself that Eternal Dragon is right for this deck. I'm adding two of them. They aren't super amazing in multiples, but it does at least cycle. I don't see myself adding anything different to this deck today, so why not. You guys can vote it out if you don't think it fits.
I'm going to vote against the Spellweaver Helix. It's a very interesting card, but I think it's trying a bit too hard. I don't see it actually being useful most of the time.
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Solemn Simulacrum (1 @ -3)
2 Symbiotic Beast
2 Darien, King of Kjeldor (1 @ -2)
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Citanul Hierophants (1 @-2)
2 Creakwood Liege
2 Eternal Dragon
1 Living Plane (2 @ -1)
2 Recurring Nightmare
Artifacts 1
1 Spellweaver Helix (2 @ -1)
Sorcery (16)
4 Biorhythm
2 Phyrexian Rebirth
2 Divine Reckoning
4 Altar of Bone
4 Cabal Therapy (1 @ -2)
3 Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury
Lands (24)
10 Pendelhaven
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Krosan Verge
2 Gaea's Cradle
2 City of Brass
2 Forbidding Watchtower
Other thoughts: Citanul Hierophants may no longer be good enough if we push the recurring nightmare, and move away from tokens/elves. Old man or Mutant Elf might actually be better. Imagine the same three turn scenario I mentioned earlier, except with the elf instead of the dragon, you're now potentially untapping on turn 4 with 8 mana available... you could byorythm turn 4. This is only useful if the opponent hasn't played creatures, but it's something to think about. You could even hard cast Elesh Norn turn 4... I don't see us cheating her out without a discard outlet or entomb, so we need to find realistic ways to ramp to get her in play.
Ramp: Veteran Explorer, Birds, Robot, Citanul Hierophants, Freyalise. That's 16 cards. I don't think we're going to need more ramp. 16 seems like a good number. Not to mention we have 2 Gaea's Cradle.
tokens: Symbiotic Beast, Darien, Creakwood Liege, Living Plane (sorta), Freyalise. That's 10 cards. For a deck that's trying to cast Biorhythm, this seems a bit small.
Removal\ board wipes: Elesh Norn, Rebirth, Reckoning, Freyalise. That's 9 cards. This seems fine to me.
Sacrifice-themed cards: Recurring Nightmare, Altar of Bone, Cabal Therapy. 10 cards. This might be a bit too much, in my opinion.
Other cards: Biorhythm, Eternal Dragon, Spellweaver Helix. That's 7 cards.
I do hope we cut the Helix.
I'm going to vote to cut down 2 Cabal Therapy as well. It's a good card, but we need to reduce our number of sac-themed cards, I think. GumGod, don't forget you can target yourself with Therapy to discard whatever you want. This would be a way to get Elesh norn into the grave.
Anyone have good token makers we could add? Sengir Autocrat?
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Solemn Simulacrum (1 @ -3)
2 Symbiotic Beast
2 Darien, King of Kjeldor (1 @ -2)
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Citanul Hierophants (1 @-2)
2 Creakwood Liege
2 Eternal Dragon
1 Living Plane (2 @ -1)
2 Recurring Nightmare
Artifacts 1
1 Spellweaver Helix (2 @ -1)
Sorcery (16)
4 Biorhythm
2 Phyrexian Rebirth
2 Divine Reckoning
4 Altar of Bone
4 Cabal Therapy (2 @ -2)
3 Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury
Lands (24)
10 Pendelhaven
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Krosan Verge
2 Gaea's Cradle
2 City of Brass
2 Forbidding Watchtower
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BRSacrificial AggroBR
16The Paper Pauper Battle Bag16
EDH
BRRakdos, Lord of PingersBR
GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UB Ramses OverdarkUB
Sig by Ace5301 of Ace of Spades Studio
I don't think eternal dragon is good enough. Primeval titan would be a better high cmc ramp, and Sun titan could return veteran explorers and add to creature count. Both would be better in that slot. Voting to cut it.
I'm not so sure. Symbotic beast + recurring nightmare represents a huge number of tokens. Death titan might be good here as a giant creature that can win some combats while generating tokens. I feel like our number of token generators is fine, but that the quality of token generators is really lacking. I'll add two derranged hermits, though I personall think it should be a four of. I just don't want to put us too close to cutting yet.
I have to admit, I'm pretty dissapointed that living plane is being voted down. Explorer gives them more creatures with it in play, but creakwood leige and elsh norn make it extremely difficult to take advantage of those creatures.
I'm going to add a vote to cut divine reckoning. I like the card, but I think we should be able to get more one sided than that. I'll retract my vote if someone has a different compelling reason to keep it.
Just noticed the city of brass addition. That cuts into basic lands that can be searched by explorer, and has no synergy with the other non-basics. Voting to cut.
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Solemn Simulacrum (1 @ -3)
2 Symbiotic Beast
2 Darien, King of Kjeldor (1 @ -2)
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Citanul Hierophants (1 @-2)
2 Creakwood Liege
2 Eternal Dragon (1 @ -2)
2 Deranged Hermit
1 Living Plane (2 @ -1)
2 Recurring Nightmare
Sorcery (15)
4 Biorhythm
2 Phyrexian Rebirth
2 Divine Reckoning (1 @ -1)
4 Altar of Bone (1 @ -1)
3 Cabal Therapy (2 @ -1)
Planeswalkers (3)
3 Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury
10 Pendelhaven
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Krosan Verge
2 Gaea's Cradle
2 City of Brass (1 @ -2)
2 Forbidding Watchtower