Hello, first post here, glad I found this forum!
Me and some of my friends are planning to "return" to MTG for the first time since Kamigawa block, for some it'll be the first time with Magic.
We would like to try playing friendly multiplayer (4-6 players) games using leftovers from the old days and perhaps some proxies - just to raise a new excitement for this game, try some formulas unavailable to us in the past, etc. We are not agreed on format as of yet, but it would be close to Legacy, I'm sure. We were playing as kids in the 1998-2004 era, roughly.
Now, can you please give me some advice on building a Blue deck? Let me share some initial thoughts/ideas:
I always liked Blue decks filled with cantrips, card draw, counterspells; if I could, I would love to build a deck without creatures or with minimal amount, some control/combo type,
if I were a Pro player back in the day, I would try Academy, High Tide or Trix decks - for me this is the most rewarding and fun way to play,
on the other hand, I don't want my friends to leave after one game, watching me comboing for 10+ minutes each turn,
it doesn't have to be mono Blue, as long as other colors fit the theme of quick instants/sorceries and don't introduce too many creatures/permaments.
Where should I go from here? Are cantrips decks viable in Multiplayer? How to create a deck viable and fun to play with friends - competetive, but not OP? I'm looking for flexible decks with some of the mechanics mentioned earlier. Thanks in advance, appreciate any input.
Cantrips and card draw are still extremely degenerate in multiplayer. They bring consistency and resilience to your builds which are always relevant and they always provide significant value for their cost whereas most other 1-2 CMC spells do not. Moreover, cards liks Mystic Remora (read the Oracle text, not the printed text), Rhystic Study and Manifold Insights become categorically absurd and provide obscene quantities of card advantage. Permission is also extremely valuable since it's an effective answer to everything and even if you're trading 1-for-1 you can lean on cards like Mystic Remora to offset the card disadvantage. The reality people are going to do "things," some of those things will "matter" and permission is still the best catch-all for dealing with "things" that "matter" regardless of the number of players involved.
For something that's a good mix of "power" and "fair" I recommend something like Rise from the TidesHigh Tide. It's not as oppressive as true combo decks but it still builds and plays the same way:
Something like this. Note that it's purposely designed to be "fair" since there's no way for it to kill your adversaries before giving them a chance to respond and react to things that you're doing. You could make it significantly more unfair if desired though.
If you have Fetchlands then Brainstorm is obviously bonkers but the card isn't great otherwise.
Kinda. This list is relatively tight and extensively tested so I don't think you'll be able to fiddle with the numbers too heavily. They weren't chosen randomly or anything, the cards have all been chosen with care and purpose.
Mystic Remora vs Rhystic Study.
Do you think this deck loses too much power with swapping 4 Remoras for Rhystics? The former looks more powerful to me, but it requires the Oracle text to use it properly. I wouldn't like to scare "new" players with remarks such as: "this card should read differently, it's twice as good actually, look it up on the internet".
If you decide to exclude Remoras I'd field something else entirely. You already have Insights at 3 CMC and you don't need 6 copies of the effect. This could be permission, more interaction, more cantrips, etc.
The issue is slots. Adding 4 counters means removing 4 of something, and there isn't much that you can safely cut. So you can shave and play around with different numbers but it's not easy finding 4 slots for more permission.
The combo.
How should I play it? If I understand correctly, Rise from the Tides is my win condition card, so I should play multiple copies in one turn - after High Tide and Turnabout?
There's no "real" combo and no requirements. Ideally you want to build up to powerful High Tide -> Turnabout -> Manifold Insights -> repeat turns where you end with giant Rise from the Tides (with Counterspell backup) but often the deck plays like a Control shell with cantrips, card draw, permission, mass removal and then a big win con. Like sometimes you'll literally cast spells for the first 3 turns then High Tide a Rise from the Tides on turn 4 to build a board, apply pressure, block attackers, etc. and then build for a bigger Rise down the road.
Oh, and when it comes to lands. Can we say, in general, that Polluted Delta or Flooded Strand are always better than basic Islands for this deck (especially with shuffling effects working with Brainstorm)?
The optimal mix is 12x Island and 6x Fetchlands.
One last thing on Mystic Remora. I'll note that it's even better than it looks in this style of deck because early on it basically reads "mill a ton of cards" which is awesome when your deck has Rise from the Tides. So keep that in mind when deciding to cut/play it.
There are other expensive cards catching my attention, i.e. Snapcaster Mage - I think this guy could work wonders with High Tide coming again from the graveyard, no? But in the same time, it potentially ruins Rise from the Tides power, so I'm not sure it'd be that great addition.
Mission Briefing is better. You don't need the body and the mill fuels your Rises. Both of these cards are great (even if they exile a card) because lategame they can buyback Rise which is your only wincon.
The only advantage of Snappy is that he's great with Engulf the Shore. Bouncing him back for addition value is stellar.
I was thinking about the mighty Cryptic Command. Would you like it in this deck? Or maybe more potent (but less versatile) counter would fit here, like Disallow?
You don't need or want expensive counterspells since your wincon is already 6 CMC. 0-2 CMC tops.
I see the potential of that card, but I'll need to talk with my group if they are on board with this ruling.
To be perfectly 100% crystal clear Remora's Oracle is the official rules. The printed text is irrelevant, just like with Sylvan Library and Hostage Taker and Invert//Invent. So this isn't house rules or "make believe" rules or anything like that. People "agreeing" to the Oracle text doesn't make much sense to me because it's asking to "agree" to play using the official rules. They don't really get a choice; they either play by the rules or acknowledge that they're employing house rules. I'm not saying that it's ideal, I wish that every card could do what the text box says, that being said they don't and so people can't use that as a cop-out when fielding cards like Invert//Invent.
Baral is bad. He doesn't work with your sixteen 1 drops nor any of the permission that you want to be playing. He also makes spot removal legitimately effective against you whereas it's completely blank otherwise. You'd also have to remove Engulf because bouncing creatures without ETB triggers is awful and you don't want those kinds of nonbos in your lists.
For additional two, I'd have to cut some draw cards - maybe limiting Merchant Scroll to two copies, or slightly reducing Manifold Insight/Engulf the Shore. The latter looks and plays fantastic, I bet, but perhaps 4 copies is an overkill.
Don't shave Insights. Trust me. Once you play with that card you'll never look back. It feels like you're cheating when you cast it in 5-6 player games.
Engulf the Shore is shavable though. Merchant Scroll can fetch it and even though High Tide is your typical search this isn't a deck that 100% relies on it. It's entirely possible to play variations of this deck that has more singletons and tutors such as Mystical Tutor and Merchant Scroll as more of a toolbox deck. Cunning Wish is also bonkers but Wishes are somewhat of a grey area in casual. They're extremely degenerate since there's no such thing as a sideboard in casual so they can literally fetch anything in your collection and that's messed-up.
Oh I totally forgot about Spellseeker. Card is bonkers in this deck. Not only does she fetch High Tide but Engulf the Shore bounces her which, in turn, enables you to fetch more High Tides and such. I haven't played this deck in a while but I've been meaning to make that addition.
It may be too 'cute,' but quicken may be a fun card to run here. It would allow you to rise from the tides EoT untap and attack immediately. It can also be nice to merchant scroll/manifold insights at instant speed. I would probably only run it if you kept scroll in the deck though.
Me and some of my friends are planning to "return" to MTG for the first time since Kamigawa block, for some it'll be the first time with Magic.
We would like to try playing friendly multiplayer (4-6 players) games using leftovers from the old days and perhaps some proxies - just to raise a new excitement for this game, try some formulas unavailable to us in the past, etc. We are not agreed on format as of yet, but it would be close to Legacy, I'm sure. We were playing as kids in the 1998-2004 era, roughly.
Now, can you please give me some advice on building a Blue deck? Let me share some initial thoughts/ideas:
Where should I go from here? Are cantrips decks viable in Multiplayer? How to create a deck viable and fun to play with friends - competetive, but not OP? I'm looking for flexible decks with some of the mechanics mentioned earlier. Thanks in advance, appreciate any input.
For something that's a good mix of "power" and "fair" I recommend something like Rise from the Tides High Tide. It's not as oppressive as true combo decks but it still builds and plays the same way:
18x Island
Spells (42)
4x Ponder
4x Preordain
4x Mystic Remora
4x High Tide
4x Counterspell
2x Snap
4x Merchant Scroll
4x Manifold Insights
4x Engulf the Shore
4x Turnabout
4x Rise from the Tides
Something like this. Note that it's purposely designed to be "fair" since there's no way for it to kill your adversaries before giving them a chance to respond and react to things that you're doing. You could make it significantly more unfair if desired though.
If you have Fetchlands then Brainstorm is obviously bonkers but the card isn't great otherwise.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Kinda. This list is relatively tight and extensively tested so I don't think you'll be able to fiddle with the numbers too heavily. They weren't chosen randomly or anything, the cards have all been chosen with care and purpose.
Yes.
If you decide to exclude Remoras I'd field something else entirely. You already have Insights at 3 CMC and you don't need 6 copies of the effect. This could be permission, more interaction, more cantrips, etc.
The deck will often want to field 8 counters depending on your meta. Force of Will is ideal in Manifold Insights decks but things like Swan Song and Flusterstorm are also fantastic.
The issue is slots. Adding 4 counters means removing 4 of something, and there isn't much that you can safely cut. So you can shave and play around with different numbers but it's not easy finding 4 slots for more permission.
There's no "real" combo and no requirements. Ideally you want to build up to powerful High Tide -> Turnabout -> Manifold Insights -> repeat turns where you end with giant Rise from the Tides (with Counterspell backup) but often the deck plays like a Control shell with cantrips, card draw, permission, mass removal and then a big win con. Like sometimes you'll literally cast spells for the first 3 turns then High Tide a Rise from the Tides on turn 4 to build a board, apply pressure, block attackers, etc. and then build for a bigger Rise down the road.
The optimal mix is 12x Island and 6x Fetchlands.
One last thing on Mystic Remora. I'll note that it's even better than it looks in this style of deck because early on it basically reads "mill a ton of cards" which is awesome when your deck has Rise from the Tides. So keep that in mind when deciding to cut/play it.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Mission Briefing is better. You don't need the body and the mill fuels your Rises. Both of these cards are great (even if they exile a card) because lategame they can buyback Rise which is your only wincon.
The only advantage of Snappy is that he's great with Engulf the Shore. Bouncing him back for addition value is stellar.
You don't need or want expensive counterspells since your wincon is already 6 CMC. 0-2 CMC tops.
Card disadvantage is insignificant when you have a 3 mana spell that draws 5 cards. Your only bottleneck is mana and FOW is free making it ideal.
To be perfectly 100% crystal clear Remora's Oracle is the official rules. The printed text is irrelevant, just like with Sylvan Library and Hostage Taker and Invert//Invent. So this isn't house rules or "make believe" rules or anything like that. People "agreeing" to the Oracle text doesn't make much sense to me because it's asking to "agree" to play using the official rules. They don't really get a choice; they either play by the rules or acknowledge that they're employing house rules. I'm not saying that it's ideal, I wish that every card could do what the text box says, that being said they don't and so people can't use that as a cop-out when fielding cards like Invert//Invent.
Baral is bad. He doesn't work with your sixteen 1 drops nor any of the permission that you want to be playing. He also makes spot removal legitimately effective against you whereas it's completely blank otherwise. You'd also have to remove Engulf because bouncing creatures without ETB triggers is awful and you don't want those kinds of nonbos in your lists.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Don't shave Insights. Trust me. Once you play with that card you'll never look back. It feels like you're cheating when you cast it in 5-6 player games.
Engulf the Shore is shavable though. Merchant Scroll can fetch it and even though High Tide is your typical search this isn't a deck that 100% relies on it. It's entirely possible to play variations of this deck that has more singletons and tutors such as Mystical Tutor and Merchant Scroll as more of a toolbox deck. Cunning Wish is also bonkers but Wishes are somewhat of a grey area in casual. They're extremely degenerate since there's no such thing as a sideboard in casual so they can literally fetch anything in your collection and that's messed-up.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold