I built a quick deck with some rag-tag stuff that I could find. I was able to use Tetzimoc, primal death to put prey counters on a few creatures and then cast it for free with Fires on the same turn.
On the next game, they feared my deck a bit more and my Fires of Invention always got countered or disenchanted. I will work on improving the deck.
My sideboard is common for all my decks so some cards in there dont make sense (like Carpet of Flowers or Constant Mists) but the rest should be useful.
Some cards are there for fun or to try how they will behave in the deck...this is still far from the final version.
I found that I need several cards with casting cost lower than 4 to make sure that I can interract with the game before turn 4. Bonecrusher Giant is a great card for this...I'm thinking of adding 1-2 more.
There are several interesting interractions that can easily happen....for example, Molten Primordial + Rite of Replication kicker on it to get every creatures of my opponents and attack with them + 5 primordials. or to use the primordial to get the strongest creatures of my opponents and then cast Barter in Blood after combat to sacrifice these creatures instead of sacrificing mine. I can discard Dimir House Guard to look for Barter in blood if I dont have it in my hand when I play primordial.
Uninspired by the lack of consistency in the boros version of Fires, I am trying to put together a Grixis shell as that is one color combination I have long wanted to play but can never seem to find a style that works for me. I have no issues running out tutors and lots of them in order for the deck to be consistent. I still feel like control is the way to build this and I am looking for ideas to flesh out the deck. Not sure if Lim-Dûl's Vault is necessary here and perhaps I should be running more removal (like the full playset of damnation)
Also, with all those tutors, seems to me that I should likely play a smart wishboard. Let's make the deck a Bolas inspired badass.
If you play with several opponents, Syphon Mind is a nice card to fetch for with your Dimir House Guard. More cards in hand means more options and it's a great card to play on the same turn as Fires of Invention to ensure that you get your 5th land.
You run a lot of tutors, why so many ? ...you will spend your time looking for options instead of actually playing cards that will make you win the game. There is also stronger cards than Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God for this deck. I would rather see him in a planeswalker-oriented deck.
I'm not a big fan of Sphinx of Lost Truth ...I tried it and it always seemed to me that I was in one of these two situations:
1) I was looking for a Fires of Invention and this card didnt help me
or
2) I had my engine going and I had stronger cards in hand that I could play.
You might need more cards that will protect you in the early game....I like Bonecrusher Giant since it allows me to cast on turn 2 and turn 3 while waiting for turn 4 to play Fires of Invention
You run a lot of tutors, why so many ? ...you will spend your time looking for options instead of actually playing cards that will make you win the game.
I disagree. Lim-Dûl's Vault is a 2-drop that all-but guarantees a turn 4 Fires of Invention so there's realistically nothing better to be casting on that turn. After all, not only does it find Fires + the lands to cast it but you can also stack your library to ensure you don't draw Fires until the turn that you're looking to cast it (to dodge discard). Dimir House Guard does the same thing on 3 CMC and, because Transmute isn't a spell, enables you to go Transmute -> Mastermind's Acquisition -> [ANY SPELL] once you have a Fires out. Between 4x DHG and 4x Mastermind's Acquisition you're drawing into 8 copies of [ANY SPELL IN THE GAME] once you have a Fires out which is nuts. Moreover, while 12x Fires of Invention may be overkill in a vacuum having this many virtual copies means that removal doesn't especially bother you. This deck struggles to play Magic without one since your spells become far too expensive so it behooves to go all-in on playing as many copies as possible.
I'll note that I play Massacre in all of my Dimir House Guard decks since it enables you to transform it into an Infest should you need some interaction on turn 3. It's a low-opportunity cost way to add some cheap interaction to the list.
If you play with several opponents, Syphon Mind is a nice card to fetch for with your Dimir House Guard. More cards in hand means more options and it's a great card to play on the same turn as Fires of Invention to ensure that you get your 5th land.
Since my meta is almost always 4 players, no more, no less, Syphon Mind is pretty much Harmonize, a fine card but not stellar. Still, fine is 3 cards and as a freebie in a tricolor deck, perhaps that is all it needs to be.
You run a lot of tutors, why so many ? ...you will spend your time looking for options instead of actually playing cards that will make you win the game. There is also stronger cards than Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God for this deck. I would rather see him in a planeswalker-oriented deck.
You aren't wrong here, admittedly I like the card and being Grixis colors blah blah blah....perhaps I play it as a singleton and just tutor for it when I am ready to try and win with it?
I'm not a big fan of Sphinx of Lost Truth ...I tried it and it always seemed to me that I was in one of these two situations:
1) I was looking for a Fires of Invention and this card didnt help me
or
2) I had my engine going and I had stronger cards in hand that I could play.
The issue with Fires of Invention decks is that you end up playing a lot of "overcosted" cards simply because with Fires out, the mana sink allows you to gain incremental value, but without it, you probably wouldn't play nearly as many of them. It's a fine balance.
Do you have some examples of cards for your second point?
You might need more cards that will protect you in the early game....I like Bonecrusher Giant since it allows me to cast on turn 2 and turn 3 while waiting for turn 4 to play Fires of Invention
Yes, my early game needs work here, which is why I was asking for ideas. I suppose I could just play the usual MBC cards to keep my opponents off balance.
I disagree. Lim-Dûl's Vault is a 2-drop that all-but guarantees a turn 4 Fires of Invention so there's realistically nothing better to be casting on that turn. After all, not only does it find Fires + the lands to cast it but you can also stack your library to ensure you don't draw Fires until the turn that you're looking to cast it (to dodge discard). Dimir House Guard does the same thing on 3 CMC and, because Transmute isn't a spell, enables you to go Transmute -> Mastermind's Acquisition -> [ANY SPELL] once you have a Fires out. Between 4x DHG and 4x Mastermind's Acquisition you're drawing into 8 copies of [ANY SPELL IN THE GAME] once you have a Fires out which is nuts. Moreover, while 12x Fires of Invention may be overkill in a vacuum having this many virtual copies means that removal doesn't especially bother you. This deck struggles to play Magic without one since your spells become far too expensive so it behooves to go all-in on playing as many copies as possible.
This was my line of thought as well. I am fine setting up draws and tutoring each game so this control deck plays the best cards and has the best shot at actually controlling the game. Control can be tricky in multiplayer, my opponents often do powerful things so I need enough sweepers, sac effects, card draw, tutors, and the win cons. Without enough of all of these things, the deck is guaranteed to fail.
I'll note that I play Massacre in all of my Dimir House Guard decks since it enables you to transform it into an Infest should you need some interaction on turn 3. It's a low-opportunity cost way to add some cheap interaction to the list.
A year ago I would have disagreed with you. My meta just didn't have enough white in it to make the card valuable. This has changed and admittedly with Fires out, the card is pretty decent.
Fae of Wishes is a legitimate 2 drop so this deck has more early game than it otherwise seems. You can and should run it out on turn 2 as a 1/4 flying blocker when needed. It's leagues better than things like Bonecrusher Giant which I view as unplayable.
Sphinx of Lost Truths does help you find Fires. Why wouldn't it? You can cast it on turn 5 and dig 3 cards for one while simultaneously putting a flying 3/5 blocker into play. You're not required to Kick it.
Godo, Bandit Warlord + Helm of the Host is the "good" win condition for the deck. Cast Fires, cast Godo, tutor + Equip, send your Token into battle, repeat until the entire table is dead. Easy turn 6 kill that only requires 2 deckslots total and that kills from a (nearly) empty board (save Fires).
Rite of Replication is a bonkers 5 drop for the deck since you can cast + kick it on turn 5 after you've stuck a Fire. Copying 5 of anything tends to be fantastic.
In terms of a decklist, assuming no Vintage cards:
Something close to this would be my staring list. I know Gemstone Caverns isn't exactly cheap but I own 4 and typically play them in all of my decks. It's also amazing with Fires which requires actual lands as opposed to generic ramp making it a functional 0 mana Time Walk. They're not required though. Brainstorm + Fetchlands can be replaced by Ponder/Preordain + No Fetchlands if you don't have any. I'd opt for Ponder over Preordain since it sees up-to 4 cards whereas Preordain only sees up-to 3 but either would work fine.
I agree that tutors are required and that Lim-Dul's Vault is a fine card for that matter, I simply think that 16 tutors (4 Vaults, 4 Fae, 4 Acquisition and 4 House Guards) is too many tutors.
As for win conditions, I played the deck yesterday, I had Fires of Invention in my opening hand so I transmuted my Dimir House Guard to get Syphon Mind. On turn 4, I played Fires and Syphon Mind. With 4 opponents, Syphon Mind gave me 4 cards. On turn 5, I played Warchief Giant and Rite of Replication + Kicker on it...I then attacked each other player with 6 5/3s for a total of 30 damage each.
Molten Primordial was in my deck until recently but I find it too expensive to play. I was hoping to play it and, in the same turn, make 5 copies of it to take control of pretty much every creature in play and attack with all of them right away to finish the game.
If you scroll up, you can find a recent decklist of the deck that I am running. I am thinking of adding some Myriad Landscape to help me get more lands when needed but I am not sure of how good a fit it would be in the deck. It's 3 colors and the land gives colorless.
Fires of Invention allows you to ignore color requirements.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I agree though that it would be hard to pay the kicker of the Rite of Replication and the upkeep of the Infernal Darkness
On the next game, they feared my deck a bit more and my Fires of Invention always got countered or disenchanted. I will work on improving the deck.
4 Ghost-Lit Warder
1 Bonecrusher Giant
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
4 Dimir House Guard
1 Clackbridge Troll
2 Warchief Giant
2 Tetzimoc, Primal Death
2 Combustible Gearhulk
2 Molten Primordial
Artifacts (3)
1 Sol Ring
2 Mind's Eye
Enchantments (4)
4 Fires of Invention
Spells (13)
1 Ancestral Vision
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Liliana's Triumph
1 Vona's Hunger
2 Syphon Mind
1 Barter in Blood
1 Mastermind's Acquisition
2 Rite of Replication
1 Decimate
1 Time Warp
1 Capital Punishment
2 Luxury Suite
2 Morphic Pool
3 Sunken Ruins
2 Cascade Bluffs
1 Crumbling Necropolis
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
4 Swamp
2 Island
4 Mountain
1 Strip Mine
1 Maze of Ith
1 Infernal Reckoning
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Mystic Remora
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Balance
1 The Elderspell
1 Winter Orb
1 Animate Dead
1 Hull Breach
1 Constant Mists
1 Shatterstorm
1 Time Spiral
1 Blasphemous Act
My sideboard is common for all my decks so some cards in there dont make sense (like Carpet of Flowers or Constant Mists) but the rest should be useful.
Some cards are there for fun or to try how they will behave in the deck...this is still far from the final version.
I found that I need several cards with casting cost lower than 4 to make sure that I can interract with the game before turn 4. Bonecrusher Giant is a great card for this...I'm thinking of adding 1-2 more.
There are several interesting interractions that can easily happen....for example, Molten Primordial + Rite of Replication kicker on it to get every creatures of my opponents and attack with them + 5 primordials. or to use the primordial to get the strongest creatures of my opponents and then cast Barter in Blood after combat to sacrifice these creatures instead of sacrificing mine. I can discard Dimir House Guard to look for Barter in blood if I dont have it in my hand when I play primordial.
Also, with all those tutors, seems to me that I should likely play a smart wishboard. Let's make the deck a Bolas inspired badass.
4 Fae of Wishes // Granted
4 Glen Elendra Archmage
4 Dimir House Guard
3 Sphinx of Lost Truths
Spells (17)
4 Lim-Dûl's Vault
4 drawn from dreams
1 Damnation
4 Mastermind's Acquisition
3 Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God
4 Fires of Invention
Land (24)
4 Blood Crypt
2 Castle Vantress
4 Crumbling Necropolis
6 Island
4 Swamp
4 Watery Grave
You run a lot of tutors, why so many ? ...you will spend your time looking for options instead of actually playing cards that will make you win the game. There is also stronger cards than Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God for this deck. I would rather see him in a planeswalker-oriented deck.
I'm not a big fan of Sphinx of Lost Truth ...I tried it and it always seemed to me that I was in one of these two situations:
1) I was looking for a Fires of Invention and this card didnt help me
or
2) I had my engine going and I had stronger cards in hand that I could play.
You might need more cards that will protect you in the early game....I like Bonecrusher Giant since it allows me to cast on turn 2 and turn 3 while waiting for turn 4 to play Fires of Invention
I disagree. Lim-Dûl's Vault is a 2-drop that all-but guarantees a turn 4 Fires of Invention so there's realistically nothing better to be casting on that turn. After all, not only does it find Fires + the lands to cast it but you can also stack your library to ensure you don't draw Fires until the turn that you're looking to cast it (to dodge discard). Dimir House Guard does the same thing on 3 CMC and, because Transmute isn't a spell, enables you to go Transmute -> Mastermind's Acquisition -> [ANY SPELL] once you have a Fires out. Between 4x DHG and 4x Mastermind's Acquisition you're drawing into 8 copies of [ANY SPELL IN THE GAME] once you have a Fires out which is nuts. Moreover, while 12x Fires of Invention may be overkill in a vacuum having this many virtual copies means that removal doesn't especially bother you. This deck struggles to play Magic without one since your spells become far too expensive so it behooves to go all-in on playing as many copies as possible.
I'll note that I play Massacre in all of my Dimir House Guard decks since it enables you to transform it into an Infest should you need some interaction on turn 3. It's a low-opportunity cost way to add some cheap interaction to the list.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Since my meta is almost always 4 players, no more, no less, Syphon Mind is pretty much Harmonize, a fine card but not stellar. Still, fine is 3 cards and as a freebie in a tricolor deck, perhaps that is all it needs to be.
You aren't wrong here, admittedly I like the card and being Grixis colors blah blah blah....perhaps I play it as a singleton and just tutor for it when I am ready to try and win with it?
The issue with Fires of Invention decks is that you end up playing a lot of "overcosted" cards simply because with Fires out, the mana sink allows you to gain incremental value, but without it, you probably wouldn't play nearly as many of them. It's a fine balance.
Do you have some examples of cards for your second point?
Yes, my early game needs work here, which is why I was asking for ideas. I suppose I could just play the usual MBC cards to keep my opponents off balance.
This was my line of thought as well. I am fine setting up draws and tutoring each game so this control deck plays the best cards and has the best shot at actually controlling the game. Control can be tricky in multiplayer, my opponents often do powerful things so I need enough sweepers, sac effects, card draw, tutors, and the win cons. Without enough of all of these things, the deck is guaranteed to fail.
A year ago I would have disagreed with you. My meta just didn't have enough white in it to make the card valuable. This has changed and admittedly with Fires out, the card is pretty decent.
Do you have a proposed decklist I can work off?
Fae of Wishes is a legitimate 2 drop so this deck has more early game than it otherwise seems. You can and should run it out on turn 2 as a 1/4 flying blocker when needed. It's leagues better than things like Bonecrusher Giant which I view as unplayable.
Sphinx of Lost Truths does help you find Fires. Why wouldn't it? You can cast it on turn 5 and dig 3 cards for one while simultaneously putting a flying 3/5 blocker into play. You're not required to Kick it.
Godo, Bandit Warlord + Helm of the Host is the "good" win condition for the deck. Cast Fires, cast Godo, tutor + Equip, send your Token into battle, repeat until the entire table is dead. Easy turn 6 kill that only requires 2 deckslots total and that kills from a (nearly) empty board (save Fires).
Rite of Replication is a bonkers 5 drop for the deck since you can cast + kick it on turn 5 after you've stuck a Fire. Copying 5 of anything tends to be fantastic.
In terms of a decklist, assuming no Vintage cards:
4x Exotic Orchard
4x Gemstone Caverns
4x Polluted Delta
4x Watery Grave
2x Bloodstained Mire
2x Castle Vantress
1x Steam Vents
1x Blood Crypt
1x Island
1x Swamp
1x Mountain
4x Fae of Wishes
4x Dimir House Guard
4x Glen Elendra Archmage
Spells (23)
4x Brainstorm
4x Lim-Dul's Vault
2x Search for Azcanta
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Manifold Insights
4x Mastermind's Acquisition
4x Fires of Invention
2x Damnation
1x Massacre
Something close to this would be my staring list. I know Gemstone Caverns isn't exactly cheap but I own 4 and typically play them in all of my decks. It's also amazing with Fires which requires actual lands as opposed to generic ramp making it a functional 0 mana Time Walk. They're not required though. Brainstorm + Fetchlands can be replaced by Ponder/Preordain + No Fetchlands if you don't have any. I'd opt for Ponder over Preordain since it sees up-to 4 cards whereas Preordain only sees up-to 3 but either would work fine.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
As for win conditions, I played the deck yesterday, I had Fires of Invention in my opening hand so I transmuted my Dimir House Guard to get Syphon Mind. On turn 4, I played Fires and Syphon Mind. With 4 opponents, Syphon Mind gave me 4 cards. On turn 5, I played Warchief Giant and Rite of Replication + Kicker on it...I then attacked each other player with 6 5/3s for a total of 30 damage each.
Threats that I am playing are:
Kenrith, the Returned King (to use it's abilities with my free mana)
Cavalier of Flame
Tetzimoc, Primal Death (possibly kill several creatures when played since I have a lot of free mana)
Infernal Darkness (Limits other players a lot)
Combustible Gearhulk (to possibly make 5 copies of it)
Rite of Replication (for obvious reasons)
Warchief Giant
Molten Primordial was in my deck until recently but I find it too expensive to play. I was hoping to play it and, in the same turn, make 5 copies of it to take control of pretty much every creature in play and attack with all of them right away to finish the game.
If you scroll up, you can find a recent decklist of the deck that I am running. I am thinking of adding some Myriad Landscape to help me get more lands when needed but I am not sure of how good a fit it would be in the deck. It's 3 colors and the land gives colorless.