Gates in standard spawned quite a few iterations in the last year. Is this a deck that ports over to multiplayer with any ease? I realize you can try and win off I Win or Zombie Overrun but is the archetype now able to truly challenge for games?
If I want to beatdown, cards like Gatebreaker Ram and Gate Colossus are worth entertaining, although I feel the beatdown path could be almost ANY good creatures for that matter.
My meta is four players, it's not cutthroat (as in turn 1-2 combo), but at the same time, every deck can absolutely take control and just win games if left unmolested. We follow Vintage B&R list for the most part but any card can be played as a playset if it's legally a playset in ANY SANCTIONED format (example, 4 sol rings need not apply)
What does the community have to say about the Gates archetype and what sort of decks could you envision playing?
I have played all the Gates archetypes you described above and likely more. Maze's End is a good "oops" I win strategy that I initially built my version around. Gates is a slow archetype unless you hit your untapped mana sources and Abortion Grazer especially if you don't add Amulet of Vigor because the majority of your lands CiPT. (I don't even like Amulet of Vigor in this deck). That being said, as I made it more efficient, I realized that I wasn't really trying to play Magic, rather I was just ramping into the combo of Primeval Titan or hour of promise to snag the finisher while playing "just enough defense".
I found both the Field of the dead and Scapeshift versions powerful at times but also really risky. My meta has a lot of sweepers and without haste, you give the entire table the chance to deal with you. You really want to be triggering a metric ton of zombies and just putting out a couple/few per turn feels lackluster.
What I actually found to be the "best" way to play this archetype in a multiplayer setting is to make a few different versions of the deck and just rotate cards in/out as your meta adjusts to it. This isn't a strategy for everyone and I realize that running out and buying Playsets of Primeval TitanHydroid Krasis or Consecrated Sphinx is not possible for many players, nor would I advocate doing so. If you already have the cards, then experimentation is your friend as playgroups and playstyles vary amongst us.
If you stay away from the obvious "combo" cards the majority of the Gates matters cards are cheap to buy and there are a ton of cheap finishers in a variety of colors.. YMMV
Here is what I have been playing for a Gates deck. Full caveat, it's 70 cards because I draw so many. Maze's End was supposed to be an alt win-con but really it is THE win con and the rest is just fluff, which means you can literally play it however you like. What I have tried to do is play fair magic while cheesing wins. I could go all in on the combo, but I found that to be a little less enjoyable.
The deck folds to land destruction for obvious reasons. It also folds to faster combo, but if you play in a creature heavy meta, this deck can be a lot of fun and win games you would otherwise lose. That being said, Maze's End puts the table on a clock and you will get the hairy eyeball and be punished if you can't defend yourself.
Stuff I thought would work well but was clunky or suffered from "it worked well once, so it must be good" syndrome. Reliquary Tower - One game I drew so many cards off Consecrated Sphinx I was happy to see it. In reality, you are too busy grabbing EVERY gate you can, you don't care or have time to waste on the tower - play another forest, Arboreal Grazer will thank you. Crackling Perimeter - With a bunch of gates on the field it can pressure life totals for anyone not gaining incremental life. In practice, only once have I seen it do more than 9 damage to the table, I rarely draw it, and I always have better things to dedicate my mana towards. Play anything else or just cut if you want to lower the total cards. Wayward Swordtooth Only good if you draw a ton of cards. You can't turn it on fast enough in this deck to be a reliable defender and all your lands matter spells already put them directly into play making the card superfluous at best, if not downright bad.
It is important to note: While I play this as a Temur deck, you could very easily play 4-5 colors. In doing so you would have access to the full gambit of cards that Magic has to offer.
Thanks for replying, no one else seems remotely interested in this deck, yet for whatever reason, the jank factor is really appealing. I was thinking of playing as a control deck early and then going on the offense, so I need to add more sweepers. Staying in Temur colors, adding Blasphemous Act would appear to a good additional sweeper to play. Surely sweeping the board a couple of times gets you pretty close to a Maze's End victory?
I could easily play Wrath of God or Damnation but both of those cards require either RR or BB, making them significantly more difficult to cast on curve in a deck that has some quirks in its mana base.
FWIW I think that Elvish Rejuvenator is strictly better than cards like Explore and Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath in this archetype so I'd play $0.10 card over the $43.00 alternative even if I was trying to win. Elvish Rejuvenator is an absolutely insane Magic card in decks that lean on cards like Maze's End or Field of the Dead in order to win. It virtually always ramps "a" land, which is fine, but it also has a 30.0593682% probability of cheating your win condition directly into play. That might not sound amazing on paper but in practice it means that you actively want to be casting this card on turn 3 every game. Play 4 and never look back.
I think when you playtest Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath you will find that it isn't going to do what you want it to do consistently. By turn 3/4 you likely have dumped all lands from your hand, thus it will be an expensive explore with incidental life gain attached to it. "it worked well once, so it must be good" applies here. Plus, I feel like the escape mechanic is largely a trap for this deck, only being good, IF the game goes long but largely irrelevant if the deck is doing what it wants to do.
I completely forgot about this card, I like that it has a single W in its color requirements like Blasphemous Act does in red. Coin flip?
Quote from Prid3 »
FWIW I think that Elvish Rejuvenator is strictly better than cards like Explore and Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath in this archetype so I'd play $0.10 card over the $43.00 alternative even if I was trying to win. Elvish Rejuvenator is an absolutely insane Magic card in decks that lean on cards like Maze's End or Field of the Dead in order to win. It virtually always ramps "a" land, which is fine, but it also has a 30.0593682% probability of cheating your win condition directly into play. That might not sound amazing on paper but in practice it means that you actively want to be casting this card on turn 3 every game. Play 4 and never look back.
Elvish Rejuvenator has a ton going for it without a doubt and is a better choice in my opinion as well:
1. The land comes from the library (if you don't whiff) and not from your hand, which is important.
2. Unlike Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath it leaves a body to chump block and this deck wants early bodies
3. As Prid3 stated, it can find your wincon
4. Easier mana requirement to cast
Field of the dead is my fave card from the last few sets, and I've tended to enjoy this card most in Gates. Gate Cockroach is where I wanna be with gates. Who doesn't love a good cockroach!
My version mostly focuses on ramping, but also fields Fae of Wishes, with a singelton sideboard, mostly to solve problems.
I also run 2 Overwhelming Stampede main, with one for Fae to grab from the side.
FWIW I don't mind Gates Ablaze nor Deafening Clarion. People need to be mindful of the fact that Gate decks play 1 turn behind so 3 drops are 4 drops and 4 drops are 5 drops (often enough anyway) and that turn 5 Wraths aren't always good enough. Moreover, Deafening Clarion's lifelink can come up big when you're attacking with Luminarch Ascension tokens, Gatebreaker Rams, Gate Colossuss, etc. Anecdotally I've won games that I was absolutely 100% to lose by attacking with things like a 16/16 Ram and a Colossus in order to gain 24 life so that I could survive big drain spells, fliers, Purphoros, God of the Forge triggers, etc. I'm not saying that you have to run it but if you do play an "aggro" version of the deck with Rams + Colossi the lifelink is very real.
FWIW I don't mind Gates Ablaze nor Deafening Clarion. People need to be mindful of the fact that Gate decks play 1 turn behind so 3 drops are 4 drops and 4 drops are 5 drops (often enough anyway) and that turn 5 Wraths aren't always good enough. Moreover, Deafening Clarion's lifelink can come up big when you're attacking with Luminarch Ascension tokens, Gatebreaker Rams, Gate Colossuss, etc. Anecdotally I've won games that I was absolutely 100% to lose by attacking with things like a 16/16 Ram and a Colossus in order to gain 24 life so that I could survive big drain spells, fliers, Purphoros, God of the Forge triggers, etc. I'm not saying that you have to run it but if you do play an "aggro" version of the deck with Rams + Colossi the lifelink is very real.
Because the deck needs to be as mana-focused as possible. You want as much of it as possible as quickly as possible.
Can you flesh out an entire list? I am surprised you don't have room for a card like Primeval Titan who really speeds up Maze's End and all but guarantees victory if you live to untap with it (as it does find a total of 4 lands if it untaps)
I have never tried fires of invention Gates decks before, although I vaguely recall a list floating around somewhere....
Do you find that Arboreal Grazer loses some value if you have no way to drop it on turn one?
You face land destruction decks don't you? Maze's End struggles if you only play one gate in the "off" colors, also hurts Field of the dead making it trickier to activate. Isn't it better to spread out those guildgates more evenly?
Does Fires of invention really bring that much to the deck? I love the card in control shells but you aren't really playing control here.
I do realize this is just a hastily put together example you fleshed out. More than anything, I am always looking for the reasoning behind why others choose different cards.
Do you find that Arboreal Grazer loses some value if you have no way to drop it on turn one?
Every ramp spell is going to feel weaker when it's cast off-curve which is why it's important that you "catch up" as quickly as possible. The last thing that you want is a hand that doesn't do anything until turn 4.
Maze's End struggles if you only play one gate in the "off" colors, also hurts Field of the dead making it trickier to activate. Isn't it better to spread out those guildgates more evenly?
Hitting Green, Blue and Red sources is more important than having spares. If people are playing land d just move away from the Maze's End plan and kill them with Fields.
It's definitely cuttable so I'm not suggesting that the deck can't live without it. I like it because:
It turns Guild Summit into a burst draw spell (while also being a persistent draw engine).
It enables you to cast Kenrith and immediately activate him, often to recur Golos or gain 10 life to stay alive.
It enables you to cast Golos, activate him and cast another spell on the same turn (often turn 5).
It enables you to cast Time Wipe, bounce Golos/Kenrith and recast + activate them (Kenrith anyway, Golos not so much) on the same turn.
It enables you to pump mana into activating Maze's End every turn while still casting spells.
It's definitely cuttable so I'm not suggesting that the deck can't live without it. I like it because:
It turns Guild Summit into a burst draw spell (while also being a persistent draw engine).
It enables you to cast Kenrith and immediately activate him, often to recur Golos or gain 10 life to stay alive.
It enables you to cast Golos, activate him and cast another spell on the same turn (often turn 5).
It enables you to cast Time Wipe, bounce Golos/Kenrith and recast + activate them (Kenrith anyway, Golos not so much) on the same turn.
It enables you to pump mana into activating Maze's End every turn while still casting spells. Every Gate + Maze'd End that you play is that many more free zombies.
Thank you, this is the type of answer that clearly illustrates the reasons behind your card choices.
Kenrith looks fun and I have been dying to play him for awhile and clearly shines when you have access to five colors.
The way that I generate a stupid amount of Zombies is that I play Burgeoning over Arboreal Grazer and support it with Oboro, Palace in the Clouds. I assume it's self-explanatory but I can elaborate if anyone needs.
That is a lot of different types of builds, which I think makes the deck quite interesting. Get sick of one style, being hated out by your meta, just build it differently. I think I will start with the combo version as that seems to lend itself to quick games one way or another.
When I searched Maze's End I found 3 relevant threads that were all 5+ years old. Does Gates Ablaze, Golos, Tireless Pilgrim, Primeval Titan Hour of Promise Gatebreaker Ram Guild Summit Arboreal Grazer Explore and Consecrated Sphinx among others make this deck playable?
I realize that crackling perimeter and Seedborn Muse or prophet of kruphix was a way to damage the table if the card stuck.
I feel like if I want to win via Maze's End it's all about ramp and early defense, if I want to win via Field of the dead it's ramp, a doubling action like Panharmonicon and Scapeshift to swarm
If I want to beatdown, cards like Gatebreaker Ram and Gate Colossus are worth entertaining, although I feel the beatdown path could be almost ANY good creatures for that matter.
My meta is four players, it's not cutthroat (as in turn 1-2 combo), but at the same time, every deck can absolutely take control and just win games if left unmolested. We follow Vintage B&R list for the most part but any card can be played as a playset if it's legally a playset in ANY SANCTIONED format (example, 4 sol rings need not apply)
What does the community have to say about the Gates archetype and what sort of decks could you envision playing?
I found both the Field of the dead and Scapeshift versions powerful at times but also really risky. My meta has a lot of sweepers and without haste, you give the entire table the chance to deal with you. You really want to be triggering a metric ton of zombies and just putting out a couple/few per turn feels lackluster.
The prophet of Kruphix crackling perimeter is cute enough to win if left unchecked but let's be honest, noone lets Prophet of kruphix stick around reliably?
What I actually found to be the "best" way to play this archetype in a multiplayer setting is to make a few different versions of the deck and just rotate cards in/out as your meta adjusts to it. This isn't a strategy for everyone and I realize that running out and buying Playsets of Primeval Titan Hydroid Krasis or Consecrated Sphinx is not possible for many players, nor would I advocate doing so. If you already have the cards, then experimentation is your friend as playgroups and playstyles vary amongst us.
If you stay away from the obvious "combo" cards the majority of the Gates matters cards are cheap to buy and there are a ton of cheap finishers in a variety of colors.. YMMV
The deck folds to land destruction for obvious reasons. It also folds to faster combo, but if you play in a creature heavy meta, this deck can be a lot of fun and win games you would otherwise lose. That being said, Maze's End puts the table on a clock and you will get the hairy eyeball and be punished if you can't defend yourself.
4 Arboreal Grazer
4 Gatebreaker Ram
2 Wayward Swordtooth
3 Consecrated Sphinx
3 Golos, Tireless Pilgrim
4 Primeval Titan
4 Gate Colossus
4 Explore
4 Gates Ablaze
4 Circuitous Route
2 Crackling Perimeter
4 Guild Summit
2 Boros Guildgate
2 Dimir Guildgate
4 Forest
1 Gateway Plaza
2 Golgari Guildgate
2 Gruul Guildgate
2 Izzet Guildgate
2 Maze's End
2 Orzhov Guildgate
2 Rakdos Guildgate
1 Reliquary Tower
2 Selesnya Guildgate
2 Simic Guildgate
Stuff I thought would work well but was clunky or suffered from "it worked well once, so it must be good" syndrome.
Reliquary Tower - One game I drew so many cards off Consecrated Sphinx I was happy to see it. In reality, you are too busy grabbing EVERY gate you can, you don't care or have time to waste on the tower - play another forest, Arboreal Grazer will thank you.
Crackling Perimeter - With a bunch of gates on the field it can pressure life totals for anyone not gaining incremental life. In practice, only once have I seen it do more than 9 damage to the table, I rarely draw it, and I always have better things to dedicate my mana towards. Play anything else or just cut if you want to lower the total cards.
Wayward Swordtooth Only good if you draw a ton of cards. You can't turn it on fast enough in this deck to be a reliable defender and all your lands matter spells already put them directly into play making the card superfluous at best, if not downright bad.
The next two cards to test are Elvish Rejuvenator and Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath. Uro is a much better card so this one is budget dependant for the average player. $0.10 vs $30.00+
It is important to note: While I play this as a Temur deck, you could very easily play 4-5 colors. In doing so you would have access to the full gambit of cards that Magic has to offer.
I could easily play Wrath of God or Damnation but both of those cards require either RR or BB, making them significantly more difficult to cast on curve in a deck that has some quirks in its mana base.
FWIW I think that Elvish Rejuvenator is strictly better than cards like Explore and Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath in this archetype so I'd play $0.10 card over the $43.00 alternative even if I was trying to win. Elvish Rejuvenator is an absolutely insane Magic card in decks that lean on cards like Maze's End or Field of the Dead in order to win. It virtually always ramps "a" land, which is fine, but it also has a 30.0593682% probability of cheating your win condition directly into play. That might not sound amazing on paper but in practice it means that you actively want to be casting this card on turn 3 every game. Play 4 and never look back.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I think when you playtest Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath you will find that it isn't going to do what you want it to do consistently. By turn 3/4 you likely have dumped all lands from your hand, thus it will be an expensive explore with incidental life gain attached to it. "it worked well once, so it must be good" applies here. Plus, I feel like the escape mechanic is largely a trap for this deck, only being good, IF the game goes long but largely irrelevant if the deck is doing what it wants to do.
I completely forgot about this card, I like that it has a single W in its color requirements like Blasphemous Act does in red. Coin flip?
Elvish Rejuvenator has a ton going for it without a doubt and is a better choice in my opinion as well:
1. The land comes from the library (if you don't whiff) and not from your hand, which is important.
2. Unlike Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath it leaves a body to chump block and this deck wants early bodies
3. As Prid3 stated, it can find your wincon
4. Easier mana requirement to cast
It's cheap, lots of ways to build it, and Guild Summit is a decent source of draw, especially late game.
Crackling Perimeter + Awakening. You'll get bored with it quickly, but it IS funny.
Field of the dead is my fave card from the last few sets, and I've tended to enjoy this card most in Gates.
Gate Cockroach is where I wanna be with gates. Who doesn't love a good cockroach!
My version mostly focuses on ramping, but also fields Fae of Wishes, with a singelton sideboard, mostly to solve problems.
I also run 2 Overwhelming Stampede main, with one for Fae to grab from the side.
+1 Elvish Rejuvenator. I think Uro is over-rated.
EDIT:
I think Gates Ablaze should be a proper wrath. Cos Reanimator laughs at you
My personal favorite version of this deck is no Rams/Colossi and Fires of Invention as my broken mana engine. I play 4 so that I can use my lands on things like Maze's End, Crackling Perimeter, Golos, Tireless Pilgrim, Kenrith, the Returned King, etc. while still casting multiple spells every turn that we fuel with Guild Summit. I will also say that Sublime Exhalation and Blasphemous Act are nonbos with Fires of Invention so if you do run Fires be mindful of that.
I also agree that your deck should look something like:
4x Arboreal Grazer
4x Explore
4x Elvish Rejuvenator
4x Fires of Invention
4x Circuitous Route
4x Golos, Tireless Pilgrim
Because the deck needs to be as mana-focused as possible. You want as much of it as possible as quickly as possible.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Can you flesh out an entire list? I am surprised you don't have room for a card like Primeval Titan who really speeds up Maze's End and all but guarantees victory if you live to untap with it (as it does find a total of 4 lands if it untaps)
I have never tried fires of invention Gates decks before, although I vaguely recall a list floating around somewhere....
A sample deck would be something like:
4x Field of the Dead
3x Simic Guildgate
3x Gruul Guildgate
3x Izzet Guildgate
2x Selesnya Guildgate
2x Golgari Guildgate
2x Azorius Guildgate
1x Boros Guildgate
1x Dimir Guildgate
1x Orzhov Guildgate
1x Rakdos Guildgate
1x Stomping Ground
1x Breeding Pool
1x Spire Garden
1x Maze's End
3x Arboreal Grazer
4x Elvish Rejuvenator
4x Golos, Tireless Pilgrim
2x Kenrith, the Returned King
Spells (20)
4x Explore
4x Guild Summit
2x Deafening Clarion
4x Circuitous Route
4x Fires of Invention
2x Time Wipe
If you own Karakas then play it because it can be used to protect Golos/Kenrith and bouncing Golos to fetch lands is a decent endgame engine.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Do you find that Arboreal Grazer loses some value if you have no way to drop it on turn one?
You face land destruction decks don't you? Maze's End struggles if you only play one gate in the "off" colors, also hurts Field of the dead making it trickier to activate. Isn't it better to spread out those guildgates more evenly?
Does Fires of invention really bring that much to the deck? I love the card in control shells but you aren't really playing control here.
I do realize this is just a hastily put together example you fleshed out. More than anything, I am always looking for the reasoning behind why others choose different cards.
Every ramp spell is going to feel weaker when it's cast off-curve which is why it's important that you "catch up" as quickly as possible. The last thing that you want is a hand that doesn't do anything until turn 4.
Not really.
Hitting Green, Blue and Red sources is more important than having spares. If people are playing land d just move away from the Maze's End plan and kill them with Fields.
It's definitely cuttable so I'm not suggesting that the deck can't live without it. I like it because:
It turns Guild Summit into a burst draw spell (while also being a persistent draw engine).
It enables you to cast Kenrith and immediately activate him, often to recur Golos or gain 10 life to stay alive.
It enables you to cast Golos, activate him and cast another spell on the same turn (often turn 5).
It enables you to cast Time Wipe, bounce Golos/Kenrith and recast + activate them (Kenrith anyway, Golos not so much) on the same turn.
It enables you to pump mana into activating Maze's End every turn while still casting spells.
But it's definitely cuttable.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Do you use Yarok, the desecrated in your Gates builds? Sometimes I have a hard time generating ENOUGH zombies to take on the table
Thank you, this is the type of answer that clearly illustrates the reasons behind your card choices.
Kenrith looks fun and I have been dying to play him for awhile and clearly shines when you have access to five colors.
I do sometimes play an Elementals version of the deck with Unsettled Mariner, Risen Reef and Yarok, the desecrated among other things. It's not my go-to build though.
The way that I generate a stupid amount of Zombies is that I play Burgeoning over Arboreal Grazer and support it with Oboro, Palace in the Clouds. I assume it's self-explanatory but I can elaborate if anyone needs.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
It might be too much with both Hour of Promise and PrimeTime
4x Arboreal Grazer
4x Elvish Rejuvenator
4x Golos, Tireless Pilgrim
4x Primeval Titan
4x Explore
4x Guild Summit
2x Gates Ablaze
2x Deafening Clarion
4x Circuitous Route
2x Hour of Promise
20x Guildgates
4x Field of the dead
2x Maze's End
1x Gateway Plaza