I was thinking that Mind's Eye should work, but I don't think it does.
I didn't want to re-post another SCD of this guy, so hopefully my sharing my opinion here isn't considered necro'ing the topic. He is fairly knew after all.
I do have a fairly strong opinion on this guy, so be forewarned before reading further - while I am a heavy mono-red player (in all formats, not just EDH), I'm going to try my best to not vent and complain about the functionality of mono-red in the format.
But lets start with a very important question - something that hasn't been actually talked about here at all (unless I've missed something).
For those of you who have tried little ol' Kurkesh here in EDH, what exactly is your win condition in the deck?
From what deck lists I've read, reviews, comments, and opinions, everyone seems to agree that Kurkesh here is great for value. But to what end?
There are decks and archetypes that have "good-stuff," where the deck is full of just generally good cards per the color. Are you all considering Kurkesh a "good-stuff" general for mono-red?
Do the decks with him plan on winning with a 3-card (or more) infinite mana-combo and pray that they have some x-spell in hand, or pray that they can trick out Darksteel Forge early and hope that they can get Hellkyte Tyrant and land a hit with lattice in play? Is Kurkesh really the best enabler for that sort of win condition?
In my opinion (sorry in advance);
Kurkesh doesn't fit anywhere, and the fact that development gave him the legendary stamp is nearly insulting. He is pointless in standard, terrible in legacy and modern, not even making the cut for extended (if that were even still a thing), and in casual he is a worse version of Rings of Brighthearth (situationally, but not strictly - an easier to remove creature that requires you to use red, and only works with artifacts, vs an artifact that cost more to activate but hits everything?). So what, that must mean he was designed with being an EDH general in mind?
Look at all the other mono-colored legendarys from the core set and compare them to this guy, and tell me that he isn't the weakest by far. I mean honestly, blue has a semi-polymorph on a stick, black gets tutor-hate and a giant beater, green gets a repeatable tutor-to-play, white gets another elaborate angel, and red gets... a severely weakened Rings of Brighthearth.
To be perfectly honest, he is just not very playable unless your meta is full of very underwhelming decks. Treasonous Ogre would have made a better legendary creature, even without dethrone.
With his 3 toughness he is in Lightning Bolt range. He has no other evasion or protection, nor any other ability to prompt any other sort of offensive strategy. He would have been more playable with a 0/4 body simply because what works with him doesn't imply that he will ever attack.
His mana-cost is also too high. I'm sure those who hear mono-red players complain probably expected to hear this, but think about it;
~A voltron deck that doesn't ramp around turn 4 or 5 is probably about to smash someone hard.
~A control deck that hasn't accelerated around turn 4 or 5 is about to ether play something oppressive, hold back an answer, or something worse.
~A combo deck that hasn't accelerated by around turn 4 or 5 is most likely on the verge of their combo, or holding back an answer to guarantee their combo.
What is this deck going to do if it doesn't ramp? Cast Kurkesh on turn 4, and get some sort of value on turn 5?
Let's just pretend that your opponent has absolutely no answer to a 3-toughness creature on turn 4, and the opponent doesn't have any removal for artifacts (like Bane of Progress, Harmonic Sliver, Acidic Slime, Into the Core, or {{insert massive list of answers here}}).
It is true that he could give us great value off of seemingly invaluable things. It's cute turning the baubles into Divination's with a little benefit here and there. It's cute that he can make Armillary Sphere get 4 basics and Journeyer's Kite fetch us 2 per turn, but with Terrain Generator not being an artifact, then really we are just thinning out the deck. Umezawa's Jitte should be really good here, but what parts of this entire thread seem to be focusing the deck around combat? Disrupting Scepter equates to a possible 4-cmc Mind Rot, but in what situation when you play EDH were you really wanting to spend 4 mana to Mind Rot your opponent around turn 5? The other novelties are all cute, not good, just cute.
But past Burnished Hart and Wayfarer's Bauble (a 2-card requiring red Explosive Vegetation), and Sensei's Divining Top for easy draw, I see very little honest value of getting these small value cards when you are required to have the general out. Lux Cannon and Magestrates Scepter are both potential very powerful cards when paired with proliferate effects, but the speed and color restriction here is the key and downfall.
While coming from an incredibly different deck, Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer is, in my opinion, still superior because he can protect things. I run a Latulla, Keldon Overseer deck, and even she is superior to this thing. Again, these generals come from different deck builds, and this is my opinion, but when setting this brand new mono-red legendary next to my 14-year old under powered and underwhelming Latulla, even she seems a bit more playable, no?
Now I may be missing something here. I simply don't see a win condition being talked about unless I've overlooked it. If there is some combo then please tell me so I don't have to hate this silly Ogre so hard. But a Legendary Treasonous Ogre would still have been better :/
For those of you who have tried little ol' Kurkesh here in EDH, what exactly is your win condition in the deck?
This is my biggest question. I could see infinite combos prevalent in Kurk decks, but...I could probably do these without him easily enough. I was trying to think of something with Kurk that is more than just cute myself, but even in Mono Red I think I have better options available to actually win the game. He seems to be waaaaaaay too much of a value deck that doesn't really end the game, at least within in his own strategy. I'd have to include cards outside of what he wants to do to win, and even in artifacts, I have better options, better commanders to utilize those artifacts with.
For those of you who have tried little ol' Kurkesh here in EDH, what exactly is your win condition in the deck?
Hello. I've been lurking here for a while now. I just wanted to share with you my experience with Kurkesh here.
I play him as a combo general. He seems to generate lots of mana and lands if left unchecked with the fetch (Burnished Hart, Journeyer's Kite, Wayfarer's Bauble, etc.) and untap artifacts (Clock of Omens, Voltaic Key). Heck, he can even go infinite, which was said a while back. With that, I was able do most of these things:
Great thing about being R is that not only can they destroy other artifacts, they can also recover other destroyed artifacts as well (Myr Welder, Goblin Welder, Treasure for Trash).
I have enjoyed playing him as my commander, although I kinda feel that U is much better aligned with artifacts if going with a mono color.
For those of you who have tried little ol' Kurkesh here in EDH, what exactly is your win condition in the deck?
The one that I've seen most often is a combination of creature beats, big mana, and attrition. If you're not playing in a fast combo meta (which does not imply a meta full of underwhelming decks), grindy value and attrition engines can still perform well. Drawing more cards and making more mana than everyone else puts you in a good position, even if your actual kill mechanism is Wurmcoil Engine beats. There's also the potential for several infinite combos, if you want to go that route. They may not include Kurkesh (outside of some really convoluted stuff), but he helps develop the board to the point where you can find and protect them.
Kurkesh doesn't fit anywhere, and the fact that development gave him the legendary stamp is nearly insulting. He is pointless in standard, terrible in legacy and modern, not even making the cut for extended (if that were even still a thing), and in casual he is a worse version of Rings of Brighthearth (situationally, but not strictly - an easier to remove creature that requires you to use red, and only works with artifacts, vs an artifact that cost more to activate but hits everything?). So what, that must mean he was designed with being an EDH general in mind?
You can say the same thing about virtually every legendary creature printed in the last several years. There are 71 legendary creatures from Scars through Theros, and how many of those see constructed play? A dozen? They're mostly fringe decks and reanimation targets, as far as I can tell. I'll admit that I don't follow standard, so I might be missing some, but I can't imagine that even half of them saw regular play during their time there. WotC has clearly been designing legendary creatures with EDH in mind for a while now.
As for the Rings comparison, he is worse in some regards. He makes up for it in a couple significant ways. First, he's always available if you make him the general, and he's more resilient to removal. Rings is slightly harder to remove, but when it's gone, it takes a lot more to bring it back to the field. Kurkesh can be replayed with a mana tax, even if exiled, which is a big point in his favor. The different cost of the ability is a mixed bag. You're not going to be able to combo off with Basalt Monolith, but there's more potential for multiple actions in a turn. You're also probably going to run Rings in any Kurkesh list.
Look at all the other mono-colored legendarys from the core set and compare them to this guy, and tell me that he isn't the weakest by far. I mean honestly, blue has a semi-polymorph on a stick, black gets tutor-hate and a giant beater, green gets a repeatable tutor-to-play, white gets another elaborate angel, and red gets... a severely weakened Rings of Brighthearth.
He isn't the weakest by far. Avacyn requires a significant mana investment beyond her casting cost, and you don't even get the benefits of true protection (evasion, protection from most removal, protection from auras). Jalira is probably better, but is at least as fragile and has to live a turn or have haste somehow to do anything so she's even more fragile at the same cost. Yisan is similar to Jalira in that respect. Ob is good, as long as your opponents are continuing to tutor. He comes down after most ramp is going to be played, so it's not hard to play around that ability. He's also not going to stop a fast combo deck, because their tutoring is likely to happen before your six drop comes down, particularly if your forecasting it from the general zone. I don't think Kurkesh is the strongest of the M15 legendaries, but trying to paint him as the weakest by far is ridiculous. None of them has a clear edge.
To be perfectly honest, he is just not very playable unless your meta is full of very underwhelming decks. Treasonous Ogre would have made a better legendary creature, even without dethrone.
See my earlier comments about win conditions. You can like Treasonous Ogre more, but I don't see it as being any more deserving of legendary status. They're both unique effects for the colors.
What is this deck going to do if it doesn't ramp? Cast Kurkesh on turn 4, and get some sort of value on turn 5?
What kind of artifact focused red deck doesn't ramp? Most mono-R decks are half a step away from mono-brown, and most of the ones I've seen have 6-10 mana rocks at minimum. There's also the plan of not playing him on curve, and setting up something to do with him in the turns before. If you play him onto an empty board with the expectation that he'll survive until your next turn, he's obviously going to be worse, but that's not how games of Magic are actually played by most people.
Let's just pretend that your opponent has absolutely no answer to a 3-toughness creature on turn 4, and the opponent doesn't have any removal for artifacts (like Bane of Progress, Harmonic Sliver, Acidic Slime, Into the Core, or {{insert massive list of answers here}}).
This is true of a number of powerful generals. Arcum is useless without his supporting cast, but he's considered one of the more powerful prison generals in the format. The commonly accepted best combo deck, Hermit Druid combo, can lose to any unexpected burn spell/removal/GY hate/countermagic. You plan for the worst case scenario when deckbuilding, but passing on powerful effects because they could be answered is a terrible plan. In the scenario where he sticks and your artifacts aren't removed, a lot of cards gain value, and you use that incremental value to build into a more powerful position. Turning Baubles into Divinations is a perfectly reasonable play, because you've put other, more powerful effects into the deck.
While coming from an incredibly different deck, Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer is, in my opinion, still superior because he can protect things. I run a Latulla, Keldon Overseer deck, and even she is superior to this thing. Again, these generals come from different deck builds, and this is my opinion, but when setting this brand new mono-red legendary next to my 14-year old under powered and underwhelming Latulla, even she seems a bit more playable, no?
Slobad is probably better, sure. They just do different things. There's no reason they can't both coexist, even if they're interested in similar things. Arcum Dagsson and Muzzio, Visionary Architect are both artifact-minded mono-U generals who can cheat big things out. Jaya Ballard, Task Mage and Latulla, Keldon Overseer are mono-R spellshapers that burn things. They can coexist.
I disagree that Latulla is better, too. She costs more, doesn't protect herself any better, has to tap, and takes a significant resource investment to do anything in both cards and mana. She's not quite as obvious about requiring support cards, but she's going to be awful if you're playing one land a turn and burning people every other turn. Just because she has a more obvious way to actually kill someone doesn't make her the stronger general.
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He isn't the weakest by far. Avacyn requires a significant mana investment beyond her casting cost, and you don't even get the benefits of true protection (evasion, protection from most removal, protection from auras). Jalira is probably better, but is at least as fragile and has to live a turn or have haste somehow to do anything so she's even more fragile at the same cost. Yisan is similar to Jalira in that respect. Ob is good, as long as your opponents are continuing to tutor. He comes down after most ramp is going to be played, so it's not hard to play around that ability. He's also not going to stop a fast combo deck, because their tutoring is likely to happen before your six drop comes down, particularly if your forecasting it from the general zone. I don't think Kurkesh is the strongest of the M15 legendaries, but trying to paint him as the weakest by far is ridiculous. None of them has a clear edge.
He although does require his deck to run what very few and fairly unique cards to work. All of the other legendaries are capable of being functional on their own or with very little other requirement. The only other one that actually requires something is Ob, and that is for the opponent to tutor. But you still have a giant beater... The only other requirement for is for blue and green one, and that is for the deck to include...*gasp*...creatures.
This is and always will be stapled as my opinion, but I still feel that his level of power compared to the other 4 legendary is insultingly underwhelming.
I usually get annoyed by the power-level comparison of rares per color that are offered in a cycle.
Some are really good, but when compared to some of the other rares of the same cycle are slightly less appealing (Rage Reflection vs Wound Reflection? Inferno Titan vs Grave & Primeval? All of the primordials?)
But then you have things like the traps, time spiral magus's, commands, pacts, praetors, and so on, where when lining up all of the cards per that cycle, the red cards always look like they are recovering from some previous powercreep and had been smashed with a nerf-hammer.
Granted I'm not as annoyed this time around as I was with the rare list from Morningtide. When the rares were spoiled from that set I was absolutely livid. I love Tauren Mauler, but just about every red rare in that entire set was highly specific and incredibly situational, compared to a giant pile of magnificent and overwhelming rares the other colors got. This time around it is just this one rare that is so incredibly situational.
The one that I've seen most often is a combination of creature beats, big mana, and attrition. If you're not playing in a fast combo meta (which does not imply a meta full of underwhelming decks), grindy value and attrition engines can still perform well. Drawing more cards and making more mana than everyone else puts you in a good position, even if your actual kill mechanism is Wurmcoil Engine beats. There's also the potential for several infinite combos, if you want to go that route. They may not include Kurkesh (outside of some really convoluted stuff), but he helps develop the board to the point where you can find and protect them.
While I do understand what you're getting at per all comments of your response, the big issue, for me, is that Kurkesh himself still doesn't significantly promote any sort of win-condition that can be easily and reliably played. In his deck, he is almost unnecessary unless you want some small extra benefit from an artifact, or you are trying to combo.
I can see that he has the potential to combo with some very delicate elements. But in mono-red the ability to recover those elements if lost is much harder than other colors. Honestly while I love making ashtrays, any half-intelligent opponent will murder Goblin Welder after they figure out what he is capable of.
While I was looking at all of the negatives, it is true that Kurkesh can help create a good board presence. But it is very situational to possibly get a benefit. It's not just that if he is dealt with, it's that there is no reliable tutor for any of the solid cards that work well with him. Then the deck he is being run in has cards that are fine-tuned to him, and are most likely not offensive in nature. While some of those are cards that will be in your typical mono-red deck, many cards that are being talked about in this entire thread feel...pointless.
Taking your concept of using Kurkesh to create a grindy attrition style deck, would it not be easier to use a general that is actively having a board presence instead of waiting for the potential, not the guarantee, but the potential of some slight value? I think in a grindy deck I would prefer to run Zo-Zu the Punisher so that I can get some early damage off before I land the big-heavy-beats. Most likely the deck would have cards that are proactive to Zo-Zu as well as the beats (Batterskull / Loxodon Warhammer / Basilisk Collar / Wurmcoil / etc), and the deck can run just as smoothly without him as with him.
I should mention that I come from a rather cut-throat meta where the idea of running mono-red is typically laughed at. Being that I am typically the mono-red player in my group, I've had to develop decks that are compatible with very strong decks that tend to go off or stabilize or lock by turn-5 or earlier. Vs my group if I'm giving mono-red an honest try for a win, I'm playing Akroma or Jeska. I still feel that my Latulla deck (which I hardly consider in any way competitive enough for my own meta) is capable of stabilizing better than a Kurkesh deck can. She definitely does not tap at every opportunity as you mentioned. Her deck is designed to create a stable board presence and then tapping for 30 to 60+ damage via mana and damage doublers. There are more ways the deck can win past Latulla tapping for a massive amount although, because again the deck can run just as smoothly without her.
I don't feel that any sort of Kurkesh deck would survive and have any sort of consistent win ratio in our group. That is actually the underlying issue here - my opinion stems from my playgroup. Until some busted combo becomes realized or is printed that makes Kurkesh stronger, he is just insignificant to my meta.
I want to bring this one back from the dead. I just read the 4 pages and I love all that this guy can do. I've added him to my Darreti EDH deck and am curious about an interaction.
How would Kurkesh interact with cards like Spirit Shield and Zelyon Sword that last as long as they're tapped? Could I have a +4/+0 and +0/+4 for 6 mana as long as they stay tapped?
Also, how would kurk + Crystal Ball work? Would I scry 4? Or would I scry 2 twice?
+ Conch Horn?
Instead of Necroing a thread, it's usually fine to start a new thread with your specific questions. Also putting
[card][/card]
around cards that you're referencing help out everyone.
Spirit Shield & Zelyon Sword: You have these interaction correct. They will copy and resolve, as long as they remain tapped you'll get +0/+4 or +4/+0 respectively. However, because of how Kurkesh works you'll only need to pay their activation cost + R from Kurkesh. Crystal Ball: Kurkesh doesn't double effects, he creates another instance of the ability and puts it on the stack. So you would Scry 2, then Scry 2 again. Conch Horn: Same thing, draw 2, put 1 back. Draw 2, put one back. Most people would be fine with you short cutting it to Draw 3, put one back.
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I was thinking that Mind's Eye should work, but I don't think it does.
I didn't want to re-post another SCD of this guy, so hopefully my sharing my opinion here isn't considered necro'ing the topic. He is fairly knew after all.
I do have a fairly strong opinion on this guy, so be forewarned before reading further - while I am a heavy mono-red player (in all formats, not just EDH), I'm going to try my best to not vent and complain about the functionality of mono-red in the format.
But lets start with a very important question - something that hasn't been actually talked about here at all (unless I've missed something).
For those of you who have tried little ol' Kurkesh here in EDH, what exactly is your win condition in the deck?
From what deck lists I've read, reviews, comments, and opinions, everyone seems to agree that Kurkesh here is great for value. But to what end?
There are decks and archetypes that have "good-stuff," where the deck is full of just generally good cards per the color. Are you all considering Kurkesh a "good-stuff" general for mono-red?
Do the decks with him plan on winning with a 3-card (or more) infinite mana-combo and pray that they have some x-spell in hand, or pray that they can trick out Darksteel Forge early and hope that they can get Hellkyte Tyrant and land a hit with lattice in play? Is Kurkesh really the best enabler for that sort of win condition?
In my opinion (sorry in advance);
Kurkesh doesn't fit anywhere, and the fact that development gave him the legendary stamp is nearly insulting. He is pointless in standard, terrible in legacy and modern, not even making the cut for extended (if that were even still a thing), and in casual he is a worse version of Rings of Brighthearth (situationally, but not strictly - an easier to remove creature that requires you to use red, and only works with artifacts, vs an artifact that cost more to activate but hits everything?). So what, that must mean he was designed with being an EDH general in mind?
Look at all the other mono-colored legendarys from the core set and compare them to this guy, and tell me that he isn't the weakest by far. I mean honestly, blue has a semi-polymorph on a stick, black gets tutor-hate and a giant beater, green gets a repeatable tutor-to-play, white gets another elaborate angel, and red gets... a severely weakened Rings of Brighthearth.
To be perfectly honest, he is just not very playable unless your meta is full of very underwhelming decks. Treasonous Ogre would have made a better legendary creature, even without dethrone.
With his 3 toughness he is in Lightning Bolt range. He has no other evasion or protection, nor any other ability to prompt any other sort of offensive strategy. He would have been more playable with a 0/4 body simply because what works with him doesn't imply that he will ever attack.
His mana-cost is also too high. I'm sure those who hear mono-red players complain probably expected to hear this, but think about it;
~A voltron deck that doesn't ramp around turn 4 or 5 is probably about to smash someone hard.
~A control deck that hasn't accelerated around turn 4 or 5 is about to ether play something oppressive, hold back an answer, or something worse.
~A combo deck that hasn't accelerated by around turn 4 or 5 is most likely on the verge of their combo, or holding back an answer to guarantee their combo.
What is this deck going to do if it doesn't ramp? Cast Kurkesh on turn 4, and get some sort of value on turn 5?
Let's just pretend that your opponent has absolutely no answer to a 3-toughness creature on turn 4, and the opponent doesn't have any removal for artifacts (like Bane of Progress, Harmonic Sliver, Acidic Slime, Into the Core, or {{insert massive list of answers here}}).
It is true that he could give us great value off of seemingly invaluable things. It's cute turning the baubles into Divination's with a little benefit here and there. It's cute that he can make Armillary Sphere get 4 basics and Journeyer's Kite fetch us 2 per turn, but with Terrain Generator not being an artifact, then really we are just thinning out the deck. Umezawa's Jitte should be really good here, but what parts of this entire thread seem to be focusing the deck around combat? Disrupting Scepter equates to a possible 4-cmc Mind Rot, but in what situation when you play EDH were you really wanting to spend 4 mana to Mind Rot your opponent around turn 5? The other novelties are all cute, not good, just cute.
But past Burnished Hart and Wayfarer's Bauble (a 2-card requiring red Explosive Vegetation), and Sensei's Divining Top for easy draw, I see very little honest value of getting these small value cards when you are required to have the general out. Lux Cannon and Magestrates Scepter are both potential very powerful cards when paired with proliferate effects, but the speed and color restriction here is the key and downfall.
While coming from an incredibly different deck, Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer is, in my opinion, still superior because he can protect things. I run a Latulla, Keldon Overseer deck, and even she is superior to this thing. Again, these generals come from different deck builds, and this is my opinion, but when setting this brand new mono-red legendary next to my 14-year old under powered and underwhelming Latulla, even she seems a bit more playable, no?
Now I may be missing something here. I simply don't see a win condition being talked about unless I've overlooked it. If there is some combo then please tell me so I don't have to hate this silly Ogre so hard. But a Legendary Treasonous Ogre would still have been better :/
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!
This is my biggest question. I could see infinite combos prevalent in Kurk decks, but...I could probably do these without him easily enough. I was trying to think of something with Kurk that is more than just cute myself, but even in Mono Red I think I have better options available to actually win the game. He seems to be waaaaaaay too much of a value deck that doesn't really end the game, at least within in his own strategy. I'd have to include cards outside of what he wants to do to win, and even in artifacts, I have better options, better commanders to utilize those artifacts with.
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Hello. I've been lurking here for a while now. I just wanted to share with you my experience with Kurkesh here.
I play him as a combo general. He seems to generate lots of mana and lands if left unchecked with the fetch (Burnished Hart, Journeyer's Kite, Wayfarer's Bauble, etc.) and untap artifacts (Clock of Omens, Voltaic Key). Heck, he can even go infinite, which was said a while back. With that, I was able do most of these things:
(a) attacked with a multiple pumped Hellkite Igniter
(b) Hellkite Tyrant
(c) made multiple copies of Spawn of Thraxes with Splinter Twin and Liquimetal Coating/Silverskin Armor
(d) Rolling Thunder or Comet Storm to oblivion
(e) Mill them out with Altar of Dementia
(f) Infinite mana + Soul of Shandalar with Liquimetal Coating/Silverskin Armor
Great thing about being R is that not only can they destroy other artifacts, they can also recover other destroyed artifacts as well (Myr Welder, Goblin Welder, Treasure for Trash).
I have enjoyed playing him as my commander, although I kinda feel that U is much better aligned with artifacts if going with a mono color.
Just my two cents.
The one that I've seen most often is a combination of creature beats, big mana, and attrition. If you're not playing in a fast combo meta (which does not imply a meta full of underwhelming decks), grindy value and attrition engines can still perform well. Drawing more cards and making more mana than everyone else puts you in a good position, even if your actual kill mechanism is Wurmcoil Engine beats. There's also the potential for several infinite combos, if you want to go that route. They may not include Kurkesh (outside of some really convoluted stuff), but he helps develop the board to the point where you can find and protect them.
You can say the same thing about virtually every legendary creature printed in the last several years. There are 71 legendary creatures from Scars through Theros, and how many of those see constructed play? A dozen? They're mostly fringe decks and reanimation targets, as far as I can tell. I'll admit that I don't follow standard, so I might be missing some, but I can't imagine that even half of them saw regular play during their time there. WotC has clearly been designing legendary creatures with EDH in mind for a while now.
As for the Rings comparison, he is worse in some regards. He makes up for it in a couple significant ways. First, he's always available if you make him the general, and he's more resilient to removal. Rings is slightly harder to remove, but when it's gone, it takes a lot more to bring it back to the field. Kurkesh can be replayed with a mana tax, even if exiled, which is a big point in his favor. The different cost of the ability is a mixed bag. You're not going to be able to combo off with Basalt Monolith, but there's more potential for multiple actions in a turn. You're also probably going to run Rings in any Kurkesh list.
He isn't the weakest by far. Avacyn requires a significant mana investment beyond her casting cost, and you don't even get the benefits of true protection (evasion, protection from most removal, protection from auras). Jalira is probably better, but is at least as fragile and has to live a turn or have haste somehow to do anything so she's even more fragile at the same cost. Yisan is similar to Jalira in that respect. Ob is good, as long as your opponents are continuing to tutor. He comes down after most ramp is going to be played, so it's not hard to play around that ability. He's also not going to stop a fast combo deck, because their tutoring is likely to happen before your six drop comes down, particularly if your forecasting it from the general zone. I don't think Kurkesh is the strongest of the M15 legendaries, but trying to paint him as the weakest by far is ridiculous. None of them has a clear edge.
See my earlier comments about win conditions. You can like Treasonous Ogre more, but I don't see it as being any more deserving of legendary status. They're both unique effects for the colors.
What kind of artifact focused red deck doesn't ramp? Most mono-R decks are half a step away from mono-brown, and most of the ones I've seen have 6-10 mana rocks at minimum. There's also the plan of not playing him on curve, and setting up something to do with him in the turns before. If you play him onto an empty board with the expectation that he'll survive until your next turn, he's obviously going to be worse, but that's not how games of Magic are actually played by most people.
This is true of a number of powerful generals. Arcum is useless without his supporting cast, but he's considered one of the more powerful prison generals in the format. The commonly accepted best combo deck, Hermit Druid combo, can lose to any unexpected burn spell/removal/GY hate/countermagic. You plan for the worst case scenario when deckbuilding, but passing on powerful effects because they could be answered is a terrible plan. In the scenario where he sticks and your artifacts aren't removed, a lot of cards gain value, and you use that incremental value to build into a more powerful position. Turning Baubles into Divinations is a perfectly reasonable play, because you've put other, more powerful effects into the deck.
Slobad is probably better, sure. They just do different things. There's no reason they can't both coexist, even if they're interested in similar things. Arcum Dagsson and Muzzio, Visionary Architect are both artifact-minded mono-U generals who can cheat big things out. Jaya Ballard, Task Mage and Latulla, Keldon Overseer are mono-R spellshapers that burn things. They can coexist.
I disagree that Latulla is better, too. She costs more, doesn't protect herself any better, has to tap, and takes a significant resource investment to do anything in both cards and mana. She's not quite as obvious about requiring support cards, but she's going to be awful if you're playing one land a turn and burning people every other turn. Just because she has a more obvious way to actually kill someone doesn't make her the stronger general.
He although does require his deck to run what very few and fairly unique cards to work. All of the other legendaries are capable of being functional on their own or with very little other requirement. The only other one that actually requires something is Ob, and that is for the opponent to tutor. But you still have a giant beater... The only other requirement for is for blue and green one, and that is for the deck to include...*gasp*...creatures.
This is and always will be stapled as my opinion, but I still feel that his level of power compared to the other 4 legendary is insultingly underwhelming.
Some are fantastic like the Thundermaw Hellkite, Hostility, and Dictate of the Twin Gods.
Some are really good, but when compared to some of the other rares of the same cycle are slightly less appealing (Rage Reflection vs Wound Reflection? Inferno Titan vs Grave & Primeval? All of the primordials?)
But then you have things like the traps, time spiral magus's, commands, pacts, praetors, and so on, where when lining up all of the cards per that cycle, the red cards always look like they are recovering from some previous powercreep and had been smashed with a nerf-hammer.
Granted I'm not as annoyed this time around as I was with the rare list from Morningtide. When the rares were spoiled from that set I was absolutely livid. I love Tauren Mauler, but just about every red rare in that entire set was highly specific and incredibly situational, compared to a giant pile of magnificent and overwhelming rares the other colors got. This time around it is just this one rare that is so incredibly situational.
While I do understand what you're getting at per all comments of your response, the big issue, for me, is that Kurkesh himself still doesn't significantly promote any sort of win-condition that can be easily and reliably played. In his deck, he is almost unnecessary unless you want some small extra benefit from an artifact, or you are trying to combo.
I can see that he has the potential to combo with some very delicate elements. But in mono-red the ability to recover those elements if lost is much harder than other colors. Honestly while I love making ashtrays, any half-intelligent opponent will murder Goblin Welder after they figure out what he is capable of.
While I was looking at all of the negatives, it is true that Kurkesh can help create a good board presence. But it is very situational to possibly get a benefit. It's not just that if he is dealt with, it's that there is no reliable tutor for any of the solid cards that work well with him. Then the deck he is being run in has cards that are fine-tuned to him, and are most likely not offensive in nature. While some of those are cards that will be in your typical mono-red deck, many cards that are being talked about in this entire thread feel...pointless.
Taking your concept of using Kurkesh to create a grindy attrition style deck, would it not be easier to use a general that is actively having a board presence instead of waiting for the potential, not the guarantee, but the potential of some slight value? I think in a grindy deck I would prefer to run Zo-Zu the Punisher so that I can get some early damage off before I land the big-heavy-beats. Most likely the deck would have cards that are proactive to Zo-Zu as well as the beats (Batterskull / Loxodon Warhammer / Basilisk Collar / Wurmcoil / etc), and the deck can run just as smoothly without him as with him.
I should mention that I come from a rather cut-throat meta where the idea of running mono-red is typically laughed at. Being that I am typically the mono-red player in my group, I've had to develop decks that are compatible with very strong decks that tend to go off or stabilize or lock by turn-5 or earlier. Vs my group if I'm giving mono-red an honest try for a win, I'm playing Akroma or Jeska. I still feel that my Latulla deck (which I hardly consider in any way competitive enough for my own meta) is capable of stabilizing better than a Kurkesh deck can. She definitely does not tap at every opportunity as you mentioned. Her deck is designed to create a stable board presence and then tapping for 30 to 60+ damage via mana and damage doublers. There are more ways the deck can win past Latulla tapping for a massive amount although, because again the deck can run just as smoothly without her.
I don't feel that any sort of Kurkesh deck would survive and have any sort of consistent win ratio in our group. That is actually the underlying issue here - my opinion stems from my playgroup. Until some busted combo becomes realized or is printed that makes Kurkesh stronger, he is just insignificant to my meta.
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!
How would Kurkesh interact with cards like Spirit Shield and Zelyon Sword that last as long as they're tapped? Could I have a +4/+0 and +0/+4 for 6 mana as long as they stay tapped?
Also, how would kurk + Crystal Ball work? Would I scry 4? Or would I scry 2 twice?
+ Conch Horn?
Spirit Shield & Zelyon Sword: You have these interaction correct. They will copy and resolve, as long as they remain tapped you'll get +0/+4 or +4/+0 respectively. However, because of how Kurkesh works you'll only need to pay their activation cost + R from Kurkesh.
Crystal Ball: Kurkesh doesn't double effects, he creates another instance of the ability and puts it on the stack. So you would Scry 2, then Scry 2 again.
Conch Horn: Same thing, draw 2, put 1 back. Draw 2, put one back. Most people would be fine with you short cutting it to Draw 3, put one back.