Sat down to play EDH for the first time in months today. So many 4 color decks. Combine that with the recent printing of some very powerful 3 color commanders like Leovold and Marchesa to go along with the OG Nekusar / Kaalia / Riku cohort, and that's a lot of greedy manabases in a given Commander game.
Question is: do these recent printings make you any more likely to pack nonbasic hate in your decks?
Obviously this is going to depend on your group. But the way I see it is this: the risk you run when you play a monocolor deck is that you can't deal with everything. Blue has a hard time with most resolved permanents, green has problems with creature removal, black doesn't deal with artifacts or enchantments, etc. That's a known, calculated risk you take when you play monocolor. Seems like the same should apply for playing Atraxa with 4 basics in the deck. Yes, you get access to over 4/5 of the cards ever printed, and yes, you aren't really limited in your answers anymore, but your manabase is shaky.
So is it wrong to prey on this? Are you any more or less likely to do this now than two months ago?
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Absolutely. But your looking at it the wrong way. Your not 'preying' on any particular deck, instead your building around what is otherwise pretty much a strict disadvantage in the form of mono or two colour decks in a format where many the downsides for multicolour are practically nonexistant.
So in the absence of a real reason to play limited colour combinations, I say if you want to play 1-2 colour and get a leg up on all the 3+ colour decks by running nonbasic hate I say go for it.
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EDH RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
I do feel sorry for anybody who would take along their pre-con Commander 2016 decks and run into a non-basic hate deck The budget 4 color mana bases are slow to begin with and are dead in the water against a Ruination / Back to Basics / Blood Moon / Wave of Vitriol.
As far as million dollar mana bases running 4-5 color, yeah, take your beating for having access to as many cards as fits your strategy for sure. 90% of my 3-5 decks just fall over in the face of undisrupted non-basic hate. Do I deserve it? Yes, yes I do.
This. Honestly that is the risk of 4/5 color decks. If they can't play around Back to Basics or Blood Moon, that is their problem. They should pack more basic lands. Only a fool doesn't pack basics.
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This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
So is it wrong to prey on this? Are you any more or less likely to do this now than two months ago?
As far as i am concerned it's a matter of answers. If you don't run them at all you're doing it wrong, no matter the number of colors your deck runs.
Either your deck has access to Counterspells or you have to find non-blue things like Faith's Reward/Boros Charm/... In fact one of biggest strenghts of 3-5C in my opinion is that it opens up for versatile answers.
As for my play style, i am not more or less likely to run these kind of effects than before. I was planning to include Hall of Gemstone in my mono-g Elfball deck for a while now and it will be even more fun, now that 4C sees a lot of play.
This seems to be an echo chamber so I will add a different opinion to the mix.
I think that it is totally okay to prey on the multi-color fad while it lasts. Once the hype dies down I think people will be more likely to switch back to more reasonable color combinations and mana bases. So if building a color hate deck is something you would enjoy, now is the time.
That being said, Back to Basics and Blood Moon are the types of cards that can easily make it so someone can't play magic. This isn't going to be earn any good will from the players you're sitting across from. If you're attitude is "thats what they deserve >;[" then you obviously dont care, but seeing how the OP is kind enough to check the community it is not unreasonable to assume they have some conscience. Playing around cards like this isn't as easy as laying out your mat and someone's experience isn't less valuable then yours because they built a deck with a lot of colors in it.
A different approach to taking advantage of the multitude of non-basic lands would be something along the lines of Price of Progress or different types of Landwalk. Perish and Renounce the Guilds are other interesting options.
This seems to be an echo chamber so I will add a different opinion to the mix.
I think that it is totally okay to prey on the multi-color fad while it lasts. Once the hype dies down I think people will be more likely to switch back to more reasonable color combinations and mana bases. So if building a color hate deck is something you would enjoy, now is the time.
That being said, Back to Basics and Blood Moon are the types of cards that can easily make it so someone can't play magic. This isn't going to be earn any good will from the players you're sitting across from. If you're attitude is "thats what they deserve >;[" then you obviously dont care, but seeing how the OP is kind enough to check the community it is not unreasonable to assume they have some conscience. Playing around cards like this isn't as easy as laying out your mat and someone's experience isn't less valuable then yours because they built a deck with a lot of colors in it.
A different approach to taking advantage of the multitude of non-basic lands would be something along the lines of Price of Progress or different types of Landwalk. Perish and Renounce the Guilds are other interesting options.
This is also under the assumption that you're just playing a fun game with friends. If you're playing in say, a tournament and you're goal is to win at any cost, then by all means, be degenerate and ruthless. Show your opponents a miserable time.
I don't think it is really predatory so much as it is metagaming. While it sucks to be on the receiving end of a Blood Moon that shuts you out, it has to be a concern when building your deck. The flexibility of having 4 colors is balanced by increased chance of color screw. I have always seen many 3 and 5 color decks and I expect to see many 4 color decks going forward. Packing hate for NBLs is probably going to be a valid choice, but as with any card you run the risk of it being a totally dead card.
Tl;dr I already pack NBL hate and will continue to use it.
non basic hate is pretty much just a balancing mechanism at this point. You get access to more answers and more powerful cards at the risk of having certain cards shut you down. For everyone but Breya and combinations of partners in her colors, you can go a long way to mitigating this by running a base green mana base with enough basic land fetch. Cultivate and Kodoma's reach are two of the most powerful cards in the format, and require that you run basics. You'll trade off raw power for ramp and an answer to what would otherwise be a silver bullet. Complaining about a greedy mana base getting stomped by nbl hate is like complaining about people dropping wrath after your creature deck plays out its hand, or someone running rest in peace when you have a graveyard deck. Green also give you access to acidic slime and reclamation sage as answers, which you should be running anyway.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
If you are competitive, then it is most likely ok.
If you are casual, then it depends and you should probably talk about it. In my own opinion if a casual group is ok with Iona, Shield of Emeria, then said group should be ok with Back to Basics or Blood Moon.
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Modern:UB Taking Turns Modern:URW Madcap Experiment Pauper: MonoU Tempo Delver
Yes. I have long favored From the Ashes, Price of Progress, and more recently, Volcanic Offering in all of my red decks. With the advent of C16, I am slowly brewing a UR deck (under Nin, the Pain Artist) full of nonbasic land hate AND artifact hate (the most common way around land issues). While I doubt it will be as agonizing as playing against stax, I do see it as a "once a night" type deck that likely dies to monocolored decks.
Cheers!
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Some guys at the LGS play super strong decks. Lots of infinite combos. There are brutal Krenko and Gitrog decks there. If yesterday is any indication, there are going to be brutal Breya and Yidris decks. A few players there are on more generic GW tokens builds with Rhys or Trostani, playing those sort of bad decks with Acidic Slime as the only answer card. Many of the players there play pretty powerful versions of non-combo decks, using generals like Ayli, Riku, Maelstrom Wanderer, Ruric Thar, Edric, Grand Arbiter, Nekusar, etc. That's where I tend to fall. That said, if I'm at a table where there are newer players playing 4 color guildgate.landbase, there's nothing that says I have to cast a Ruination or whatever.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Yeah, these "how do I win better" threads are real head-scratchers. Build a Storm deck that never taps its lands until the combo turn. If people run Arcane Lab effects, run a Survival based graveyard deck. That stops working, run Blue- based Stax decks. I don't know that there can be that many different answers to the question of what to run to win more games.
Now if the question is what to run to exploit patently untenable mana bases because of the fact that Wizards printed 4 color precons, just so you can durdle around with a Sun Titan while everyone else looks at their playmat, I just can't absorb the premise of that question. Everyone knows 4c and 5c are not stable. That's why everything in EDH up to this point has been 3c or fewer, and those who were running 3c that wanted to tap down every turn were already getting exploited by Blood Moons. Everyone knkws that already. There is not some grand lesson to teach someone about the risks of playing a mana base that fails to work right on its own a good chunk of the time already.
It's that Wizards released a product with 4 color cards. People want to play them. They don't want to sit there not playing them, at the expense of learning some lesson in consistency that they already learned in 2010, approximately 3 games into their EDH career when they figured out that land denial was going to be sure way to win an EDH game against Primeval Titan.
Just really surprised that any group ok with that would be playing any 4c deck in the first place, or doing so wouldn't already know whether their deck will scoop to Blood Moon.
Yeah, these "how do I win better" threads are real head-scratchers. Build a Storm deck that never taps its lands until the combo turn. If people run Arcane Lab effects, run a Survival based graveyard deck. That stops working, run Blue- based Stax decks. I don't know that there can be that many different answers to the question of what to run to win more games.
Now if the question is what to run to exploit patently untenable mana bases because of the fact that Wizards printed 4 color precons, just so you can durdle around with a Sun Titan while everyone else looks at their playmat, I just can't absorb the premise of that question. Everyone knows 4c and 5c are not stable. That's why everything in EDH up to this point has been 3c or fewer, and those who were running 3c that wanted to tap down every turn were already getting exploited by Blood Moons. Everyone knkws that already. There is not some grand lesson to teach someone about the risks of playing a mana base that fails to work right on its own a good chunk of the time already.
It's that Wizards released a product with 4 color cards. People want to play them. They don't want to sit there not playing them, at the expense of learning some lesson in consistency that they already learned in 2010, approximately 3 games into their EDH career when they figured out that land denial was going to be sure way to win an EDH game against Primeval Titan.
Just really surprised that any group ok with that would be playing any 4c deck in the first place, or doing so wouldn't already know whether their deck will scoop to Blood Moon.
Pretty much this. The cards listed are great at hosing the guy with the budget mana base just as hard as the guy with all the duals, while UG ramp guy runs away with the game.
I'm not worried about winning more. My meta has no Hermit Druid, no Storm, etc. One guy plays a deck that combos turn 4 or 5, but he's the anamoly. My experience playing EDH is way more along the lines of the kind of decks they talk about on the Command Zone podcast.
No one in my group is playing Blood Moon or other greed hosers, but up til now, much of my group has been playing 2 color, with maybe a quarter of them playing 3 colors. If this Sunday was any indication, half of any given table going forward will be 4 color.
I was asking if anyone had seen as serious an uptick in greedy manabases as this, and if so, whether hating on those manabases was legit in your group.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
I almost always run ruination and/or blood moon in my monored decks because there's not a good reason not to when I'm already playing Extraplanar Lens. That said, monored control is my favorite playstyle (not a good style persay, just fun for me). I usually have something like Wild Guess or Jaya Ballard, Task Mage to pitch useless cards, so I usually play hate cards like Boil, Null Rod, and Grafdigger's Cage.
EDIT: I also don't complain if someone Wake of Destructions all of my snow-covered mountains, or even runs cards like Decree of Annihilation. Armageddon is the only card I have a slight problem with, and only because it doesn't cost enough mana.
If I'm playing Daretti and you are leaning hard on fancy lands, I will tip you over. It's part of the game. People should already know that playing 4-5 colors is risky that something will go wrong (don't draw in color on time, depend on rocks that get blown up, mono red hitting your land).
If I'm playing Daretti and you are leaning hard on fancy lands, I will tip you over. It's part of the game. People should already know that playing 4-5 colors is risky that something will go wrong (don't draw in color on time, depend on rocks that get blown up, mono red hitting your land).
I don't get this mentality. Basically, we should just consider this 2016 Commander product a wash then? Because you can't just learn your lesson and switch up your Askia deck so that it has something to do after Ruination resolves. You can either play a 4c deck and hope that people don't exploit you for it, or you run a different deck that can use more basics.
There is no lesson about greed, or balance, or risk. There is just getting blown away by one card, or not.
If you're ok being the guy to win with one card, you will probably be upset by other people doing the same thing (esp since you are mono-red). If you're the player that expects your opponents to do this, you will not play a 4c deck. So taking each side into account, there is no real reason to play these cards outside of a semi-competitive setting where you're ok with disabling no more than 1-3 lands or so from each player.
If you are doing it in a mono-R planeswalker deck to prove a point, you should reevaluate what kind of point you're making. You're asking opponents to respond to that. It will be either storm, gy combo, or stax, and the Mono-R players of the world will not be happy with any of the results.
Otherwise, just let people play what they want to play.
If I'm playing Daretti and you are leaning hard on fancy lands, I will tip you over. It's part of the game. People should already know that playing 4-5 colors is risky that something will go wrong (don't draw in color on time, depend on rocks that get blown up, mono red hitting your land).
I don't get this mentality. Basically, we should just consider this 2016 Commander product a wash then? Because you can't just learn your lesson and switch up your Askia deck so that it has something to do after Ruination resolves. You can either play a 4c deck and hope that people don't exploit you for it, or you run a different deck that can use more basics.
There is no lesson about greed, or balance, or risk. There is just getting blown away by one card, or not.
If you're ok being the guy to win with one card, you will probably be upset by other people doing the same thing (esp since you are mono-red). If you're the player that expects your opponents to do this, you will not play a 4c deck. So taking each side into account, there is no real reason to play these cards outside of a semi-competitive setting where you're ok with disabling no more than 1-3 lands or so from each player.
If you are doing it in a mono-R planeswalker deck to prove a point, you should reevaluate what kind of point you're making. You're asking opponents to respond to that. It will be either storm, gy combo, or stax, and the Mono-R players of the world will not be happy with any of the results.
Otherwise, just let people play what they want to play.
And I really don't get your mentality. If you are playing 4/5 colors, THAT IS THE RISK YOU TAKE. If you get blown out by a single card, then that is a problem with your deck.
Should we stop playing GY hate because it blows every GY deck out of the water? Should we just ban Eldrazi Titans since they make Mill completely useless? Should Ward of Bones not be played because the Boros dude who has 65 creature.dec will be crushed because he didn't pack artifact hate? This mentality makes no sense to me.
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This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
If I'm playing Daretti and you are leaning hard on fancy lands, I will tip you over. It's part of the game. People should already know that playing 4-5 colors is risky that something will go wrong (don't draw in color on time, depend on rocks that get blown up, mono red hitting your land).
I don't get this mentality. Basically, we should just consider this 2016 Commander product a wash then? Because you can't just learn your lesson and switch up your Askia deck so that it has something to do after Ruination resolves. You can either play a 4c deck and hope that people don't exploit you for it, or you run a different deck that can use more basics.
There is no lesson about greed, or balance, or risk. There is just getting blown away by one card, or not.
If you're ok being the guy to win with one card, you will probably be upset by other people doing the same thing (esp since you are mono-red). If you're the player that expects your opponents to do this, you will not play a 4c deck. So taking each side into account, there is no real reason to play these cards outside of a semi-competitive setting where you're ok with disabling no more than 1-3 lands or so from each player.
If you are doing it in a mono-R planeswalker deck to prove a point, you should reevaluate what kind of point you're making. You're asking opponents to respond to that. It will be either storm, gy combo, or stax, and the Mono-R players of the world will not be happy with any of the results.
Otherwise, just let people play what they want to play.
All but one of the 4 color decks runs green. That means that it should be able to run at least some basics. All but 1 also runs blue, which means it can run counter spells. 3 of them can run both. There is no excuse to being run over by nbl hate besides being greedy or running the precon straight. For the latter, just don't fire off the hate, because their running a precon. If its the former, that's what happens, suck it up. I have a few 3 color decks and a 5 color slivers deck with extremely greedy mana bases and I'm ok with the fact that nbl hate can ream me if I don't counter it, its the tradeoff I made. I also have 3 color decks that are easier on color intensity, and a couple of 5 color decks that are base green, that run enough basics to take it on the chin. You really just have to build right.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
This. Honestly that is the risk of 4/5 color decks. If they can't play around Back to Basics or Blood Moon, that is their problem. They should pack more basic lands. Only a fool or a Hermit Druid player doesn't pack basics.
Fixed. Then again, the fact that Hermit Druid can win so quickly, coupled with the fact that Blood Moon basically blanks the entire deck (save for a few dragons, but not Scion himself) should be more reason to "play more basics" so you don't get splash damage.
I already make a rule to minimize my taplands. There are actually only a few taplands I even consider for EDH:
Taplands that produce three or more colors. This would be the Alara/Tarkir cycle, as well as Murmuring Bosk. Atraxa, Praetors' Voice runs vivids because I usually gain counters faster than I lose them, but no other deck does.
"Synergy" taplands. This would be the karoo lands in landfall decks, refuges in lifegain decks, and utility lands like Sapseep Forest where they're useful. (That I can grab the Shadowmoor ones with things like Perilous Forays makes them better than they look.) Creature lands fall in here too.
The real question is, would you destroy that Earthcraft? Would you Bane of Progress a bunch of mana rocks and artifact lands? Would Pestilence or Earthquake seem a reasonable response to mana dorks?
The answer, of course, is yes. This is no different. It's not like Magic players are ever wanting for basic lands. I might have had qualms before Wastes was printed.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
And I really don't get your mentality. If you are playing 4/5 colors, THAT IS THE RISK YOU TAKE. If you get blown out by a single card, then that is a problem with your deck.
Should we stop playing GY hate because it blows every GY deck out of the water? Should we just ban Eldrazi Titans since they make Mill completely useless? Should Ward of Bones not be played because the Boros dude who has 65 creature.dec will be crushed because he didn't pack artifact hate? This mentality makes no sense to me.
The difference is that the “problem with your deck” in this instance is simply that it’s 4-colors. You need to do nothing other than to have the desire to cast the General Wizards gave you in the box to be grabbing your ankles after a Ruination.
The problem with a GY deck that folds to GY hate can be solved by the player playing around it, not overextending, you know, skill. The resolution to the problem of the Boros deck being hosed by Ward of Bones is to either pack some artifact hate, or learn to anticipate it. You know, skill. The only decision involved in whether you’ll get blown out by nbl hate playing a 4-color deck is whether to run said 4-color deck in the first place, or some other deck.
As before, no one who is really anticipating any nbl hate will play 4c or 5c decks, and their 3c decks will probably look much different than those that most players build too. In my view, if you are picking up a 4c or 5c deck, you’re already not competing with the general format (unless by playing 5-c you plan to go off Turn 4 or earlier, before a lot of the stuff hits). But in Commander 2016, Wizards printed 4 color commanders. Understandably, people want to be playing them. They’re not trying to make some strategic statement that 4-color is better because it has more options, or that any given deck shouldn’t have its relevant hate cards. They’re just trying to play their decks. Which they can’t do against nbl hate, either because all their lands are in the graveyard, or because they are color screwed the whole game with 5x of each basic in the deck.
All but one of the 4 color decks runs green. That means that it should be able to run at least some basics. All but 1 also runs blue, which means it can run counter spells. 3 of them can run both. There is no excuse to being run over by nbl hate besides being greedy or running the precon straight. For the latter, just don't fire off the hate, because their running a precon. If its the former, that's what happens, suck it up. I have a few 3 color decks and a 5 color slivers deck with extremely greedy mana bases and I'm ok with the fact that nbl hate can ream me if I don't counter it, its the tradeoff I made. I also have 3 color decks that are easier on color intensity, and a couple of 5 color decks that are base green, that run enough basics to take it on the chin. You really just have to build right.
The ability to evade nbl hate just by running Green is overrated when it comes to 4c and 5c decks. You can probably do that ok if you are running a 3-color Gxy deck. But if you are running more colors, you will start off with about 2 colors in hand, then possibly be able to access a third color with Sakura Tribe Elder, or whatever. You are then topdecking to your fourth and fifth color. All of the mana sources that the deck will run will have two colors (Signets, Farseek, etc). Otherwise, the math just leaves you screwed once out of every three games or so.
Also on packing counterspells against nbl hate, not every one of the Commander 2016 generals is a “Control” general. Debatably, none of them are. None of them have Flash, or interact with Instants, or do anything that suggest you might want to or need to run them alongside a Blue-based Control package. So you are either dedicating 8-12 slots on an idea that you just don’t want to be sitting looking at your playmat all day after an nbl hate card, or you are counting on other players to let you run the kind of decks that a general like Atraxa tends toward, like Planeswalkers, Thallid tribal, or something like that.
Again, I completely empathize with the competitive side of things, that there has to be an answer to every type of strategic overextension, whether in deck-building or in play. But in my mind, you’ve already ceded the willingness to do anything about nbl hate, just by sleeving up a deck that is 4 colors.
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Question is: do these recent printings make you any more likely to pack nonbasic hate in your decks?
Obviously this is going to depend on your group. But the way I see it is this: the risk you run when you play a monocolor deck is that you can't deal with everything. Blue has a hard time with most resolved permanents, green has problems with creature removal, black doesn't deal with artifacts or enchantments, etc. That's a known, calculated risk you take when you play monocolor. Seems like the same should apply for playing Atraxa with 4 basics in the deck. Yes, you get access to over 4/5 of the cards ever printed, and yes, you aren't really limited in your answers anymore, but your manabase is shaky.
So is it wrong to prey on this? Are you any more or less likely to do this now than two months ago?
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
So in the absence of a real reason to play limited colour combinations, I say if you want to play 1-2 colour and get a leg up on all the 3+ colour decks by running nonbasic hate I say go for it.
RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck
RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
Arena Standard
UUUU Tempo, since before it was cool
Various Wx decks running Fountain of Renewal and Day of Glory
Anything I can cram Chaos Wand in to
As far as million dollar mana bases running 4-5 color, yeah, take your beating for having access to as many cards as fits your strategy for sure. 90% of my 3-5 decks just fall over in the face of undisrupted non-basic hate. Do I deserve it? Yes, yes I do.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
This. Honestly that is the risk of 4/5 color decks. If they can't play around Back to Basics or Blood Moon, that is their problem. They should pack more basic lands. Only a fool doesn't pack basics.
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
Either your deck has access to Counterspells or you have to find non-blue things like Faith's Reward/Boros Charm/... In fact one of biggest strenghts of 3-5C in my opinion is that it opens up for versatile answers.
As for my play style, i am not more or less likely to run these kind of effects than before. I was planning to include Hall of Gemstone in my mono-g Elfball deck for a while now and it will be even more fun, now that 4C sees a lot of play.
I think that it is totally okay to prey on the multi-color fad while it lasts. Once the hype dies down I think people will be more likely to switch back to more reasonable color combinations and mana bases. So if building a color hate deck is something you would enjoy, now is the time.
That being said, Back to Basics and Blood Moon are the types of cards that can easily make it so someone can't play magic. This isn't going to be earn any good will from the players you're sitting across from. If you're attitude is "thats what they deserve >;[" then you obviously dont care, but seeing how the OP is kind enough to check the community it is not unreasonable to assume they have some conscience. Playing around cards like this isn't as easy as laying out your mat and someone's experience isn't less valuable then yours because they built a deck with a lot of colors in it.
A different approach to taking advantage of the multitude of non-basic lands would be something along the lines of Price of Progress or different types of Landwalk. Perish and Renounce the Guilds are other interesting options.
GWUBAtraxa, Praetor's Voice PrimerGWUB
GWURoon Bant Blink WhateverGWU
BRGLord Windgrace LandsBRG
This is also under the assumption that you're just playing a fun game with friends. If you're playing in say, a tournament and you're goal is to win at any cost, then by all means, be degenerate and ruthless. Show your opponents a miserable time.
Tl;dr I already pack NBL hate and will continue to use it.
amazingly epic sig courtesy of DarkNightCavalier at Heroes of the Planes.
GWUBAtraxa, Praetor's Voice PrimerGWUB
GWURoon Bant Blink WhateverGWU
BRGLord Windgrace LandsBRG
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Like yeah, I'm playing a 2016 Precon. No, that doesn't mean I'm so much stronger than your 2-colour deck.
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
If you are hyper competitive, then anything goes.
If you are competitive, then it is most likely ok.
If you are casual, then it depends and you should probably talk about it. In my own opinion if a casual group is ok with Iona, Shield of Emeria, then said group should be ok with Back to Basics or Blood Moon.
Modern: URW Madcap Experiment
Pauper: MonoU Tempo Delver
My EDH Commanders:
Aminatou, The Fateshifter UBW
Azami, Lady of Scrolls U
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed B
Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG
Glissa, the Traitor BG
Arcum Dagsson U
Cheers!
Krichaiushii on PucaTrade.
Some guys at the LGS play super strong decks. Lots of infinite combos. There are brutal Krenko and Gitrog decks there. If yesterday is any indication, there are going to be brutal Breya and Yidris decks. A few players there are on more generic GW tokens builds with Rhys or Trostani, playing those sort of bad decks with Acidic Slime as the only answer card. Many of the players there play pretty powerful versions of non-combo decks, using generals like Ayli, Riku, Maelstrom Wanderer, Ruric Thar, Edric, Grand Arbiter, Nekusar, etc. That's where I tend to fall. That said, if I'm at a table where there are newer players playing 4 color guildgate.landbase, there's nothing that says I have to cast a Ruination or whatever.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Most recently I had it in a brand-new Clique deck, and my buddy Praetor's Grasp'd it ASAP. He did not want that to ever hit the table.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Now if the question is what to run to exploit patently untenable mana bases because of the fact that Wizards printed 4 color precons, just so you can durdle around with a Sun Titan while everyone else looks at their playmat, I just can't absorb the premise of that question. Everyone knows 4c and 5c are not stable. That's why everything in EDH up to this point has been 3c or fewer, and those who were running 3c that wanted to tap down every turn were already getting exploited by Blood Moons. Everyone knkws that already. There is not some grand lesson to teach someone about the risks of playing a mana base that fails to work right on its own a good chunk of the time already.
It's that Wizards released a product with 4 color cards. People want to play them. They don't want to sit there not playing them, at the expense of learning some lesson in consistency that they already learned in 2010, approximately 3 games into their EDH career when they figured out that land denial was going to be sure way to win an EDH game against Primeval Titan.
Just really surprised that any group ok with that would be playing any 4c deck in the first place, or doing so wouldn't already know whether their deck will scoop to Blood Moon.
Pretty much this. The cards listed are great at hosing the guy with the budget mana base just as hard as the guy with all the duals, while UG ramp guy runs away with the game.
Most of these cards are 1-shot surprise effects that make people shift their decks around a bit. While you're having fun blowing up that Shimmering Grotto and Rupture Spire, get ready to lose to the Grand Arbiter Augustin IV deck with 20+ basics. It's kind of like playing Deathgrip and Acid Rain to show that jerk with the Omnath, Locus of Mana deck who's boss.
No one in my group is playing Blood Moon or other greed hosers, but up til now, much of my group has been playing 2 color, with maybe a quarter of them playing 3 colors. If this Sunday was any indication, half of any given table going forward will be 4 color.
I was asking if anyone had seen as serious an uptick in greedy manabases as this, and if so, whether hating on those manabases was legit in your group.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
EDIT: I also don't complain if someone Wake of Destructions all of my snow-covered mountains, or even runs cards like Decree of Annihilation. Armageddon is the only card I have a slight problem with, and only because it doesn't cost enough mana.
- Rabid Wombat
I don't get this mentality. Basically, we should just consider this 2016 Commander product a wash then? Because you can't just learn your lesson and switch up your Askia deck so that it has something to do after Ruination resolves. You can either play a 4c deck and hope that people don't exploit you for it, or you run a different deck that can use more basics.
There is no lesson about greed, or balance, or risk. There is just getting blown away by one card, or not.
If you're ok being the guy to win with one card, you will probably be upset by other people doing the same thing (esp since you are mono-red). If you're the player that expects your opponents to do this, you will not play a 4c deck. So taking each side into account, there is no real reason to play these cards outside of a semi-competitive setting where you're ok with disabling no more than 1-3 lands or so from each player.
If you are doing it in a mono-R planeswalker deck to prove a point, you should reevaluate what kind of point you're making. You're asking opponents to respond to that. It will be either storm, gy combo, or stax, and the Mono-R players of the world will not be happy with any of the results.
Otherwise, just let people play what they want to play.
And I really don't get your mentality. If you are playing 4/5 colors, THAT IS THE RISK YOU TAKE. If you get blown out by a single card, then that is a problem with your deck.
Should we stop playing GY hate because it blows every GY deck out of the water? Should we just ban Eldrazi Titans since they make Mill completely useless? Should Ward of Bones not be played because the Boros dude who has 65 creature.dec will be crushed because he didn't pack artifact hate? This mentality makes no sense to me.
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
All but one of the 4 color decks runs green. That means that it should be able to run at least some basics. All but 1 also runs blue, which means it can run counter spells. 3 of them can run both. There is no excuse to being run over by nbl hate besides being greedy or running the precon straight. For the latter, just don't fire off the hate, because their running a precon. If its the former, that's what happens, suck it up. I have a few 3 color decks and a 5 color slivers deck with extremely greedy mana bases and I'm ok with the fact that nbl hate can ream me if I don't counter it, its the tradeoff I made. I also have 3 color decks that are easier on color intensity, and a couple of 5 color decks that are base green, that run enough basics to take it on the chin. You really just have to build right.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Fixed. Then again, the fact that Hermit Druid can win so quickly, coupled with the fact that Blood Moon basically blanks the entire deck (save for a few dragons, but not Scion himself) should be more reason to "play more basics" so you don't get splash damage.
I already make a rule to minimize my taplands. There are actually only a few taplands I even consider for EDH:
The real question is, would you destroy that Earthcraft? Would you Bane of Progress a bunch of mana rocks and artifact lands? Would Pestilence or Earthquake seem a reasonable response to mana dorks?
The answer, of course, is yes. This is no different. It's not like Magic players are ever wanting for basic lands. I might have had qualms before Wastes was printed.
On phasing:
The difference is that the “problem with your deck” in this instance is simply that it’s 4-colors. You need to do nothing other than to have the desire to cast the General Wizards gave you in the box to be grabbing your ankles after a Ruination.
The problem with a GY deck that folds to GY hate can be solved by the player playing around it, not overextending, you know, skill. The resolution to the problem of the Boros deck being hosed by Ward of Bones is to either pack some artifact hate, or learn to anticipate it. You know, skill. The only decision involved in whether you’ll get blown out by nbl hate playing a 4-color deck is whether to run said 4-color deck in the first place, or some other deck.
As before, no one who is really anticipating any nbl hate will play 4c or 5c decks, and their 3c decks will probably look much different than those that most players build too. In my view, if you are picking up a 4c or 5c deck, you’re already not competing with the general format (unless by playing 5-c you plan to go off Turn 4 or earlier, before a lot of the stuff hits). But in Commander 2016, Wizards printed 4 color commanders. Understandably, people want to be playing them. They’re not trying to make some strategic statement that 4-color is better because it has more options, or that any given deck shouldn’t have its relevant hate cards. They’re just trying to play their decks. Which they can’t do against nbl hate, either because all their lands are in the graveyard, or because they are color screwed the whole game with 5x of each basic in the deck.
The ability to evade nbl hate just by running Green is overrated when it comes to 4c and 5c decks. You can probably do that ok if you are running a 3-color Gxy deck. But if you are running more colors, you will start off with about 2 colors in hand, then possibly be able to access a third color with Sakura Tribe Elder, or whatever. You are then topdecking to your fourth and fifth color. All of the mana sources that the deck will run will have two colors (Signets, Farseek, etc). Otherwise, the math just leaves you screwed once out of every three games or so.
Also on packing counterspells against nbl hate, not every one of the Commander 2016 generals is a “Control” general. Debatably, none of them are. None of them have Flash, or interact with Instants, or do anything that suggest you might want to or need to run them alongside a Blue-based Control package. So you are either dedicating 8-12 slots on an idea that you just don’t want to be sitting looking at your playmat all day after an nbl hate card, or you are counting on other players to let you run the kind of decks that a general like Atraxa tends toward, like Planeswalkers, Thallid tribal, or something like that.
Again, I completely empathize with the competitive side of things, that there has to be an answer to every type of strategic overextension, whether in deck-building or in play. But in my mind, you’ve already ceded the willingness to do anything about nbl hate, just by sleeving up a deck that is 4 colors.