Hey people can run what they want with me. I'm just saying I'm no more likely to include non-basic land hate than I was before even if I'm gonna see more 4+ color decks for the time being.
Not really. If I want to take up space in my deck with hate it's going to be hate that's always useful in EDH like Relic of Progenitus, and City of Solitude. Not "Oh you want to try the new thing you just bought for EDH well FORGET YOU ".
Was it wrong to play Relic when Meren got super popular? Was it wrong to play City of Solitude when Mizzix came out? Is it wrong to play Leyline of the Void in a graveyard-heavy meta?
All of that hate is more open to interaction. It might hurt some at first to get your graveyard exiled, but then you can either move on with the game after relic or wait for Leyline to get answered. You can try to deal with City of Solitude on your turn. Getting all of your lands blown up by Ruination when the rest of the table sees no effect, the game is over. Also with something like Back to Basics or Blood Moon, often the only players who can do something about it are those not affected by it, and so they will make sure it stays put. Not as bad as Ruination because you can look for a basic and kill it, though.
It's about line-drawing, really. I think everyone would agree that a 1 mana Instant spell that says "target opponent loses the game" would not be good for the game. On the other end, people expect very conventional disruption like Chaos Warp. So, we can all agree that a certain spectrum exists between acceptable disruption and unacceptable. And, I can agree that this spectrum changes depending on the setting, with more effective decks asking for better disruption against them. I just don't think that any 4-color deck is at the same spot of that spectrum as cards that disrupt you as badly as NBL hate does.
Black can thoughtseize and duress. Discard is all about eliminating threats before they manifest.
Non-basic land hate is powerful and is considered a counter to ANY deck that relies too heavily on non-basic lands. It is possible for a 4-color deck to adopt a basic heavy landbase with or without green. Land tax and all of its balanced variants in white are good about searching up basic lands. White also can tutor for mana rocks with enlightened tutor. Blood moon does little to a 4-color deck filled with basic lands and ways to fetch them out.
Not really. If I want to take up space in my deck with hate it's going to be hate that's always useful in EDH like Relic of Progenitus, and City of Solitude. Not "Oh you want to try the new thing you just bought for EDH well FORGET YOU ".
Was it wrong to play Relic when Meren got super popular? Was it wrong to play City of Solitude when Mizzix came out? Is it wrong to play Leyline of the Void in a graveyard-heavy meta?
All of that hate is more open to interaction. It might hurt some at first to get your graveyard exiled, but then you can either move on with the game after relic or wait for Leyline to get answered. You can try to deal with City of Solitude on your turn. Getting all of your lands blown up by Ruination when the rest of the table sees no effect, the game is over. Also with something like Back to Basics or Blood Moon, often the only players who can do something about it are those not affected by it, and so they will make sure it stays put. Not as bad as Ruination because you can look for a basic and kill it, though.
It's about line-drawing, really. I think everyone would agree that a 1 mana Instant spell that says "target opponent loses the game" would not be good for the game. On the other end, people expect very conventional disruption like Chaos Warp. So, we can all agree that a certain spectrum exists between acceptable disruption and unacceptable. And, I can agree that this spectrum changes depending on the setting, with more effective decks asking for better disruption against them. I just don't think that any 4-color deck is at the same spot of that spectrum as cards that disrupt you as badly as NBL hate does.
Yeah, Ruination only hurts 4 color decks, and always blows up all of their lands, even though its been shown to you, repeatedly, that its both possible and wise to build at least 8 basics into your mana base, which you can get with the 10 fetches. NBL hate will also harm 3 color decks, and even two color decks. It even will net a few lands from mono color, like cradle, coffers, and tomb. But yeah, I guess its a lot easier to make an argument when you get to set up a strawman. You can also interact with nbl hate, as other posters have already let you know. Of course, what do I know, I built and play 4 color decks. I must be lying to you when I say that I've ran into nbl and won, or that I don't have any more problem with color screw than I do with 3 color decks, or that I have no problem with getting half my lands in a game to be basic.
Now, of course, it would be much more difficult if I didn't play those decks online, as I wouldn't have access to ABUR duals, but the pro nbl hate side has already argued against using it against 4colorgates.dek, so the only disagreement is over using it against decks with $500 plus mana bases (go back and read the thread if you don't believe it, most of the people who are in favor of NBL hate, myself included, led with don't use it against scrub mana bases).
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I have always run some non-basic land hate, and don't plan to change that in any way - either to add more or use less - with the arrival of four-color Commander. My mono-red and heavily-red decks tend to run Blood Moon, because it's always been good at stopping a lot of degenerate things, and is one of the best tricks R has to offer (I also tend to include Stranglehold in the majority of my R decks, because it's another great trick that messes with a wide range of dangerous things opponents might do). Most decks I run that include red also run Shivan Harvest, which is a lot more "fair" than effects like Blood Moon or Back to Basics. MLD is largely frowned upon in my playgroup, so I don't run those cards very often, even the ones which only impact non-basics. Non-basic punishers that don't destroy the lands are, in my opinion, perfectly fair game. Players running 3+ colors should consider running things like signets and other mana rocks that provide colored mana, as well as some amount of basic lands. This is one thing the precon decks did right.
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All of that hate is more open to interaction. It might hurt some at first to get your graveyard exiled, but then you can either move on with the game after relic or wait for Leyline to get answered. You can try to deal with City of Solitude on your turn. Getting all of your lands blown up by Ruination when the rest of the table sees no effect, the game is over. Also with something like Back to Basics or Blood Moon, often the only players who can do something about it are those not affected by it, and so they will make sure it stays put. Not as bad as Ruination because you can look for a basic and kill it, though.
It's about line-drawing, really. I think everyone would agree that a 1 mana Instant spell that says "target opponent loses the game" would not be good for the game. On the other end, people expect very conventional disruption like Chaos Warp. So, we can all agree that a certain spectrum exists between acceptable disruption and unacceptable. And, I can agree that this spectrum changes depending on the setting, with more effective decks asking for better disruption against them. I just don't think that any 4-color deck is at the same spot of that spectrum as cards that disrupt you as badly as NBL hate does.
Blue can swan song away ruination or blood moon.
Black can thoughtseize and duress. Discard is all about eliminating threats before they manifest.
Non-basic land hate is powerful and is considered a counter to ANY deck that relies too heavily on non-basic lands. It is possible for a 4-color deck to adopt a basic heavy landbase with or without green. Land tax and all of its balanced variants in white are good about searching up basic lands. White also can tutor for mana rocks with enlightened tutor. Blood moon does little to a 4-color deck filled with basic lands and ways to fetch them out.
Yeah, Ruination only hurts 4 color decks, and always blows up all of their lands, even though its been shown to you, repeatedly, that its both possible and wise to build at least 8 basics into your mana base, which you can get with the 10 fetches. NBL hate will also harm 3 color decks, and even two color decks. It even will net a few lands from mono color, like cradle, coffers, and tomb. But yeah, I guess its a lot easier to make an argument when you get to set up a strawman. You can also interact with nbl hate, as other posters have already let you know. Of course, what do I know, I built and play 4 color decks. I must be lying to you when I say that I've ran into nbl and won, or that I don't have any more problem with color screw than I do with 3 color decks, or that I have no problem with getting half my lands in a game to be basic.
Now, of course, it would be much more difficult if I didn't play those decks online, as I wouldn't have access to ABUR duals, but the pro nbl hate side has already argued against using it against 4colorgates.dek, so the only disagreement is over using it against decks with $500 plus mana bases (go back and read the thread if you don't believe it, most of the people who are in favor of NBL hate, myself included, led with don't use it against scrub mana bases).
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!