They've printed Splendid Reclamation, Groundskeeper, Faith's Reward, Terra Eternal, Boros Charm, Planar Birth, and Sacred Ground as a few cards that can bring lands back from the graveyard or prevent them from being destroyed. There are recovery tech so even 4 or 5 color decks aren't completely hosed, and there's a ton of mana rocks which are worth running too. Granted, some of them only interact with basics, but not all.
It would be interesting to know if all of the people in favor of the nonbasic hate are also in favor of Iona, Shield of Emeria and her ability to hose monocolored decks. I could easily see people say that that is the risk a monocolored deck takes by being single colored and that the monocolored deck is the one to blame when that player stares at their playmat for half an hour after an Iona naming their color hits the board.
I personally would rather see a game that has all players involved than a game with one or more players sitting on the sidelines because a one-shot hate card ruined their game. It why the core people I play with allow for extra free mulligans when after Vancouvering a few times has yielded a hand with 0-1 lands. We dont want anyone sitting out simply because RNG screwed over their opening hand.
I built breya online. I run 14 basics, 6 abur, 6 shocks, command tower, myriad landscape, academy ruins, mana confluence, ancient tomb, temple, city of brass, and 7 fetches. I try to fetch basics if possible, depending on my mana needs. I also run a few of the best counters, mostly as insurance against combo, so they sit in my hand until absolutely needed. Ruination will usually just set me back a few lands, sometimes will eat a counter, and sometimes will bone me. I also run crucible because it's completely stupid and turn a fetch in the yard into 5-6 lands, and of course that helps against destruction. I also run that white water capsule because repeated artifact/enchantment kill that has synergy with the deck is a good idea, and that takes out the enchantments. Basically, unless you have a preposterously greedy mana base, these cards should see you back bit rarely totally lock you out, and you should be running answers anyway, espexconsidering that those answers are usually useful anywau against a large number of threats.
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It would be interesting to know if all of the people in favor of the nonbasic hate are also in favor of Iona, Shield of Emeria and her ability to hose monocolored decks. I could easily see people say that that is the risk a monocolored deck takes by being single colored and that the monocolored deck is the one to blame when that player stares at their playmat for half an hour after an Iona naming their color hits the board.
I haven't got a problem with Iona at all. I've got plenty of answers in my monoblue Kami deck. In other decks without access to counters, I would try to include a way to deal with it. I've never actually seen it at a table, though, so bully for me. But once I do, I'll be packing an answer, even if that answer is just politicking.
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On the flip side, my Glissa, the Traitor deck was in a game where Anafenza, the Foremost was one of the opponents. It was miserable, since it basically blanked my entire strategy.
One thing I've learned is that sometimes there are spells and strategies that are going to ruin you. I don't enjoy it when I'm on the receiving end, but I'm also not going to refrain from putting a hoser or two into my own decks. It's just one of the fundamentals of the game.
It would be interesting to know if all of the people in favor of the nonbasic hate are also in favor of Iona, Shield of Emeria and her ability to hose monocolored decks. I could easily see people say that that is the risk a monocolored deck takes by being single colored and that the monocolored deck is the one to blame when that player stares at their playmat for half an hour after an Iona naming their color hits the board.
I personally would rather see a game that has all players involved than a game with one or more players sitting on the sidelines because a one-shot hate card ruined their game. It why the core people I play with allow for extra free mulligans when after Vancouvering a few times has yielded a hand with 0-1 lands. We dont want anyone sitting out simply because RNG screwed over their opening hand.
Indeed, that is a risk your taking. You get much smoother and consistent draws by only having to hit one color, in exchange you get blown out by one card (if you don't have any artifact based answer or counter magic or eldrazi) and you have the color's traditional weaknesses. Its part of the game, and its a popular card.
As I've said many times on this forum, as have many other people, if you have a playgroup you should, you know, talk. The OP actually gave us a decent amount of info on his playgroup, and the people rocking 4 color there are playing against Augustine, which is a deck that tries to make everyone at the table sit on the sidelines not playing, so they probably aren't just taking the precon out of the box and running it. That's exactly the sort of playgroup where busting out non basic hate is warranted, and should be expected. Hell, it should help hose the 3 color decks he mentioned a bit as well. If someone's bringing a precon to that group, they're going to fold to Nekusar, Augustine, and the like anyway. Now, if your group has a few guys running precons with minor upgrades and ***** manabases, you don't need to run nbl hate, because they're already playing with a handicap. Just like if your group has a bunch of solid graveyard decks you should run graveyard hate, but if there's a dude durdling with flashback spells and another trying to make soulshift a thing you shouldn't run the hate. In a meta where nbl hate is appropriate, Iona is absolutely fine.
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I agree that it’s an issue of degree with the people playing. And, I’m usually on the one side of the argument myself. If someone is trying to beat me over the head with a 5-color combo deck, get ready to see some Ruination. If I am trying to compete at a Control/Combo table with a Boros deck, prepare to see Boil and Pyroblast from the Sunforger.
But the segment of people who are trying to reach that level with a 4-color deck just seems non-existent to me. These new Commanders are enough toward the casual end that it’s pretty safe to assume from someone sleeving one up that they don’t want to spend the first few turns of the game counterspelling hate cards. Although from people mentioning Nekusar as in this realm, I’m not sure exactly what qualifies to some people. But from my eye on the EDH community as it exists for public games (LGS, online, what have you), I think it’s safe to assume that if you queue up against someone with Breya in the Command Zone (not to mention 40+ lands in their deck, as above), then you owe it to them to be a little bit more creative than just tutoring for one card that they have to answer on the spot or lose to, and writing it off as their problem when they don’t have the answer.
I do have essentially the same view re Iona, it’s just that Mono-Blue is actually good, and you can bet that you will see the Arcane Lab’s, Teferi’s, Back to Basics, and so on, from a competitive Mono-U deck. Also, Iona is highly effective naming Blue, even against a Control deck of 2-3 colors.
If I'm playing Daretti and you are leaning hard on fancy lands, I will tip you over. It's part of the game. People should already know that playing 4-5 colors is risky that something will go wrong (don't draw in color on time, depend on rocks that get blown up, mono red hitting your land).
I don't get this mentality. Basically, we should just consider this 2016 Commander product a wash then? Because you can't just learn your lesson and switch up your Askia deck so that it has something to do after Ruination resolves. You can either play a 4c deck and hope that people don't exploit you for it, or you run a different deck that can use more basics.
There is no lesson about greed, or balance, or risk. There is just getting blown away by one card, or not.
If you're ok being the guy to win with one card, you will probably be upset by other people doing the same thing (esp since you are mono-red). If you're the player that expects your opponents to do this, you will not play a 4c deck. So taking each side into account, there is no real reason to play these cards outside of a semi-competitive setting where you're ok with disabling no more than 1-3 lands or so from each player.
If you are doing it in a mono-R planeswalker deck to prove a point, you should reevaluate what kind of point you're making. You're asking opponents to respond to that. It will be either storm, gy combo, or stax, and the Mono-R players of the world will not be happy with any of the results.
Otherwise, just let people play what they want to play.
Well I own thousands of cards and play anywhere from 5 to 8 decks, from mono to 5c, so I am not a rigid mono red stax player. I usually bring a few different decks of varying strengths, depending on who is playing. But as you well know, red is always weaker the longer the game runs. So if I'm playing someone on 4 or 5 colors, who's at a disadvantge? The game has different tools for different colors. Guess what tools red has? Obviously if someone is pulling his 4c deck from the original box, I won't play a vicious red stax deck. But to say that they didn't know, is nonsense.
I agree that it’s an issue of degree with the people playing. And, I’m usually on the one side of the argument myself. If someone is trying to beat me over the head with a 5-color combo deck, get ready to see some Ruination. If I am trying to compete at a Control/Combo table with a Boros deck, prepare to see Boil and Pyroblast from the Sunforger.
But the segment of people who are trying to reach that level with a 4-color deck just seems non-existent to me. These new Commanders are enough toward the casual end that it’s pretty safe to assume from someone sleeving one up that they don’t want to spend the first few turns of the game counterspelling hate cards. Although from people mentioning Nekusar as in this realm, I’m not sure exactly what qualifies to some people. But from my eye on the EDH community as it exists for public games (LGS, online, what have you), I think it’s safe to assume that if you queue up against someone with Breya in the Command Zone (not to mention 40+ lands in their deck, as above), then you owe it to them to be a little bit more creative than just tutoring for one card that they have to answer on the spot or lose to, and writing it off as their problem when they don’t have the answer.
I do have essentially the same view re Iona, it’s just that Mono-Blue is actually good, and you can bet that you will see the Arcane Lab’s, Teferi’s, Back to Basics, and so on, from a competitive Mono-U deck. Also, Iona is highly effective naming Blue, even against a Control deck of 2-3 colors.
Actually 3 of the 5 new commanders are wicked strong...
Yidris Storm is a thing to behold... and Yidris Eldrazi gets stupid fast.
Breya is a combo machine. You can easily fill Breya with a bunch of infinite combos.
Atraxa Stax is actually quite oppressive and brutal. Not quite as fast as Derevi but much more viscious (due to the addition og B). And Atraxa Super friends gets out of hand REAL quickly.
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This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
I agree that it’s an issue of degree with the people playing. And, I’m usually on the one side of the argument myself. If someone is trying to beat me over the head with a 5-color combo deck, get ready to see some Ruination. If I am trying to compete at a Control/Combo table with a Boros deck, prepare to see Boil and Pyroblast from the Sunforger.
But the segment of people who are trying to reach that level with a 4-color deck just seems non-existent to me. These new Commanders are enough toward the casual end that it’s pretty safe to assume from someone sleeving one up that they don’t want to spend the first few turns of the game counterspelling hate cards. Although from people mentioning Nekusar as in this realm, I’m not sure exactly what qualifies to some people. But from my eye on the EDH community as it exists for public games (LGS, online, what have you), I think it’s safe to assume that if you queue up against someone with Breya in the Command Zone (not to mention 40+ lands in their deck, as above), then you owe it to them to be a little bit more creative than just tutoring for one card that they have to answer on the spot or lose to, and writing it off as their problem when they don’t have the answer.
I do have essentially the same view re Iona, it’s just that Mono-Blue is actually good, and you can bet that you will see the Arcane Lab’s, Teferi’s, Back to Basics, and so on, from a competitive Mono-U deck. Also, Iona is highly effective naming Blue, even against a Control deck of 2-3 colors.
Actually 3 of the 5 new commanders are wicked strong...
Yidris Storm is a thing to behold... and Yidris Eldrazi gets stupid fast.
Breya is a combo machine. You can easily fill Breya with a bunch of infinite combos.
Atraxa Stax is actually quite oppressive and brutal. Not quite as fast as Derevi but much more viscious (due to the addition og B). And Atraxa Super friends gets out of hand REAL quickly.
I know right, its not like the front page of this section of the board has active threads discussing how brutal Atraxa can be as a stax deck, which degenerate strategy to build Yidris around, or how many combos is too many combos in Breya. /sarcasm
Snow, you nailed it on the head. They aren't tier 1, but a deck doesn't need to be tier 1 to be good or do stupidly powerful things, this is commander. NBL hate is a perfectly legitimate answer to 75% builds, and the decks discussed on this board are aimed at that, and from the OP's description that seems like what his meta is made of. The Kings aren't as crazy and are usually just group hug of some variety, so you probably aren't going to need NBL hate against them (and they answer it themselves anyway by drawing the player cards and letting them lay extra lands, so they can actually recover from ruination if they have already laid out the Kings). Against the one that nobody plays, well, its either made to zerg rush the table so your probably better off wrathing them then firing ruination off, or its jank that you just have to sort of keep an eye on. Or you can blow up their lands if they name you. Naming you is basically pointing at you and saying "You. Tonight.", so retaliation is fair game. It should be expected by anyone running a deck that functions by targeting a player, be it Voltron, infect, or soldier girl.
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Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Yidris storm is worse than Grixis storm w Nicol Bolas, for the very reason that it's not bothered very much by non-basic hate. It doesn't need to run things like Sylvan Library and Carpet of Flowers. A lot of Grixis storm decks will have 7+ basic Island for High Tide, and then a bunch of Mountain and Swamp, because why not. It doesn't run utility lands like Academy Ruins, Tower, and Volrath's either, because you know, it's the fair decks that run that.
I'm also fairly certain that any variant of Breya combo is worse than Sharuum, either in consistency or disruptibility. Who needs permanents to stay in play to combo off?
But by all means, if people in your area are sleeving up 4-color decks with 3-color win conditions, go ahead and hate it out. I just highly doubt that the player segment who does this is the same player segment that is giddy to finally have 4-color generals. Players with these generals are much more likely than the mean to have decks that don't mind their opponents across the table playing things.
And Atraxa stax? Super friends? If people think these decks can only be stopped by land denial, or are even more ambitious than average, then it seems like just making any alterations to the precon invites people to solitaire you out. It's probably from the same crowd that can't figure out how Nekusar can ever be beaten. Anything other than creature beats, just wipe lands evidently.
Around me, people are totally jazzed to be playing 4 color generals, even if they've just changed their general, landbase, and added a few cards. We don't have a lot of people building the most competitive version of a deck possible. I mean, the logical conclusion is that you end up playing one of about six highly competitive decks.
Around me, competitive players get their jollies in Standard and Modern. EDH around here is about building a sweet, vaguely unique machine.
No one is saying that nonbasic hate is the only way to disrupt these decks. I was just asking if people think it's going to be worthwhile in their meta, and moreover, whether it fits in with your group's understanding of what's okay to do at an EDH table. Again, we seem to be playing vastly, vastly different versions of EDH.
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I think it is more that I tend to play on either end of the spectrum, or at least consider opponents that way.
If it is on the more fun side, then I'm with you there. I just don't think it's in that group's idea of what it's ok to do at an EDH table, as you said it.
And for the competitive side, yeah, none of the dozen or so decks you're pigeon-holed into running are 4-color.
The difference is that the “problem with your deck” in this instance is simply that it’s 4-colors. You need to do nothing other than to have the desire to cast the General Wizards gave you in the box to be grabbing your ankles after a Ruination.
The problem with a GY deck that folds to GY hate can be solved by the player playing around it, not overextending, you know, skill. The resolution to the problem of the Boros deck being hosed by Ward of Bones is to either pack some artifact hate, or learn to anticipate it. You know, skill. The only decision involved in whether you’ll get blown out by nbl hate playing a 4-color deck is whether to run said 4-color deck in the first place, or some other deck.
You don't contradict yourself by saying this? A 4-color deck can't learn to anticipate nbl-hate or play around it by adding more basics, counters, not over extending? You know, skill...
The difference is that the “problem with your deck” in this instance is simply that it’s 4-colors. You need to do nothing other than to have the desire to cast the General Wizards gave you in the box to be grabbing your ankles after a Ruination.
The problem with a GY deck that folds to GY hate can be solved by the player playing around it, not overextending, you know, skill. The resolution to the problem of the Boros deck being hosed by Ward of Bones is to either pack some artifact hate, or learn to anticipate it. You know, skill. The only decision involved in whether you’ll get blown out by nbl hate playing a 4-color deck is whether to run said 4-color deck in the first place, or some other deck.
You don't contradict yourself by saying this? A 4-color deck can't learn to anticipate nbl-hate or play around it by adding more basics, counters, not over extending? You know, skill...
I'm building on of the new Commanders, and yeah part of the testing is
"How does this deck goldfish under a t2 Blood Moon?" It didn't, so I made some changes.
"Does this have enough basics to still play after a From the Ashes or Wave of Vitriol?" It didn't (4 basics), so I made some cuts and bumped that up to 2 of each now.
"How does the deck goldfish under a t2 Back to Basics?"
The deck isn't competitive, but I made sure it still worked through NBL hate. It doesn't even feel like a different deck, the changes I had to make were minor. It really doesn't take that much for a 4/5 colour deck to play around NBL hate. It's a skill. Both in deckbuilding and playing.
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The difference is that the “problem with your deck” in this instance is simply that it’s 4-colors. You need to do nothing other than to have the desire to cast the General Wizards gave you in the box to be grabbing your ankles after a Ruination.
The problem with a GY deck that folds to GY hate can be solved by the player playing around it, not overextending, you know, skill. The resolution to the problem of the Boros deck being hosed by Ward of Bones is to either pack some artifact hate, or learn to anticipate it. You know, skill. The only decision involved in whether you’ll get blown out by nbl hate playing a 4-color deck is whether to run said 4-color deck in the first place, or some other deck.
You don't contradict yourself by saying this? A 4-color deck can't learn to anticipate nbl-hate or play around it by adding more basics, counters, not over extending? You know, skill...
The difference is that this doesn't work. Literally, the only decision to be made is whether to lose to NBL whenever it is played, or lose to the shuffler about 1 out of every 4 games. It might be a skill deciding between those two, as a false choice, but the real thing someone would do is drop the deck and play 3 or fewer colors.
So you can presume pretty safely that if someone is playing a 4-color deck, then they are doing something other than making the best deck choices. They are exploring some fun factor. If they wanted to skillfully navigate between the advantages of playing more colors versus the advantages of playing around nbl hate, that would have just led them to playing a different deck. Four and five color are casual, at least in that respect, basically from inception onward.
The difference is that this doesn't work. Literally, the only decision to be made is whether to lose to NBL whenever it is played, or lose to the shuffler about 1 out of every 4 games.
This is grossly incorrect.
In Atraxa, I play ten Basic Lands. My fetch land activations will find a Basic Land half the time. Problems with color consistency are rare, and not significantly improved by adding more nonbasic color fixing (last time I had color problems, I did not have a single Basic Land out - I simply could not produce black mana.)
I play around nonbasic land hate simply because it is a good general practice, with very little cost (& I am the only player in my area to actually play nonbasic hate) Problems with color production in every three, five, and now four color deck I have played are so small as to be nonexistent.
Even those on a budget can still reasonably play around nonbasic hate with little issue. If it ever becomes an issue for me in Commander, I will probably just add more Artifact mana sources.
The difference is that the “problem with your deck” in this instance is simply that it’s 4-colors. You need to do nothing other than to have the desire to cast the General Wizards gave you in the box to be grabbing your ankles after a Ruination.
The problem with a GY deck that folds to GY hate can be solved by the player playing around it, not overextending, you know, skill. The resolution to the problem of the Boros deck being hosed by Ward of Bones is to either pack some artifact hate, or learn to anticipate it. You know, skill. The only decision involved in whether you’ll get blown out by nbl hate playing a 4-color deck is whether to run said 4-color deck in the first place, or some other deck.
You don't contradict yourself by saying this? A 4-color deck can't learn to anticipate nbl-hate or play around it by adding more basics, counters, not over extending? You know, skill...
The difference is that this doesn't work. Literally, the only decision to be made is whether to lose to NBL whenever it is played, or lose to the shuffler about 1 out of every 4 games. It might be a skill deciding between those two, as a false choice, but the real thing someone would do is drop the deck and play 3 or fewer colors.
So you can presume pretty safely that if someone is playing a 4-color deck, then they are doing something other than making the best deck choices. They are exploring some fun factor. If they wanted to skillfully navigate between the advantages of playing more colors versus the advantages of playing around nbl hate, that would have just led them to playing a different deck. Four and five color are casual, at least in that respect, basically from inception onward.
I have a mono-brown deck that dies horrible to Merciless Eviction and other destroy all artifacts type effects, but I don't drop my deck just because of the fact. It's a big risk, but I still like the deck and I try to defend against my weakness by playing stuff like Darksteel Forge and Jester's Cap, I guess 4c deck can do the same - like @Muspellsheimr is doing.
The difference is that this doesn't work. Literally, the only decision to be made is whether to lose to NBL whenever it is played, or lose to the shuffler about 1 out of every 4 games.
This is grossly incorrect.
In Atraxa, I play ten Basic Lands. My fetch land activations will find a Basic Land half the time. Problems with color consistency are rare, and not significantly improved by adding more nonbasic color fixing (last time I had color problems, I did not have a single Basic Land out - I simply could not produce black mana.)
I play around nonbasic land hate simply because it is a good general practice, with very little cost (& I am the only player in my area to actually play nonbasic hate) Problems with color production in every three, five, and now four color deck I have played are so small as to be nonexistent.
Even those on a budget can still reasonably play around nonbasic hate with little issue. If it ever becomes an issue for me in Commander, I will probably just add more Artifact mana sources.
This has been my experience with 4/5 colour commander decks. I was surprised to hear Jusstice say that they were strictly casual. I ran a Horde of Notions deck that outpaced people even after Blood Moon hit the table. It just takes a bit of work.
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The difference is that the “problem with your deck” in this instance is simply that it’s 4-colors. You need to do nothing other than to have the desire to cast the General Wizards gave you in the box to be grabbing your ankles after a Ruination.
The problem with a GY deck that folds to GY hate can be solved by the player playing around it, not overextending, you know, skill. The resolution to the problem of the Boros deck being hosed by Ward of Bones is to either pack some artifact hate, or learn to anticipate it. You know, skill. The only decision involved in whether you’ll get blown out by nbl hate playing a 4-color deck is whether to run said 4-color deck in the first place, or some other deck.
You don't contradict yourself by saying this? A 4-color deck can't learn to anticipate nbl-hate or play around it by adding more basics, counters, not over extending? You know, skill...
The difference is that this doesn't work. Literally, the only decision to be made is whether to lose to NBL whenever it is played, or lose to the shuffler about 1 out of every 4 games. It might be a skill deciding between those two, as a false choice, but the real thing someone would do is drop the deck and play 3 or fewer colors.
So you can presume pretty safely that if someone is playing a 4-color deck, then they are doing something other than making the best deck choices. They are exploring some fun factor. If they wanted to skillfully navigate between the advantages of playing more colors versus the advantages of playing around nbl hate, that would have just led them to playing a different deck. Four and five color are casual, at least in that respect, basically from inception onward.
Except for the fact that five posters, including myself, have come in and told you that it does work because we've built the decks that way. Yes, nbl hate will set you back if you build right, but shouldn't lock you out without some bad luck. If you go greedy on nonbasic, or run the land package it comes with, you deserve getting hit by nbl for the former and it shouldn't be used against you for the latter.
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Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
It's important to note the exact costs of the cards. For instance a 5 color deck cannot
Hope to support necropotence cryptic command eternal witness grasp of fate and still intended to land it's red splash. So you make concessions and decide you don't need cryptic command or necro or w/e. As with most decks when your drawing your fetchlands your typically fine however running a large number of basics in these decks will give you many combinations of lands that do not allow you to cast your cards on time similar to Running too many colorless utility lands. If you think thier is not a drawback to playing any card you want and not paying attention to the colored costs at all your going to have issues. Even with fetchlands say your deck is skewed to have many blue cards but you draw a green black fetchland with a swamp and a Forest in your hand but you want to use enlighten tutor turn 1 to fetch sol ring. You now hav to choose between possibly top decking blue spells and being unable to cast them and not casting your enlighten tutor. With enough fixing you will often be fine and it very much depends on your splash but you will run into issues trying to support a a massive variation of different colors he deeper you go into each. Now if your 5 color deck has very few multi same colored cards it gets easier. So while some builds can indeed run perfectly fine and the benefits can outweigh the cons this is not always true. That being said I don't think non basic land hate is that much of an issue and in many of my 3 color decks I don't play around it depending on the hand if I have a counterspell up I want usea and watery grave and volc island not island, in fact playing around blood moon seems bad when I just played opened myself to other hate I find scarier like strip mine. I don't think the mana bases are much different than 3 color mana bases in this format all the same lands are the best lands. If your mono color you run cards like back to basics because they are good if they fit your strategy. As with most things in Magic the answer is "it depends" and whether or not you should use a 3 color or 4 color commander from a optimization stand point will vary from deck to deck based on your goal. At he end of the day I don't think you avoid playing extra colors because ruination I think if you avoid them it's because the commander is not as good or the strain on your mana base is not worth what the splash brings to your deck or a combination of both. Either way the same decks should be using blood moon and friends and I don't think blood moon being a thing is the reason you choose not to play a 4/5c deck.
Except for the fact that five posters, including myself, have come in and told you that it does work because we've built the decks that way. Yes, nbl hate will set you back if you build right, but shouldn't lock you out without some bad luck. If you go greedy on nonbasic, or run the land package it comes with, you deserve getting hit by nbl for the former and it shouldn't be used against you for the latter.
I’m not saying that it doesn’t “work” (whatever that means). I’m saying that it sucks. You can build a 4-color deck with 10x of each basic land, and it will “work”. It will also take you until the very late turns to get your 4th color in most of your games. But, it “works”.
My point is that for this player segment that is ok with sucking to the degree that their 4-color decks aren’t out of the game after a resolved Ruination, there is a near zero overlap with the segment of players who take NBL hate like that in the spirit of sporting good fun.
People running 4-color decks are doing so without much of a mind to optimization, as within the format taken as a whole, and so they are players who like to have the others at the table take turns with their lands still in play.
Except for the fact that five posters, including myself, have come in and told you that it does work because we've built the decks that way. Yes, nbl hate will set you back if you build right, but shouldn't lock you out without some bad luck. If you go greedy on nonbasic, or run the land package it comes with, you deserve getting hit by nbl for the former and it shouldn't be used against you for the latter.
I’m not saying that it doesn’t “work” (whatever that means). I’m saying that it sucks. You can build a 4-color deck with 10x of each basic land, and it will “work”. It will also take you until the very late turns to get your 4th color in most of your games. But, it “works”.
My point is that for this player segment that is ok with sucking to the degree that their 4-color decks aren’t out of the game after a resolved Ruination, there is a near zero overlap with the segment of players who take NBL hate like that in the spirit of sporting good fun.
People running 4-color decks are doing so without much of a mind to optimization, as within the format taken as a whole, and so they are players who like to have the others at the table take turns with their lands still in play.
Have you SEEN the active threads for Breya, Yidris, and Atraxa? You are saying they are not being optimized??? Heck, those 3 are being optimized to hell amd back again...
Your argument is kinda weak. No one is saying run 10 of every basic, but 2 of each+fetches is quite enough to get you the land you need, especially with artifact support as well...
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This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
Except for the fact that five posters, including myself, have come in and told you that it does work because we've built the decks that way. Yes, nbl hate will set you back if you build right, but shouldn't lock you out without some bad luck. If you go greedy on nonbasic, or run the land package it comes with, you deserve getting hit by nbl for the former and it shouldn't be used against you for the latter.
I’m not saying that it doesn’t “work” (whatever that means). I’m saying that it sucks. You can build a 4-color deck with 10x of each basic land, and it will “work”. It will also take you until the very late turns to get your 4th color in most of your games. But, it “works”.
My point is that for this player segment that is ok with sucking to the degree that their 4-color decks aren’t out of the game after a resolved Ruination, there is a near zero overlap with the segment of players who take NBL hate like that in the spirit of sporting good fun.
People running 4-color decks are doing so without much of a mind to optimization, as within the format taken as a whole, and so they are players who like to have the others at the table take turns with their lands still in play.
Its pretty clear that you have no idea what your talking about, and arguing with people who have actually built the decks makes you look like a fool. We've even told you HOW we build the mana base to not auto fold to nbl hate, and you resort to a strawman. That's not just a weak argument, its a declaration that you shouldn't be taken seriously. I don't see any reason to engage you further, as all the relevant points have been made and you've adopted the approach of plugging your fingers in your ears and ignoring them.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
1. If your group is generally okay with powerful-type plays, and if you're seeing lots of 4 color commanders, then cards like Ruination and Back to Basics might be a worthy include.
2. If you're playing one of these commanders, and if you're getting blown out by these cards, then there are ways to build your manabase to mitigate the hate.
3. If the 4 color players start changing their manabases to include more basics and fetch in a way that leaves them uncrippled after a Ruination, then maybe the Ruination is no longer the best use of a slot.
So, just like anything else. If you never see any spot removal in your meta, then you can probably get away with not including as many hexproof and shroud effects in your voltron deck. Once you see the spot removal in people's decks, then it's time to counteract it.
And generally, it seems like most groups are okay with the risk of nonbasic hate as a counterbalance to greedy manabases. That was what I was after more than anything.
I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
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Beating Face with Bane
Beatrice, the Golden Witch
I personally would rather see a game that has all players involved than a game with one or more players sitting on the sidelines because a one-shot hate card ruined their game. It why the core people I play with allow for extra free mulligans when after Vancouvering a few times has yielded a hand with 0-1 lands. We dont want anyone sitting out simply because RNG screwed over their opening hand.
The Mimeoplasm || Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher || Vial Smasher/Tymna Group Slug
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief || Talrand, Sky Summoner
Yidris - Unblockable Saboteurs || Kiki-Jiki, ETB breaker
Kess, Dissident Mage
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I haven't got a problem with Iona at all. I've got plenty of answers in my monoblue Kami deck. In other decks without access to counters, I would try to include a way to deal with it. I've never actually seen it at a table, though, so bully for me. But once I do, I'll be packing an answer, even if that answer is just politicking.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
On the flip side, my Glissa, the Traitor deck was in a game where Anafenza, the Foremost was one of the opponents. It was miserable, since it basically blanked my entire strategy.
One thing I've learned is that sometimes there are spells and strategies that are going to ruin you. I don't enjoy it when I'm on the receiving end, but I'm also not going to refrain from putting a hoser or two into my own decks. It's just one of the fundamentals of the game.
Indeed, that is a risk your taking. You get much smoother and consistent draws by only having to hit one color, in exchange you get blown out by one card (if you don't have any artifact based answer or counter magic or eldrazi) and you have the color's traditional weaknesses. Its part of the game, and its a popular card.
As I've said many times on this forum, as have many other people, if you have a playgroup you should, you know, talk. The OP actually gave us a decent amount of info on his playgroup, and the people rocking 4 color there are playing against Augustine, which is a deck that tries to make everyone at the table sit on the sidelines not playing, so they probably aren't just taking the precon out of the box and running it. That's exactly the sort of playgroup where busting out non basic hate is warranted, and should be expected. Hell, it should help hose the 3 color decks he mentioned a bit as well. If someone's bringing a precon to that group, they're going to fold to Nekusar, Augustine, and the like anyway. Now, if your group has a few guys running precons with minor upgrades and ***** manabases, you don't need to run nbl hate, because they're already playing with a handicap. Just like if your group has a bunch of solid graveyard decks you should run graveyard hate, but if there's a dude durdling with flashback spells and another trying to make soulshift a thing you shouldn't run the hate. In a meta where nbl hate is appropriate, Iona is absolutely fine.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
But the segment of people who are trying to reach that level with a 4-color deck just seems non-existent to me. These new Commanders are enough toward the casual end that it’s pretty safe to assume from someone sleeving one up that they don’t want to spend the first few turns of the game counterspelling hate cards. Although from people mentioning Nekusar as in this realm, I’m not sure exactly what qualifies to some people. But from my eye on the EDH community as it exists for public games (LGS, online, what have you), I think it’s safe to assume that if you queue up against someone with Breya in the Command Zone (not to mention 40+ lands in their deck, as above), then you owe it to them to be a little bit more creative than just tutoring for one card that they have to answer on the spot or lose to, and writing it off as their problem when they don’t have the answer.
I do have essentially the same view re Iona, it’s just that Mono-Blue is actually good, and you can bet that you will see the Arcane Lab’s, Teferi’s, Back to Basics, and so on, from a competitive Mono-U deck. Also, Iona is highly effective naming Blue, even against a Control deck of 2-3 colors.
Well I own thousands of cards and play anywhere from 5 to 8 decks, from mono to 5c, so I am not a rigid mono red stax player. I usually bring a few different decks of varying strengths, depending on who is playing. But as you well know, red is always weaker the longer the game runs. So if I'm playing someone on 4 or 5 colors, who's at a disadvantge? The game has different tools for different colors. Guess what tools red has? Obviously if someone is pulling his 4c deck from the original box, I won't play a vicious red stax deck. But to say that they didn't know, is nonsense.
Actually 3 of the 5 new commanders are wicked strong...
Yidris Storm is a thing to behold... and Yidris Eldrazi gets stupid fast.
Breya is a combo machine. You can easily fill Breya with a bunch of infinite combos.
Atraxa Stax is actually quite oppressive and brutal. Not quite as fast as Derevi but much more viscious (due to the addition og B). And Atraxa Super friends gets out of hand REAL quickly.
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
I know right, its not like the front page of this section of the board has active threads discussing how brutal Atraxa can be as a stax deck, which degenerate strategy to build Yidris around, or how many combos is too many combos in Breya. /sarcasm
Snow, you nailed it on the head. They aren't tier 1, but a deck doesn't need to be tier 1 to be good or do stupidly powerful things, this is commander. NBL hate is a perfectly legitimate answer to 75% builds, and the decks discussed on this board are aimed at that, and from the OP's description that seems like what his meta is made of. The Kings aren't as crazy and are usually just group hug of some variety, so you probably aren't going to need NBL hate against them (and they answer it themselves anyway by drawing the player cards and letting them lay extra lands, so they can actually recover from ruination if they have already laid out the Kings). Against the one that nobody plays, well, its either made to zerg rush the table so your probably better off wrathing them then firing ruination off, or its jank that you just have to sort of keep an eye on. Or you can blow up their lands if they name you. Naming you is basically pointing at you and saying "You. Tonight.", so retaliation is fair game. It should be expected by anyone running a deck that functions by targeting a player, be it Voltron, infect, or soldier girl.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I'm also fairly certain that any variant of Breya combo is worse than Sharuum, either in consistency or disruptibility. Who needs permanents to stay in play to combo off?
But by all means, if people in your area are sleeving up 4-color decks with 3-color win conditions, go ahead and hate it out. I just highly doubt that the player segment who does this is the same player segment that is giddy to finally have 4-color generals. Players with these generals are much more likely than the mean to have decks that don't mind their opponents across the table playing things.
And Atraxa stax? Super friends? If people think these decks can only be stopped by land denial, or are even more ambitious than average, then it seems like just making any alterations to the precon invites people to solitaire you out. It's probably from the same crowd that can't figure out how Nekusar can ever be beaten. Anything other than creature beats, just wipe lands evidently.
Around me, people are totally jazzed to be playing 4 color generals, even if they've just changed their general, landbase, and added a few cards. We don't have a lot of people building the most competitive version of a deck possible. I mean, the logical conclusion is that you end up playing one of about six highly competitive decks.
Around me, competitive players get their jollies in Standard and Modern. EDH around here is about building a sweet, vaguely unique machine.
No one is saying that nonbasic hate is the only way to disrupt these decks. I was just asking if people think it's going to be worthwhile in their meta, and moreover, whether it fits in with your group's understanding of what's okay to do at an EDH table. Again, we seem to be playing vastly, vastly different versions of EDH.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
If it is on the more fun side, then I'm with you there. I just don't think it's in that group's idea of what it's ok to do at an EDH table, as you said it.
And for the competitive side, yeah, none of the dozen or so decks you're pigeon-holed into running are 4-color.
You don't contradict yourself by saying this? A 4-color deck can't learn to anticipate nbl-hate or play around it by adding more basics, counters, not over extending? You know, skill...
I'm building on of the new Commanders, and yeah part of the testing is
"How does this deck goldfish under a t2 Blood Moon?" It didn't, so I made some changes.
"Does this have enough basics to still play after a From the Ashes or Wave of Vitriol?" It didn't (4 basics), so I made some cuts and bumped that up to 2 of each now.
"How does the deck goldfish under a t2 Back to Basics?"
The deck isn't competitive, but I made sure it still worked through NBL hate. It doesn't even feel like a different deck, the changes I had to make were minor. It really doesn't take that much for a 4/5 colour deck to play around NBL hate. It's a skill. Both in deckbuilding and playing.
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
The difference is that this doesn't work. Literally, the only decision to be made is whether to lose to NBL whenever it is played, or lose to the shuffler about 1 out of every 4 games. It might be a skill deciding between those two, as a false choice, but the real thing someone would do is drop the deck and play 3 or fewer colors.
So you can presume pretty safely that if someone is playing a 4-color deck, then they are doing something other than making the best deck choices. They are exploring some fun factor. If they wanted to skillfully navigate between the advantages of playing more colors versus the advantages of playing around nbl hate, that would have just led them to playing a different deck. Four and five color are casual, at least in that respect, basically from inception onward.
This is grossly incorrect.
In Atraxa, I play ten Basic Lands. My fetch land activations will find a Basic Land half the time. Problems with color consistency are rare, and not significantly improved by adding more nonbasic color fixing (last time I had color problems, I did not have a single Basic Land out - I simply could not produce black mana.)
I play around nonbasic land hate simply because it is a good general practice, with very little cost (& I am the only player in my area to actually play nonbasic hate) Problems with color production in every three, five, and now four color deck I have played are so small as to be nonexistent.
Even those on a budget can still reasonably play around nonbasic hate with little issue. If it ever becomes an issue for me in Commander, I will probably just add more Artifact mana sources.
A Dying Wish
To Rise Again
Chainer, Dementia Master
Muldrotha, the Gravetide
Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
I have a mono-brown deck that dies horrible to Merciless Eviction and other destroy all artifacts type effects, but I don't drop my deck just because of the fact. It's a big risk, but I still like the deck and I try to defend against my weakness by playing stuff like Darksteel Forge and Jester's Cap, I guess 4c deck can do the same - like @Muspellsheimr is doing.
This has been my experience with 4/5 colour commander decks. I was surprised to hear Jusstice say that they were strictly casual. I ran a Horde of Notions deck that outpaced people even after Blood Moon hit the table. It just takes a bit of work.
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
Except for the fact that five posters, including myself, have come in and told you that it does work because we've built the decks that way. Yes, nbl hate will set you back if you build right, but shouldn't lock you out without some bad luck. If you go greedy on nonbasic, or run the land package it comes with, you deserve getting hit by nbl for the former and it shouldn't be used against you for the latter.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Hope to support necropotence cryptic command eternal witness grasp of fate and still intended to land it's red splash. So you make concessions and decide you don't need cryptic command or necro or w/e. As with most decks when your drawing your fetchlands your typically fine however running a large number of basics in these decks will give you many combinations of lands that do not allow you to cast your cards on time similar to Running too many colorless utility lands. If you think thier is not a drawback to playing any card you want and not paying attention to the colored costs at all your going to have issues. Even with fetchlands say your deck is skewed to have many blue cards but you draw a green black fetchland with a swamp and a Forest in your hand but you want to use enlighten tutor turn 1 to fetch sol ring. You now hav to choose between possibly top decking blue spells and being unable to cast them and not casting your enlighten tutor. With enough fixing you will often be fine and it very much depends on your splash but you will run into issues trying to support a a massive variation of different colors he deeper you go into each. Now if your 5 color deck has very few multi same colored cards it gets easier. So while some builds can indeed run perfectly fine and the benefits can outweigh the cons this is not always true. That being said I don't think non basic land hate is that much of an issue and in many of my 3 color decks I don't play around it depending on the hand if I have a counterspell up I want usea and watery grave and volc island not island, in fact playing around blood moon seems bad when I just played opened myself to other hate I find scarier like strip mine. I don't think the mana bases are much different than 3 color mana bases in this format all the same lands are the best lands. If your mono color you run cards like back to basics because they are good if they fit your strategy. As with most things in Magic the answer is "it depends" and whether or not you should use a 3 color or 4 color commander from a optimization stand point will vary from deck to deck based on your goal. At he end of the day I don't think you avoid playing extra colors because ruination I think if you avoid them it's because the commander is not as good or the strain on your mana base is not worth what the splash brings to your deck or a combination of both. Either way the same decks should be using blood moon and friends and I don't think blood moon being a thing is the reason you choose not to play a 4/5c deck.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
I’m not saying that it doesn’t “work” (whatever that means). I’m saying that it sucks. You can build a 4-color deck with 10x of each basic land, and it will “work”. It will also take you until the very late turns to get your 4th color in most of your games. But, it “works”.
My point is that for this player segment that is ok with sucking to the degree that their 4-color decks aren’t out of the game after a resolved Ruination, there is a near zero overlap with the segment of players who take NBL hate like that in the spirit of sporting good fun.
People running 4-color decks are doing so without much of a mind to optimization, as within the format taken as a whole, and so they are players who like to have the others at the table take turns with their lands still in play.
Have you SEEN the active threads for Breya, Yidris, and Atraxa? You are saying they are not being optimized??? Heck, those 3 are being optimized to hell amd back again...
Your argument is kinda weak. No one is saying run 10 of every basic, but 2 of each+fetches is quite enough to get you the land you need, especially with artifact support as well...
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
Its pretty clear that you have no idea what your talking about, and arguing with people who have actually built the decks makes you look like a fool. We've even told you HOW we build the mana base to not auto fold to nbl hate, and you resort to a strawman. That's not just a weak argument, its a declaration that you shouldn't be taken seriously. I don't see any reason to engage you further, as all the relevant points have been made and you've adopted the approach of plugging your fingers in your ears and ignoring them.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
1. If your group is generally okay with powerful-type plays, and if you're seeing lots of 4 color commanders, then cards like Ruination and Back to Basics might be a worthy include.
2. If you're playing one of these commanders, and if you're getting blown out by these cards, then there are ways to build your manabase to mitigate the hate.
3. If the 4 color players start changing their manabases to include more basics and fetch in a way that leaves them uncrippled after a Ruination, then maybe the Ruination is no longer the best use of a slot.
So, just like anything else. If you never see any spot removal in your meta, then you can probably get away with not including as many hexproof and shroud effects in your voltron deck. Once you see the spot removal in people's decks, then it's time to counteract it.
And generally, it seems like most groups are okay with the risk of nonbasic hate as a counterbalance to greedy manabases. That was what I was after more than anything.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered