I have thrown together 2 tribal decks. A Gisa and Geralf zombies deck, and I have proxied the ur-dragon from the leaks. So far I am not impressed. By far the worst cards in the decks are the tribal creatures. Any help?
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I have dyslexia, no I am not going to spell check for you, yes you have to live with the horrors of it.
Tribal in edh is pretty tough man. There are many much more broken things you can be doing than most tribal strategies. I think running tribal is more for fun than anything else. If you are serious about winning you need to find a broken interaction within the tribe. I have seen a sliver deck that was pretty strong, tutoring up shadow and infect slivers out of nowhere but that's about it.
Tribal decks in commander need something more than tribal decks in other formats. Other formats can play merfolk for 4 turns, a bunch of lords, and win.
When you are at 40 life, the linear aggro deck doesn't work unless it is overly explosive. Especially in multiplayer, when you have to deal upwards of 120 damage with 3 opponents playing board wipes.
The EDH tribal decks that work are:
-Dragons (Combo/reanimator, usually with Scion of the Ur-Dragon and Worldgorger Dragon combo)
-Goblins (Goblin Lackey and other broken cards, Krenko, Mob Boss making exponential numbers of hasty goblins all getting buffed, several infinite combos)
-Elves (Fast, consistent, Ezuri, Renegade Leader protects against wraths and wins the game with a bunch of dorks, several infinite or nearly infinite combos, and broken things like Nature's Lore)
Slivers can be good, but are pretty slow and should not work if people play enough board wipes.
Zombies can be good, but you need to play it differently than the current Standard Zombie Deck. EDH Zombies is not fast enough to win like Goblins or Elves. Therefore, you need to do something broken.
Gisa and Geralf is a good commander, but instead of playing a bunch of lords and hoping to overwhelm your opponent, you need to make the game unfair. Fleshbag Marauder is one of the best Zombies with Gisa and Geralf since you can cast it over and over again. Gravecrawler + Rooftop Storm + sac outlet is a good way to get infinite sacrifices (for infinite mana, or infinitely large creature, or just to win on the spot). Since you cast Gravecrawler every time, you can make infinite storm too.
Disruptive zombies like Black Cat and Noxious Ghoul can help you grind out your opponents.
Huge effects like Zombie Apocalypse, Endless Ranks of the Dead, or any Liliana planeswalker will win the game at a certain point, so you don't need to actually beat your opponents with a bunch of lords and beefy zombies.
Soldier tribal with darien king of kjeldor is actually pretty good, too, if you have the stones to play that sort of game. Plays out more like a token deck, however.
They key thing to remember for edh tribal is that small and efficient creatures aren't nearly as powerful as the long term card advantage or the late game powerhouse synergy types. For example, tribal allies with efficient 60 card format drops like kazandu blademaster isn't that impressive...unless you go for (and protect, which 5 color can do well), but a few allies with a sea gate loremaster out is a very different story indeed. Also, some tribes that are too slow in 20 life formats can be a beating in edh. For example, horde of notions stax can grind out just about every other deck out there fairly easily.
Agree with everything said above. Thing is, I think tribal decks HAVE to - outside of golbins and elves - make some concessions to be effective in this format. Yeah, you're running a human or merfolk deck, and it can be decent, but can you ramp or draw enough with it? Solemn Simulacrum might have to become an honorary member. Changelings find their way into decks to bolster numbers, too. Sometimes it's just being able to find a critical mass of creatures you want to play, ones that offer enough impact on the board and ones that offer some resiliency because this format is all about not getting too attached to your creatures; they will die.
I have found as someone who enjoys tribal decks in every format that sometimes the question isn't "how much damage can I do before the worst happens?" As if you were thinking in aggro terms, but rather "how much can I do ONCE the worst has happened?" How fast can you rebuild your board? Can you bring back or search for more engines and lords? Can your spell-suite continue without a heavy board investment? In my case, I've found vampires through B's recursion tend to operate fairly well for tribal. Not for an aggro deck as they were in standard, but low-threat, consistent pressure with draining life effects, sorcery and instant speed tribal effects and flyers. Pressure early, build your mana, curve out bigger threats and close out late.
Werewolves on the other hand lack the recursion and can't rely on only committing one or two members to a board at a time. If they don't go for the throat early, it's over. Neither is tier-1 competitive, but you don't really find many tribal decks that are. If you want to play tribal, you just have to plan for the worst and ask yourself what happens when the boardwipes drop or the creature-engines aren't drawn. If your tribe can continue from that point, then you are at least still in the game.
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Vorthos-player with way too much time on his hands and a love of thematic decks.
EDH - Yes, Each One is Named After a Song. I love tying music to my decks.
You are playbtwo tribes that are good but dont exactly combo as well. Zombies are a good swarm deck and dragns are more of a solo creature (well khans changed that but not entirely)
Anyway. You may wantbto look at other tribes that feed off of each other. Elfball tribal can be very deadly. Goblins as well, but thehbstill feel more like a swarm deck.
In my opinion, the big 5 tribes are Elves, Goblins, Slivers, Wizards, and Zombies; they have enough good tribal cards and enough good synergy to make them worthwhile to build around. Elementals, Dragons, Merfolk, Treefolk, etc. are okay as a subtheme, but they are really second class relative to the big 5. I've built "Dragon tribal" where I only ended up with 15 Dragons in the deck (which may go up depending on what cards come out in C17), but it was obvious that I couldn't run 25-30 Dragons in the deck and expect to be able to compete.
My scarecrow deck (link in my sig) is a Reaper King deck. But the scarecrows are not the main theme, or even second theme. Its the thrid.
First theme is overall good stuff (In a spooky halloween theme. ) followed by a sac recurr theme. Both support the 3rd theme which is scarecrows replacing removal because of Reaper Kings ability. Since there are so few good scarecrows (2 good ones, 2 to 3 ok ones, and one banned one) and a few changlings to cover some numbers, you have to use blink and recurring to abuse their ability.
Reaper King is way too far off to be a good commander. But it can play what it can to be a good stuff deck with control elements.
My elf tribal is my strongest deck.
It relies heavily on combos. I also have a faerie deck that relies on combos wins. I have a goblin deck that wins by either a horde of goblins, or direct damage (the direct damage spells tend to catch people off guard when they're concentrating on 30 or so goblin tokens). I also have a cat tribal that rarely wins, because there's just not that many good cats. But it's fun to play.
I only have 1 tribal deck and it's Rebels, Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero as the commander helps a ton as I don't mind the board getting wiped and I just recently added Frontline Medic to the deck so I can now swing with 3 creatures and then wrath the board with one of my 5 wrath spells in the deck and still maintain my board of creatures, if I don't have the Medic out who cares Lin Sivvi brings back my rebels from the graveyard to the bottom of my library, the deck also has an equipment sub-theme. The only thing the really hoses me is mass creature exile effects but it's one of my favorite decks to play. (I see I need to update my deck as the one posted is a little outdated.)
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EDH DECKS:
GBW Ghave - BWR Kaalia - UBG Mineoplasm - URG Riku - GRW Uril - GBRProssh, I need food - BWU Oloro Lock - UGW Derevi Blink - RBU Nekusar, the Wheeler - UBRWGProgenitus - BR Lyzolda - UBGisa & Geralf Zombies - UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest +1 Counters matter - W Lin Sivvi - BWU Sydri Artifact Control - RWU Narset, the Attacker - GRW Mayael, the Cheater - RWUG Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis Landfall - GBW Doran, I like Big Butts -UR Mizzix Buyback BWR Edgar and his Vamps
I have a Gisa and Geralf deck myself. The trick is run as few zombies as possible lol. I dont like that my advice is that but essentially the number of "good" zombies is very few. You want the ones that give you the most bang for the buck and you really only intend to be casting a zombie each turn so you dont need like 30+ zombies to have access to one zombie in grave at a time.
I think I am down to like... 13-14 zombies or something in my build at this point (list in my signature). In a lot of cases as long as you have a few zombies you have enough zombies. So run the best of them and then run cards that have good synergy with self milling.
I have two decks at this point that I would consider tribal and for both I only run as many cards of the tribe as I need to get by.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Outside of goblin and elf swarm decks, to my mind if you're dedicated to running tribal, you will sacrifice some power. To me, what ISB has is tribal, but far less strict tribal. I guess, similar to a Vorthos deck or theme deck, it really depends how firmly you want to adhere to theme. Doing so to the letter will invariably lose you some value, as there's no guarantee that the best tribal fits are the best overall fits for any particular deck.
I'm a slave to theme for my tribal decks - I run Goblin, Dragon, Zombie, Angel/Human. Of these, only goblin and Angel/Human are particularly powerful. Dragon can win games, but it's slow, Zombie I don't have the best picks for and is also slow. Goblin is super quick Krenko, so will either close out a game quick or hit mid game and stall. Angel/Human is not necessarily built tribal, as it's more of a control shell with reanimation built in (the only reason it's humans and angels is Bruna's cast trigger), but it's fun and works really well.
I've also had scarecrows in the past, and they grew boring very quickly.
I've also had scarecrows in the past, and they grew boring very quickly.
#offended.
Not really. As you said, mine is like a theme deck for halloween and I use them as utility. Im curious, how tribal were you in scarecrows? Back when edh first started I was full on and that was terrible, even then. It was just like a 100 card draft deck really.
#sorrynotsorry
Haha, my apologies. Tbh if there were better scarecrows I'd still have the deck in a better form. As it is the only remnant I have is Scarecrone.
I went full scarecrow/changeling. Like, as long as I landed Reaper and kept him on the field anything else that landed was dead instantly. It got boring very quickly. The only real challenge was a solid mana base to hit 5c quick and keep enough mana floating to play scarecrows.
I really did like the theme though, and would LOVE to see a revival.
I have a Gisa and Geralf deck myself. The trick is run as few zombies as possible lol. I dont like that my advice is that but essentially the number of "good" zombies is very few. You want the ones that give you the most bang for the buck and you really only intend to be casting a zombie each turn so you dont need like 30+ zombies to have access to one zombie in grave at a time.
I think I am down to like... 13-14 zombies or something in my build at this point (list in my signature). In a lot of cases as long as you have a few zombies you have enough zombies. So run the best of them and then run cards that have good synergy with self milling.
I have two decks at this point that I would consider tribal and for both I only run as many cards of the tribe as I need to get by.
Don't play G&G but I have (or had) a Horde of Notions deck with a similar experience. Sure there is an elemental for every situation, but if 99% of the time I am just going to recast Omnath or Avenger then I need to make some cuts. "Tribal" doesn't mean all your non-land cards need to be part of the tribe.
Say you have a pile of zombies in your graveyard, which ones are you actually going to want to cast and which ones are just going to sit in your yard? That's similar to a card being a dead draw in a GY deck. Takes some playtesting and meta adjusting, but you should figure out what to cut pretty quick (use proxies for this!).
I looove tribal decks myself and I'll totally include bad cards just for flavor/theme, but I will cut the ones that I never actually get to use.
It's all about speed, protection and recursion. Goblins and elves are some of the best tribes in EDH due to their explosiveness, but stuff like werewolves and allies (ew) really struggle to stabilize themselves due to the nature of their creature types.
Your commander doesn't have to be part of that tribe; it just needs to enable a successful strategy.
In edh it's better to focus on the essence of a tribe rather than tribal itself. For example, zombies are really about inevitability. Armies of shambling corpses crossing the corn fields and abandoned dirt paths, with every one slain seemingly being replaced by another.
Spirits are often about draw go, combat tricks, and surprises, by comparison. Sometimes even control.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Aggro in general has issues in Commander because it's a 40-life multiplayer format. I mean, my Kemba only became cat tribal because she poops out kittehs every turn. Even then, there are (as of this writing) only two cat tribal cards (Regal Caracal and Raksha Golden Cub). So, I have to improvise:
With zombies, you do something similar. My best advice would be to consider Grave Pact and friends to basically keep card advantage (and more to the point creature advantage) on your side. As I mentioned, there are also universal tribal cards you can use, like Brass Herald and Coat of Arms. (It's a bit winmoar, but Army of the Damned plus COA equals 13 Emrakul-sized threats.)
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Well i made a tribal deck sticking to the tribal theme even if i have to use weaker cards.
Its all for fun. No need to be competitive.
My problem with your statement is that a deck is bad if you don't do anything. A lack of agency leaves the matches feeling very booring. I don't need to winn, but I need to have fun. That is my experience with zombie and dragon tribal decks so far.
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I have dyslexia, no I am not going to spell check for you, yes you have to live with the horrors of it.
Well i made a tribal deck sticking to the tribal theme even if i have to use weaker cards.
Its all for fun. No need to be competitive.
My problem with your statement is that a deck is bad if you don't do anything. A lack of agency leaves the matches feeling very booring. I don't need to winn, but I need to have fun. That is my experience with zombie and dragon tribal decks so far.
Well with my experience i managed to score some wins and had a blast playing with. I sued 2 diferent type of Zombie decks. Mono Black Swarm or mill/combo. Both worked in some capacity. It all depends of the field your facing. These zombies decks msot likelly won't stand a chance agaisnt a more pwoerfull field(thats why i have a deck for sutch fields).
Playing agaisnt other decks of simialr pwoer is really fun. Hell the most fun matches i ever had was with my Gisa zombie Horde agaisnt a friend's Soldier tribal deck. It was so cool how thematic and how even both were.
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I have thrown together 2 tribal decks. A Gisa and Geralf zombies deck, and I have proxied the ur-dragon from the leaks. So far I am not impressed. By far the worst cards in the decks are the tribal creatures. Any help?
When you are at 40 life, the linear aggro deck doesn't work unless it is overly explosive. Especially in multiplayer, when you have to deal upwards of 120 damage with 3 opponents playing board wipes.
The EDH tribal decks that work are:
-Dragons (Combo/reanimator, usually with Scion of the Ur-Dragon and Worldgorger Dragon combo)
-Goblins (Goblin Lackey and other broken cards, Krenko, Mob Boss making exponential numbers of hasty goblins all getting buffed, several infinite combos)
-Elves (Fast, consistent, Ezuri, Renegade Leader protects against wraths and wins the game with a bunch of dorks, several infinite or nearly infinite combos, and broken things like Nature's Lore)
Slivers can be good, but are pretty slow and should not work if people play enough board wipes.
Zombies can be good, but you need to play it differently than the current Standard Zombie Deck. EDH Zombies is not fast enough to win like Goblins or Elves. Therefore, you need to do something broken.
Gisa and Geralf is a good commander, but instead of playing a bunch of lords and hoping to overwhelm your opponent, you need to make the game unfair. Fleshbag Marauder is one of the best Zombies with Gisa and Geralf since you can cast it over and over again.
Gravecrawler + Rooftop Storm + sac outlet is a good way to get infinite sacrifices (for infinite mana, or infinitely large creature, or just to win on the spot). Since you cast Gravecrawler every time, you can make infinite storm too.
Disruptive zombies like Black Cat and Noxious Ghoul can help you grind out your opponents.
Huge effects like Zombie Apocalypse, Endless Ranks of the Dead, or any Liliana planeswalker will win the game at a certain point, so you don't need to actually beat your opponents with a bunch of lords and beefy zombies.
Hope this helps!
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
They key thing to remember for edh tribal is that small and efficient creatures aren't nearly as powerful as the long term card advantage or the late game powerhouse synergy types. For example, tribal allies with efficient 60 card format drops like kazandu blademaster isn't that impressive...unless you go for (and protect, which 5 color can do well), but a few allies with a sea gate loremaster out is a very different story indeed. Also, some tribes that are too slow in 20 life formats can be a beating in edh. For example, horde of notions stax can grind out just about every other deck out there fairly easily.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
I have found as someone who enjoys tribal decks in every format that sometimes the question isn't "how much damage can I do before the worst happens?" As if you were thinking in aggro terms, but rather "how much can I do ONCE the worst has happened?" How fast can you rebuild your board? Can you bring back or search for more engines and lords? Can your spell-suite continue without a heavy board investment? In my case, I've found vampires through B's recursion tend to operate fairly well for tribal. Not for an aggro deck as they were in standard, but low-threat, consistent pressure with draining life effects, sorcery and instant speed tribal effects and flyers. Pressure early, build your mana, curve out bigger threats and close out late.
Werewolves on the other hand lack the recursion and can't rely on only committing one or two members to a board at a time. If they don't go for the throat early, it's over. Neither is tier-1 competitive, but you don't really find many tribal decks that are. If you want to play tribal, you just have to plan for the worst and ask yourself what happens when the boardwipes drop or the creature-engines aren't drawn. If your tribe can continue from that point, then you are at least still in the game.
EDH - Yes, Each One is Named After a Song. I love tying music to my decks.
B Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief B - Fear of the Dark
WG Sigarda, Heron's Grace WG - Strength in Numbers
RG Xenagos, God of Revels RG - Fullmoon (It's werewolves)
RW Archangel Avacyn // Avacyn, the Purifier RW - The End is Nigh
60 Card Kitchen Table Decks
WUB Avacyn, Spirit Ferrier
RG Arlinn Kord's Howlpack
Anyway. You may wantbto look at other tribes that feed off of each other. Elfball tribal can be very deadly. Goblins as well, but thehbstill feel more like a swarm deck.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
First theme is overall good stuff (In a spooky halloween theme. ) followed by a sac recurr theme. Both support the 3rd theme which is scarecrows replacing removal because of Reaper Kings ability. Since there are so few good scarecrows (2 good ones, 2 to 3 ok ones, and one banned one) and a few changlings to cover some numbers, you have to use blink and recurring to abuse their ability.
Reaper King is way too far off to be a good commander. But it can play what it can to be a good stuff deck with control elements.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/765117-xenagos-god-of-dragons
It relies heavily on combos. I also have a faerie deck that relies on combos wins. I have a goblin deck that wins by either a horde of goblins, or direct damage (the direct damage spells tend to catch people off guard when they're concentrating on 30 or so goblin tokens). I also have a cat tribal that rarely wins, because there's just not that many good cats. But it's fun to play.
But...yes. The dragons are a little on the average side.
GBW Ghave - BWR Kaalia - UBG Mineoplasm - URG Riku - GRW Uril - GBR Prossh, I need food - BWU Oloro Lock - UGW Derevi Blink - RBU Nekusar, the Wheeler - UBRWG Progenitus - BR Lyzolda - UB Gisa & Geralf Zombies - UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest +1 Counters matter - W Lin Sivvi - BWU Sydri Artifact Control - RWU Narset, the Attacker - GRW Mayael, the Cheater - RWUG Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis Landfall - GBW Doran, I like Big Butts - UR Mizzix Buyback BWR Edgar and his Vamps
I think I am down to like... 13-14 zombies or something in my build at this point (list in my signature). In a lot of cases as long as you have a few zombies you have enough zombies. So run the best of them and then run cards that have good synergy with self milling.
I have two decks at this point that I would consider tribal and for both I only run as many cards of the tribe as I need to get by.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
I'm a slave to theme for my tribal decks - I run Goblin, Dragon, Zombie, Angel/Human. Of these, only goblin and Angel/Human are particularly powerful. Dragon can win games, but it's slow, Zombie I don't have the best picks for and is also slow. Goblin is super quick Krenko, so will either close out a game quick or hit mid game and stall. Angel/Human is not necessarily built tribal, as it's more of a control shell with reanimation built in (the only reason it's humans and angels is Bruna's cast trigger), but it's fun and works really well.
I've also had scarecrows in the past, and they grew boring very quickly.
#offended.
Not really. As you said, mine is like a theme deck for halloween and I use them as utility. Im curious, how tribal were you in scarecrows? Back when edh first started I was full on and that was terrible, even then. It was just like a 100 card draft deck really.
Haha, my apologies. Tbh if there were better scarecrows I'd still have the deck in a better form. As it is the only remnant I have is Scarecrone.
I went full scarecrow/changeling. Like, as long as I landed Reaper and kept him on the field anything else that landed was dead instantly. It got boring very quickly. The only real challenge was a solid mana base to hit 5c quick and keep enough mana floating to play scarecrows.
I really did like the theme though, and would LOVE to see a revival.
Don't play G&G but I have (or had) a Horde of Notions deck with a similar experience. Sure there is an elemental for every situation, but if 99% of the time I am just going to recast Omnath or Avenger then I need to make some cuts. "Tribal" doesn't mean all your non-land cards need to be part of the tribe.
Say you have a pile of zombies in your graveyard, which ones are you actually going to want to cast and which ones are just going to sit in your yard? That's similar to a card being a dead draw in a GY deck. Takes some playtesting and meta adjusting, but you should figure out what to cut pretty quick (use proxies for this!).
I looove tribal decks myself and I'll totally include bad cards just for flavor/theme, but I will cut the ones that I never actually get to use.
Its all for fun. No need to be competitive.
Your commander doesn't have to be part of that tribe; it just needs to enable a successful strategy.
Spirits are often about draw go, combat tricks, and surprises, by comparison. Sometimes even control.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Brass Herald
Cavern of Souls
Coat of Arms
Konda's Banner
Metallic Mimic
Obelisk of Urd
Stoneforge Masterwork
And a few things like Cathars' Crusade and Spear of Heliod provide a universal +N/+N.
With zombies, you do something similar. My best advice would be to consider Grave Pact and friends to basically keep card advantage (and more to the point creature advantage) on your side. As I mentioned, there are also universal tribal cards you can use, like Brass Herald and Coat of Arms. (It's a bit winmoar, but Army of the Damned plus COA equals 13 Emrakul-sized threats.)
On phasing:
My problem with your statement is that a deck is bad if you don't do anything. A lack of agency leaves the matches feeling very booring. I don't need to winn, but I need to have fun. That is my experience with zombie and dragon tribal decks so far.
Well with my experience i managed to score some wins and had a blast playing with. I sued 2 diferent type of Zombie decks. Mono Black Swarm or mill/combo. Both worked in some capacity. It all depends of the field your facing. These zombies decks msot likelly won't stand a chance agaisnt a more pwoerfull field(thats why i have a deck for sutch fields).
Playing agaisnt other decks of simialr pwoer is really fun. Hell the most fun matches i ever had was with my Gisa zombie Horde agaisnt a friend's Soldier tribal deck. It was so cool how thematic and how even both were.