You know when you start building your last deck of what you’re gonna take with you, and you aren’t going to dismantle anything else you sleeved up, so you end up plugging in holes with “not optimized” cards?
I had an Ishai/Kraum deck that was just leftovers, and it always did well. This card saved me many times.
This card needed to cost 3 mana. If it had, it would have been a staple in multiple formats, and still not broken. WOTC really boned up making atarka's and dromoka's command cost 2 and KC cost 3, and this and silumgar's overpriced. I don't even remember the other one. Silumgar's woulda been rock solid at 4 too, at least in standard.
Alternatively, if the CMC was up to 3 and it was permanents, it would be quite good, or even if the counter clause was just counter target spell.
I'll never understand who decides what cards to push, but this card was a flop.
At its cost I just can't justify playing it over so many other options. Despite how much I love the promo art, and will probably never get rid of them.
I’ve added this to my Dragonlord Ojutai deck, and not just for flavor reasons. It’s been a phenomenal add, hitting commanders and drawing a card or returning a hate bear.
I don’t really see how it could cost any less with the recursion mode, but cost isn’t something I get hung up on too much anyways. Very solid card.
This card needed to cost 3 mana. If it had, it would have been a staple in multiple formats, and still not broken. WOTC really boned up making atarka's and dromoka's command cost 2 and KC cost 3, and this and silumgar's overpriced. I don't even remember the other one. Silumgar's woulda been rock solid at 4 too, at least in standard.
Alternatively, if the CMC was up to 3 and it was permanents, it would be quite good, or even if the counter clause was just counter target spell.
I'll never understand who decides what cards to push, but this card was a flop.
At its cost I just can't justify playing it over so many other options. Despite how much I love the promo art, and will probably never get rid of them.
In the card's defense, Counter Trarget (creature)spell + draw a card at 3cmc would be broken as hell.
Just picture Cryptic Command in modern UW- and Jeskai control being 3cmc!
Oh really, 3 cmc counter creature and draw a card would be broken?
Exclude would love a word with you from its couch in the bulk bin
I'm talking more about getting one of those options; if it cost 4 but could counter any spell, it'd be fine. If it cost 3 but had its existing text it would be fine.
If it cost 3 but could counter any spell it would have been probably too good but only because it'd have pushed burn out of the format
Oh really, 3 cmc counter creature and draw a card would be broken?
Exclude would love a word with you from its couch in the bulk bin
I'm talking more about getting one of those options; if it cost 4 but could counter any spell, it'd be fine. If it cost 3 but had its existing text it would be fine.
If it cost 3 but could counter any spell it would have been probably too good but only because it'd have pushed burn out of the format
And the more relevant recursion ability? At instant speed? Not saying it’d be broken, but modal vs. non-modal isn’t exactly and apples to apples comparison.
You know when you start building your last deck of what you’re gonna take with you, and you aren’t going to dismantle anything else you sleeved up, so you end up plugging in holes with “not optimized” cards?
I had an Ishai/Kraum deck that was just leftovers, and it always did well. This card saved me many times.
Three of its four modes (and you pick two) are card parity, so when you choose two of those, you get card advantage. (And of course, some lifegain decks might have something that turns lifegain into card draw, though it might be a bit much to include Necropotence in this deck, though you can just Rector/Replenish it.)
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
And the more relevant recursion ability? At instant speed? Not saying it’d be broken, but modal vs. non-modal isn’t exactly and apples to apples comparison.
Sure, but multicolor vs monocolor isn't exactly apples to apples either.
Considering gain 4 is terrible and the recursion is kind of narrow, I think at 3 cmc this would have been interesting, and at 4 cmc it's pretty trash. That or make it 4cmc but make it a universal counter, in which case it compares to dismiss.
And the more relevant recursion ability? At instant speed? Not saying it’d be broken, but modal vs. non-modal isn’t exactly and apples to apples comparison.
Sure, but multicolor vs monocolor isn't exactly apples to apples either.
Considering gain 4 is terrible and the recursion is kind of narrow, I think at 3 cmc this would have been interesting, and at 4 cmc it's pretty trash. That or make it 4cmc but make it a universal counter, in which case it compares to dismiss.
Pretty much my exact assessment, thanks
I don't think this card is good enough in EDH unless there's a 2 CMC dude who turn it into an engine, which I don't think there is.
And the more relevant recursion ability? At instant speed? Not saying it’d be broken, but modal vs. non-modal isn’t exactly and apples to apples comparison.
Sure, but multicolor vs monocolor isn't exactly apples to apples either.
Considering gain 4 is terrible and the recursion is kind of narrow, I think at 3 cmc this would have been interesting, and at 4 cmc it's pretty trash. That or make it 4cmc but make it a universal counter, in which case it compares to dismiss.
Well, Exclude is completely dead until a creature spell is played? Who cares what color the spell is, you are tied to a specific scenario where Exclude even functions, whereas OC allows flexibility, and by flexibility I mean never dead? But, hey, to each their own.
Well, Exclude is completely dead until a creature spell is played? Who cares what color the spell is, you are tied to a specific scenario where Exclude even functions, whereas OC allows flexibility, and by flexibility I mean never dead? But, hey, to each their own.
It’s not trash, though.
Trash is a bit harsh, but put it this way - I've made tons of WUx control decks over the years, many with loads of counterspells, and I've never really seriously considered Ojutai's command despite having it in my collection since it was released. Sure, there are plenty of worse cards, but there are enough better counterspells that, barring theme, budget, or some really specific scenario where the recursion mode is amazing for some reason - I don't think it's ever correct to run it.
I think worrying about a card being dead until someone casts a creature is a little silly. For one thing - obviously someone is going to cast a creature at some point, we've all* got one sitting in the command zone. For a second thing, the difference between an uncastable card and one that is technically castable but sucks isn't necessarily that wide. I'd rather sit on an exclude until the right moment, than fire off an Ojutai's Command as a ritual of rejuvenation. And I'd rather run a different, more flexible, and ideally cheaper counterspell than either of them, because I want my spells to reliably do the thing I need when I need it.
I think even just at 4 cmc we have too many really powerful things to do--
cryptic, summary dismissal, venser, shaper savant, that kinda stuff
Even Dismiss I think is likely much better than Ojutai's command most of the time.
Generally though, I would want to slide down the mana cost though. we have so many great 2 and 3 cmc counters available.
It is true there are not a lot of re-animation options especially instant speed ones in these colors, so that's really the thing that jumps out at me. If you are confident you will use the two good modes of ojutai's command simultaneously and consistently (counter creature + reanimate 2-drop) then I think it could be really good.
The clutch thing there is like - you need to be running in the vicinity of 10-15 <2-drops you want to recur *that you can put in the bin on command* to make it really good. So if you don't have at least 10-15 1-2 cmc creatures you're going to get value out of, I would not really consider it.
There are a ton of great cards in that pool for sure. But it's a very narrow case where you're going to find 1-2 cmc creatures you're getting that much value from in that volume in your deck.
I think people overstate how much WotC screwed up here. They can't push every card and this is a 2-1 most of the time with four modes that pretty much does what Azorius wants to do before a finisher. The card is perfectly servicable and could very much have been a problem in Standard if at cmc 3.
I think people overstate how much WotC screwed up here. They can't push every card and this is a 2-1 most of the time with four modes that pretty much does what Azorius wants to do before a finisher. The card is perfectly servicable and could very much have been a problem in Standard if at cmc 3.
I'm just not a huge fan of making a cycle and making some mostly unplayable because reasons - atarka's and kolaghan's moved into eternal formats and dromoka's literally dominated standard, but Ojutai's and Silumgars are basically unplayed everywhere.
Woulda been easy just to cut the mana by 1 or make it straight up counter, and still wouldn't have dominated standard but would have been good. Dromoka's still would have been the bogeyman of that format for sure.
I think people overstate how much WotC screwed up here. They can't push every card and this is a 2-1 most of the time with four modes that pretty much does what Azorius wants to do before a finisher. The card is perfectly servicable and could very much have been a problem in Standard if at cmc 3.
Idk that I think they screwed up. It's not like every card needs to be great or anything. Most cycles aren't perfectly balanced. But let's not kid ourselves - it's not a spell that has much traction in this format. Wotc didn't screw up chainwhip cyclops, the design is fine and all, but don't expect me to put it in my commander decks.
I guess you can argue they thought it was more exciting than it was given it was the BaB promo, but I don't really worry too much about those sorts of things.
This card is weird, but very neat once you dive into the synergy rabbit hole. Mirror Mirror Plague Wind
I've always liked this card, but this card is not one that I could ever play. And I've brewed about with some of the cards from all of the game's history (<3 Ritual of the Machine!) but aside from changeline tomfoolery, I'm just not sure.
I built a casual deck many many years ago (something like 17 years) which was an enchanment deck. It's big combo was to use this with unnatural selection. For 1 mana I got to kill any creature on the board. The deck itself was pretty good amongst my friends.
In fact I still have the cards and seeing it will always bring a smile to my face.
Nope. Reflection tokens were before they regularly printed tokens. Unglued had a few tokens, but they were soldier, goblin, zombie, squirrel, sheep, and pegasus.
By the way, another card really fun with this is Mirror Entity, for the same reason. It's definitely a Johnny card, and not one I would expect to turn into a weapon of mass destruction.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
well, the real combo i see from this is with artificial evolution. target spirit mirror, naming whatever creature type your opponents have lots of (zombies, slivers and goblins come to mind). Then nuke their board.
i suppose extra bonus for putting the artificial evolution onto a isochron scepter.
mirror entity was something i had in my 60-card control deck ages ago. it had nothing but counterspells and removal, and mirror entity as the creature beats win.
Spirit Mirror combos with Shields of Velis Vel to wipe one person's board. And Unnatural Selection for a mana per kill. Also with Amoeboid Changeling to ping one creature a turn. I ran them all in Reaper King Changelings (which I need to rebuild now that we have more and better changelings).
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
I had an Ishai/Kraum deck that was just leftovers, and it always did well. This card saved me many times.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
I absolutely love this card, it's been in my binder for ages andnhave never found a deck (any format for that matter) to fit it in.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
Alternatively, if the CMC was up to 3 and it was permanents, it would be quite good, or even if the counter clause was just counter target spell.
I'll never understand who decides what cards to push, but this card was a flop.
At its cost I just can't justify playing it over so many other options. Despite how much I love the promo art, and will probably never get rid of them.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I don’t really see how it could cost any less with the recursion mode, but cost isn’t something I get hung up on too much anyways. Very solid card.
In the card's defense, Counter Trarget (creature)spell + draw a card at 3cmc would be broken as hell.
Just picture Cryptic Command in modern UW- and Jeskai control being 3cmc!
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
Exclude would love a word with you from its couch in the bulk bin
I'm talking more about getting one of those options; if it cost 4 but could counter any spell, it'd be fine. If it cost 3 but had its existing text it would be fine.
If it cost 3 but could counter any spell it would have been probably too good but only because it'd have pushed burn out of the format
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
And the more relevant recursion ability? At instant speed? Not saying it’d be broken, but modal vs. non-modal isn’t exactly and apples to apples comparison.
Three of its four modes (and you pick two) are card parity, so when you choose two of those, you get card advantage. (And of course, some lifegain decks might have something that turns lifegain into card draw, though it might be a bit much to include Necropotence in this deck, though you can just Rector/Replenish it.)
On phasing:
Considering gain 4 is terrible and the recursion is kind of narrow, I think at 3 cmc this would have been interesting, and at 4 cmc it's pretty trash. That or make it 4cmc but make it a universal counter, in which case it compares to dismiss.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Pretty much my exact assessment, thanks
I don't think this card is good enough in EDH unless there's a 2 CMC dude who turn it into an engine, which I don't think there is.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Well, Exclude is completely dead until a creature spell is played? Who cares what color the spell is, you are tied to a specific scenario where Exclude even functions, whereas OC allows flexibility, and by flexibility I mean never dead? But, hey, to each their own.
It’s not trash, though.
I think worrying about a card being dead until someone casts a creature is a little silly. For one thing - obviously someone is going to cast a creature at some point, we've all* got one sitting in the command zone. For a second thing, the difference between an uncastable card and one that is technically castable but sucks isn't necessarily that wide. I'd rather sit on an exclude until the right moment, than fire off an Ojutai's Command as a ritual of rejuvenation. And I'd rather run a different, more flexible, and ideally cheaper counterspell than either of them, because I want my spells to reliably do the thing I need when I need it.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
cryptic, summary dismissal, venser, shaper savant, that kinda stuff
Even Dismiss I think is likely much better than Ojutai's command most of the time.
Generally though, I would want to slide down the mana cost though. we have so many great 2 and 3 cmc counters available.
It is true there are not a lot of re-animation options especially instant speed ones in these colors, so that's really the thing that jumps out at me. If you are confident you will use the two good modes of ojutai's command simultaneously and consistently (counter creature + reanimate 2-drop) then I think it could be really good.
The clutch thing there is like - you need to be running in the vicinity of 10-15 <2-drops you want to recur *that you can put in the bin on command* to make it really good. So if you don't have at least 10-15 1-2 cmc creatures you're going to get value out of, I would not really consider it.
There are a ton of great cards in that pool for sure. But it's a very narrow case where you're going to find 1-2 cmc creatures you're getting that much value from in that volume in your deck.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I'm just not a huge fan of making a cycle and making some mostly unplayable because reasons - atarka's and kolaghan's moved into eternal formats and dromoka's literally dominated standard, but Ojutai's and Silumgars are basically unplayed everywhere.
Woulda been easy just to cut the mana by 1 or make it straight up counter, and still wouldn't have dominated standard but would have been good. Dromoka's still would have been the bogeyman of that format for sure.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I guess you can argue they thought it was more exciting than it was given it was the BaB promo, but I don't really worry too much about those sorts of things.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
This card is weird, but very neat once you dive into the synergy rabbit hole. Mirror Mirror Plague Wind
Did they even print reflection tokens? I'm tempted to add this to my Zedd deck and donate it under the category of "What the hell?"
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
I've always liked this card, but this card is not one that I could ever play. And I've brewed about with some of the cards from all of the game's history (<3 Ritual of the Machine!) but aside from changeline tomfoolery, I'm just not sure.
Total War is the card you want btw.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I built a casual deck many many years ago (something like 17 years) which was an enchanment deck. It's big combo was to use this with unnatural selection. For 1 mana I got to kill any creature on the board. The deck itself was pretty good amongst my friends.
In fact I still have the cards and seeing it will always bring a smile to my face.
Nope. Reflection tokens were before they regularly printed tokens. Unglued had a few tokens, but they were soldier, goblin, zombie, squirrel, sheep, and pegasus.
By the way, another card really fun with this is Mirror Entity, for the same reason. It's definitely a Johnny card, and not one I would expect to turn into a weapon of mass destruction.
On phasing:
i suppose extra bonus for putting the artificial evolution onto a isochron scepter.
mirror entity was something i had in my 60-card control deck ages ago. it had nothing but counterspells and removal, and mirror entity as the creature beats win.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
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