They're sometimes completely dead, and when they're not they usually create a miserable play experience.
In a vacuum, i agree with everything you said.
In my small playgroup (<10 players) i'm the only guy with mono-colored decks, so neither of those cards would be a hard lock for anyone else. We'll see if i actually include Lifeforce permanently, but i'll give it a try - if for nothing else but blunt faces.
For less consistent cards of that type i like them for flavor reasons. If someone's willing to gamble on Compost, Insight or Carpet of Flowers i can totally dig that and they deserve some payoff.
Maybe it's just me but I would shy away pretty hard from color hosers. They're sometimes completely dead, and when they're not they usually create a miserable play experience. There's a reason WotC has stopped printing them.
Compost, insight, and carpet are more ok since they don't hinder the other player, but it still feels lame to get a massive benefit (or not) just because someone is playing a certain color.
So, the reason I only mentioned Insight (and Carpet and Compost) is for basically the reasons you pointed out here. They don't set anyone else back. They only put you ahead. As far as color hosers go, that puts them in a completely different camp than say, Boil.
Card draw and mana ramp are what I like to call WD-40 effects. Basically every deck wants them because they make decks play smooth. With the exception of only a few cards like Necropotence that I think are way too good at that sort of thing, I don't mind playing the proverbial broken WD-40 spell. It's the business spells I think players most have to watch out for. And yes, sometimes cards like Insight are dead, but in a lot of cases it just plays like a Phyrexian Arena. In my experience, players grossly misevaluate how frequently these cards will trigger which I think is the major reason players are deterred from playing them.
an actual hidden gem - Scryb Ranger. I tried it in my Derevi "aggressive landfall and tap abilities deck", and quickly fell in love for most green decks. It helps trigger landfall reliably, helps get extra utility out of tap creatures, and wears equipment like a boss.
That and flash, flying and protection from U!
It's been a great enabler in my Ezuri, Renegade Leader deck and in Edric, Spymaster of Trest it's even better. I can flash it eot whenever i didn't need the mana for disruption and it comes with evasion. Perfect fit.
To weigh in; Negate is underrated for sure even with 16,000 hits. It took me a long time to warm up to it, but it's great in control (there's a lot of scary non-creatures) and EXTREMELY great in aggressive or midrange lists (which need to develop the board and also want to prevent a *** blowout). I wouldn't run it over FoW, Counterspell, Arcane Denial, or Mana Drain (although on my budget only two of those cards are feasible) but I'd consider it superior to all other counterspells in creature-centric blue decks just because holding up 2 mana is significantly easier than holding up 3 or 4, even if Dream Fracture and Disallow are more powerful.
I'll agree that negate is a solid counter for a creature-heavy aggressive/midrange blue deck that's concerned about board wipes (like edric for example). Can't say I build many of those though.
16K puts it at the 15th most played blue card in the format, though. I think you'd be hard pressed to argue it's better than that.
For a fun pseudo-gem, I'll go with palace jailer. Sometimes it can work to deter attacks against you because people fear releasing whatever terrible beastie you exiled with him. Then you get the removal AND the draw
To weigh in; Negate is underrated for sure even with 16,000 hits. It took me a long time to warm up to it, but it's great in control (there's a lot of scary non-creatures) and EXTREMELY great in aggressive or midrange lists (which need to develop the board and also want to prevent a *** blowout). I wouldn't run it over FoW, Counterspell, Arcane Denial, or Mana Drain (although on my budget only two of those cards are feasible) but I'd consider it superior to all other counterspells in creature-centric blue decks just because holding up 2 mana is significantly easier than holding up 3 or 4, even if Dream Fracture and Disallow are more powerful.
I'll agree that negate is a solid counter for a creature-heavy aggressive/midrange blue deck that's concerned about board wipes (like edric for example). Can't say I build many of those though.
16K puts it at the 15th most played blue card in the format, though. I think you'd be hard pressed to argue it's better than that.
For a fun pseudo-gem, I'll go with palace jailer. Sometimes it can work to deter attacks against you because people fear releasing whatever terrible beastie you exiled with him. Then you get the removal AND the draw
Yeah, I didn't realize it was 15th - maybe it's just me as I never played it or saw it in my small meta until this year when I realized just how crucial that mana cost is for creature decks. 15th is about right for it, as I also forgot that if budget allows Swan Song is also typically much much better at protecting a big board.
Good call on Jailer too; Monarch is in general a great and under-rated political effect to get stalemates and turtle games moving, and the jailer is among the best ways to get the crown down. Most crucially he DOES NOT give creatures back if he dies or leaves the table before you lose the crown, so he's insane value in any deck with sacrifice or self-bounce/flicker outlets yet doesn't show up as a top-played card for Brago, Alesha, Ghave, Elenda, Teysa, or Saffi? Seems wrong for sure.
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Commander - Currently Playing: RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G) RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B) WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
Maybe it's just me but I would shy away pretty hard from color hosers. They're sometimes completely dead, and when they're not they usually create a miserable play experience. There's a reason WotC has stopped printing them.
Compost, insight, and carpet are more ok since they don't hinder the other player, but it still feels lame to get a massive benefit (or not) just because someone is playing a certain color. They're just badly designed cards imo.
In multiplayer, they have some value, though Painter's Servant being banned means they still risk it.
Anyway, my hidden gem for today is Foil. It's basically Force of Will 2.0 but you pitch an island (and it's easier to get it back, and you don't pay any life, and you can hardcast it for four mana instead of five). I wouldn't play it in every deck. If you're playing one or two colors, you're fine. Three is the borderline. Four or more is...just forget it.
The rest of the cycle is similar, but I'm not sure I'd play any other than Abolish, Foil, and maybe Flameshot. Outbreak is pretty much only good against token decks, and only if they haven't played any anthems. Snag is I guess a possible anti-Voltron/infect card? But it just moves the clock's hands back one turn, so...
Also, add Foil to the list of counterspells I'd play before Countersquall.
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Jailer is autoinclude in every white deck I have except Marchesa, because what white deck doesn't want more ways to draw cards? Also Monarchy is just a healthy mechanic that encourages players to push the game state forward.
One of my favorites has to be Ertai's Meddling. One of the few counters that gets around "Can't be countered". Not sure where this one falls, I'm the only one I've ever seen use it in a couple different groups, but Druids' Repository is pretty fantastic.
Mana Tithe is very underrated. It's really fun to "get people" with it. It's very often relevant as players tend to tap out in the format a lot, including in the mid to late game when paying the commander tax. It's not a card people expect to see so people don't think to play around it.
For that matter, blue counterspells that are soft counters are also underrated. There are so many times when Mana Leak functions as a Counterspell.
also, not sure if this is a hidden gem, but i've never had skred do less than like 7 or 8 damage. that's basically an insta-kill for R. changing your mana-base to snow isn't super difficult, i think.
Overburden: This card is an impressive hose against the most common strategy in this format and so cheap to boot.
Goryo's Vengeance // Through the Breach: I get why you do not see these two that often in Commander these days with the state of other other formats. However some of my favorite plays have involved some bull***** with these cards and they continually get better as more cards are printed, Goryo's specifically is a really neat tech to get around having to pay full price for a Commander's effect depending on the Commander in question, (a monstrous card in Mairsil and Gonti specifically or with Razaketh or Kozilek 2.0)
Footsteps of the Goryo: Made a table hate me after casting this targetting a Protean Hulk I entombed the previous end step, also fun with Rector's and other death triggers
Shreds of Sanity: This card is too good for what it does its CMC and what it requires you to pay it is basically a staple if I am playing a red deck that plays a half decent amount of spells.
Con is mana s not rainbow and it's not a free spell.
-it's in 4K decks. Hardly hidden.
-the mana is not rainbow - nvm I see you've erratta'ed that.
-the part of bribery where the creature is free? Yeah that's why bribery is good, you see. Without that bribery sucks.
-so...it's basically just a grim tutor except rather than get a synergistic part of your own deck, you have to hope someone else has a synergistic card for you. And if they're off-color you may not even be able to cast most of their spells. So...it's usually a 4 mana sol ring, aka sisay's ring, aka mediocrity incarnate.
-it actually used to be on the top 50 list back in the day iirc. It's a funny card but it's nothing special imo. But maybe that's just because I already have a grim/vamp/seal/demonic/etc. Even so, though, transmute cards are cheap and can hit something in your own deck that's probably more likely to be useful than digging through someone else's.
[quote from="Ryperior74 »" url="/forums/the-game/commander-edh/789264-good-hidden-gems-that-arent-super-specific-or?comment=64"]so...it's basically just a grim tutor except rather than get a synergistic part of your own deck, you have to hope someone else has a synergistic card for you.
Yet, one thing Praetor's Grasp is nuts for... you can play lands of it.
Numerous times i was able to get an opponents' Cabal Coffers or options outside my color identity, like Gaea's Cradle.
One nice thing about Praetor's Grasp is that it's not just a "tutor from an opponent's deck". It can instead be an Extract to take a key combo piece out of an opponent's deck - and it does it face down, so they won't know what you've taken (and thus quite possibly continue playing in the assumption they can combo off), and even if they guess right, they can't Riftsweeper it back.
I don't think it's an autoinclude, but it's a pretty strong and flexible card, and as such finds a way into most of my black decks.
Stony silence.... its an unbelievably powerful card in commander and I don't think its power is hidden it just comes at a cost most people don't want to pay, namely not playing artifact ramp yourself.
Prismatic Strands and Moment's Peace. Fogs in general are pretty underrated already but fogs with flashback are just amazing. There have been so many games I've won just because I could prevent combat dmg at the right time.
Stifle and it's cousins are also really underplayed. I'm pretty sure I'm the only person at my flgs who actually plays stifle.
Riku of Two Reflections - Copy, then copy again | Shattergang Brothers - Token Sac&Recur | Gahiji, Honored One - Multiple attack steps | Karametra, God of Harvests - Landfall, Creaturefall, Shroud | Ruhan of the Fomori - Stop hitting yourself | Zurgo Helmsmasher - Equipment&Wraths | Crosis, the Purger - Dragon Tribal Reanimator | Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - No stax, just tap and untap fun | Anafenza, the Foremost - Enduring Ideal Enchantress | Sharuum, the Hegemon - Sphinx Tribal Control | Noyan Dar - Spellslinger | The Mimeoplasm - Counterpalooza
Lists can be found here.
Still convinced the guy on Beseech the Queen is wearing a Mitra-type hat. Wake up sheeple!
I don't understand even after looking at the oracle text.
That the big reason why it's a mouth full just to read it right but this is probably the best I can do
XT: put a charge counter on ice cauldron exile target card from your hand you may cast the card as long as it remains exiled note the mana Spent to activate it it X can be 0 and can only be activated if there is no charge counters on it.
T: remove a charge counter add the noted mana to your mana pool can only be used on the last card exile with ice cauldron
Here is the kicker thing on this
even if the cauldron gets removed in any sort of way you can still cast the cards you exiled with it
you can put multiple cards into it by removing the counter and then putting another card in the con is it's like casting it normally
if you put something like WUBRG with it in X when you remove the counter it adds WUBRG to the pool for the spell you chosen with it so that can be Progenitus on turn 6 if you do that (if it's the one you exiled)
even if some did stifle or disallow it still goes in and can still be cast and that's because it happens during the resolution
additional cost like kicker the ice cauldrons mana can be used for that as well
In my small playgroup (<10 players) i'm the only guy with mono-colored decks, so neither of those cards would be a hard lock for anyone else. We'll see if i actually include Lifeforce permanently, but i'll give it a try - if for nothing else but blunt faces.
For less consistent cards of that type i like them for flavor reasons. If someone's willing to gamble on Compost, Insight or Carpet of Flowers i can totally dig that and they deserve some payoff.
Card draw and mana ramp are what I like to call WD-40 effects. Basically every deck wants them because they make decks play smooth. With the exception of only a few cards like Necropotence that I think are way too good at that sort of thing, I don't mind playing the proverbial broken WD-40 spell. It's the business spells I think players most have to watch out for. And yes, sometimes cards like Insight are dead, but in a lot of cases it just plays like a Phyrexian Arena. In my experience, players grossly misevaluate how frequently these cards will trigger which I think is the major reason players are deterred from playing them.
Oh yeah. Totally.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
It's been a great enabler in my Ezuri, Renegade Leader deck and in Edric, Spymaster of Trest it's even better. I can flash it eot whenever i didn't need the mana for disruption and it comes with evasion. Perfect fit.
16K puts it at the 15th most played blue card in the format, though. I think you'd be hard pressed to argue it's better than that.
For a fun pseudo-gem, I'll go with palace jailer. Sometimes it can work to deter attacks against you because people fear releasing whatever terrible beastie you exiled with him. Then you get the removal AND the draw
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Yeah, I didn't realize it was 15th - maybe it's just me as I never played it or saw it in my small meta until this year when I realized just how crucial that mana cost is for creature decks. 15th is about right for it, as I also forgot that if budget allows Swan Song is also typically much much better at protecting a big board.
Good call on Jailer too; Monarch is in general a great and under-rated political effect to get stalemates and turtle games moving, and the jailer is among the best ways to get the crown down. Most crucially he DOES NOT give creatures back if he dies or leaves the table before you lose the crown, so he's insane value in any deck with sacrifice or self-bounce/flicker outlets yet doesn't show up as a top-played card for Brago, Alesha, Ghave, Elenda, Teysa, or Saffi? Seems wrong for sure.
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G)
RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B)
WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
In multiplayer, they have some value, though Painter's Servant being banned means they still risk it.
Anyway, my hidden gem for today is Foil. It's basically Force of Will 2.0 but you pitch an island (and it's easier to get it back, and you don't pay any life, and you can hardcast it for four mana instead of five). I wouldn't play it in every deck. If you're playing one or two colors, you're fine. Three is the borderline. Four or more is...just forget it.
The rest of the cycle is similar, but I'm not sure I'd play any other than Abolish, Foil, and maybe Flameshot. Outbreak is pretty much only good against token decks, and only if they haven't played any anthems. Snag is I guess a possible anti-Voltron/infect card? But it just moves the clock's hands back one turn, so...
Also, add Foil to the list of counterspells I'd play before Countersquall.
On phasing:
Older Magic as a Board Game: Panglacial Wurm , Mill
For that matter, blue counterspells that are soft counters are also underrated. There are so many times when Mana Leak functions as a Counterspell.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
omen of fire. at any typical table, this can seriously hose some players. i vaguely remember seeing people combo-ing it with it that betrays.
hydroblast, red elemental blast, pyroblast, blue elemental blast. they almost do exactly the same thing; the difference is that hydro/pyroblast can target non-blue/red cards.
also, not sure if this is a hidden gem, but i've never had skred do less than like 7 or 8 damage. that's basically an insta-kill for R. changing your mana-base to snow isn't super difficult, i think.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
Goryo's Vengeance // Through the Breach: I get why you do not see these two that often in Commander these days with the state of other other formats. However some of my favorite plays have involved some bull***** with these cards and they continually get better as more cards are printed, Goryo's specifically is a really neat tech to get around having to pay full price for a Commander's effect depending on the Commander in question, (a monstrous card in Mairsil and Gonti specifically or with Razaketh or Kozilek 2.0)
Footsteps of the Goryo: Made a table hate me after casting this targetting a Protean Hulk I entombed the previous end step, also fun with Rector's and other death triggers
Shreds of Sanity: This card is too good for what it does its CMC and what it requires you to pay it is basically a staple if I am playing a red deck that plays a half decent amount of spells.
I'm almost in disbelief this next to never sees light in B involved decks
praetor's grasp
You know bribery right?
Well this is a demonic tutor version of that
Con is mana s not rainbow and it's not a free spell.
-the mana is not rainbow - nvm I see you've erratta'ed that.
-the part of bribery where the creature is free? Yeah that's why bribery is good, you see. Without that bribery sucks.
-so...it's basically just a grim tutor except rather than get a synergistic part of your own deck, you have to hope someone else has a synergistic card for you. And if they're off-color you may not even be able to cast most of their spells. So...it's usually a 4 mana sol ring, aka sisay's ring, aka mediocrity incarnate.
-it actually used to be on the top 50 list back in the day iirc. It's a funny card but it's nothing special imo. But maybe that's just because I already have a grim/vamp/seal/demonic/etc. Even so, though, transmute cards are cheap and can hit something in your own deck that's probably more likely to be useful than digging through someone else's.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
But I got a fix anyway
Debt of Loyalty
The has to be on the road to being killed for it to work but
Since when do white get a creature theft?
Numerous times i was able to get an opponents' Cabal Coffers or options outside my color identity, like Gaea's Cradle.
But i agree, 4k decks is hardly hidden.
I don't think it's an autoinclude, but it's a pretty strong and flexible card, and as such finds a way into most of my black decks.
Maybe it's just my meta, but I've never seen anyone run Damping Matrix. I would say it's a "fair" version of Stony Silence. It still shuts down equipment, utility artifacts (Sensei's Divining Top, Birthing Pod, Nevinyrral's Disk, etc.), but it also shuts down utility creatures (Sakura-Tribe Elder, Viscera Seer, Mother of Runes, etc.). I guess the drawback is that its "mana ability" clause doesn't hit the mana Altars.
Stifle and it's cousins are also really underplayed. I'm pretty sure I'm the only person at my flgs who actually plays stifle.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Tamanoa - Welcome to the Jungle
Lists can be found here.
ice cauldron
Can cast good old Ulamog, the ceaseless hunger on turn 6 with this bad boy.
I don't understand even after looking at the oracle text.
That the big reason why it's a mouth full just to read it right but this is probably the best I can do
Here is the kicker thing on this
I'm seems like the most hidden mana tapper to me.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'