How do you feel about preemptive deck counter picking when playing Commander? Explain your reasoning.
Preemptive deck counter picking is when a player changes the deck they are playing right before the match begins solely because of a specific deck an opponent is playing.
Preemptive Deck Counter Pick Example: Jamie, Morgan, Robin and Taylor all have 75% decks and are about to play a four person game of commander. All players begin shuffling their decks and are about to begin playing momentarily. Robin was preparing to play a Jhoira of the Ghitu deck but realizes that Taylor is playing a deck that has Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir as its commander. Robin says "Oh, actually I've changed my mind, I am going to play my Oloro, Ageless Ascetic deck instead of Jhoira of the Gheitu."
In this scenario, Robin changed decks because Jhoria of the Gheitu is hindered when Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir is on the battlefield. Robin believed the game would be less fun because of this, hence the change in decks.
In my opinion, if feels like an unscrupulous action that is poor sportsmanship.
In the exampe, Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir is just one of four commanders in the game. While Jhoira of the Ghitu's activated ability that enables suspend is negated while Teferi is out, Teferi won't always be on the battlefield and he can be removed. Additionally, a deck should be able to function without relying solely on its commander.
I might have more sympathy if the player that is preemptively counter picking initially was playing a substantially weaker deck or the deck they were concerned about was incredibly resilient (i.e. a mono black control deck against Sigarda, Host of Herons). However generally speaking, preemptive deck countering picking is akin to cheating.
I mean, I sympathize with people that sit down and see like... a mono-B or Rakdos deck they know is going to be full of board wipe and removal and they wanted to play their tribal deck and they're just going to sit there getting board wiped all game and saying go. Or you know, they sit down and see The Locust God or Narset and you're playing a slower deck so you know you'd just keep getting your hand discarded the entire game and never do anything, becasue the deck you're intending to play with doesn't answer a deck moving that fast. Most groups don't play with sideboards - it's not 60-card constructed formats where you can try to hit as many notes as possible and do okay. If you sit down with a deck that strongly negates what your deck does or you know it's going to be miserable, is there even a point? "It's a challenge" isn't a legitimate response to the question as it is dishonest about the chances of having a good game if you don't choose a different deck sometimes.
Being a casual format, I see no problem with "counter picking" if the intention isn't to destroy someone else's deck, but to make the game more enjoyable by guaranteeing you'll actually have a chance against a strategy or whatnot. I can understand how it might rub some people the wrong way that their deck has a natural advantage against a certain archetype or strategy and they want to retain that and someone counter picking by deciding they want to actually play the game disables that. But for all intents and purposes, the format is a social format and meant for everyone to have fun playing the game. There are extreme cases and certain strategies that people will always dislike being on the receiving end of, but if it comes down to just knowing you won't be playing much of a game at all, why not?
Its a little tricky because I believe you need to have a certain amount of control elements in your pod or first to draw degeneracy snowballs the game. So I almost always ask the colours of peoples deck just to make sure we don't accidentally end up on all mono red or even being all grixis then the first person to resolve an enchantment wins.
I'll even try to give a mix of strategies because a all control pod goes 2 hours an all aggro pod is just people smashing together and whoever draws sol ring wins. I always feel commander is at its best when its a wrestling match with multiple reversals during a game. If I choose my commander with whatever I felt like or at random you'd often end up with a terrible game.
I have built a deck to specifically crush "Combo Guy", sometimes they need a smack down so they understand that winning isn't the only goal of a game of commander, we are here to play a game. They need a wake up call to snap them out of their megalomania, playing combo really goes to your head sometimes.
I think these things tend to depend on the motive. Say someone was playing a really competitive deck. Upon seeing their opponents' decks though, said person decides to switch to something else. By switching to something less cutthroat, they believe everyone at the table will have more fun and that the game in general would be a lot fairer. In this regard, it isn't about what someone does; it's about why. Actions can have benevolent or malevolent reasons, and I think it's more important to study the reasons why someone does something as opposed to what is actually being done.
a) For the sheer discrepancy of deck strength:
I can completely understand that. Why go up against Prossh, Skyraider of Kher with your Mistform Ultimus random tribal stuff? With enjoyment (hopefully) being the reason we play, this is legitimate and fine in my book.
b) The initial deck's game plan is hosed by the/an opponents' deck:
I can see why one would be bothered by that, but most of the times it wouldn't be reason enough for me to swap decks, personally. Of course it depends on the degree of how bad the constellation is. This far i was able to keep up with most countering archetypes and when i wasn't the problmatic deck was so much stronger it drew extra hate from others, so the overall situation balanced itself.
c) The new deck counters your opponents' deck tech:
As said above, this would be a major d*ck move. Reconsider your motives or play a less social and fun-oriented format.
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Yada yada: I wouldn't mind "Robin" swapping decks, but wouldn't do so myself.
I am very good friends with my playgroup and I don't mind it at all. Everybody should play whatever they feel makes for the most fun game. That said, we never switch decks in order to exploit weaknesses of other chosen decks, but only if one's own chosen deck is particularly ineffective or significantly less playable due to another strategy. For instance, if I play my Shattergang Brothers Sac&Recur control deck with plenty of Dictate of Erebos type cards, my friends usually do not opt for their Voltron builds. Similarly, if everybody else has a creatureless / enchantress / control deck picked out, I usually don't go for my Ruhan of the Fomori "You did this to yourself" Judo deck which relies on my opponents playing big beaters in order to really make use of Mirror Strike effects. We often pick each other's decks at random, so it happens every now and then that one of us chooses a different deck based on the rest of the picks. We are all very fine with this and it has never been an issue. The only downside for me is that I will probably never know how my Anafenza Enchantress deck fares against my friends' graveyard-based builds. I might actually swap her out for another commander at some point, in order to play the deck against a wider variety of strategies.
Riku of Two Reflections - Copy, then copy again | Shattergang Brothers - Token Sac&Recur | Gahiji, Honored One - Multiple attack steps | Karametra, God of Harvests - Landfall, Creaturefall, Shroud | Ruhan of the Fomori - Stop hitting yourself | Zurgo Helmsmasher - Equipment&Wraths | Crosis, the Purger - Dragon Tribal Reanimator | Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - No stax, just tap and untap fun | Anafenza, the Foremost - Enduring Ideal Enchantress | Sharuum, the Hegemon - Sphinx Tribal Control | Noyan Dar - Spellslinger | The Mimeoplasm - Counterpalooza
Lists can be found here.
Still convinced the guy on Beseech the Queen is wearing a Mitra-type hat. Wake up sheeple!
Personally, I think those playing Jhoira decks deserve all the hating out they might get, but I think most Commander players also recognize that selecting Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir as your commander is itself something of a dick move, though he is just fine as one of the 99. Heck, I'm not sure Teferi even qualifies as a 75% commander in the first place.
The only time I let other decks influence my choice is when one of my friends is playing Breya or Atraxa. In which case I don't play Breya or Ramos(which used to be Atraxa).
Sometimes I'll switch or offer to switch decks for the inverse reason (my deck dramatically counters an opponent's deck). This comes up frequently for Anafenza, the Foremost, who I mostly play as an aggressive counters commander but who also wrecks reanimator strategies.
Other than that, it's usually the aforementioned cutthroat thing. If I'm trying to play my happy-little-trees Sapling deck but see two other people are playing Meren of Clan Nel Toth and Baral, Chief of Compliance, the latter of which mentions just having acquired a Force of Will and Mana Drain to put into that deck, then I'm not willing to weather that storm even if the fourth player at the table is.
I personally always pick my deck and place my commander face down so nobody can see what I have chosen. Once everyone has their deck figured out I reveal my commander so that people are not picking their decks based on what I am playing. I have all of my decks sleeved in exactly the same way so you can't tell what I am playing based on my sleeves either.
NOW, that said... if someone is super hard countered by someone else's commander when both blind picked..... I would probably allow them to change in such a way that was not to counter someone else's strategy. Personally though Jhoira of the Ghitu is a real jack wagon commander though so my sympathy here would be..... so so. I once had an Anafenza, the Foremost deck and I would inform or let my friend who was playing fair Sidisi, Brood Tyrant deck change if I was playing my Anafenza. In this case my deck was a little bit of a mass rezurect deck and while graveyard hate was an element of my commander the goal of the deck was not strictly to counter graveyard based decks so much as to give thign's like Living Death one sided value for me.
So, back to the situation brought up by the OP, I think I would let him swap because either he accepts that he essentially auto loses, he dismantles / never plays that deck again when the Teferi player sits down, or you just allow him to get out of that specific matchup so long as he moves to a deck that is not somehow countering another strategy.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
In this Teferi v Jhoira example, I wouldn’t take that much of an issue with it, given no other facts. I would actually take issue with the Teferi player if they had possibly built their deck just to shut off Jhoira, given that it is 75% EDH (whatever that means to people these days). It’s just not fun to be in jail all game, especially like this where you know all this player needs to do is leave mana up 4 turns down the line.
That said, I can’t honestly think of another scenario where one Commander shuts down the functionality of another this way. The closest I can think of is Anafenza, the Foremost and any graveyard-loving general (Chainer, Karador, BUG Sidisi, Scarab God, etc). That discussion has been had before, and it tends to be drawn along the lines of which groups are ok generally with high volumes of hate cards. And particularly, graveyard strategies are more accustomed to dealing with hate. Maybe Kataki, War’s Wage against Breya, Etherium Shaper? I’ve yet to see anybody play Kataki.
What I’d be wary of for this question really is an unrestricted right to change decks whenever a player feels like it. These extreme examples are one thing, but it’s not too far from situations like putting away an elf-ball deck just because someone sees a deck they know has a lot of Wraths in it.
Also, what’s stopping that player from switching deck’s in reaction to the first player’s switch, and so on and so on? Do all players need to agree on what the others are playing before the game starts? Maybe this isn’t a problem for some groups, but most players would be turned away from the game generally if they’d understood that their development of decks will always be up to their opponents to ban out by fiat.
I know this concept gets repeated a lot, but I think the playgroups that are good at managing this already are, and for those that aren’t there is little that we can offer them to help out. The cards are legal, so you will have a bad time now and then. Try not to invest 2+ hours in these instances of bad times you are bound to have in this format, and brush yourself off from time to time.
It's a sore spot for most people. I get the idea of playing a fair matchup, but if this counter picking becomes acceptable you get a rolling cascade of changes, one countering the other into perpetuity - at least in a vacuum you do anyway.
This is definitely something covered under the 'social contract' area of EDH. For example, mostly, my meta is my wife, 1v1. Occasional LGS visits, but we're pretty busy atm and my LGS is 30+ mins away. Generally, her preference is for random deck vs random deck. Occasionally it'll result in a mismatch. I've had her Gishath, Sun's Avatar up against my 75% WIP decks before, and been handed a spanking. And by contrast, I've inflicted a couple of nasty hidings to her with my Nissa, Vastwood Seer ETB control deck before. Occasionally there's some bad feelings, but generally we'll talk about what wasn't enjoyable and look to improve the experience next time.
Occasionally, I'll request a specific match up, if I feel like a challenge against a specific archetype or generally one of her stronger decks - usually this is Roon of the Hidden Realm lock out, or Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath ramp goodstuff. Or if one of us has a deck to playtest and wants to be given our head to see how the deck plays out. But otherwise we both kind of support the idea of being free to play what we want.
I get how this would be frustrating in a bigger meta though; you don't want to be locked out, or have every play you made be totally redundant. Sometimes it does happen, and you just have to shuffle up and play again. Some metas don't like double up decks either, and that's understandable. In essence though, this sort of thing is totally meta dependent and should definitely be discussed prior to play, otherwise be prepared for some salt, grief or assorted hurt feelings and bad vibes.
My general feeling toward this sort of thing as a player is that it's fine under the condition that the change is to play decks that scale to a similar level of competition. If you're changing to lock someone out of a game or win more easily by flattening your meta, you're doing it wrong and deserve whatever salt you get coming your way.
In this Teferi v Jhoira example, I wouldn’t take that much of an issue with it, given no other facts. I would actually take issue with the Teferi player if they had possibly built their deck just to shut off Jhoira, given that it is 75% EDH (whatever that means to people these days). It’s just not fun to be in jail all game, especially like this where you know all this player needs to do is leave mana up 4 turns down the line.
That said, I can’t honestly think of another scenario where one Commander shuts down the functionality of another this way. The closest I can think of is Anafenza, the Foremost and any graveyard-loving general (Chainer, Karador, BUG Sidisi, Scarab God, etc). That discussion has been had before, and it tends to be drawn along the lines of which groups are ok generally with high volumes of hate cards. And particularly, graveyard strategies are more accustomed to dealing with hate. Maybe Kataki, War’s Wage against Breya, Etherium Shaper? I’ve yet to see anybody play Kataki.
What I’d be wary of for this question really is an unrestricted right to change decks whenever a player feels like it. These extreme examples are one thing, but it’s not too far from situations like putting away an elf-ball deck just because someone sees a deck they know has a lot of Wraths in it.
Also, what’s stopping that player from switching deck’s in reaction to the first player’s switch, and so on and so on? Do all players need to agree on what the others are playing before the game starts? Maybe this isn’t a problem for some groups, but most players would be turned away from the game generally if they’d understood that their development of decks will always be up to their opponents to ban out by fiat.
I know this concept gets repeated a lot, but I think the playgroups that are good at managing this already are, and for those that aren’t there is little that we can offer them to help out. The cards are legal, so you will have a bad time now and then. Try not to invest 2+ hours in these instances of bad times you are bound to have in this format, and brush yourself off from time to time.
The way I see it, Jhoira can come down before Teferi and Jhoira has access to removal and counterspells so she can keep Teferi at bay. Additionally there are two other players that can keep Teferi at bay.
Besides, do you really want to have sympathy for a deck that's primary goal is to cheat out Eldrazi and land destruction spells? I think a 75% Jhoira of the Ghitu deck should be able to handle Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir and changing decks because it now can't derp its way to cheating out Obliteration and Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger on turn 5 is a really slimy move.
Also, what’s stopping that player from switching deck’s in reaction to the first player’s switch, and so on and so on? Do all players need to agree on what the others are playing before the game starts?
There is nothing to stop that from happening which is why I believe players should play with their commanders face down until the game begins.
I also think an Elfball player shouldn't change decks because they realized one of the decks they are playing against is a mono black control deck. You shouldn't only play a deck if its smooth sailing and no bad match ups for you.
I'm curious how you would feel about this example:
Counter picking is fine if you do it because someone is playing a commander that just utterly negates yours. Doing it to hose someone is a douche move, but doing it to avoid just getting hosed all game is fine. In OPs example, the only way the Jhoira player would be able to actually play their deck in a group with a Teferi player would be to target the Teferi player and do everything possible to keep him off the field. Switching to a different deck is going to lead to a more enjoyable game for everyone than for the Jhoira player to have to decide between not being able to function or hating on Teferi all game. If I'm the Teferi player,I'd much rather hear "your deck is just going to ice my deck, I'm going to switch to a different deck that won't get locked out but also won't target you" than have the player just try to prevent me from doing anything all game. Same for say, and Arjun player switching to a different deck when they sit down and see Nekusar.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Besides, do you really want to have sympathy for a deck that's primary goal is to cheat out Eldrazi and land destruction spells?
This is where I continue to wonder what exactly does a 75% deck mean with either of these two commanders? I've never seen a Jhoira deck that wasn't just about cheating out big wincons, and I'm having a hard time imagining a mono-blue deck helmed by Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir fitting into the 75% commander concept. What is it, drake tribal or something?
-Everyone should ideally pick their commanders and reveal simultaneously. I don't see any difference between switching after seeing what your opponent picked, and making your initial pick after seeing what your opponent picked. Same rules apply.
-Switching seems fine if you're trying to reconcile power levels (in either direction)
-If someone's commander is a powerful counter to yours (i.e. you're playing a big blue stompy serpents deck and your opponent is playing Llawan, Cephalid Empress) then it seems ok to switch to something that isn't super hosed. In the jhoira example I guess it depends on what the decks look like, but if jhoira has no answers to teferi then it does seem a bit unfair (although they should maybe build their deck better). Overall I wouldn't be too critical of someone switching to avoid getting hosed as long as they aren't violating the last rule.
-If you're switching to get an ADVANTAGE (i.e. picking teferi after you see your opponent picked jhoira), that definitely seems straight out.
This is where I continue to wonder what exactly does a 75% deck mean with either of these two commanders? I've never seen a Jhoira deck that wasn't just about cheating out big wincons, and I'm having a hard time imagining a mono-blue deck helmed by Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir fitting into the 75% commander concept. What is it, drake tribal or something?
I guess 75% is pretty subjective, but Jhoira and teferi are pretty far from being top-tier commanders. I'd say take a few teeth off (i.e. remove the mass LD from jhoira and just slowly cheat fatties) and I'd call that pretty 75%. Teferi is a damn obnoxious card, but I don't know that he steers the deck towards being particularly competitive (well...I guess there's a few annoying lockout combos, but as long as you aren't playing those it seems fine). I used to have a teferi deck that was just a bunch of big fatties and counters - keep up the counters, flash in the fatties when you have extra mana. I'd call that 75%.
Drake tribal sounds pretty 25% to me but as I say, it's pretty subjective.
I personally think that you roll a die for highest to start, then each player picks a deck in turn order. It off balances going last (second to last, etc). No changing once a player picks.
How do you feel about preemptive deck counter picking when playing Commander? Explain your reasoning.
Preemptive deck counter picking is when a player changes the deck they are playing right before the match begins solely because of a specific deck an opponent is playing.
Preemptive Deck Counter Pick Example: Jamie, Morgan, Robin and Taylor all have 75% decks and are about to play a four person game of commander. All players begin shuffling their decks and are about to begin playing momentarily. Robin was preparing to play a Jhoira of the Ghitu deck but realizes that Taylor is playing a deck that has Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir as its commander. Robin says "Oh, actually I've changed my mind, I am going to play my Oloro, Ageless Ascetic deck instead of Jhoira of the Gheitu."
In this scenario, Robin changed decks because Jhoria of the Gheitu is hindered when Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir is on the battlefield. Robin believed the game would be less fun because of this, hence the change in decks.
What does the percentage mean??
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GMR21=OYS, I know you.
Salt is part of the game. Deal with it.
It indicates the level of competitiveness to which a deck is tuned. If you're throwing any old thing in Jhoira's deck, it's obviously less than 100%. Mass LD and Eldrazi? Much closer to 100%.
It indicates the level of competitiveness to which a deck is tuned. If you're throwing any old thing in Jhoira's deck, it's obviously less than 100%. Mass LD and Eldrazi? Much closer to 100%.
As far as a Teferi deck, it might be a control deck that doesn't play Knowledge Pool or it might play it but it wouldn't play it alongside Fabricate and Treasure Mage. It could win with big creatures it could flash in at end of turn.
I want to add that I play a lot online, and stopped playing Horobi for a couple months when sram came out because he was so popular, and Horobi just ruined that deck, which wasn't fun.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
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Preemptive deck counter picking is when a player changes the deck they are playing right before the match begins solely because of a specific deck an opponent is playing.
In this scenario, Robin changed decks because Jhoria of the Gheitu is hindered when Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir is on the battlefield. Robin believed the game would be less fun because of this, hence the change in decks.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
In the exampe, Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir is just one of four commanders in the game. While Jhoira of the Ghitu's activated ability that enables suspend is negated while Teferi is out, Teferi won't always be on the battlefield and he can be removed. Additionally, a deck should be able to function without relying solely on its commander.
I might have more sympathy if the player that is preemptively counter picking initially was playing a substantially weaker deck or the deck they were concerned about was incredibly resilient (i.e. a mono black control deck against Sigarda, Host of Herons). However generally speaking, preemptive deck countering picking is akin to cheating.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
Being a casual format, I see no problem with "counter picking" if the intention isn't to destroy someone else's deck, but to make the game more enjoyable by guaranteeing you'll actually have a chance against a strategy or whatnot. I can understand how it might rub some people the wrong way that their deck has a natural advantage against a certain archetype or strategy and they want to retain that and someone counter picking by deciding they want to actually play the game disables that. But for all intents and purposes, the format is a social format and meant for everyone to have fun playing the game. There are extreme cases and certain strategies that people will always dislike being on the receiving end of, but if it comes down to just knowing you won't be playing much of a game at all, why not?
(Also known as Xenphire)
I'll even try to give a mix of strategies because a all control pod goes 2 hours an all aggro pod is just people smashing together and whoever draws sol ring wins. I always feel commander is at its best when its a wrestling match with multiple reversals during a game. If I choose my commander with whatever I felt like or at random you'd often end up with a terrible game.
I have built a deck to specifically crush "Combo Guy", sometimes they need a smack down so they understand that winning isn't the only goal of a game of commander, we are here to play a game. They need a wake up call to snap them out of their megalomania, playing combo really goes to your head sometimes.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
Swapping to Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir when you see Jhoira of the Ghitu/Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge/Maelstrom Wanderer/Rashmi, Eternities Crafter/Wrexial, the Risen Deep/Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder/... - without a doubt - should be considered a d*ck move.
The three reasons i've seen deck swaps for were:
a) For the sheer discrepancy of deck strength:
I can completely understand that. Why go up against Prossh, Skyraider of Kher with your Mistform Ultimus random tribal stuff? With enjoyment (hopefully) being the reason we play, this is legitimate and fine in my book.
b) The initial deck's game plan is hosed by the/an opponents' deck:
I can see why one would be bothered by that, but most of the times it wouldn't be reason enough for me to swap decks, personally. Of course it depends on the degree of how bad the constellation is. This far i was able to keep up with most countering archetypes and when i wasn't the problmatic deck was so much stronger it drew extra hate from others, so the overall situation balanced itself.
c) The new deck counters your opponents' deck tech:
As said above, this would be a major d*ck move. Reconsider your motives or play a less social and fun-oriented format.
__________________________________________________
Yada yada: I wouldn't mind "Robin" swapping decks, but wouldn't do so myself.
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Lists can be found here.
Other than that, it's usually the aforementioned cutthroat thing. If I'm trying to play my happy-little-trees Sapling deck but see two other people are playing Meren of Clan Nel Toth and Baral, Chief of Compliance, the latter of which mentions just having acquired a Force of Will and Mana Drain to put into that deck, then I'm not willing to weather that storm even if the fourth player at the table is.
- Rabid Wombat
NOW, that said... if someone is super hard countered by someone else's commander when both blind picked..... I would probably allow them to change in such a way that was not to counter someone else's strategy. Personally though Jhoira of the Ghitu is a real jack wagon commander though so my sympathy here would be..... so so. I once had an Anafenza, the Foremost deck and I would inform or let my friend who was playing fair Sidisi, Brood Tyrant deck change if I was playing my Anafenza. In this case my deck was a little bit of a mass rezurect deck and while graveyard hate was an element of my commander the goal of the deck was not strictly to counter graveyard based decks so much as to give thign's like Living Death one sided value for me.
So, back to the situation brought up by the OP, I think I would let him swap because either he accepts that he essentially auto loses, he dismantles / never plays that deck again when the Teferi player sits down, or you just allow him to get out of that specific matchup so long as he moves to a deck that is not somehow countering another strategy.
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[Modern] Allies
That said, I can’t honestly think of another scenario where one Commander shuts down the functionality of another this way. The closest I can think of is Anafenza, the Foremost and any graveyard-loving general (Chainer, Karador, BUG Sidisi, Scarab God, etc). That discussion has been had before, and it tends to be drawn along the lines of which groups are ok generally with high volumes of hate cards. And particularly, graveyard strategies are more accustomed to dealing with hate. Maybe Kataki, War’s Wage against Breya, Etherium Shaper? I’ve yet to see anybody play Kataki.
What I’d be wary of for this question really is an unrestricted right to change decks whenever a player feels like it. These extreme examples are one thing, but it’s not too far from situations like putting away an elf-ball deck just because someone sees a deck they know has a lot of Wraths in it.
Also, what’s stopping that player from switching deck’s in reaction to the first player’s switch, and so on and so on? Do all players need to agree on what the others are playing before the game starts? Maybe this isn’t a problem for some groups, but most players would be turned away from the game generally if they’d understood that their development of decks will always be up to their opponents to ban out by fiat.
I know this concept gets repeated a lot, but I think the playgroups that are good at managing this already are, and for those that aren’t there is little that we can offer them to help out. The cards are legal, so you will have a bad time now and then. Try not to invest 2+ hours in these instances of bad times you are bound to have in this format, and brush yourself off from time to time.
This is definitely something covered under the 'social contract' area of EDH. For example, mostly, my meta is my wife, 1v1. Occasional LGS visits, but we're pretty busy atm and my LGS is 30+ mins away. Generally, her preference is for random deck vs random deck. Occasionally it'll result in a mismatch. I've had her Gishath, Sun's Avatar up against my 75% WIP decks before, and been handed a spanking. And by contrast, I've inflicted a couple of nasty hidings to her with my Nissa, Vastwood Seer ETB control deck before. Occasionally there's some bad feelings, but generally we'll talk about what wasn't enjoyable and look to improve the experience next time.
Occasionally, I'll request a specific match up, if I feel like a challenge against a specific archetype or generally one of her stronger decks - usually this is Roon of the Hidden Realm lock out, or Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath ramp goodstuff. Or if one of us has a deck to playtest and wants to be given our head to see how the deck plays out. But otherwise we both kind of support the idea of being free to play what we want.
I get how this would be frustrating in a bigger meta though; you don't want to be locked out, or have every play you made be totally redundant. Sometimes it does happen, and you just have to shuffle up and play again. Some metas don't like double up decks either, and that's understandable. In essence though, this sort of thing is totally meta dependent and should definitely be discussed prior to play, otherwise be prepared for some salt, grief or assorted hurt feelings and bad vibes.
My general feeling toward this sort of thing as a player is that it's fine under the condition that the change is to play decks that scale to a similar level of competition. If you're changing to lock someone out of a game or win more easily by flattening your meta, you're doing it wrong and deserve whatever salt you get coming your way.
The way I see it, Jhoira can come down before Teferi and Jhoira has access to removal and counterspells so she can keep Teferi at bay. Additionally there are two other players that can keep Teferi at bay.
Besides, do you really want to have sympathy for a deck that's primary goal is to cheat out Eldrazi and land destruction spells? I think a 75% Jhoira of the Ghitu deck should be able to handle Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir and changing decks because it now can't derp its way to cheating out Obliteration and Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger on turn 5 is a really slimy move.
There is nothing to stop that from happening which is why I believe players should play with their commanders face down until the game begins.
I also think an Elfball player shouldn't change decks because they realized one of the decks they are playing against is a mono black control deck. You shouldn't only play a deck if its smooth sailing and no bad match ups for you.
I'm curious how you would feel about this example:
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
This is where I continue to wonder what exactly does a 75% deck mean with either of these two commanders? I've never seen a Jhoira deck that wasn't just about cheating out big wincons, and I'm having a hard time imagining a mono-blue deck helmed by Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir fitting into the 75% commander concept. What is it, drake tribal or something?
-Switching seems fine if you're trying to reconcile power levels (in either direction)
-If someone's commander is a powerful counter to yours (i.e. you're playing a big blue stompy serpents deck and your opponent is playing Llawan, Cephalid Empress) then it seems ok to switch to something that isn't super hosed. In the jhoira example I guess it depends on what the decks look like, but if jhoira has no answers to teferi then it does seem a bit unfair (although they should maybe build their deck better). Overall I wouldn't be too critical of someone switching to avoid getting hosed as long as they aren't violating the last rule.
-If you're switching to get an ADVANTAGE (i.e. picking teferi after you see your opponent picked jhoira), that definitely seems straight out.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Drake tribal sounds pretty 25% to me but as I say, it's pretty subjective.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
A) Someone is switching a deck out to better match the power level of the table
B) Someone is counterpicking someone like me but I'm also playing a more tuned deck simply as a means to lessen the advantage.
I wouldn't ever do this if the table's choices were already in a good spot.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
What does the percentage mean??
Salt is part of the game. Deal with it.
It indicates the level of competitiveness to which a deck is tuned. If you're throwing any old thing in Jhoira's deck, it's obviously less than 100%. Mass LD and Eldrazi? Much closer to 100%.
Correct, a 75% Jhoira deck would probably still run some Eldrazi, but it wouldn't be a 100% deck running cards like Mana Crypt and Mana Drain. It would play Sunken Hollow over Undergroud Sea, but unlike a 50% deck, it wouldn't play Jwar Isle Refuge
As far as a Teferi deck, it might be a control deck that doesn't play Knowledge Pool or it might play it but it wouldn't play it alongside Fabricate and Treasure Mage. It could win with big creatures it could flash in at end of turn.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!