People who have read my other threads might remember that I'm a former Kaalia of the Vast player who stopped playing her because of social pressure in my local meta. I was trying to make a casual angel tribal deck, but it was made pretty clear to me that using Kaalia as my commander was not an accepted way to do that. I've been playing an Archangel Avacyn theme deck (which can be found at https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/790322-archangel-avacyn-church-of-avacyn-themed-control) and I'm really enjoying it. When I started to formulate the deck and to get advice from people on these forums, I wanted to create a 75% sort of deck without mass land destruction or hard locks, one based on Innistrad lore, because I didn't want to be the ******** in the group and wanted something I looked forward to playing every week. Since then I've noticed that the people who were complaining about my Kaalia deck have left, and competitive types have started to show up on EDH night at my local game store.
They use cards like Jokulhaups, Cataclysm and Desolation Angel, or really fast combo strategies like one very well-tuned Mairsil, the Pretender deck. We still have goofy theme decks and other 75% decks in the meta, but we are either getting crushed by the 100% decks, or mass land destruction is being used to prolong the game by an absurd amount of time until the MLD player can regroup and finally win. I've told the MLD players that it's not appreciated, and I've been met with either "So?" or excuses like "I only play this if the game is going on too long" (which is a load of crap because MLD prolongs games the way people tend to play it). I've told numerous people including the new Spikes that my deck is mostly a theme deck that works fairly well, but is not yet properly tuned, as I'm missing some important expensive cards, and it's not intended to be totally cutthroat.
How much I enjoy the game is fairly contingent on who's playing that week. Winning isn't really important to me; certainly a lot less important than everyone in the group having an enjoyable game. I still had fun this week, but it wasn't very fun to have the other remaining player pretty much dead only to have Jokulhaups cast and an angel taken from my graveyard to slowly kill me (I was at over 40 life and he took Angel of the Dire Hour after spending a few turns building his mana back up... yes he beat me with the angel in my sig picture). I'm sort of at a loss as to what to do. My local game store does seem to attract Spikes, but until recently the multiplayer EDH players have been casuals like me. Part of me wants to build a Kaalia deck that even the Spikes will fear, part of me wants to wait it out and see if the Spikes stay, still playing what makes me happy, and part of me wants to go to the other local game store and see if things are different in their commander league as opposed to open multiplayer pick-up games.
I don't personally see MLD as that high end of a strategy and generally feel that when I see it cast the game doesn't go any slower but generally faster because the turns are greatly accelerated and it is a good counter to certain strategies or board positions.
To me MLD sort of breaks the social contract of EDH. I've found it's frowned upon in many pods, and to me greatly reduces the amount of fun I have in a game.
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"Cut it down, bury it in the snow, put it to the torch. The rose will still bloom again."
You are free to think that but the game being played generally wants to disagree.
Looking at as anything other than a form of control saved for the more direct and aggressive colors is flawed assessment. A Counterspell stops the card the Armageddon stops the fuel for the card, both get the same result. The bigger ones Jokulhaups and Obliterate flatten the progress of ramp of all kinds which EDH tends to drift towards if it is let to.
Sure the better play is playing them with Boros Charm or a bunch of other things now but they are still good answers when you find yourself in a good spot and want to tip the game.
So you're suggesting that I put stuff like Armageddon, Razia's Purification, Wildfire, Burning of Xinye, etc. into my Archangel Avacyn deck? I didn't because I thought it was gauche to do so. My deck can close out a game reasonably quickly once I start attacking mid to late game, especially if I have a soft creature lock going and my angels with vigilance are online. It would make me feel dirty, and I'd also put that into a 100% strat category while I want to have a deck that is welcome at just about any table. The people who helped me design the deck and I brainstormed and put a list together with that in mind, and I used to be in a meta where MLD was considered very rude, but times seem to be a-changing, to paraphrase Bob Dylan.
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"Cut it down, bury it in the snow, put it to the torch. The rose will still bloom again."
What I am saying is that they would work, no one has to run anything in their decks.
Never played at a table that frowned on them, more what I find is frowned on is the more general attitude of playing something for spite or anger that probably transferred onto the card used and built a stigma.
It is difficult to accurately assess a situation without actually being there.
Given what you have said, and looking at your posted deck list, I find it likely you are not fully understanding what is going on.
Perhaps there is a problem that, if unable to be resolved through discussion, would require one or more parties involved to leave.
However, it sounds like an inexperienced player (you) are playing with a weaker deck (I would guage your list to be at ~50%, not 75%) against strategies you have not learned to deal with, and have come here to complain instead of improving.
I am also fairly certain they are not playing '100%' decks. Probably in the 75% - 909% range. From your description, it honestly sounds like the MLD player is bad at it, and shouldn't even be playing those effects. With a bit of experience, his or her opponents should be able to punish him for it easily.
To be clear, being a good player is not synonymous with being a competative player.
Playing a strong deck is not synonymous with playing a competative deck.
Opponents playing with effects you do not like does not make them spikes.
To be a good player, you simply need to be able to learn and improve, both at deck construction and gameplay.
At a gameplay level, what are you having difficulty with?
If mass creature removal is causing problems, do not over-commit creatures to the board. Play enough to present a legitimate threat, but no more so you can recover from a 'wrath'.
If counterspells are a problem, learn to guage what level of threat your cards are to the player, and provoke a response with a lesser threat to clear the way for a greater one (if they do not answer the lesser threats, you still have pressure on them).
If you are having issue with mass land destruction, do not default to playing a land every turn. Play only what you need, and hold the rest in hand.
If combo is the issue, learn how the combo works, and hold creature removal, graveyard removal, or whatever else is appropriate to interupt it.
For deck construction, again look at what the problems are, and figure out how to address them.
What cards can counter those effects? What is the cost of playing them (combination of how effective they are, and how narrow they are - what are you not playing in their place)?
Is there a more general change you can make?
Looking at your deck, first thing is your curve is way to high. It takes you too long before you can reasonably affect the game, making you vulnerable to any faster or just more efficient decks. This also makes it vastly more difficult to recover from mass land destruction.
You say you want to play an Avacyn-themed angel tribal deck? Angels are expensive. Instead, consider a 'Church of Avacyn' deck, using a human tribal theme for the lower curve, with a smaller angel tribal theme for the top.
Sunforger & Mistveil Plains are cheap, and cards you should be playing in that type of deck anyway. With Boros Charm, they provide recurring immunity to those sweeper effects. Karmic Justice is also a card worth considering if your opponents rely on mass noncreature removal.
For Mairsil, the Pretender, something as simpple as Arrest can cause immense trouble for the player (though I personally find it too weak without a consistent way of recurring it). Phyrexian Revoker, Pithing Needle, Cursed Totem, & Damping Matrix all lock him out of using abilities while they are on the battlefield. Torpor Orb & Hushwing Gryff restricts his access to those abilities to begin with. Graveyard removal also limits his options. Every deck should have two or three dedicated pieces of grave hate, more if the meta demands. Which ones you use depends on your deck, but common strong options include Rest in Peace, Relic of Progenitus, or even Tormod's Crypt.
White has variety of similar effects available to it. These are all often worth playing as general hate cards, even without a specific target.
Angel of Jubilation is a powerful hate card against a variety of effects and combos commonly played in the format.
Land Tax & Scroll Rack higher cost (monitarily), but both can help recover from mass land destruction, and provide a powerful card 'draw' engine when combined.
I have had a similar experience of getting rolled by premium lists in my meta, so I just threw together a $300 Selvala HotW brostorm deck so I can compete when they sit down.
You have to think of edh like hunting, in a manner: some days, you're only up against squirrels, so your grandad's .22 plinker is the right tool for the job. You want to kill a radioactive shark demon, well, you're going to need a bigger boat.
You're not wrong for enjoying the .22 for what it is, but sometimes you need a bazooka and there's really no alternative path towards success. So go build a bazooka.
I agree with the split deck scenario. Tuning decks for the situation is the most responsible way to maximize fun for both you and your opponents.
As for the MLD decks? Just pack all the anti-MLD you can find (Boros Charm / Faith's Reward / Sacred Ground, et al). If they make their play and it doesn't hobble you, they are just super dead.
To me MLD sort of breaks the social contract of EDH. I've found it's frowned upon in many pods, and to me greatly reduces the amount of fun I have in a game.
MLD has value as a strategy. The problem with MLD is when Bob has no creatures, no Propaganda effects or anything like that, and Bob casts Armageddon.
If they're complaining about Kaalia, playing MLD is kinda hypocritical, though. It's like people who drop Cabal Coffers and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, and then get mad at my little Strip Mine.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I agree with Muspellsheimr. This is not really a 75% deck.
First, I see the term “75% deck” misused about 100% of the time. The term is intended for a deck that is “just good enough to beat a deck built to be 100% optimal if I play tight and get lucky.” “…That way, it is a challenge for me and allows me to benefit from the 100% decks facing opposition from some of the other players at the table. These 75% decks are also not going to turn four an entire table of casual players…” (http://www.gatheringmagic.com/jasonalt-021314-building-a-75-commander-deck/).
So by original definition, a 75% deck needs to have some marginal chance to take a game off of a table of 100% decks. But most decks people claim are “75%” don’t have a snowball’s chance. The term just seems to be used as a way of saying that you are playing whatever the world you want, and any deck that beats you is piloted by a player who doesn’t get it. You do have to actually put in some effort to build to this theory of “75%”. You can’t just build a Warrior tribal deck with Stangg, call it “75%”, and then claim that it is your deckbuilding theory that is preventing you from making a fair showing at a table.
Two, the entire theory of 75% is contradictory, as originally authored – “In a good night of Commander for my playgroup, I will win 1 ÷ X games, where X is the number of players at the table.”
Of course presuming everyone else is playing a “100% deck”, you have a far lower chance of winning. Actually, your chances of winning are exactly the above if you, in fact, are playing 100% against everyone else’s 100%. It is simply a proportional chance to win, aside all other factors. So a deck whose card power is 75% of what is possible in the format I would say has such a low chance of winning against 100% decks that no person would be satisfied playing one in an environment like that. So if the goal is to have involvement in a game that grows beyond what you designed for your deck, then you will fail that goal by building 75%. Based on the above equation, you only reach this level of balance and participation when the power of your deck is exactly what everyone else’s is.
I think the real concept presented in that series is one that just about every source on EDH has commented on – scaleability. (In fact, it goes on to explain how clones scale to the creature-beats decks you are facing). What you want is for your deck to be able to scale to the competition you encounter. Again, you won’t get there automatically. You have to actually play up to the competition. If you are going to do it in a way that doesn’t abruptly foreclose on less explosive decks, then you will generally do it by playing a high answer-density. Ironically that is the exact opposite of the design space the self-styled “75%” players seem like they want to carve out for themselves – one where Clone spamming is a reasonable approach to a game.
In the end, if you do want to play up to these MLD and combo decks, then you will have to react. Play either land-recursion or White-based defensive cards against the MLD. Play lots of Instant removal for combo pieces, and Pithing Needle effects for Mairsil and other such.
Agree with the above posters. None of the decks involved are as good as you think, including yours. You can definitely make improvements. Main thing is lower the curve, it's tremendously high for a color combo that sucks at ramp. Decks can improve a TON if they're consistently able to actually cast more than one thing in the first three or four turns. It's a huge leap. I like the suggestion of adding more human, which still fits Church of Avacyn theme.
To me MLD sort of breaks the social contract of EDH. I've found it's frowned upon in many pods, and to me greatly reduces the amount of fun I have in a game.
In my experience, MLD is unpopular, but in my experience (obviously yours can differ) it's not a horrible breach of some unwritten social contract that will cause your friends to stop talking to you. Poorly used MLD sucks, but it doesn't really make the game go on longer unless the MLD just keeps using it over and over again without any clear goal, but this generally happens with creature wipes as well.
Yeah it's unfun. So is Merciless Eviction and Hour of Revelation. Boardwipes are unfun, but they're necessary because short of counterspells and protect-your-board instants, they're a pretty effective means of simplifying the board and pulling the leading players back. MLD serves a very similar purpose.
Plus, if MLD is run often enough that it's a problem for you, you can run counters to it.
@Musphellsheimr: I'm here to improve. I want to get better. I wouldn't spend as much time on here as I do and ask as many questions as I do were that not the case. I feel you're taking this thread out of context of everything else I've posted. The player using the MLD topdecked it, and it was his only answer pretty much to me pounding on him. A creature wipe wouldn't have been sufficient because I was holding some and had plenty of mana to cast them.
It had been very strongly impressed upon me by people who used to be regulars to the group that mass land destruction was considered very rude and that you didn't play it if you cared at all about anyone else's enjoyment of the game. From them and the Command Zone podcast I've gotten the idea that it's breaking a social contract of sorts to play MLD. As far as graveyard hate goes, I only have Angel of Finality, and no way to tutor for it. If I need more, I'll add more.
I can't afford the expensive fetch lands, Land Tax, Scroll Rack, Sword of Fire and Ice, Plateau etc. I'm on a very limited budget. I have a fair bit of recursion in my deck, so I'd prefer targeted grave hate for my second piece, something like a Tormod's Crypt.
I think lowering the curve might be a really good idea, but I really have no idea where to start. I think I'd likely have to totally retool the deck and go with a totally different strategy than I'm using, and that would mean investing a LOT more money into the deck than I already have (which is quite a lot, especially for someone disabled like I am).
As far as play goes, my biggest weaknesses are group politics, managing threat assessment (making a deck look scarier than it is so I get targeted, then being unable to play Archenemy when I have to), and a combination of the two, namely, convincing people I'm not a huge threat, because, I'm far from the best player at most tables, nor is my deck the best usually because of budget concerns. I originally came to these forums seeking deckbuilding and play advice.
@TheAmericanSpirit, TheDrB and hyalaperterouslemur: I see value in having a deck that's more dangerous, and I can ask what sorts of decks people are playing before I decide what I'm going to play. As far as generals that I consider “competitive”, I currently own Kaalia of the Vast and have a few of the components for building the deck, including some MLD (I have fewer qualms running it if I know others are), and there is a budget list on MtGGoldfish that I can build and improve. Maelstrom Wanderer has also been recommended to me. Both look fun. The people who complained about Kaalia haven't showed up in weeks, and those are the same people who impressed upon me how bad MLD is. The meta has changed and I'm seeing different sorts of people with different sorts of decks starting to show up.
@Justice: Perhaps a short description of my early experiences with EDH will explain a few things: I came into EDH with a Kaalia angel tribal deck that wasn't great, at least, not up to being Archenemy from the word “go”, but Kaalia meant I was targeted instantly almost every game I played, and had horrible experiences. I never got to see how good or bad the deck truly was, though, because I never actually saw it work. I had similar experiences with my second attempt, a Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith deck that's basically a minor upgrade of the Feline Ferocity precon, adding stuff like Sram, Senior Edificer, Puresteel Paladin, Open the Armory, Sigarda's Aid, etc. I began to think that it was retribution for me playing Kaalia, or maybe because I was new, or because I'm a woman, or whatever other stupid reason. I'm a Timmy, deckbuilding is not my forte. When I build my criteria tend to look like “how can I build a strategy around big creatures and flashy abilities?” I don't really care how often I win so long as it's sometimes, and every now and then I get to feel powerful.
@Spider_Waif: Like I said above, I will need help with the curve. I know that Mother of Runes is pretty much an auto-include, but with the rest of my strategy, I'm not sure which low-cost humans are worth running, and which angels I can do without.
I have no problem at all with creature wipes. Artifact wipes suck because there go all your mana rocks, but it's survivable. Mass land destruction, Stasis, and Winter Orb just feel different to me. Stops the game cold.
I guess I'll be rebuilding Kaalia in a more focused way, or building Maelstrom Wanderer... or another commander who's competitive and that a Timmy would have fun playing. Again, I'm not the expert, I know very little, so help is appreciated.
EDH's "social contract" is not really about playing or not playing particular cards or strategies. It's about playing in a way that the playgroup finds fun. Many playgroups prefer to play pretty "casually", with things like MLD and infinite combos house banned, but if a playgroup enjoys playing those things, then there's absolutely nothing wrong with the people in the group playing them.
Unfortunately, this can result in situations like the one you appear to find yourself in (if I've understood your posts correctly), in which your preferred playstlye doesn't match the rest of the group you're in. If finding another playgroup that fits you better is a reasonable option, then I'd certainly consider it - ultimately, you want to be having fun when playing EDH, and if you don't find playing against MLD and combos fun, then there's not really much point in doing so.
If there isn't really the option of changing playgroups, then you're probably going to have adapt your decks to some extent. One option which might be worth discussing with your group - remember, this is a social format, be social and talk to them - that's worked very well in my group is for the more competitive players (of which I am one) have our high power cEDH decks (i.e. the kind of thing which will take down the "powerful" decks you have in your meta without breaking a sweat), but we limit these decks to playing against each other, and we also have some more casual decks which we take out to play against the causal players when we there's not enough competitive people there to play, or indeed we just feel like a change. If you're not alone in wanting some more causal games, then this might be a compromise that the more competitive players in your meta might agree to (they each build a more casual deck to play when people like you are around) - especially if you tune up one of your decks that you get out when playing against their stronger decks so they can still play the way they want to.
When it comes to tuning up decks, oddly enough, if built with your playgroup's threats in mind, Archangel Avacyn strikes me as being pretty solid in a meta of MLD and mediocre combo decks like Mairsil. If people start moving up to Food Chain Tasri or Thrasios/Tymna Breakfast Hulk, then it's going to be outclassed, but from what you describe, it looks like you could do something with her. Boros decks will be, by necessity, running a lot of mana rocks (I'd typically try to get around 10 rocks of CMC 3 or less), so the MLD isn't that big an impact on you (indeed, if you're OK using it, I'd highly recommend running Armageddon in most RW decks - when used well it can help make up for those colours' weaknesses), and if people do blow up lands, you've got a good threat in the form of your general (and while flashing her in won't save your lands, it can mess with peoples plans of MLDing when they have the best board state) You've got access to a good amount of removal for all types of permanents to disrupt the combos - and having a general with flash encourages you to not tap out anyway. As a white deck, you've got access to plenty of disruptive effects - Rule of Law for example (which, again, synergises with a flash general...) - and red can chip in with Stranglehold and so on. Additionally, having a Anger of the Gods on tap is a really powerful effect that will disrupt a lot of strategies. On top of this, you can run Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker/Splinter Twin with Village Bell-Ringer/Restoration Angel as a combo win if the meta needs that - and half the combo has flash which again synergises with your general having the same. One of the guys in our group has an Avacyn deck, and while it can't compete with our best cEDH decks, against anything below that, it holds it's own pretty well.
How much I enjoy the game is fairly contingent on who's playing that week.
This, right here, is a nugget of wisdom. When it comes to playing games, I've found that who it is I spend my time with matters a heck of a lot more than what activity it is that I am doing. My advice to you is to act upon this observation. Go and actively find the people you most enjoy spending time with. Don't just hope the conditions you yearn for will cosmically align. Create that environment yourself. An LGS can be a great place for meeting new people, but remember that not all people may be worth your time. Learn who is, and learn who isn't. Don't feel compelled to make anyone with a shared interest of yours a friend just because. A little digging has made me a lot happier.
Part of me wants to build a Kaalia deck that even the Spikes will fear
For the love of all that is good, don't do this. Wanting to get back at your opponents for beating you to a pulp by powering up your deck (which is what I'm assuming your motivation is here), will not end well for you. It's an extremely common reaction, one I've witnessed a thousand times, and all of which ended horribly. I can even attest to that myself.
In almost all cases, what you will do by strengthening your deck to compete with Spikes is create an arms race with them. And if you thought your games were bad now, just wait until you raise the stakes. Then your opponents will start to feel vindicated, and they'll begin to do everything in their power to take the game away from you no matter how much you try. This, of course, comes at the enormous cost of good gameplay, so unless you're looking for an extremely cutthroat and possibly toxic game of Commander, never go down this road. Trust me. It isn't worth it.
The absolute best case scenario for embarking down this path would be if your retribution were successful. You would feel validated for having righted a wrong, but the Spikes still wouldn't respect you as a result. Instead, they would alienate you from their group, using whatever logic they deem necessary to justify their bitterness. The most likely outcome of pursuing this avenue is that you fail in your attempts instead. This will leave you frustrated, and thwarting your best efforts will bring immense satisfaction to the Spikes. Don't play the Spikes at their own game. Don't let other players manipulate you into playing anything you wouldn't enjoy playing against yourself.
It had been very strongly impressed upon me by people who used to be regulars to the group that mass land destruction was considered very rude and that you didn't play it if you cared at all about anyone else's enjoyment of the game. From them and the Command Zone podcast I've gotten the idea that it's breaking a social contract of sorts to play MLD.
Because nobody seems to have addressed this directly (oddly enough), I thought I ought to go ahead and affirm this. It isn't just your old playgroup; in Commander, MLD generally is frowned upon. This is because Commander, at its core, isn't a competitive format. It's a social format, one with several unwritten rules baked in. One of those rules, as you may have already ascertained, is about allowing your opponents to actually participate with you in the game. After all, Commander wouldn't be much of a social game if several players at the table weren't really able to play the game in the first place. MLD, by nature, tends to deprive players of that element.
You don't need to take my word alone though. Just look at Magic's history when it comes to MLD. Wizards has learned their lesson when it comes to what players like (and what the don't). The vast, and I really mean vast, vast majority of players overwhelming hate MLD. It's the reason why MLD is virtually absent from all Magic sets nowadays. In fact, we're only just now seeing our first MLD spell in years come Dominaria, and that spell returns lands to the battlefield two turns after having been played. Before that, we haven't seen any MLD since... Bearer of the Heavens? And that's more of an Obliterate, reset-the-game type of card. The next most recent MLD spell was Worldfire to my knowledge, and that card was banned near instantly in Commander. I think that was roughly five years ago?
Anyway, to tie this back to what I first wrote, if you're finding MLD to be unfun to play against (or you're entertaining the idea of using MLD yourself) find a group of like-minded players to engage with. What matters most is that everyone at the table is enjoying their time there. There wouldn't be much of a reason to play games together otherwise.
Quote from from="Gabrielle Angelfire »" url="/forums/the-game/commander-edh/792124-playing-a-75-deck-against-mass-land-destruction?comment=13"
@TheAmericanSpirit, TheDrB and hyalaperterouslemur: I see value in having a deck that"s more dangerous, and I can ask what sorts of decks people are playing before I decide what I"m going to play. As far as generals that I consider “competitive”, I currently own [card »
Kaalia of the Vast[/card] and have a few of the components for building the deck, including some MLD (I have fewer qualms running it if I know others are), and there is a budget list on MtGGoldfish that I can build and improve. Maelstrom Wanderer has also been recommended to me. Both look fun. The people who complained about Kaalia haven't showed up in weeks, and those are the same people who impressed upon me how bad MLD is. The meta has changed and I'm seeing different sorts of people with different sorts of decks starting to show up.
Highly recommend the wanderer as a flex deck. The inherent value the deck produces is always relevant, and the randomness helps scale to the table (but you can always Mystical Tutor into Jokulhaups too if things are getting silly). You won't be disappointed until you start loathing cascading into explosive vegetation or get bored of resolving mind's desire for 9+.
Part of me wants to build a Kaalia deck that even the Spikes will fear,
I say, Gabrielle, you fight fire with fire. I have done it. Go on, the look of your opponents' faces (the Spikes) is enough to worth whatever risk you take from running Kaalia. Screw the so-called Social Contract. The Spikes showed that they are not bothered about it. It is time tit for tat.
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GMR21=OYS, I know you.
Salt is part of the game. Deal with it.
@Justice: Perhaps a short description of my early experiences with EDH will explain a few things: I came into EDH with a Kaalia angel tribal deck that wasn't great, at least, not up to being Archenemy from the word “go”, but Kaalia meant I was targeted instantly almost every game I played, and had horrible experiences. I never got to see how good or bad the deck truly was, though, because I never actually saw it work. I had similar experiences with my second attempt, a Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith deck that's basically a minor upgrade of the Feline Ferocity precon, adding stuff like Sram, Senior Edificer, Puresteel Paladin, Open the Armory, Sigarda's Aid, etc. I began to think that it was retribution for me playing Kaalia, or maybe because I was new, or because I'm a woman, or whatever other stupid reason. I'm a Timmy, deckbuilding is not my forte. When I build my criteria tend to look like “how can I build a strategy around big creatures and flashy abilities?” I don't really care how often I win so long as it's sometimes, and every now and then I get to feel powerful.
I have heard that a lot of people have similar experiences with Kaalia. I’d consider the possibility that it not working has a lot to do with Kaalia. She’s a fragile 2/2 that everyone will assume is about to drop Rakdos the Defiler on them. And, all that they need to do is point a Sword of Fire and Ice trigger at her. It’s low investment-high reward to stop that. I have seen Kaalia decks work, but they are fully tripped out with all kinds of Mardu denial (land destruction, etc), plenty of recursion to hand for the beaters, and they want to drop Kaalia one time and stop everyone from doing anything for the rest of the game. But, there is not a lot of middle ground with her. She just needs so much protection that it is difficult to strike a balance. Unfortunate, really.
I am surprised to hear bad experiences with Nazahn though. Some people don’t like getting attacked out of a game by a commander though, and it’s also a fairly straightforward approach to target the person at the table to represents the quickest clock. Creature strategies do tend to benefit a lot from protection like Greaves and the Indestructible Hammer, but that also sometimes sets off alarm bells in other players’ heads that they are about to get knocked out with Might of Oaks or something and not have anything that they can do about it. Tough spot also.
To counter MLD I have Avacyn, Angel of Hope, Boros Charm and Sun Titan (which I still need to buy) . I've considered Suppression Field, Darksteel Mutation, and Overwhelming Splendor for Mairsil.
It sounds like the only trouble then is just drawing these cards from your deck at the right time. Honestly, Boros is a very tough color-combination to play (particularly without access to Scroll Rack, Land Tax, and the other premium cards). It has challenges drawing. That is territory where narrowly-tailored options like Suppression Field and Darksteel Mutation are particularly challenging to run. You are down one in hand size, and are no closer to winning. That’s why these decks naturally gravitate toward very comprehensive, pre-emptive disruption like Land Destruction. Again, it is really hard to find middle ground. If you consider yourself a relative newcomer to the game, I would keep that in mind. Boros is a challenge even for seasoned players.
If you have the patience for it, I’d suggest a bit of a change of pace. Maybe try something with more draw and recursion in it, and better access to ramp. Decks with Black and/or Green in them tend to produce lots of fuel in the graveyard, which can free you up to run more answer cards.
First, I'd like to apologize for not getting to this sooner. I wanted to give the response that comments deserve, and I've been busy of late.
@arrogantAxolotl: I found out that the EDH league at another store subtracts points for using MLD, so I may start playing there this week. I had made “friends” at my LGS, but they haven't talked to me in 2 months, after a few messages from me, so I'm not holding high hopes. They comforted me after someone double-crossed me during a game, and then when I frowned, hung my head, and showed obvious sadness, told me that “that's why women shouldn't play Magic”. He was a Mairsil player. Anyhow, I'll be looking for another group, perhaps even one that meets outside of an LGS and is invite only. That would be ideal.
After thinking on deckbuilding, I agree that I shouldn't be powering up my deck for that reason, but I do want to tune my deck, get better, and to build another that is of a higher power level, but not on the level that it would be the Spike-killer I had originally thought I wanted. I still want to be seen as a causal, because I am one. I'll avoid commanders with bad reputations, like Narset, Zur, Oloro, and Kaalia so I don't get seen as someone trying to build a power deck. I was wanting to build Maelstrom Wanderer, but that might send the wrong signal, unfortunately.
Other ideas for decks I have are to work on my Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith cat equipment deck, or to build tribal elves with Nath of the Gilt-Leaf or Selvala, Explorer Returned, the Nath deck obviously having a discard subtheme, or maybe squirrel tokens with Mirri, Weatherlight Duelist, Selesnya humans with Sigarda, Heron's Grace, or life gain with Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim, or a Firesong and Sunspeaker Sunforger burn/lifegain control deck, a budget version of the one here on the forums. Other ideas are graveyard with Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord. Maybe Queen Marchesa, Alesha, Who Smiles at Death, or something with good ramp that I can put down large creatures with, to satisfy my Timmy-ness. Anything that says, “I'm here to play creative and themed decks, cut loose, have fun, and make friends.” I HATE being the Archenemy. I started to take it as bullying, and took it personally, like I was being punished for playing Kaalia at the start, or for being new, or for being a woman, or LGBT, or whatever the heck they disliked me for.
@Jusstice: Kaalia is very fragile for a reason. She drops huge bombs, as opposed to Alesha, Who Smiles at Death, who brings in smaller creatures in Mardu colors, is also fragile, and might be seen as a smaller threat. Alesha appeals to me as well, partly because she's a transwoman like I am.
My bad experiences with Nazahn mostly involve stuff like being way behind on lands with nothing other than lands on the board, and dropping a Zendikar Resurgent, which would have still put me behind in mana because of all the dorks and rocks on the table, with nothing of use myself on the table, and then next turn have my Nazahn countered by a different person. I tilted and then scooped, which I figured was a better alternative than having choice words with the people ganging up on me.
Of the decks I've listed, tribal elves (Nath or Selvala) and Maelstrom Wanderer would likely have the best ramp, and any of the decks with black or green in them would have excellent card draw, plus I already have some of the best draw spells for black, and Alesha would be a good recursion engine, and I could also get good recursion from black and/or green.
@PhroX: I'm weak to MLD because I only have 5 cheap mana rocks, a Hedron Archive, and the rest is equipment and creatures that fetch or become lands. I'm running Sol Ring, Boros Signet, Chromatic Lantern, Worn Powerstone, and Commander's Sphere. For other cheap options I'm only aware of the Keyrune, the Cluestone, and Fellwar Stone, which would likely suck in a 2 color deck, and the two Diamonds from Mirage. I guess that makes 10 total.
I might modify the Archangel Avacyn deck, but I don't want to make it too threatening, because I hate being Archenemy, and for the reasons arrogantAxolotl pointed out: I don't want to beat the Spikes at their own game, nor can I, really. Honestly, I think Selsenya is better colors for a human deck with angels in it, though, and I'd make that a Sigarda, Heron's Grace deck.
@everyone: I want to likely still play my angel deck, but in its current form, until I decide what changes, if any, I want to make. I have some options: Finish swapping out cards to get Nazahn where I want him, though I have a history of frustration playing him, or start on a new deck. I have lots of ideas, but not a lot of money.
I need something I can build on a budget, but I can't decide if I build a new deck if I want to go tokens with Mirri, humans with Alesha or Sigarda, lifegain with Ayli, or perhaps Nath or Selvala elves. Maelstrom Wanderer sounds like a lot of fun, but it might send the wrong message, that I'm trying to be a Spike too. I have a feeling I'll end up building all of these eventually, but I have no idea what to do first. Maybe we can discuss the pros and cons to help me decide? I'd appreciate that a lot. I fully intend to bounce back from this. The quote in my sig is from Resolute Archangel, and I believe it wholeheartedly.
Edit: Keep in mind I'm a fairly new player and want something that isn't hard to pilot.
I'm running Sol Ring, Boros Signet, Chromatic Lantern, Worn Powerstone, and Commander's Sphere. For other cheap options I'm only aware of the Keyrune, the Cluestone, and Fellwar Stone, which would likely suck in a 2 color deck, and the two Diamonds from Mirage. I guess that makes 10 total.
As for which deck to build, I think you'd enjoy Alesha. She can feel very powerful when you're taking people out with Master of Cruelties or just generating tons of value by reanimating weenies without being oppressive.
Hopefully you can find a playgroup you mesh with. Unfortunately, the cold, hard truth is that Magic is played predominantly by male nerds, and male nerds are the worst people on the planet. Everyone deserves to be treated with respect and dignity.
Yes, Alesha does look like fun, and Master of Cruelties is good tech for an Alesha deck. I could build her tribal humans,tribal warriors, or I could go a different direction. I can also see Angel of Glory's Rise being good in the deck if I go humans, because it does exactly what I want it to, and also might hose the zombie deck in our play group, if someone happens to be playing it, and Selfless Squire is also good tech in this deck. You can make her big with the +1/+1 counters, and then she's still able to be recurred with Alesha, though just as a 1/1. She's still a 1/1 body, in any case. Still thinking and open to other suggestions and more discussion.
I agree wholeheartedly on the respect and dignity, and I'm starting to get some. It's wonderful.
Hopefully you can find a playgroup you mesh with. Unfortunately, the cold, hard truth is that Magic is played predominantly by male nerds, and male nerds are the worst people on the planet.
This made me laugh because of how true it is.
@Gabrielle, I don't think Maelstrom Wanderer sends the wrong idea. It's hardly a spike deck, and it seems like it'd be right up your alley. Big splashy commander with free stuff attached for every cast, it's a good time even if you don't win - it's money for nothing, chicks for free (to quote the great Mark Knopfler). I'd give it a go. The good thing is if you can cast MW again after land destruction you get instant board presence with haste.
Maelstrom Wanderer seems a strong choice. Alesha would be fun too. I really like all my choices. Sigarda is tempting as well, because you know how I love angels. This is so difficult, because like I said, I have two decks I want to upgrade, and 7 decks I think would be really fun to build. Do you have this problem too, Toc? I know you have several decks already. I count 14. I guess over time I'll build everything I want, eventually.. but what comes next is something I need advice on. They all have strengths. I like angels, I like elves, I like squirrels (just look at my forum avatar). Alesha is very interesting as a character, and a transgender character in a fantasy game is refreshing, add that to what GloriousGoose said about generating value and being powerful without looking like you're an instant threat. Elves ramp incredibly well, but board wipes will suck. Same goes with tokens. Getting a ton of stuff on the board quickly. Lifegain is something I've been wanting to do from the beginning, and it provides a style of play I haven't tried before and might be a lot of fun; I almost built Ayli instead of Kaalia first, but Kaalia has a preconstructed deck I could build on instead of building Ayli from scratch. Now I WANT to build a deck from the ground up, starting with selection of my commander, so who I choose isn't based on a precon.. in fact, I don't want to use any of the precon commanders, I already have two. With MS, as soon as I cast him, eyes will be on me, I'm guessing, but it seems like a deck like that would be resilient enough to handle it.
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Special thanks to Bella for my sig
"Cut it down, bury it in the snow, put it to the torch. The rose will still bloom again."
They use cards like Jokulhaups, Cataclysm and Desolation Angel, or really fast combo strategies like one very well-tuned Mairsil, the Pretender deck. We still have goofy theme decks and other 75% decks in the meta, but we are either getting crushed by the 100% decks, or mass land destruction is being used to prolong the game by an absurd amount of time until the MLD player can regroup and finally win. I've told the MLD players that it's not appreciated, and I've been met with either "So?" or excuses like "I only play this if the game is going on too long" (which is a load of crap because MLD prolongs games the way people tend to play it). I've told numerous people including the new Spikes that my deck is mostly a theme deck that works fairly well, but is not yet properly tuned, as I'm missing some important expensive cards, and it's not intended to be totally cutthroat.
How much I enjoy the game is fairly contingent on who's playing that week. Winning isn't really important to me; certainly a lot less important than everyone in the group having an enjoyable game. I still had fun this week, but it wasn't very fun to have the other remaining player pretty much dead only to have Jokulhaups cast and an angel taken from my graveyard to slowly kill me (I was at over 40 life and he took Angel of the Dire Hour after spending a few turns building his mana back up... yes he beat me with the angel in my sig picture). I'm sort of at a loss as to what to do. My local game store does seem to attract Spikes, but until recently the multiplayer EDH players have been casuals like me. Part of me wants to build a Kaalia deck that even the Spikes will fear, part of me wants to wait it out and see if the Spikes stay, still playing what makes me happy, and part of me wants to go to the other local game store and see if things are different in their commander league as opposed to open multiplayer pick-up games.
RWArchangel Avacyn, GWNazahn, Revered Bladesmith, RKari Zev, Skyship Raider (French Duel)
RWArchangel Avacyn, GWNazahn, Revered Bladesmith, RKari Zev, Skyship Raider (French Duel)
Looking at as anything other than a form of control saved for the more direct and aggressive colors is flawed assessment. A Counterspell stops the card the Armageddon stops the fuel for the card, both get the same result. The bigger ones Jokulhaups and Obliterate flatten the progress of ramp of all kinds which EDH tends to drift towards if it is let to.
Sure the better play is playing them with Boros Charm or a bunch of other things now but they are still good answers when you find yourself in a good spot and want to tip the game.
RWArchangel Avacyn, GWNazahn, Revered Bladesmith, RKari Zev, Skyship Raider (French Duel)
Never played at a table that frowned on them, more what I find is frowned on is the more general attitude of playing something for spite or anger that probably transferred onto the card used and built a stigma.
Given what you have said, and looking at your posted deck list, I find it likely you are not fully understanding what is going on.
Perhaps there is a problem that, if unable to be resolved through discussion, would require one or more parties involved to leave.
However, it sounds like an inexperienced player (you) are playing with a weaker deck (I would guage your list to be at ~50%, not 75%) against strategies you have not learned to deal with, and have come here to complain instead of improving.
I am also fairly certain they are not playing '100%' decks. Probably in the 75% - 909% range. From your description, it honestly sounds like the MLD player is bad at it, and shouldn't even be playing those effects. With a bit of experience, his or her opponents should be able to punish him for it easily.
To be clear, being a good player is not synonymous with being a competative player.
Playing a strong deck is not synonymous with playing a competative deck.
Opponents playing with effects you do not like does not make them spikes.
To be a good player, you simply need to be able to learn and improve, both at deck construction and gameplay.
At a gameplay level, what are you having difficulty with?
If mass creature removal is causing problems, do not over-commit creatures to the board. Play enough to present a legitimate threat, but no more so you can recover from a 'wrath'.
If counterspells are a problem, learn to guage what level of threat your cards are to the player, and provoke a response with a lesser threat to clear the way for a greater one (if they do not answer the lesser threats, you still have pressure on them).
If you are having issue with mass land destruction, do not default to playing a land every turn. Play only what you need, and hold the rest in hand.
If combo is the issue, learn how the combo works, and hold creature removal, graveyard removal, or whatever else is appropriate to interupt it.
For deck construction, again look at what the problems are, and figure out how to address them.
What cards can counter those effects? What is the cost of playing them (combination of how effective they are, and how narrow they are - what are you not playing in their place)?
Is there a more general change you can make?
Looking at your deck, first thing is your curve is way to high. It takes you too long before you can reasonably affect the game, making you vulnerable to any faster or just more efficient decks. This also makes it vastly more difficult to recover from mass land destruction.
You say you want to play an Avacyn-themed angel tribal deck? Angels are expensive. Instead, consider a 'Church of Avacyn' deck, using a human tribal theme for the lower curve, with a smaller angel tribal theme for the top.
Sunforger & Mistveil Plains are cheap, and cards you should be playing in that type of deck anyway. With Boros Charm, they provide recurring immunity to those sweeper effects.
Karmic Justice is also a card worth considering if your opponents rely on mass noncreature removal.
For Mairsil, the Pretender, something as simpple as Arrest can cause immense trouble for the player (though I personally find it too weak without a consistent way of recurring it). Phyrexian Revoker, Pithing Needle, Cursed Totem, & Damping Matrix all lock him out of using abilities while they are on the battlefield.
Torpor Orb & Hushwing Gryff restricts his access to those abilities to begin with. Graveyard removal also limits his options. Every deck should have two or three dedicated pieces of grave hate, more if the meta demands. Which ones you use depends on your deck, but common strong options include Rest in Peace, Relic of Progenitus, or even Tormod's Crypt.
White has variety of similar effects available to it. These are all often worth playing as general hate cards, even without a specific target.
Angel of Jubilation is a powerful hate card against a variety of effects and combos commonly played in the format.
A bit more expensive, you have Teferi's Protection - also searchable and recurable with Sunforger + Mistveil.
The white fetch lands (Flooded Strand, Marsh Flats, Arid Mesa, & Windswept Heath) all improve the consistency of your mana base, and all can find Mistveil Plains.
The remaining red fetch lands (Scalding Tarn, Bloodstained Mire, & Wooded Foothills) cannot find Mistveil Plains, but are still well worth considering.
Land Tax & Scroll Rack higher cost (monitarily), but both can help recover from mass land destruction, and provide a powerful card 'draw' engine when combined.
A Dying Wish
To Rise Again
Chainer, Dementia Master
Muldrotha, the Gravetide
Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
You have to think of edh like hunting, in a manner: some days, you're only up against squirrels, so your grandad's .22 plinker is the right tool for the job. You want to kill a radioactive shark demon, well, you're going to need a bigger boat.
You're not wrong for enjoying the .22 for what it is, but sometimes you need a bazooka and there's really no alternative path towards success. So go build a bazooka.
As for the MLD decks? Just pack all the anti-MLD you can find (Boros Charm / Faith's Reward / Sacred Ground, et al). If they make their play and it doesn't hobble you, they are just super dead.
MLD has value as a strategy. The problem with MLD is when Bob has no creatures, no Propaganda effects or anything like that, and Bob casts Armageddon.
If they're complaining about Kaalia, playing MLD is kinda hypocritical, though. It's like people who drop Cabal Coffers and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, and then get mad at my little Strip Mine.
On phasing:
First, I see the term “75% deck” misused about 100% of the time. The term is intended for a deck that is “just good enough to beat a deck built to be 100% optimal if I play tight and get lucky.” “…That way, it is a challenge for me and allows me to benefit from the 100% decks facing opposition from some of the other players at the table. These 75% decks are also not going to turn four an entire table of casual players…” (http://www.gatheringmagic.com/jasonalt-021314-building-a-75-commander-deck/).
So by original definition, a 75% deck needs to have some marginal chance to take a game off of a table of 100% decks. But most decks people claim are “75%” don’t have a snowball’s chance. The term just seems to be used as a way of saying that you are playing whatever the world you want, and any deck that beats you is piloted by a player who doesn’t get it. You do have to actually put in some effort to build to this theory of “75%”. You can’t just build a Warrior tribal deck with Stangg, call it “75%”, and then claim that it is your deckbuilding theory that is preventing you from making a fair showing at a table.
Two, the entire theory of 75% is contradictory, as originally authored – “In a good night of Commander for my playgroup, I will win 1 ÷ X games, where X is the number of players at the table.”
Of course presuming everyone else is playing a “100% deck”, you have a far lower chance of winning. Actually, your chances of winning are exactly the above if you, in fact, are playing 100% against everyone else’s 100%. It is simply a proportional chance to win, aside all other factors. So a deck whose card power is 75% of what is possible in the format I would say has such a low chance of winning against 100% decks that no person would be satisfied playing one in an environment like that. So if the goal is to have involvement in a game that grows beyond what you designed for your deck, then you will fail that goal by building 75%. Based on the above equation, you only reach this level of balance and participation when the power of your deck is exactly what everyone else’s is.
I think the real concept presented in that series is one that just about every source on EDH has commented on – scaleability. (In fact, it goes on to explain how clones scale to the creature-beats decks you are facing). What you want is for your deck to be able to scale to the competition you encounter. Again, you won’t get there automatically. You have to actually play up to the competition. If you are going to do it in a way that doesn’t abruptly foreclose on less explosive decks, then you will generally do it by playing a high answer-density. Ironically that is the exact opposite of the design space the self-styled “75%” players seem like they want to carve out for themselves – one where Clone spamming is a reasonable approach to a game.
In the end, if you do want to play up to these MLD and combo decks, then you will have to react. Play either land-recursion or White-based defensive cards against the MLD. Play lots of Instant removal for combo pieces, and Pithing Needle effects for Mairsil and other such.
In my experience, MLD is unpopular, but in my experience (obviously yours can differ) it's not a horrible breach of some unwritten social contract that will cause your friends to stop talking to you. Poorly used MLD sucks, but it doesn't really make the game go on longer unless the MLD just keeps using it over and over again without any clear goal, but this generally happens with creature wipes as well.
Yeah it's unfun. So is Merciless Eviction and Hour of Revelation. Boardwipes are unfun, but they're necessary because short of counterspells and protect-your-board instants, they're a pretty effective means of simplifying the board and pulling the leading players back. MLD serves a very similar purpose.
Plus, if MLD is run often enough that it's a problem for you, you can run counters to it.
It had been very strongly impressed upon me by people who used to be regulars to the group that mass land destruction was considered very rude and that you didn't play it if you cared at all about anyone else's enjoyment of the game. From them and the Command Zone podcast I've gotten the idea that it's breaking a social contract of sorts to play MLD. As far as graveyard hate goes, I only have Angel of Finality, and no way to tutor for it. If I need more, I'll add more.
I can't afford the expensive fetch lands, Land Tax, Scroll Rack, Sword of Fire and Ice, Plateau etc. I'm on a very limited budget. I have a fair bit of recursion in my deck, so I'd prefer targeted grave hate for my second piece, something like a Tormod's Crypt.
I think lowering the curve might be a really good idea, but I really have no idea where to start. I think I'd likely have to totally retool the deck and go with a totally different strategy than I'm using, and that would mean investing a LOT more money into the deck than I already have (which is quite a lot, especially for someone disabled like I am).
As far as play goes, my biggest weaknesses are group politics, managing threat assessment (making a deck look scarier than it is so I get targeted, then being unable to play Archenemy when I have to), and a combination of the two, namely, convincing people I'm not a huge threat, because, I'm far from the best player at most tables, nor is my deck the best usually because of budget concerns. I originally came to these forums seeking deckbuilding and play advice.
@TheAmericanSpirit, TheDrB and hyalaperterouslemur: I see value in having a deck that's more dangerous, and I can ask what sorts of decks people are playing before I decide what I'm going to play. As far as generals that I consider “competitive”, I currently own Kaalia of the Vast and have a few of the components for building the deck, including some MLD (I have fewer qualms running it if I know others are), and there is a budget list on MtGGoldfish that I can build and improve. Maelstrom Wanderer has also been recommended to me. Both look fun. The people who complained about Kaalia haven't showed up in weeks, and those are the same people who impressed upon me how bad MLD is. The meta has changed and I'm seeing different sorts of people with different sorts of decks starting to show up.
@Justice: Perhaps a short description of my early experiences with EDH will explain a few things: I came into EDH with a Kaalia angel tribal deck that wasn't great, at least, not up to being Archenemy from the word “go”, but Kaalia meant I was targeted instantly almost every game I played, and had horrible experiences. I never got to see how good or bad the deck truly was, though, because I never actually saw it work. I had similar experiences with my second attempt, a Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith deck that's basically a minor upgrade of the Feline Ferocity precon, adding stuff like Sram, Senior Edificer, Puresteel Paladin, Open the Armory, Sigarda's Aid, etc. I began to think that it was retribution for me playing Kaalia, or maybe because I was new, or because I'm a woman, or whatever other stupid reason. I'm a Timmy, deckbuilding is not my forte. When I build my criteria tend to look like “how can I build a strategy around big creatures and flashy abilities?” I don't really care how often I win so long as it's sometimes, and every now and then I get to feel powerful.
To counter MLD I have Avacyn, Angel of Hope, Boros Charm and Sun Titan (which I still need to buy) . I've considered Suppression Field, Darksteel Mutation, and Overwhelming Splendor for Mairsil.
@Spider_Waif: Like I said above, I will need help with the curve. I know that Mother of Runes is pretty much an auto-include, but with the rest of my strategy, I'm not sure which low-cost humans are worth running, and which angels I can do without.
I have no problem at all with creature wipes. Artifact wipes suck because there go all your mana rocks, but it's survivable. Mass land destruction, Stasis, and Winter Orb just feel different to me. Stops the game cold.
I guess I'll be rebuilding Kaalia in a more focused way, or building Maelstrom Wanderer... or another commander who's competitive and that a Timmy would have fun playing. Again, I'm not the expert, I know very little, so help is appreciated.
RWArchangel Avacyn, GWNazahn, Revered Bladesmith, RKari Zev, Skyship Raider (French Duel)
Unfortunately, this can result in situations like the one you appear to find yourself in (if I've understood your posts correctly), in which your preferred playstlye doesn't match the rest of the group you're in. If finding another playgroup that fits you better is a reasonable option, then I'd certainly consider it - ultimately, you want to be having fun when playing EDH, and if you don't find playing against MLD and combos fun, then there's not really much point in doing so.
If there isn't really the option of changing playgroups, then you're probably going to have adapt your decks to some extent. One option which might be worth discussing with your group - remember, this is a social format, be social and talk to them - that's worked very well in my group is for the more competitive players (of which I am one) have our high power cEDH decks (i.e. the kind of thing which will take down the "powerful" decks you have in your meta without breaking a sweat), but we limit these decks to playing against each other, and we also have some more casual decks which we take out to play against the causal players when we there's not enough competitive people there to play, or indeed we just feel like a change. If you're not alone in wanting some more causal games, then this might be a compromise that the more competitive players in your meta might agree to (they each build a more casual deck to play when people like you are around) - especially if you tune up one of your decks that you get out when playing against their stronger decks so they can still play the way they want to.
When it comes to tuning up decks, oddly enough, if built with your playgroup's threats in mind, Archangel Avacyn strikes me as being pretty solid in a meta of MLD and mediocre combo decks like Mairsil. If people start moving up to Food Chain Tasri or Thrasios/Tymna Breakfast Hulk, then it's going to be outclassed, but from what you describe, it looks like you could do something with her. Boros decks will be, by necessity, running a lot of mana rocks (I'd typically try to get around 10 rocks of CMC 3 or less), so the MLD isn't that big an impact on you (indeed, if you're OK using it, I'd highly recommend running Armageddon in most RW decks - when used well it can help make up for those colours' weaknesses), and if people do blow up lands, you've got a good threat in the form of your general (and while flashing her in won't save your lands, it can mess with peoples plans of MLDing when they have the best board state) You've got access to a good amount of removal for all types of permanents to disrupt the combos - and having a general with flash encourages you to not tap out anyway. As a white deck, you've got access to plenty of disruptive effects - Rule of Law for example (which, again, synergises with a flash general...) - and red can chip in with Stranglehold and so on. Additionally, having a Anger of the Gods on tap is a really powerful effect that will disrupt a lot of strategies. On top of this, you can run Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker/Splinter Twin with Village Bell-Ringer/Restoration Angel as a combo win if the meta needs that - and half the combo has flash which again synergises with your general having the same. One of the guys in our group has an Avacyn deck, and while it can't compete with our best cEDH decks, against anything below that, it holds it's own pretty well.
For the love of all that is good, don't do this. Wanting to get back at your opponents for beating you to a pulp by powering up your deck (which is what I'm assuming your motivation is here), will not end well for you. It's an extremely common reaction, one I've witnessed a thousand times, and all of which ended horribly. I can even attest to that myself.
In almost all cases, what you will do by strengthening your deck to compete with Spikes is create an arms race with them. And if you thought your games were bad now, just wait until you raise the stakes. Then your opponents will start to feel vindicated, and they'll begin to do everything in their power to take the game away from you no matter how much you try. This, of course, comes at the enormous cost of good gameplay, so unless you're looking for an extremely cutthroat and possibly toxic game of Commander, never go down this road. Trust me. It isn't worth it.
The absolute best case scenario for embarking down this path would be if your retribution were successful. You would feel validated for having righted a wrong, but the Spikes still wouldn't respect you as a result. Instead, they would alienate you from their group, using whatever logic they deem necessary to justify their bitterness. The most likely outcome of pursuing this avenue is that you fail in your attempts instead. This will leave you frustrated, and thwarting your best efforts will bring immense satisfaction to the Spikes. Don't play the Spikes at their own game. Don't let other players manipulate you into playing anything you wouldn't enjoy playing against yourself.
Because nobody seems to have addressed this directly (oddly enough), I thought I ought to go ahead and affirm this. It isn't just your old playgroup; in Commander, MLD generally is frowned upon. This is because Commander, at its core, isn't a competitive format. It's a social format, one with several unwritten rules baked in. One of those rules, as you may have already ascertained, is about allowing your opponents to actually participate with you in the game. After all, Commander wouldn't be much of a social game if several players at the table weren't really able to play the game in the first place. MLD, by nature, tends to deprive players of that element.
You don't need to take my word alone though. Just look at Magic's history when it comes to MLD. Wizards has learned their lesson when it comes to what players like (and what the don't). The vast, and I really mean vast, vast majority of players overwhelming hate MLD. It's the reason why MLD is virtually absent from all Magic sets nowadays. In fact, we're only just now seeing our first MLD spell in years come Dominaria, and that spell returns lands to the battlefield two turns after having been played. Before that, we haven't seen any MLD since... Bearer of the Heavens? And that's more of an Obliterate, reset-the-game type of card. The next most recent MLD spell was Worldfire to my knowledge, and that card was banned near instantly in Commander. I think that was roughly five years ago?
Anyway, to tie this back to what I first wrote, if you're finding MLD to be unfun to play against (or you're entertaining the idea of using MLD yourself) find a group of like-minded players to engage with. What matters most is that everyone at the table is enjoying their time there. There wouldn't be much of a reason to play games together otherwise.
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
Highly recommend the wanderer as a flex deck. The inherent value the deck produces is always relevant, and the randomness helps scale to the table (but you can always Mystical Tutor into Jokulhaups too if things are getting silly). You won't be disappointed until you start loathing cascading into explosive vegetation or get bored of resolving mind's desire for 9+.
This should be one of the 10 commandments of EDH.
I say, Gabrielle, you fight fire with fire. I have done it. Go on, the look of your opponents' faces (the Spikes) is enough to worth whatever risk you take from running Kaalia. Screw the so-called Social Contract. The Spikes showed that they are not bothered about it. It is time tit for tat.
Salt is part of the game. Deal with it.
I have heard that a lot of people have similar experiences with Kaalia. I’d consider the possibility that it not working has a lot to do with Kaalia. She’s a fragile 2/2 that everyone will assume is about to drop Rakdos the Defiler on them. And, all that they need to do is point a Sword of Fire and Ice trigger at her. It’s low investment-high reward to stop that. I have seen Kaalia decks work, but they are fully tripped out with all kinds of Mardu denial (land destruction, etc), plenty of recursion to hand for the beaters, and they want to drop Kaalia one time and stop everyone from doing anything for the rest of the game. But, there is not a lot of middle ground with her. She just needs so much protection that it is difficult to strike a balance. Unfortunate, really.
I am surprised to hear bad experiences with Nazahn though. Some people don’t like getting attacked out of a game by a commander though, and it’s also a fairly straightforward approach to target the person at the table to represents the quickest clock. Creature strategies do tend to benefit a lot from protection like Greaves and the Indestructible Hammer, but that also sometimes sets off alarm bells in other players’ heads that they are about to get knocked out with Might of Oaks or something and not have anything that they can do about it. Tough spot also.
It sounds like the only trouble then is just drawing these cards from your deck at the right time. Honestly, Boros is a very tough color-combination to play (particularly without access to Scroll Rack, Land Tax, and the other premium cards). It has challenges drawing. That is territory where narrowly-tailored options like Suppression Field and Darksteel Mutation are particularly challenging to run. You are down one in hand size, and are no closer to winning. That’s why these decks naturally gravitate toward very comprehensive, pre-emptive disruption like Land Destruction. Again, it is really hard to find middle ground. If you consider yourself a relative newcomer to the game, I would keep that in mind. Boros is a challenge even for seasoned players.
If you have the patience for it, I’d suggest a bit of a change of pace. Maybe try something with more draw and recursion in it, and better access to ramp. Decks with Black and/or Green in them tend to produce lots of fuel in the graveyard, which can free you up to run more answer cards.
@arrogantAxolotl: I found out that the EDH league at another store subtracts points for using MLD, so I may start playing there this week. I had made “friends” at my LGS, but they haven't talked to me in 2 months, after a few messages from me, so I'm not holding high hopes. They comforted me after someone double-crossed me during a game, and then when I frowned, hung my head, and showed obvious sadness, told me that “that's why women shouldn't play Magic”. He was a Mairsil player. Anyhow, I'll be looking for another group, perhaps even one that meets outside of an LGS and is invite only. That would be ideal.
After thinking on deckbuilding, I agree that I shouldn't be powering up my deck for that reason, but I do want to tune my deck, get better, and to build another that is of a higher power level, but not on the level that it would be the Spike-killer I had originally thought I wanted. I still want to be seen as a causal, because I am one. I'll avoid commanders with bad reputations, like Narset, Zur, Oloro, and Kaalia so I don't get seen as someone trying to build a power deck. I was wanting to build Maelstrom Wanderer, but that might send the wrong signal, unfortunately.
Other ideas for decks I have are to work on my Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith cat equipment deck, or to build tribal elves with Nath of the Gilt-Leaf or Selvala, Explorer Returned, the Nath deck obviously having a discard subtheme, or maybe squirrel tokens with Mirri, Weatherlight Duelist, Selesnya humans with Sigarda, Heron's Grace, or life gain with Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim, or a Firesong and Sunspeaker Sunforger burn/lifegain control deck, a budget version of the one here on the forums. Other ideas are graveyard with Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord. Maybe Queen Marchesa, Alesha, Who Smiles at Death, or something with good ramp that I can put down large creatures with, to satisfy my Timmy-ness. Anything that says, “I'm here to play creative and themed decks, cut loose, have fun, and make friends.” I HATE being the Archenemy. I started to take it as bullying, and took it personally, like I was being punished for playing Kaalia at the start, or for being new, or for being a woman, or LGBT, or whatever the heck they disliked me for.
@Jusstice: Kaalia is very fragile for a reason. She drops huge bombs, as opposed to Alesha, Who Smiles at Death, who brings in smaller creatures in Mardu colors, is also fragile, and might be seen as a smaller threat. Alesha appeals to me as well, partly because she's a transwoman like I am.
My bad experiences with Nazahn mostly involve stuff like being way behind on lands with nothing other than lands on the board, and dropping a Zendikar Resurgent, which would have still put me behind in mana because of all the dorks and rocks on the table, with nothing of use myself on the table, and then next turn have my Nazahn countered by a different person. I tilted and then scooped, which I figured was a better alternative than having choice words with the people ganging up on me.
Of the decks I've listed, tribal elves (Nath or Selvala) and Maelstrom Wanderer would likely have the best ramp, and any of the decks with black or green in them would have excellent card draw, plus I already have some of the best draw spells for black, and Alesha would be a good recursion engine, and I could also get good recursion from black and/or green.
@PhroX: I'm weak to MLD because I only have 5 cheap mana rocks, a Hedron Archive, and the rest is equipment and creatures that fetch or become lands. I'm running Sol Ring, Boros Signet, Chromatic Lantern, Worn Powerstone, and Commander's Sphere. For other cheap options I'm only aware of the Keyrune, the Cluestone, and Fellwar Stone, which would likely suck in a 2 color deck, and the two Diamonds from Mirage. I guess that makes 10 total.
I might modify the Archangel Avacyn deck, but I don't want to make it too threatening, because I hate being Archenemy, and for the reasons arrogantAxolotl pointed out: I don't want to beat the Spikes at their own game, nor can I, really. Honestly, I think Selsenya is better colors for a human deck with angels in it, though, and I'd make that a Sigarda, Heron's Grace deck.
@everyone: I want to likely still play my angel deck, but in its current form, until I decide what changes, if any, I want to make. I have some options: Finish swapping out cards to get Nazahn where I want him, though I have a history of frustration playing him, or start on a new deck. I have lots of ideas, but not a lot of money.
I need something I can build on a budget, but I can't decide if I build a new deck if I want to go tokens with Mirri, humans with Alesha or Sigarda, lifegain with Ayli, or perhaps Nath or Selvala elves. Maelstrom Wanderer sounds like a lot of fun, but it might send the wrong message, that I'm trying to be a Spike too. I have a feeling I'll end up building all of these eventually, but I have no idea what to do first. Maybe we can discuss the pros and cons to help me decide? I'd appreciate that a lot. I fully intend to bounce back from this. The quote in my sig is from Resolute Archangel, and I believe it wholeheartedly.
Edit: Keep in mind I'm a fairly new player and want something that isn't hard to pilot.
RWArchangel Avacyn, GWNazahn, Revered Bladesmith, RKari Zev, Skyship Raider (French Duel)
There's also Mind Stone, Thought Vessel, Coldsteel Heart, Star Compass, and Prismatic Lens. Fellwar Stone is fantastic even if no one is playing your colors because it comes into play untapped.
This is a solid resource for mana rocks.
As for which deck to build, I think you'd enjoy Alesha. She can feel very powerful when you're taking people out with Master of Cruelties or just generating tons of value by reanimating weenies without being oppressive.
Hopefully you can find a playgroup you mesh with. Unfortunately, the cold, hard truth is that Magic is played predominantly by male nerds, and male nerds are the worst people on the planet. Everyone deserves to be treated with respect and dignity.
[Primer] Erebos, God of the Dead
HONK HONK
I agree wholeheartedly on the respect and dignity, and I'm starting to get some. It's wonderful.
RWArchangel Avacyn, GWNazahn, Revered Bladesmith, RKari Zev, Skyship Raider (French Duel)
This made me laugh because of how true it is.
@Gabrielle, I don't think Maelstrom Wanderer sends the wrong idea. It's hardly a spike deck, and it seems like it'd be right up your alley. Big splashy commander with free stuff attached for every cast, it's a good time even if you don't win - it's money for nothing, chicks for free (to quote the great Mark Knopfler). I'd give it a go. The good thing is if you can cast MW again after land destruction you get instant board presence with haste.
RWArchangel Avacyn, GWNazahn, Revered Bladesmith, RKari Zev, Skyship Raider (French Duel)