I know we have confirmation from a reliable source that they won't be in it. But should they be?
Is MaRo right in that four-color is too difficult to design for?
Or is he being obstinate since plenty of cards already exist that have more colors than they strictly need?
Are four-color commanders a bad idea for other reasons?
Could a new set of nephili work by having really weird and unusual abilities that don't neatly fit into any specific color combination just like (most) of the old ones did (at the time)?
Have partners definitively solved the dilemma, and should we just be happy with those?
Or should any new four-color commanders not necessarily have the nephilim type?
... Should I stop asking questions now?
I'll never understand the obsession with these things. They're so ugly. I will admit they look legendary, but they also don't look like they belong on Ravnica, but on Phrexia or some other Dante's Inferno inspired plane. Sure they're 4 color, but they don't seem to warrant the outcry. 4-color in general seems awkward, like it can't decide what it wants to be.
I don't get it either. Even looking at the originals, 4 of them look like they could just be mono-colored cards and they certainly do nothing that warrants being 4 colors. The last one (Glint-Eye Nephilim) seems like it actually fits 2 or 3 of the colors.
In any case, why have 4 color designs that don't care about the colors? Atraxa went fairly basic in its design but still managed to get to a point where you can see how it can be all 4 colors. If you don't care that the abilities fit in all 4 colors, the partners should be good enough. If you do care, then the Nephilim seem like an odd place to want 4 color legendary since they were designed pretty poorly from that perspective to begin with. And I agree they just don't seem to fit on Ravnica.
People are better off asking for something new to be 4 color legendaries rather than continue focusing on the Nephilim as the answer.
I don't get it either. Even looking at the originals, 4 of them look like they could just be mono-colored cards and they certainly do nothing that warrants being 4 colors. The last one (Glint-Eye Nephilim) seems like it actually fits 2 or 3 of the colors.
Of course, looking back from now you're absolutely right. Adding an attack trigger to a reanimate ability doesn't mean Yore-Tiller Nephilim shouldn't have been monoblack.
But it's worth pointing out that we hadn't seen these abilities before at the time. Even Dune-Brood Nephilim was unusual in that the tokens it created were colorless and predicated upon hitting an opponent. From that perspective it only has one more color than its closest ancestor, Hazezon Tamar.
That's fair (and yes, Hazezon was my thought when looking at Dune-Brood too). However, this seems to be part of the problem. Even if we accept that the original cards were not, at that time, squarely in a specific color, it is hard to imagine that their effects at that time could have really been stretched to the 4 colors they ended up being. Each probably would have been fine as a 2 color card.
Basically, I think the idea that getting a design to incorporate all 4 colors is difficult but not impossible. Atraxa is a good example of a design like this. On the other side of the coin, some of what drives a 4 color card is what it is *not*. That is, how do you make a WURG card that is definitely not B. This seems to be the sticking point since, as you add colors and abilities, there is enough crossover to just say "this could be all 5 colors" or "the white could be black in this case". That is what I see as being a bigger issue with 4 color overall.
I am not saying it can't be done of course. I am mostly commenting on the desire to have it done specifically with the Nephilim. If they can find a way to make these things work, and they did somewhat with the Commander decks, why do they have to be Nephilim? I get they were "first" and people latched onto them as "honorary" commanders in some circles, but there is no real reason this can't be done somewhere else with other cards. And I think they can come up with better options than the Nephilim for this.
If it fits the lore, sure. From what I've read of the first block they really didn't feature much in the story there at any rate. As confusing and involved as that story was.
As far as 4 colour generals, I don't see why we couldn't have more, but if that has to be the Nephilim it probably won't happen.
I would like to see more of the Nephilim from a lore perspective. I like the idea of primordial beings that aren't Eldrazi. I think they'd be struggling to comfortably fit it into the lore though, and that does seem to be a big part of who/what we see printed these days.
They were definitely a big part of book 3, implied to be remnants of the wierd wilds of Ravnica, something deeper to the plane underneath the fairly orderly city, and were a major feature of the giant monster battle at the end.
They are cool because they are wierd. I'd like to see new ones.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I'll never understand the obsession with these things. They're so ugly. I will admit they look legendary, but they also don't look like they belong on Ravnica, but on Phrexia or some other Dante's Inferno inspired plane. Sure they're 4 color, but they don't seem to warrant the outcry. 4-color in general seems awkward, like it can't decide what it wants to be.
First four-color creatures, and that's about it. Though, I think of them less as "ugly" and more as "Evangelionesque", especially with the name.
Wouldn't Rei and Kaoru be nephilim, though?
Though, yeah...My biggest concern is, they don't make sense in the color pie:
Yore-Tiller Nephilim: Yes, the hyperdimensional one first, just because WUBR comes first. This ability could just be monoblack, or even white, black, and red, with the red representing the "when CARDNAME attacks" and "tapped and attacking" aspect of it. Blue makes no sense. Even using the blue guilds as a guide, this doesn't fit into any blue guild: Too aggressive for Azorius, not focusing on the library enough (as in, at all) for Dimir, and creatures in Izzet? What we have is a Boros+black card at the end of the day; since it has to be four colors, I'd be happier if it were not blue. Glint-Eye Nephilim: Why black? I could see one ability being blue or green, and the other being red; I could even see it being UR, just because it's a fancy loot. (Hell, monored.) But why black? The nearest I can tell, this is a reference to Izzet's supreme card-drawing ability and Golgari's love of the graveyard. So it makes more sense than most of these. But it still doesn't make much sense. Dune-Brood Nephilim: I can make a case that the ability is white (one 1/1 token), green (for each land you control), and red (when CARDNAME deals combat damage to a player, but that could really also be white), but why black? Guildwise, this could be Selesnya, Boros, or Gruul, but doesn't fit Orzhov (no lifegain or death triggers), Golgari (nothing graveyard-related), or Rakdos (I mean, I guess because it's aggressive? Not masochistic enough, though.) Ink-Treader Nephilim: This should be Izzet, or could even be either blue or red. "Instant or sorcery" isn't really that much of a GW thing; in fact, one of my big concerns with the current round of Magi was finding white and green spells. Witch-Maw Nephilim: Oh my...Suggestive appearance (and flavor text, and even rules text) aside, this could literally be monogreen. It's just sorta Forgotten Ancient (It only triggers when you cast a spell, but the counters are doubled.) that gains trample when it gets big enough. Even guildwise it feels wrong; it feels like it would be Izzet/Simic/Gruul, but no red. It doesn't feel Golgari, doesn't feel Orzhov, doesn't feel Dimir, doesn't feel Selesnya, and doesn't feel Azorius. Like, at all.
It was a cool idea, but poorly executed.
It can be executed properly.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
My biggest concern is, they don't make sense in the color pie: ...Even using the blue guilds as a guide, this doesn't fit into any blue guild: ...Guildwise, this could be Selesnya, Boros, or Gruul, but doesn't fit Orzhov (no lifegain or death triggers), Golgari (nothing graveyard-related), or Rakdos (I mean, I guess because it's aggressive? Not masochistic enough, though.) ...Even guildwise it feels wrong; it feels like it would be Izzet/Simic/Gruul, but no red. It doesn't feel Golgari, doesn't feel Orzhov, doesn't feel Dimir, doesn't feel Selesnya, and doesn't feel Azorius. Like, at all.
Why, why, why would you ever think "guildwise" for creatures that are not part of a guild? The color pie and the guild identities are two separate (though related) concepts. The guild itentities must fit within their section of the color pie, but they are not the be-all, end-all representatives of their respective slices. Case in point - The Scarab God fits the UB section of the color pie but would feel completely out of place in the Dimir Guild, while The Locust God fits the UR section of the color pie but would be out of place in the Izzet Guild. Yes, these examples are from a different world, but the Nephilim may as well be - they are not Guild members and don't really fit in the world of the Ravnica city; they are remnants of a different Ravnica, practically a different world than that of the guilds. So, evaluate based on the color pie, but any comparison to the guild identities is misguided.
Yore-Tiller Nephilim: ...This ability could just be monoblack, or even white, black, and red, with the red representing the "when CARDNAME attacks" and "tapped and attacking" aspect of it. Blue makes no sense. ... What we have is a Boros+black card at the end of the day; since it has to be four colors, I'd be happier if it were not blue.
Agreed. Green would have made more sense than blue, as it at least has a history of returning creatures from the graveyard.
Glint-Eye Nephilim: Why black? I could see one ability being blue or green, and the other being red; I could even see it being UR, just because it's a fancy loot. (Hell, monored.) But why black? ... So it makes more sense than most of these. But it still doesn't make much sense.
Black has 26 Shades, 25 of which are monoblack, and 23 of which pump themselves by +1/+1 for each activation. One of them even requires something additional (sacrificing a Swamp), so self-discard is not entirely out of black's color pie. This one actually works for me. If anything, I'd drop the green.
Dune-Brood Nephilim: I can make a case that the ability is white (one 1/1 token), green (for each land you control), and red (when CARDNAME deals combat damage to a player, but that could really also be white), but why black?
Witch-Maw Nephilim: Oh my...Suggestive appearance (and flavor text, and even rules text) aside, this could literally be monogreen. It's just sorta Forgotten Ancient (It only triggers when you cast a spell, but the counters are doubled.) that gains trample when it gets big enough.
Yore-Tiller really didn't make sense with blue, but neither would it as mono black. Attacking to reanimate has since been done in everything from mono black to Mardu. Yore Tiller is much like Alesha, as it doesn't just reanimate on an attack trigger, but puts the reanimated creature into play tapped and attacking. This is a pretty big difference, as it gives it a sort of haste (R primary, though black is a distant secondary) and forces it directly into combat (R/W both do this). Its a completely combat oriented style of reanimation, which also makes it much more difficult to use to get back creatures with activated abilities, as they're forced into combat they will likely die in most of the time, again pushing the R/W inclusion. Its also a particularly powerful instance of the effect, costing no mana, being unrestricted in what it can target, and not exiling at the end of the turn like mono black usually does.
Blue is completely out of place here though, both because the abilities aren't blue, but also because the attack focus precludes the trickiness of blue. Blue would be interesting in getting creatures like Arcanus back, and not to send them attacking to their doom. Of course, the entire Grixis shard had blue showing up to pull this with the unearth ability, usually on cards that weren't very blue at all. Sedris is only blue because he's a Grixis legend, nothing about his mechanics or flavor are blue beyond being from Grixis.
The only thing Yore Tiller needed to make it blue, and thus good for all 4 colors, is to be unblockable. It wouldn't be too powerful, and would be a clear blue addition. As it is, Yore Tiller is a weak card unless you can make it hard to block, it's going to reanimate one guy before getting killed by a bear.
Glint Eye: I actually think this one is on point for its colors. Red and Black both discard for value, blue draws cards on combat damage to players, green red and black all get pump abilities, and green cares about power. Black is probably the most well represented, as its activated ability is a shade ability that utilizes discard. Red was probably the least represented at the time, but it functions like a slow, somewhat unreliable version of red looting so today red fits.
Dune Brood: Naya right off the bat because its inspired by Hazezon, and honestly spitting out tokens via combat damage is very Naya, as is being tied to lands. Black doesn't add anything, but black loves sacrificing tokens. Really, this should have had something else, like the ability to sacrifice to tokens to prevent damage to Dune Brood (1 point for each token) or some other sac effect to add black to it.
Ink-Treader: Today this could be izzet or mono red, but back then this was a unique ability with no home, and there is a distinct communitarian flavor to the ability, as it shares whatever effects it with every other creature. If you target it with giant growth, it gives all creatures +3/+3. That's very G/W. of course, it also shares negative effects as well, but typically its getting targeted with beneficial effects (or Rite of Replication, or Threaten) if its owner is casting the spell. Its still different that Zada or Mirror Wing Dragon in one important respect, as this shares the spell with every creature, and Zada only shares the spell with your own creatures, and Mirror Wing only shares the spell with caster's creatures.
Witch Maw: Could be mono green, but the deck it wants you to build actually favors its colors, though you could argue for R over W. You really want to drop this guy then go to town storming off. He really should be Glint Eye's colors.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Black has 26 Shades, 25 of which are monoblack, and 23 of which pump themselves by +1/+1 for each activation.
It's more a puppy than a shade, though. Black also gets husks. (This isn't to say black hasn't gotten puppies before, including one kinda bad one in SOI, but for the most part, +N/+N in black requires paying black mana or swamps to represent black mana being addictive, or paying life or sacrificing creatures to represent black doing whatever it takes to get the job done, even committing mortal sins.)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Maybe in a Commander set or another Battlebond but like someone else pointed out, there's a ton already going to be packed into this block so why shoehorn the Nephilim into it as well?
Is MaRo right in that four-color is too difficult to design for?
Or is he being obstinate since plenty of cards already exist that have more colors than they strictly need?
Are four-color commanders a bad idea for other reasons?
Could a new set of nephili work by having really weird and unusual abilities that don't neatly fit into any specific color combination just like (most) of the old ones did (at the time)?
Have partners definitively solved the dilemma, and should we just be happy with those?
Or should any new four-color commanders not necessarily have the nephilim type?
... Should I stop asking questions now?
- Rabid Wombat
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
In any case, why have 4 color designs that don't care about the colors? Atraxa went fairly basic in its design but still managed to get to a point where you can see how it can be all 4 colors. If you don't care that the abilities fit in all 4 colors, the partners should be good enough. If you do care, then the Nephilim seem like an odd place to want 4 color legendary since they were designed pretty poorly from that perspective to begin with. And I agree they just don't seem to fit on Ravnica.
People are better off asking for something new to be 4 color legendaries rather than continue focusing on the Nephilim as the answer.
Of course, looking back from now you're absolutely right. Adding an attack trigger to a reanimate ability doesn't mean Yore-Tiller Nephilim shouldn't have been monoblack.
But it's worth pointing out that we hadn't seen these abilities before at the time. Even Dune-Brood Nephilim was unusual in that the tokens it created were colorless and predicated upon hitting an opponent. From that perspective it only has one more color than its closest ancestor, Hazezon Tamar.
This is particularly true of Ink-Treader Nephilim, whose effect had only one precedent.
Is it not possible for new nephili to have abilities that don't currently fit squarely within any one or two colors of the color pie?
- Rabid Wombat
Basically, I think the idea that getting a design to incorporate all 4 colors is difficult but not impossible. Atraxa is a good example of a design like this. On the other side of the coin, some of what drives a 4 color card is what it is *not*. That is, how do you make a WURG card that is definitely not B. This seems to be the sticking point since, as you add colors and abilities, there is enough crossover to just say "this could be all 5 colors" or "the white could be black in this case". That is what I see as being a bigger issue with 4 color overall.
I am not saying it can't be done of course. I am mostly commenting on the desire to have it done specifically with the Nephilim. If they can find a way to make these things work, and they did somewhat with the Commander decks, why do they have to be Nephilim? I get they were "first" and people latched onto them as "honorary" commanders in some circles, but there is no real reason this can't be done somewhere else with other cards. And I think they can come up with better options than the Nephilim for this.
As far as 4 colour generals, I don't see why we couldn't have more, but if that has to be the Nephilim it probably won't happen.
I would like to see more of the Nephilim from a lore perspective. I like the idea of primordial beings that aren't Eldrazi. I think they'd be struggling to comfortably fit it into the lore though, and that does seem to be a big part of who/what we see printed these days.
They are cool because they are wierd. I'd like to see new ones.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
First four-color creatures, and that's about it. Though, I think of them less as "ugly" and more as "Evangelionesque", especially with the name.
Though, yeah...My biggest concern is, they don't make sense in the color pie:
Yore-Tiller Nephilim: Yes, the hyperdimensional one first, just because WUBR comes first. This ability could just be monoblack, or even white, black, and red, with the red representing the "when CARDNAME attacks" and "tapped and attacking" aspect of it. Blue makes no sense. Even using the blue guilds as a guide, this doesn't fit into any blue guild: Too aggressive for Azorius, not focusing on the library enough (as in, at all) for Dimir, and creatures in Izzet? What we have is a Boros+black card at the end of the day; since it has to be four colors, I'd be happier if it were not blue.
Glint-Eye Nephilim: Why black? I could see one ability being blue or green, and the other being red; I could even see it being UR, just because it's a fancy loot. (Hell, monored.) But why black? The nearest I can tell, this is a reference to Izzet's supreme card-drawing ability and Golgari's love of the graveyard. So it makes more sense than most of these. But it still doesn't make much sense.
Dune-Brood Nephilim: I can make a case that the ability is white (one 1/1 token), green (for each land you control), and red (when CARDNAME deals combat damage to a player, but that could really also be white), but why black? Guildwise, this could be Selesnya, Boros, or Gruul, but doesn't fit Orzhov (no lifegain or death triggers), Golgari (nothing graveyard-related), or Rakdos (I mean, I guess because it's aggressive? Not masochistic enough, though.)
Ink-Treader Nephilim: This should be Izzet, or could even be either blue or red. "Instant or sorcery" isn't really that much of a GW thing; in fact, one of my big concerns with the current round of Magi was finding white and green spells.
Witch-Maw Nephilim: Oh my...Suggestive appearance (and flavor text, and even rules text) aside, this could literally be monogreen. It's just sorta Forgotten Ancient (It only triggers when you cast a spell, but the counters are doubled.) that gains trample when it gets big enough. Even guildwise it feels wrong; it feels like it would be Izzet/Simic/Gruul, but no red. It doesn't feel Golgari, doesn't feel Orzhov, doesn't feel Dimir, doesn't feel Selesnya, and doesn't feel Azorius. Like, at all.
It was a cool idea, but poorly executed.
It can be executed properly.
On phasing:
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
Because I have more decks than fit in a signature
Useful Resources:
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Blue is completely out of place here though, both because the abilities aren't blue, but also because the attack focus precludes the trickiness of blue. Blue would be interesting in getting creatures like Arcanus back, and not to send them attacking to their doom. Of course, the entire Grixis shard had blue showing up to pull this with the unearth ability, usually on cards that weren't very blue at all. Sedris is only blue because he's a Grixis legend, nothing about his mechanics or flavor are blue beyond being from Grixis.
The only thing Yore Tiller needed to make it blue, and thus good for all 4 colors, is to be unblockable. It wouldn't be too powerful, and would be a clear blue addition. As it is, Yore Tiller is a weak card unless you can make it hard to block, it's going to reanimate one guy before getting killed by a bear.
Glint Eye: I actually think this one is on point for its colors. Red and Black both discard for value, blue draws cards on combat damage to players, green red and black all get pump abilities, and green cares about power. Black is probably the most well represented, as its activated ability is a shade ability that utilizes discard. Red was probably the least represented at the time, but it functions like a slow, somewhat unreliable version of red looting so today red fits.
Dune Brood: Naya right off the bat because its inspired by Hazezon, and honestly spitting out tokens via combat damage is very Naya, as is being tied to lands. Black doesn't add anything, but black loves sacrificing tokens. Really, this should have had something else, like the ability to sacrifice to tokens to prevent damage to Dune Brood (1 point for each token) or some other sac effect to add black to it.
Ink-Treader: Today this could be izzet or mono red, but back then this was a unique ability with no home, and there is a distinct communitarian flavor to the ability, as it shares whatever effects it with every other creature. If you target it with giant growth, it gives all creatures +3/+3. That's very G/W. of course, it also shares negative effects as well, but typically its getting targeted with beneficial effects (or Rite of Replication, or Threaten) if its owner is casting the spell. Its still different that Zada or Mirror Wing Dragon in one important respect, as this shares the spell with every creature, and Zada only shares the spell with your own creatures, and Mirror Wing only shares the spell with caster's creatures.
Witch Maw: Could be mono green, but the deck it wants you to build actually favors its colors, though you could argue for R over W. You really want to drop this guy then go to town storming off. He really should be Glint Eye's colors.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
It's more a puppy than a shade, though. Black also gets husks. (This isn't to say black hasn't gotten puppies before, including one kinda bad one in SOI, but for the most part, +N/+N in black requires paying black mana or swamps to represent black mana being addictive, or paying life or sacrificing creatures to represent black doing whatever it takes to get the job done, even committing mortal sins.)
On phasing:
- Rabid Wombat
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
I'm really excited to see them again. They have great art direction.
- Rabid Wombat
Building: Varina