How come you didn't include grindstone, it might be more of a meta call grindstone that is, also why not patriarch's bidding?
Not that Grindstone is a bad card it's just that I figured with Persistent Petitioners doing most of the milling for us that we need a way to capitalize on that by exiling our opponents' graveyards with Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus, Sentinel Totem, and Bojuka Bog. Secret Salvage could easily be taken out for Patriarch's Bidding though I didn't want to run the risk of helping our opponents If they're running Tribal themes that might backfire on us with Slivers being the one to watch out for obviously.
Ohh this is turning into a very interesting deck and I am sold for Sultai as well. I hope we can keep this one budget conscious
What about Fatestitcher and Intruder Alarm ? Didn't make the final cut?
Also, did anyone consider Mana Severance to think the deck prior to mass milling?
Forgot about Fatestitcher though I had a hard time deciding whether to go with either Intruder Alarm or Faces of the Past. Both still work well with Bloodbond March though I guess it really all boils down to personal preference. While I like Mana Severance for thinning out our deck it might be too much of a risk for this sort of build.
You most likely do not want an even distribution of Basic Lands, you want Islands over everything at least that is what was true when I was playing Shadowborn Apostles in 3 and 4 color decks you need to be hitting the color of the most common thing in the deck by far. Also 27 basics makes Hermit Druid feel like a strange choice
I think me personally would go Bant over Sultai you also still can keep the reanimation in Remembrance and Angel of Glory's Rise
Maybe 4 Swamp, 4 Forest, and 19 Island would suffice so that Hermit Druid can help us get the other lands we need? I might try to brew a Bant variant for Persistent Petitioners later on to add in Remembrance and Angel of Glory's Rise. As for the Bant Commander to run that's still up for debate.
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America Bless Christ Jesus
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
The thing I think you are missing most is Dredge. Life from the Loam, Golgari Grave-Troll, Stinkweed Imp... I would play Eternal Witness too, so you can easily recur instants and sorceries every turn if needed.
Still think Petitioners + 3 other advisors + Bloodchief Ascension could be a good way to knock players out of the game. That's draining 24 every turn.
Beyond that, Seedborn Muse lets you reuse you activate Petitioners every turn. In fact, there are a lot of blue and green untappers you might consider.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
When I see the clause on Persistent Petitioners, I don't think of mill. Just like how I didn't really think of demons when I built my Shadowborn Apostle (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1345419#paper)
Thrumming Stone is the in-deck general. And I'm trying to get Earthcraft, Crop Rotation -> Gaea's Cradle, and/or Nykthos.
One hurdle was that the apostles cannot get there by themselves. It always had to be immediately followed up with a mana-engine+X-spell, or Gray Merchant, or (cross-fingers) Beastmaster's Ascension. So it had to be built as a combo deck.
Now, if I want to build a Thrumming Stone deck. I can go a control-route, my preferred playing style.
Well, I haven't done an apostle deck but I have done a relentless rats deck,which runs 20 rats, which reminds me we'd want patriarch's biddingas a mass recursion
I was curious about the numbers of petitioners we should run in our decks. Is ~30 really enough? i was edging on something like 40-50, just to really increase the density and probability of landing 1-2 petitioners per cast (basically churning out all of them in one fell swoop), then in between each cast trigger, mill players, trigger intruder alarm, bloodchief ascension, altar of the brood, whatever.
The more i think about it, the less 'fun' this deck feels. it sorta gives the "yay. done it. now what?" sorta vibe, especially since it's a pretty straightforward combo. Even my mono white combo build, that generally uses 3-6 pieces to combo off and has extremely limited tutoring abilities, started to feel very samey (though in-game, makes me really have to think about how i'd cobble the combo together).
Has anyone actually built and run the deck a couple of times yet? how did it feel?
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
I was curious about the numbers of petitioners we should run in our decks. Is ~30 really enough? i was edging on something like 40-50, just to really increase the density and probability of landing 1-2 petitioners per cast (basically churning out all of them in one fell swoop), then in between each cast trigger, mill players, trigger intruder alarm, bloodchief ascension, altar of the brood, whatever.
The more i think about it, the less 'fun' this deck feels. it sorta gives the "yay. done it. now what?" sorta vibe, especially since it's a pretty straightforward combo. Even my mono white combo build, that generally uses 3-6 pieces to combo off and has extremely limited tutoring abilities, started to feel very samey (though in-game, makes me really have to think about how i'd cobble the combo together).
Has anyone actually built and run the deck a couple of times yet? how did it feel?
The number you play should probably be based on Thrumming Stone math.
If you play 40???, and you include ~35 lands, how much room does it actually leave for you to build the rest of your deck?
I do not have a Thrumming Stone yet but I run Grand Arbiter Augustin IV as my commander with just 28 petitioners along with a few other advisors and mill out players so fast. I even milled 4 players out on turn 5 the other day. I know most people are running black but I also focused on a deck that was viable in group play and even without the stone or running black it is very fast and can sustain slower draws if needed with other options built in.
I was curious about the numbers of petitioners we should run in our decks. Is ~30 really enough? i was edging on something like 40-50, just to really increase the density and probability of landing 1-2 petitioners per cast (basically churning out all of them in one fell swoop), then in between each cast trigger, mill players, trigger intruder alarm, bloodchief ascension, altar of the brood, whatever.
The more i think about it, the less 'fun' this deck feels. it sorta gives the "yay. done it. now what?" sorta vibe, especially since it's a pretty straightforward combo. Even my mono white combo build, that generally uses 3-6 pieces to combo off and has extremely limited tutoring abilities, started to feel very samey (though in-game, makes me really have to think about how i'd cobble the combo together).
Has anyone actually built and run the deck a couple of times yet? how did it feel?
The number you play should probably be based on Thrumming Stone math.
If you play 40???, and you include ~35 lands, how much room does it actually leave for you to build the rest of your deck?
are the 25 slots too limiting? It's probably enough, innit?
If we run 30, that's about 90% chance we have at least 1 in the starting hand
if we run 40, that's a 97% chance we start with at least 1 in hand.
@30, it's a 75% chance that we're gonna hit one or more per every 4 top decks (for the sake of thrumming stone and wood sage)
@40, it's a 87% chance we're gonna hit one or more per every 4 top deck.
I suppose it depends on how willing we're going to whiff. I'm in on the idea that we're gonna be able to churn through almost the entire deck and pile them all into play in 1 go, and just mill the table to death. At 40, and we're gonna say that we need to trigger thrumming stone 20 times (say we're down to 80 cards in-deck after some minor ramping and drawing) to go through the deck once, it comes down to 5% chance to go all the way.
My numbers might not be right, and i did round to the nearest whole number most of the time (if anyone wants to check, i'd suggest you calculate the probability of whatever it is that you want to NOT happen, and then one minus that result - it's easier than actually calculating the probability of something actually happening), so it's a tad rough.
I see mention of running black here and understand it would work but if I run black I would definitely use Leyline of the Void but see no mention of it here. Especially when dealing with decks that run cards like Eldrazi in it. I run one in both my UB mill and UB stax decks.
I see mention of running black here and understand it would work but if I run black I would definitely use Leyline of the Void but see no mention of it here. Especially when dealing with decks that run cards like Eldrazi in it. I run one in both my UB mill and UB stax decks.
looks good... though i suspect that running leyline of the void will mean that the entire table will instantly turn against you. playing mill is hard enough as it is, since most players over-value what being milled actually means in-game (my experience says that even a single bit of mill against many players causes them to react as if i attacked for 20). and then rubbing it in further by exiling cards will probably make those players even more livid. But you know, your milage may vary; your playgroup might actually have logical players/players who're able to properly assess board-state/threats.
The commander was more or less a decoy for removal, but as expected, the pale guy still did his thing fairly well.
Aside from many of the above synergies it utilizied Pack Hunt, Secret Salvage and Doubling Chant.
The deck also packed Aluren (still amazed by the flavor text) - which terribly backfired for its player once, yet is disgustingly good if used right.
So i've built a persistent petitioners list, but it's VERY lethargic. Does anyone have any advice as to how to make it work better? I've already dropped down to 35 petitioners, but does anyone have an idea as to how many sifting/tutoring effects is a good number to find sphinx of the chimes/bloodbond march/thrumming stone?
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
I would also include Turnabout.
The thing I think you are missing most is Dredge. Life from the Loam, Golgari Grave-Troll, Stinkweed Imp... I would play Eternal Witness too, so you can easily recur instants and sorceries every turn if needed.
You also need more tutors for Thrumming Stone. Fabricate, Sidisi, Undead Vizier...
Cards like Entomb and Demonic Tutor would be awesome, but not sure if you are capping your power here.
If you were to play white, you could get Rally the Ancestors which is probably the direction I would have taken it.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Beyond that, Seedborn Muse lets you reuse you activate Petitioners every turn. In fact, there are a lot of blue and green untappers you might consider.
On phasing:
1 Roon of the Hidden Realm
Creatures (40)
28 Persistent Petitioners
1 Sunscape Familiar
1 Hermit Druid
1 Kami of the Crescent Moon
1 Eldrazi Displacer
1 Seedborn Muse
1 Murkfiend Liege
1 Restoration Angel
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Tradewind Rider
1 Soul of the Harvest
1 Deadeye Navigator
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
Instants (5)
1 Ghostly Flicker
1 Vitalize
1 Sylvan Reclamation
1 Krosan Grip
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Clarion Ultimatum
1 Creeping Renaissance
1 Windfall
1 Morningtide
1 Supreme Verdict
Artifacts (10)
1 Sentinel Totem
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Conjurer's Closet
1 Sol Ring
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Phyrexian Altar
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Mind's Eye
1 Thrumming Stone
Enchantments (5)
1 Glare of Subdual
1 Remembrance
1 Intruder Alarm
1 Faces of the Past
1 Quest for Renewal
4 Forest
4 Plains
19 Island
1 Command Tower
1 Seaside Citadel
1 Krosan Verge
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Alchemist's Refuge
1 Homeward Path
1 Reliquary Tower
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Thrumming Stone is the in-deck general. And I'm trying to get Earthcraft, Crop Rotation -> Gaea's Cradle, and/or Nykthos.
One hurdle was that the apostles cannot get there by themselves. It always had to be immediately followed up with a mana-engine+X-spell, or Gray Merchant, or (cross-fingers) Beastmaster's Ascension. So it had to be built as a combo deck.
Now, if I want to build a Thrumming Stone deck. I can go a control-route, my preferred playing style.
I am running a blue/white and with Undead Alchemist add Arcane Adaptation and now those zombie tokens are advisors as well.
The more i think about it, the less 'fun' this deck feels. it sorta gives the "yay. done it. now what?" sorta vibe, especially since it's a pretty straightforward combo. Even my mono white combo build, that generally uses 3-6 pieces to combo off and has extremely limited tutoring abilities, started to feel very samey (though in-game, makes me really have to think about how i'd cobble the combo together).
Has anyone actually built and run the deck a couple of times yet? how did it feel?
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
The number you play should probably be based on Thrumming Stone math.
If you play 40???, and you include ~35 lands, how much room does it actually leave for you to build the rest of your deck?
are the 25 slots too limiting? It's probably enough, innit?
If we run 30, that's about 90% chance we have at least 1 in the starting hand
if we run 40, that's a 97% chance we start with at least 1 in hand.
@30, it's a 75% chance that we're gonna hit one or more per every 4 top decks (for the sake of thrumming stone and wood sage)
@40, it's a 87% chance we're gonna hit one or more per every 4 top deck.
I suppose it depends on how willing we're going to whiff. I'm in on the idea that we're gonna be able to churn through almost the entire deck and pile them all into play in 1 go, and just mill the table to death. At 40, and we're gonna say that we need to trigger thrumming stone 20 times (say we're down to 80 cards in-deck after some minor ramping and drawing) to go through the deck once, it comes down to 5% chance to go all the way.
My numbers might not be right, and i did round to the nearest whole number most of the time (if anyone wants to check, i'd suggest you calculate the probability of whatever it is that you want to NOT happen, and then one minus that result - it's easier than actually calculating the probability of something actually happening), so it's a tad rough.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
looks good... though i suspect that running leyline of the void will mean that the entire table will instantly turn against you. playing mill is hard enough as it is, since most players over-value what being milled actually means in-game (my experience says that even a single bit of mill against many players causes them to react as if i attacked for 20). and then rubbing it in further by exiling cards will probably make those players even more livid. But you know, your milage may vary; your playgroup might actually have logical players/players who're able to properly assess board-state/threats.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
The commander was more or less a decoy for removal, but as expected, the pale guy still did his thing fairly well.
Aside from many of the above synergies it utilizied Pack Hunt, Secret Salvage and Doubling Chant.
The deck also packed Aluren (still amazed by the flavor text) - which terribly backfired for its player once, yet is disgustingly good if used right.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom