Looking for some ideas of win conditions for a creatureless mono-green commander deck (token generators are fine but the win has to not be through combat damage). I have Helix pinnacle. Is there anything I can do with Life and Limb? The best I've come up with is epic struggle, but that's pretty bad. Squirrels Nest+earthcraft is and option, but I'll need a third piece to turn it into a win. Any other ideas?
Altar of the Brood would give you a milling tool to win with. Token generators are then just means for defense and to trigger that artifact more often. And for milling you can then also employ various artifacts ala Millstone.
Staff of Nin gives you a pinger and some card draw.
You could also augment some of this into a Paradox Engine plan potentially too if you wanted but its a bit harder to keep the draw up in green without creatures. I suppose you could use Sprout Swarm or something like it to go infinite.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
A stax build might work - green hates out artifacts really good so enchantment based ramp and hate stuff, mycosynth latice and hum of the radix is a good stall if you have activated abilities on board that accrues advantage (or infinite mana somehow). Pair a variety of orbs, root mze, and freyalise's winds with seedborn muse and wilderness reclmtion to bog everyone else down. In the mean time pump out protection with raking canopy and token producers.
Win with any number of ways already listed - I specically like altar of the brood and throne of the god-pharroh because they are passive and let you win by doing remarkably little investment on your side.
Fair warning that tokens will make combat damage a tempting way to win - it really is one of the most edficient ways after you wrath or something.
I think* that squall line (or the like) for 100000 plus Platinum angel because the first time all the state based effects are checked (simultaneously) the angel is still in play so everyone with 0 or less life loses and angel (preventing your loss) dies. Then when state based effects sre checked again you would lose since you no longer control the angel, but you've already won. (See rule 704.3)
*If a judge could clarify this, I will edit accordingly.
I think* that squall line (or the like) for 100000 plus Platinum angel because the first time all the state based effects are checked (simultaneously) the angel is still in play so everyone with 0 or less life loses and angel (preventing your loss) dies. Then when state based effects sre checked again you would lose since you no longer control the angel, but you've already won. (See rule 704.3)
*If a judge could clarify this, I will edit accordingly.
Linking to a super old rules thread but it addresses this. The state based check to see if the angel is dead also checks to see if other players are dead and so it would essentially resolve their deaths at the same time as the angel's death (I think). I believe you would be killed by state based after your opponents though.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
You should check out aslidsiksoraksi's Nissa deck. It's a mono-green enchantress control shell with a couple non-combat finishes.
The biggest problem with non-combat wins in mono green is that they almost all involve an artifact, an enchantment, a sorcery/instant, or all of the above. Green has a hard time tutoring those out, making it rely instead on obscene card draw. I don't know of a purely creature and/or land-based alternate win in mono-green.
I think* that squall line (or the like) for 100000 plus Platinum angel because the first time all the state based effects are checked (simultaneously) the angel is still in play so everyone with 0 or less life loses and angel (preventing your loss) dies. Then when state based effects sre checked again you would lose since you no longer control the angel, but you've already won. (See rule 704.3)
*If a judge could clarify this, I will edit accordingly.
Linking to a super old rules thread but it addresses this. The state based check to see if the angel is dead also checks to see if other players are dead and so it would essentially resolve their deaths at the same time as the angel's death (I think). I believe you would be killed by state based after your opponents though.
Yes, but you've already won the game at that point, so it's still a W. However, if even one survives (say, by playing a Reverse Damage or Angel's Grace), that player wins.
The pact cycle works the same way, as does Final Fortune, but your death (or self-erasure from the timeline) is a delayed trigger instead of a SBA.
An aside: Hurricane is everything I hate about flying hate because it can be used for creatureless wins. And even if you have creatures, like mana dorks or something, I would prefer for elfball to either use a hydra (and yes, Endless One and Hangarback Walker count as hydras for the purposes of this rant) or splash white for tokens, black or red for direct damage, or blue for mill.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Why would you use Wave of Vitriol in a creatureless deck? 😵
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I really can't add much to the win condition plan that hasn't already been discussed, but I do play a nearly creatureless mono green list that wins through infinite turns and obscene mana generation (I don't run a single mana rock or doubler in the deck). You definitely want a lot of those cards that have been listed, wave of vitriol being arguably the best. If you're going to run spellslinger, I highly recommend lots of regrowth effects which green has many of. I believe I run something like 8 of them.
Cards worth considering to stop aggro in their tracks:
The latter can be tricky. On the other hand, you don't plan on winning via the combat step, so playing at instant speed shouldn't be a problem.
If you don't have a problem with token generation, you could consider centaur glade. This plus elemental bond is an interesting and obscure little engine that I like. Not a great one, but it doesn't depend on creature cards as you requested and makes lots of blockers. Synergizes with epic struggle if you get that far.
Of course sylvan library is a must have if you can, but a lesser known card that is flat broken with just about any other draw effect is abundance.
If you can generate the power of the creature through your commander, you might consider shaman of forgotten ways. It's a creature, but the formidable ability is aptly named.
Why would you use Wave of Vitriol in a creatureless deck?
To remove all enchantments, artifacts and non-basic lands.
That's not my point. A big reason for playing boardwipes (or symmetrical effects in general) is to hurt opponents more. If you don't have any creatures, see where I'm going?
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Really just reiterating the above, but Squall Line et al and Glacial Chasm is such an easy win con you owe it to yourself to run it. Crop Rotation to help you find the chasm cheaply at instant speed.
Can also confirm, Wave of Vitriol is a strong add. Green is strong enough in fog and combat control that board wipes you probably don’t need to worry about too much. Wave is devastating though. Ask the 5c guy who runs next to no basics how good it is and then we can talk.
That being said, depends how you’re building. My mono green runs a fair suite of creatures to add board presence. I can’t see it having a place in an enchantress build such as aslidsiksoraksi’s Nissa build, as you're wanting to break its symmetry ideally.
Altar of the Brood would give you a milling tool to win with. Token generators are then just means for defense and to trigger that artifact more often. And for milling you can then also employ various artifacts ala Millstone.
Staff of Nin gives you a pinger and some card draw.
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You could also augment some of this into a Paradox Engine plan potentially too if you wanted but its a bit harder to keep the draw up in green without creatures. I suppose you could use Sprout Swarm or something like it to go infinite.
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Win with any number of ways already listed - I specically like altar of the brood and throne of the god-pharroh because they are passive and let you win by doing remarkably little investment on your side.
Fair warning that tokens will make combat damage a tempting way to win - it really is one of the most edficient ways after you wrath or something.
I think* that squall line (or the like) for 100000 plus Platinum angel because the first time all the state based effects are checked (simultaneously) the angel is still in play so everyone with 0 or less life loses and angel (preventing your loss) dies. Then when state based effects sre checked again you would lose since you no longer control the angel, but you've already won. (See rule 704.3)
*If a judge could clarify this, I will edit accordingly.
Linking to a super old rules thread but it addresses this. The state based check to see if the angel is dead also checks to see if other players are dead and so it would essentially resolve their deaths at the same time as the angel's death (I think). I believe you would be killed by state based after your opponents though.
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The biggest problem with non-combat wins in mono green is that they almost all involve an artifact, an enchantment, a sorcery/instant, or all of the above. Green has a hard time tutoring those out, making it rely instead on obscene card draw. I don't know of a purely creature and/or land-based alternate win in mono-green.
My Rishkar, Peema Renegade deck's primary win condition is Paradox Engine+Sprout Swarm to use Psychotrope Thallid or Fungal Plots to draw into Throne of the God-Pharaoh. While it's been fun the few times I've actually pulled that off, it's much more reliable as a straight token and +1/+1 beatdown deck.
If you keep your lands to mostly basic Forests, then Primal Order will do some serious damage to your opponents and leave you mostly unscathed.
I'm also a fan of the out-of-the-way and totally not green's part of the color pie anymore Cyclone.
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Yes, but you've already won the game at that point, so it's still a W. However, if even one survives (say, by playing a Reverse Damage or Angel's Grace), that player wins.
The pact cycle works the same way, as does Final Fortune, but your death (or self-erasure from the timeline) is a delayed trigger instead of a SBA.
An aside: Hurricane is everything I hate about flying hate because it can be used for creatureless wins. And even if you have creatures, like mana dorks or something, I would prefer for elfball to either use a hydra (and yes, Endless One and Hangarback Walker count as hydras for the purposes of this rant) or splash white for tokens, black or red for direct damage, or blue for mill.
On phasing:
You can use cards like;
Wave of Vitriol
Natural Balance
Creeping Corrosion
Rampage of the Clans
Seeds of Innocence
Ezuri's Predation
The Great Aurora
Tornado
You can look at planeswalkers for adding to the grindy value;
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Karn Liberated
Vivien Reid
Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury
Garruk Wildspeaker
Garruk, Primal Hunter
Nissa, Vital Force
Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
Nissa, Worldwaker
Run Doubling Season to put these in ultimate range straight away.
Then using Seasons Past and Praetor's Counsel to renew these big powerful cards. Seasons Past allows you to keep this up indefinitely.
Then you want to use some artifacts that also lock out opponents;
Torpor Orb, Cursed Totem, Damping Sphere, Null Rod, Trinisphere.
Because you'd be running a lot of mass artifact removal like Wave of Vitriol, etc, running Creeping Renaissance is good insurance to get these back.
Hmm, I like it when I convince myself of a deck..
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
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On phasing:
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
Cards worth considering to stop aggro in their tracks:
The latter can be tricky. On the other hand, you don't plan on winning via the combat step, so playing at instant speed shouldn't be a problem.
If you don't have a problem with token generation, you could consider centaur glade. This plus elemental bond is an interesting and obscure little engine that I like. Not a great one, but it doesn't depend on creature cards as you requested and makes lots of blockers. Synergizes with epic struggle if you get that far.
Of course sylvan library is a must have if you can, but a lesser known card that is flat broken with just about any other draw effect is abundance.
If you can generate the power of the creature through your commander, you might consider shaman of forgotten ways. It's a creature, but the formidable ability is aptly named.
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That's not my point. A big reason for playing boardwipes (or symmetrical effects in general) is to hurt opponents more. If you don't have any creatures, see where I'm going?
On phasing:
life from the loam+crop rotation+dark depths+thespian's stage gives you turn after turn of 20/20 flying indestructible spaghetti monsters (if they somehow deal one one of them).
strip mine+wasteland+ghost quarter with life from the loam+crucible of worlds can stax your opponents to a concession (or drag the game out till someone natural-mills themselves to death).
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
Can also confirm, Wave of Vitriol is a strong add. Green is strong enough in fog and combat control that board wipes you probably don’t need to worry about too much. Wave is devastating though. Ask the 5c guy who runs next to no basics how good it is and then we can talk.
That being said, depends how you’re building. My mono green runs a fair suite of creatures to add board presence. I can’t see it having a place in an enchantress build such as aslidsiksoraksi’s Nissa build, as you're wanting to break its symmetry ideally.