I used to run this in most(if not all) of my decks. But I started to notice that it wasn't as fun/useful as I thought. Discarding IS powerful...in certain decks. Holding on to a 40+ hand IS powerful...in certain decks. Having utility lands IS powerful...in certain decks.
Those three points have led to me currently only having Reliquary Tower in one deck...and I bet everyone can guess which deck it is.
It's not just because, as others have pointed out, I'm hoarding resources and gimping my board state(which I'm not). Not surprisingly, my hand is also a resource, so yeah...I can regularly get a 20+ hand and turn that around into a pro/re-action. It's amazingly fun and wonderful when that happens. I can often go without Reliquary(instant speed and all), but I don't believe I've ever lost a game because I had this safety net(or it's arty cousin).
I think you're misunderstanding my position. I don't think people who toss it random decks are wrong. I think almost everyone who plays it is wrong and very very few people who play it are actually assessing its quality in their deck correctly over playing an alternative card.
It's almost never excellent, and in very few situations it is pretty good. It will affect your chance of winning much less than playing any of a huge pile of other cards when it is drawn, ranging from spells that can replace lands (expedition map, for example) to better quality utility lands.
I don't believe that it "shines exceptionally" I believe that it sometimes is okay in some archetypes, and people are usually incorrectly assessing how good it is.
I think people are wildly bad at assessing how much it hurts them as well. It absolutely affects your mulligan percentage to a non-zero degree, as well as subsequent mana screw. I would not be at all surprised to see it lose more games than it wins overall (for most decks).
Edit: Hell, find me the most tuned deck with a reliquary tower and I'll give you 10 better things to play. The closest deck I can think of is Dirk's Phelddagrif deck and even in that I could completely take or leave it. I think his mana would be better with a UG canopy land in that slot and also it's just a better card.
You clearly take your rejection of Reliquary Tower as a point of pride, so I'm not going to make any headway here. If you'd like to jump over into Zedruu and try and suggest anything "better" for a deck that's played between 1 and 4 no maximum handsize effects for 8 years and is well acquainted with the impact of cutting one, you're welcome to try but you won't succeed.
You have to understand how foolish you look from my perspective. I've played with the card extensively, I know the floors and ceilings. It doesn't matter how many times you put the card down, I have the hands on experience that you're contradicting, I'm not just going to say "well, I guess that was a fever dream after all." I guess when it comes down to it, if you play a Reliquary Tower and it loses you more games than it wins, that means you built your deck wrong and that might not be the Tower's fault.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
You have to understand how foolish you look from my perspective. I've played with the card extensively, I know the floors and ceilings. It doesn't matter how many times you put the card down, I have the hands on experience that you're contradicting, I'm not just going to say "well, I guess that was a fever dream after all." I guess when it comes down to it, if you play a Reliquary Tower and it loses you more games than it wins, that means you built your deck wrong and that might not be the Tower's fault.
Please, with the foolish talk.
Just cut them all and play better stuff, except for Thought vessel. It's the only one worth playing on account of 2 Cmc rocks are very good magic cards in most decks Although debatable utility with Zedruu's very large color commitments.
What are you trying to do with all those cards, enable Firestorm and Mindmoil?
Your commander is a ridiculous draw engine. You don't need a pile of cards, and you don't really have that many reactive cards (9 instants, and leyline/orrery?). The only real issue I see is when you've got to play with Rest in Peace on the battlefield and losing cards you might need later?
But all of that considered, the fundamental thing is the deck is very weak and plays a bunch of wonky suboptimal bloated wincons that require you to play 4 cards most of which are independently bad (memnite??). I don't mean that as a mean comment, it just is the way you've designed your deck.
Ultimately my verdict is that RQT looks okay in that deck, but just OK. Games where you are drawing 4 cards a turn with Zedruu you will win most of the time whether you have to discard some of them or not, because you got the lock in and you are going to win.
The reason it's OK is because you're playing really suboptimal winconditions to make your deck more friendly. That's fine, but it makes your choice largely aesthetic. You'll almost surely win more games being able to strip mine an opposing land.
All that said here is the list of promised upgrades (in no order) I have for you (any one is likely better, but take your pick)
Edit: sorry for the edits I just keep thinking of more:P
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This one's for free but your manabase is an unmitigated disaster. You're obviously not operating with a lot of budget restrictions here so if you want me to fix it I'll take a stab for ya just let me know what your fetch rules are (e.g. how many fetches you prefer).
If you need a comprehensive list of issues your manabase has:
* not distributed according to color cost even taking into account Zedruu's ability. You have more blue pips than red+white combined and you've got barely 21 blue sources with a very aggressive count of them
* only 30 lands that make colors in a deck with zero filtration and zero draw outside of your commander and a few howling mine effects
* Too many ETB tapped lands (9!!!) that's a crapload.
* Fetches obviously though I think that is intentional
* Forbidden Orchard/Exotic Orchard both much worse than alternatives and the latter unreliable, best used in 5c decks
* Nykthos? Really? In a 3c deck that gives away its permanents and isn't really that heavy on permanents with pips? Is your goal to tap it for +3 mana on turn 73?
(and I play seven basics in 3c FWIW, three basics, three snow basics, and a wastes, optimally).
I'm curious - what's the motivation to play a wastes? Eldrazi colorless-specific costs?
I'm also kind of curious why you'd play half-snow-covered, but I guess there are no real downsides...and you're less vulnerable to wake of destruction? Or to take advantage of someone else's extraplanar lens regardless if they're playing snow or not? Or is there some other motivation I haven't thought of?
The biggest reason is you can play Tainted Pact infalliably and still have maximum protection vs wasteland effects and other big time nonbasic hate. It's also one more land you can fetch when you get Path to Exile'd or Settle the Wreckage'd.
Yuriko is kind of a special case in that it doesn't really want to cast big mana spells most of the time, but I'm not really sure about that. I would need to see a no-budget decklist but my gut instinct is that their color demands are going to be high enough that lots of colorless sources are not a great choice - and many Yuriko decks could benefit from reanimate, dread return, that kinda stuff.
I've played Yuriko a bunch, and Tower isn't good there. The deck is super reliant on colored mana to the point where I'd just run a basic over an effect like this, and (Bl)inkmoth nexus & Ancient Tomb gets priority over Tower and so does other, better utility lands like Strip Mine & Scavenger Grounds. I've never had handsize come up in Yuriko except T2 and then you can't really have tower in play anyways because you need UB (ok, you can have a signet technically)
Yuriko also does not want Dread Return or Reanimate, and Yuriko also ideally play falsely high mana costs like Dig Through Time and not stuff like Desolation Twin (hence you don't want Dread Return)
Exotic Orchard
This has become a staple 3+ color card for me. YMMV but there's so many rainbowlands or pseudorainbowlands in the format that this almost always taps for whatever I want it to, or at least 2+ of my colors. I don't need it to manafix in 2C so it's not worth the mild risk but I never not run it in 3+C anymore. I'm not sure what better alternatives you are reffering to. Fetches+Shocks? True rainbowlands? The new battlebond stuff? Horizon lands? Sure, but you'll run out of those eventually
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This has become a staple 3+ color card for me. YMMV but there's so many rainbowlands or pseudorainbowlands in the format that this almost always taps for whatever I want it to, or at least 2+ of my colors. I don't need it to manafix in 2C so it's not worth the mild risk but I never not run it in 3+C anymore. I'm not sure what better alternatives you are reffering to. Fetches+Shocks? True rainbowlands? The new battlebond stuff? Horizon lands? Sure, but you'll run out of those eventually
Will you? Assuming 3c;
Fetch x10 (9 + Vista)
Abu x3
Shock x3
Bicycle x1-2 (pending shard or wedge)
Tango x1-2 (pending shard or wedge)
Filter x3
Cmd Twr
R. Pool
City
Confluence
Cavern
Strip Mine
Wasteland
Basic x6 - 7 (2x each + Wastes)
You're at 34 - 37 here pending wedge or shard already. Rather than that Orchard, you'd likely add a couple of utility lands - Maze of Ith, Thawing Glaciers, Myriad Landscape, Volrath's Stronghold, Blast Zone, Scavenging Grounds, Academy Ruins, Heliod's Hall, Cradle, High Market/Phyrexian Tower, Tower of the Magistrate........... and that's not even all of them. There's also a few other cycles of lands such as Painlands, Battlebonds, Checklands, Canopy lands, and a few other odds and ends.
Exotic Orchard never even crossed my mind, although it's a great land when you're on a budget.
Fetch x10 (9 + Vista)
Abu x3
Shock x3
Filter x3
Cmd Twr
City
Confluence
Agreed, all these should go into all 3c decks assuming you can afford them, except if you're splashing in which case you can go lighter on the filters.
Bicycle x1-2 (pending shard or wedge)
Tango x1-2 (pending shard or wedge)
ETB tapped is such a major downside though, even if they can be fetched. I'll run bicycle lands in slow decks, but I'm not into running tango lands that doesn't come into play untapped early on in the game, I'd rather run fastlands even if they're unfetchable.
R. Pool
I don't like this card. Not helping me get access to all my colors is a major downside. Orchard has been a lot more consistent for me.
Cavern
This doesn't go in every 3c deck, you only have enough room for colorless lands and unless you actively care for it's effect I'm not really interested. Yea, a lot of decks do care, but as I shy away from decks that are reliant on their commander, I'm personally not into it.
Strip Mine
Wasteland
Yes, goes into most decks, but colorless can be such a feelbad, and if you're on a color-greedy fast deck that doesn't care about Maze of Ith et al or can Vindicate things without much hassle, I'd skip them.
Basic x6 - 7 (2x each + Wastes)
I like doing 4 basics, no wastes, when I'm doing full-on greedy manabase. Is it for path redundancy (as you said above) that you like doing 6-7?
Rather than that Orchard, you'd likely add a couple of utility lands - Maze of Ith, Thawing Glaciers, Myriad Landscape, Volrath's Stronghold, Blast Zone, Scavenging Grounds, Academy Ruins, Heliod's Hall, Cradle, High Market/Phyrexian Tower, Tower of the Magistrate........... and that's not even all of them.
There's also a few other cycles of lands such as Painlands, Battlebonds, Checklands, Canopy lands, and a few other odds and ends.
Yes, but I don't tend to run a lot of them. They also don't compete directly with orchard. I don't like checklands (having to play a tapland in the first 3 turns of the game is awful).
That being said, now with canopylands, another fetch and london mulligan for even more greed, I might not add Orchard everywhere in 3c. As stated, YMMV but to me Orchard is a rainbowland very, very often. Even when it isn't, it's almost always at least blue. If I was completely budgetless (if I owned ABU) I might start dropping it from lists but the card has been great for me.
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If no maximum hand size is important enough to me to consider the tower, I can't only run tower, and would add the other half dozen cards that do the same. If I can't justify running those, I can't justify running the tower. I can't justify one-off effects in Commander. I always build for redundancy.
Re: Cavern. If you need to resolve your commander every game, then you need to play Cavern. Full stop. Regardless if the commander is integral or not to the strategy.
Re: Basics count. Settle the Wreckage existing is a major reason for my increased count, but it really has to do with Tainted Pact (one of each basic, one of each snow basic) and keeping the maximum resistance to Wasteland effects while still making Pact good.
Re: Tangos. If you don't have a spell on t1 you can safely fetch it on the person to your right's end step. If you don't, you can fetch it later. Sometimes it even comes in untapped anyway. It's pretty safe with a low opportunity provided you know how to fetch, though given not everyone has access to my mana I concede.
Re: Strip Mine. Colourless mana can be bad, but you're gonna use that to dissuade you from the best denial lands? That's a bit of a fallacy, though if you're that concerned you should still play at least Ancient Tomb. Or just run those lands through Arcum's Astrolabe to get your colours (which every deck should be playing due to it's ease of use and QoL upgrade). Hell if you're that worried about colourless, don't forget you have Cascading Cataracts to help with that issue.
I play Tower in Talrand, Sky Summoner draw go, and an never unhappy to see it. I easily get above 7 cards in hand and like to keep options open for permision. Also when I start chaining Time Warps I do not want to be discarding down every time. I want to keep building a critical mass of spells and drakes to win the game. One of the better lands in my deck. Utility slots are at less of a premium in mono-color.
All my other decks do not draw enough cards to warrant the slot. It is a niche lands in draw decks, but has lost much appeal every year more awesome utility lands are released. It is not a bad land, its just not very good most of the time.
Out of my 5 decks, only Talrand really want it. I see examples of other decks that also want it, but those are specialized, not your average control shell.
Re: Cavern. If you need to resolve your commander every game, then you need to play Cavern. Full stop. Regardless if the commander is integral or not to the strategy.
Yes, I agree. None of my current decks fit that criteria. A lot of decks do, but I personally don't build those kind of decks. If I build one, I'll get a cavern but right now none of my decks need to resolve their commanders (Wanderer might get one eventually, but it's far from a priority pickup).
Re: Basics count. Settle the Wreckage existing is a major reason for my increased count, but it really has to do with Tainted Pact (one of each basic, one of each snow basic) and keeping the maximum resistance to Wasteland effects while still making Pact good.
Ah, that's fair enough. I'm low on basics in my Tasigur deck for the same reason. If you run into Settle the Wreckage a lot I can definitely see why you're up to 6-7 basics.
Re: Tangos. If you don't have a spell on t1 you can safely fetch it on the person to your right's end step. If you don't, you can fetch it later. Sometimes it even comes in untapped anyway. It's pretty safe with a low opportunity provided you know how to fetch, though given not everyone has access to my mana I concede.
To me running tango's have a pretty low upside, as I can already fetch a shock, and if I have the budget, an ABU in the same colours. Being able to fetch a third land in the same color combination just doesn't feel necessary. The downside, while not happening often, can be very bad. If you're stuck with a hand where it's a tapland and because of that your signet is delayed a turn, or you can't keep a counterspell up and lose to a combo deck while you sit there with a tapped land and nothing to do. The second has lost me the game and the first has been tempo losses that might've lost me games as well, just not as obvious. I don't think the mild upside that a tango land comes in untapped late or that you have a third fetchable dual in a color combination has ever won me a game. That being said, all taplands aren't awful, I do run some cycling lands, but either in decks that have nothing to do turn 1 95% of the time or really wants the ability to turn the occasional land into a draw late. Keep in mind that for most of these lands I'm not trying to say that they're bad lands, just that they're not autoincludes.
Re: Strip Mine. Colourless mana can be bad, but you're gonna use that to dissuade you from the best denial lands? That's a bit of a fallacy, though if you're that concerned you should still play at least Ancient Tomb. Or just run those lands through Arcum's Astrolabe to get your colours (which every deck should be playing due to it's ease of use and QoL upgrade). Hell if you're that worried about colourless, don't forget you have Cascading Cataracts to help with that issue.
Yes, it goes into most decks so it's kind of a stupid point, I can concede to that. I've run it in everything I've made that I've had an opportunity to pick up one for, except very few decks where colorless mana just isn't that great, mana denial isn't that useful and glacial chasm not that relevant, which equates to some fast combo decks. But yes, most decks do want it. My only deck that doesn't want it (Jeleva) doesn't want Exotic Orchard either as it runs like 28 lands and I might drop that down to ~25 or so now with the london mulligan around the corner.
I'd much rather run a proper manabase than something like Cascading Cataracts that also is colorless and requires me to spend 5 (effectively 6) mana at the same time to be useful. I'll definitely be adding Arcum's Astrolabe to stuff, but again, not an autoinclude
Tangos are exceptional in 2-color decks but I only run them in 3 if I am designed in such a way as to allow lots of basics (see my Inalla deck with 15 basics in a 3-color deck because it's basically a 2 color deck).
As to how that relates to Reliquary Tower, I guess it's tangentially so about manabase construction.
Personally I prefer to run fewer colorless only producers and really light on situational stuff like exotic orchard or forbidden whatever. Those are risky. I'd rather fetch basics up most of the time, but having more fetches and more fetchable stuff really reduces the need for those kinds of cards.
So I mostly prefer to run 3-5 fetches and that really cuts back on the need for that stuff, while making you a bit more resilient to colorless producers.
But still doesn't free up enough space to ever wanna play reliquary tower for me lol
Huh, so this is a general land base discussion thread now. Cool.
I'm liking the mana base skeleton 3drinks has going on. So far the only reception Reflecting Pool has gotten in-thread was negative, but that thing is a house and I've shoed it into every single 2+ colour thing I ever built. True, it may not get you your missing colours, but it does tap for anything you already have available. And with a setup this elaborate, what you'll end up having is mostly anything you may desire.
Some other good budget stuff would be the tapped triland or Path of Ancestry (still budget relative to fetches). I'd agree Exotic Orchard comes online with three colours to work with - someone will usually have something for you to use. I also agree that it feels unreliable at two. It's a pity there's no real budget alternative to
(Fun fact - the one time I did a three colour deck I landed somewhere close to the 3drinks template, although with no ABUs/Cavern, sporting the triland and Orchard, and with pain lands instead of filters. That might have been deck specific, that thing gained so much life it ran Dark Tutelage over Phyrexian Arena for ease of casting it.)
The best 3-color manabase I ever used was ISBPathfinder's Jenara deck. That should be the starting point still imho.
9 fetches
3 abur duals
3 shocks
6/4/4 basics (primary / second / second)
3 filters
command tower
3 colorless lands of your choice (academy ruins, strip mine, kor haven in his deck)
1 flex land that makes colors or something (Flagstones in his)
I wouldn't mess much with that personally as a great starting point. It was always super smooth for me though.
Essentually it nets you ~21 of each off-color and 23 of the primary color, roughly, which is pretty much perfect for me. And it's high on basics so you're resilient to blood moon/ruination/back to basics/vitriol/etc. effects/
Again how that connects to this thread is that 3 colorless is about what I think belongs in most 3 color decks. Maaaybe 4 if you go up to 38 lands or so.
If no maximum hand size is important enough to me to consider the tower, I can't only run tower, and would add the other half dozen cards that do the same. If I can't justify running those, I can't justify running the tower. I can't justify one-off effects in Commander. I always build for redundancy.
I think this is a flawed way to build decks, albeit one that I can sympathize with because it does make it easier to understand what the deck's goals are. But the difference in commitment between running a colorless land - especially in a mono-colored deck - and running an entire card that does nothing else (spellbook for example) is pretty big. There are bound to be plenty of decks that would be willing to take a slight bump in fixing, but wouldn't be willing to sacrifice a whole card, for the effect.
There's also the fact that, with tutors being what they are, having one or two of the best version of an effect, with tutors to find them if necessary, can often be a lot stronger than simple redundancy, which could result in drawing blanks later. And add to that, if you're drawing tons of cards where you'd want to avoid discarding to endstep, your odds of drawing tower or a tutor for it are probably pretty high. The more you need it, the more likely you already have it.
I'd much rather run a proper manabase than something like Cascading Cataracts that also is colorless and requires me to spend 5 (effectively 6) mana at the same time to be useful. I'll definitely be adding Arcum's Astrolabe to stuff, but again, not an autoinclude
At the spot where Cataracts rests, it's often acceptable to "pay" the extra 1 (6::5) since it is fixing any mana, including lumps of colourless mana, into any combination of mana you desire. Though if we were speaking of, say, Crystal Quarry, I'd agree with that being a more rigid combination of mana.
Tangos are exceptional in 2-color decks but I only run them in 3 if I am designed in such a way as to allow lots of basics (see my Inalla deck with 15 basics in a 3-color deck because it's basically a 2 color deck).
Admittedly, my include of tangos is because I own the expedition, so I'd prefer to get it's use worth. But having a bunch of fetchable duals also happens to be quite strong.
I'm liking the mana base skeleton 3drinks has going on. So far the only reception Reflecting Pool has gotten in-thread was negative, but that thing is a house and I've shoed it into every single 2+ colour thing I ever built. True, it may not get you your missing colours, but it does tap for anything you already have available. And with a setup this elaborate, what you'll end up having is mostly anything you may desire.
Pool is fantastic when you run greedy colour commitments. Like, say, if you want to cast Grand Abolisher and Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker in the same deck. It's not without flaws - it never fixes colours, only replicates existing ones, but that kind of power, always coming untapped and providing 3 colours at once is a great feature.
At the risk of echoing what others have said, I always felt the card was useful but overrated. I only use it in a few decks which it can really benefit from it. The same is true with the mana rock Thought Vessel. The decks in which these cards are good in are thankful to have them, and in all others they would be better served by something else. I only own three Reliquary Towers as a result.
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On the original topic: I play it in some decks, usually the ones that will have potential for enormous draw and are not hurt by the colourless aspect, nor do they have a glut of colourless lands they want to play ahead of it. Part about what I like about it as a one-shot effect is that it is more likely to appear the more cards you draw. If you only draw a handful, you probably won't see it, but if you draw something like 30 all at once, you stand much better odds.
I think in those situations, Reliquary Tower is really good, and it's worth the opportunity cost over another land. However, I don't think I have more than a couple of decks that actually do this on a regular basis.
I think anyone who says it's "never" good are just ignoring the idea that there are some decks who want (or will stumble into) big hands, and those who say it's "always" good are kidding themselves on the number of cards they're going to have in hand during the average game.
I don't think anyone has said it's never good so much as rarely good, and almost never exceptionally good. When it's good it's OK and rarely the difference between winning and losing.
With Selvala, heart of the wilds for example if you make 24 mana and draw 24 cards off a 6 mana spell or 5 mana planeswalker, you have enough mana you can probably cast the meaningful stuff and bin the stuff that isn't great and still get your money's worth. How often is keeping those extra 8 cards you're not really interested in casting the difference between winning and losing? Probably not that many.
Selvala has some pretty hefty green commitments and also would really benefit from more basics and green tappers - given that if you're activating her ability after berserking a ghalta and casting Garruk you've used up GGGGGGG (that's 7 pips of green).
I think people tend to overstate how much colorless commitment mono colored decks can handle as well, and don't think about all the times it messes with their sequencing because their opener is Forest, Reliquary Tower, Strip mine or something.
I appreciate the balanced take but I think "really good" still overstates the case, personally People let you draw 20 cards it's not gonna hurt your chances of winning that much to keep+cast the best 10 most of the time.
I also maintain the likelihood is pretty high that people who are playing RQT in this position have missed a better colorless land that is more likely to win actual games.
With Selvala, the number of colorless lands that get stupid with her is pretty high.
Just a short list of stuff I would probably give serious thoughts to playing first. And since you're a dork deck you're probably not running 40 lands, probably more like 35, which means more than 5-ish is fairly risky with the likely very heavy green pip commitment and expectation you are going to always want two green producers in your opener.
Mirrorpool obviously is a special case that kinda wants you to commit to running more like 8-10 colorless sources, though stuff like Boreal druid and Thought Vessel and even Sol ring contribute to that. So you could leave it off if you want.
Edit: To add, also, if you draw 24 cards the likelihood you straight up just win is also high. If you draw say, Instill Energy or Wirewood Lodge or Wirewood Symbiote you can probably just keep casting stuff until you win. You draw an untapper and another draw spell and you can just keep going until you hit your haste outlet or whatever and the game's over.
There's probably a list of 20 cards that let you continue the chain; heck if you draw a second big draw spell like Greater Good or draw Staff of Domination or whatever.
At the spot where Cataracts rests, it's often acceptable to "pay" the extra 1 (6::5) since it is fixing any mana, including lumps of colourless mana, into any combination of mana you desire. Though if we were speaking of, say, Crystal Quarry, I'd agree with that being a more rigid combination of mana.
I meant that the problem is that I have to spend my mana in iterations of 5+ for it to do anything.
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I wonder how Pokken feels abput Strip Mine in many decks. I have cut it and Wasreland from all of my decks as well.
In my nearly 12 years of playing EDH/Commander (since late 2007), neither land has ever mattered to me. There is no land in Magic which scares me to the point of needing either card. Not Gaea's Cradle, Dark Depths, Maze's End, Academy Ruins, or anything else you can think of. I have never lost BECAUSE of those lands. Lots of green mana doesn't matter, just stopping the Tooth and Nail or whatever they want to cast with it. Academy Ruins doesn't matter with graveyard hate. Merit Lage doesn't have Hexproof/Shroud, and Either pair of boots should be removed on sight in most cases anyway. The list goes on.
When we want to talk about the Tower, it is more useful in my Athreos (Shadowborn Apostle) deck than either Strip Mine or Wasteland have EVER been in Commander for 12 years.
I learned quickly that I was not cracking my Wasteland in each game I played, and noticed that the colorless was worse for me than any other land would have been.
My mono black Kagemaro, First to Suffer deck also loves the Tower as well.
I agree that it is overrated, and I also agree that people run too many colorless sources inntheir mono colored and two color decks and that Tower is often one of those cards which should be replaced, but it does have its place in some decks.
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Eh, I don't think strip/waste are autoincludes. Though they have surely become sacred cows at least in concept (that you must include some kind of land destruction).
That said I have won tons of games having access to them; not just loam/crucible locks/sun titan, which I surely have done a few times. The big issue with them is that they aren't particularly good when you hamstring yourself to leave them up to interact.
Here's the thing about Coffers, Cradle or Maze of Ith or whatever. sometimes you just don't have an answer to the stuff they're going to do with it, but you do have a strip mine. And sometimes that land is something you simply cannot do anything about.
The land that I get people with the most in Gitrog that I bet they wish they could deal with is Eye of Ugin. There is jack squat you can do about Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger or Emrakul, the promised End. and I'm going to just keep pumping them out until you kill it. Strip Mine isn't a great answer but combined with grave hate it can get the job done where not much else does except dedicated land removal spells (which are foul).
All that said the thing I kill the most with strip mine is strip mine so I can do my emeria and coffers nonsense in peace.
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I would also love to look at your Athreos deck. I can't fathom what that deck wants to do with a reliquary tower. I would expect you would really want a Volrath's Stronghold first at the least, and I can think of a lot of great colorless lands in those colors.
At the spot where Cataracts rests, it's often acceptable to "pay" the extra 1 (6::5) since it is fixing any mana, including lumps of colourless mana, into any combination of mana you desire. Though if we were speaking of, say, Crystal Quarry, I'd agree with that being a more rigid combination of mana.
I meant that the problem is that I have to spend my mana in iterations of 5+ for it to do anything.
Yes, that does suck that it's relegated to bursts of five. At least it's both indestructible and taps for C on it's own. And it is a gorgeous foil.
I don't think anyone has said it's never good so much as rarely good, and almost never exceptionally good. When it's good it's OK and rarely the difference between winning and losing.
With Selvala, heart of the wilds for example if you make 24 mana and draw 24 cards off a 6 mana spell or 5 mana planeswalker, you have enough mana you can probably cast the meaningful stuff and bin the stuff that isn't great and still get your money's worth. How often is keeping those extra 8 cards you're not really interested in casting the difference between winning and losing? Probably not that many.
At a multiplayer table, often. You discard down to 7, and then the next person wraths everything you developed. The other two players might still be holding wraths.
So, yeah, frequently, you want more gas.
With Selvala, the number of colorless lands that get stupid with her is pretty high.
Just a short list of stuff I would probably give serious thoughts to playing first.
Honestly, some of these lands look like a reach. You're telling me that Reliquary Tower isn't going to win me many games, but are willing to tap the equivalent of 5 mana to net ramp 1 land with Blighted Woodland. What are your opponents even doing if this is a line of play that doesn't result in you being really far behind?
Petrified Field is pretty corner-case; you're using it to counter their land destruction? I guess? And Deserted Temple? Because you absolutely must untap Wirewood Lodge, or... what? What land in your list do you think will frequently provide an advantage that so obviously exceeds Reliquary Tower when untapped with Deserted Temple?
Mirrorpool obviously is a special case that kinda wants you to commit to running more like 8-10 colorless sources, though stuff like Boreal druid and Thought Vessel and even Sol ring contribute to that. So you could leave it off if you want.
... and then, after this whole case on why running colourless lands in a 'colour hungry' deck is a bad idea, you decide that Mirrorpool is a good inclusion, and then want to double-down on a commitment to colourless mana.
Man, you must really hate Reliquary Tower.
-----
Edit for story time:
Tonight, I played two games involving Reliquary Tower, both of them in my Pir/Toothy deck. In both games, Toothy I drew between 30-75 cards. In the first game, Toothy got to some number, and I played Prime Speaker Zegana which made Toothy even more enormous, and then I threw him under the bus with High Market to find a win. I didn't find an immediate win, but, I drew into Reliquary Tower, and kept a huge grip of cards that let me win in the next two turns.
The second game, Toothy got to 10ish from Hardened Scales. I cast Replicate on Toothy (for reference, Repudiate // Replicate), keeping the token copy, drawing 10, putting 20 counters on the token copy. Played Reliquary Tower, passed. Next turn, played Toothy from the command zone, drew 20+ cards, found Lightning Greaves and Herald of Secret Streams to swing for 40+ general damage.
I'm kind of sold on the idea that Reliquary Tower didn't win me either of these games (with a caveat, see below*). They were 1v1 games, and the first game was largely locked up when I drew a ton (my opponent had very little gas left, and the best 7 would have sufficed). The second game, both of the cards needed to win were still in my library.
I did play a game with Scarab God as my commander in which I drew Reliquary Tower, but it neither hindered me, nor did it help me.
*I will say this, though: Not needing to make any decision about discarding in either of the Pir/Toothy cases allowed me more mental space to map out possibilities to win. Additionally, had I drawn one combo piece but not the other, I could have easily made the mistake of discarding one combo piece in favour of generally good cards (like counterspells and generic wincons) with the idea that I might not get the other half (on odds alone, if you have one combo piece, no tutors, and have drawn half your deck, you're not really all that likely to draw the 1 in 50 cards you need during your draw step). Additionally, in neither Pir/Toothy case was my opponent able to use Beacon of Unrest or similar on me.
Deserted temple gets you untaps on nykthos and cradle and lodge. And yavimays hollow and and and. It's very good.
Petrified field counters opposing land destruction. Which is pretty good when you have lands like wirewood lodge that rate destruction. I would prioritize it lower than say, Scavenger grounds, mostly. But it can be good. In groups I've been in any time I drop a cradle it's a priority strip target
Mirror pool is a commitment but it's also very very strong. So if you play basic search spells or land tutors or a decent amount of artifact ramp and want a small colorless package like, say worldbreaker or something, it can be good. I don't think I'd run it in a lot of decks but I could see it. It's definitely more powerful in a vacuum.
Re: toothy stuff
Eh I guess. We've mostly established that one of rqts main utilities is easing the burden of burst card draw. It has some utility.
But you know what stands out for me there is how good high market is
Are you sure it was right to immediately draw there tho? In either scenario really but esp zegana sequence.
If I have a 40/40 toothy and a 20/20 prime speaker I think I maybe just start bashing and keep market up. At least get yourself fully untapped before drawing 40.
I used to run this in most(if not all) of my decks. But I started to notice that it wasn't as fun/useful as I thought. Discarding IS powerful...in certain decks. Holding on to a 40+ hand IS powerful...in certain decks. Having utility lands IS powerful...in certain decks.
Those three points have led to me currently only having Reliquary Tower in one deck...and I bet everyone can guess which deck it is.
It's not just because, as others have pointed out, I'm hoarding resources and gimping my board state(which I'm not). Not surprisingly, my hand is also a resource, so yeah...I can regularly get a 20+ hand and turn that around into a pro/re-action. It's amazingly fun and wonderful when that happens. I can often go without Reliquary(instant speed and all), but I don't believe I've ever lost a game because I had this safety net(or it's arty cousin).
EDH decks: 1. RGWMayael's Big BeatsRETIRED!
2. BUWMerieke Ri Berit and the 40 Thieves
3. URNiv's Wheeling and Dealing!
4. BURThe Walking Dead
5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)
You clearly take your rejection of Reliquary Tower as a point of pride, so I'm not going to make any headway here. If you'd like to jump over into Zedruu and try and suggest anything "better" for a deck that's played between 1 and 4 no maximum handsize effects for 8 years and is well acquainted with the impact of cutting one, you're welcome to try but you won't succeed.
You have to understand how foolish you look from my perspective. I've played with the card extensively, I know the floors and ceilings. It doesn't matter how many times you put the card down, I have the hands on experience that you're contradicting, I'm not just going to say "well, I guess that was a fever dream after all." I guess when it comes down to it, if you play a Reliquary Tower and it loses you more games than it wins, that means you built your deck wrong and that might not be the Tower's fault.
Please, with the foolish talk.
Just cut them all and play better stuff, except for Thought vessel. It's the only one worth playing on account of 2 Cmc rocks are very good magic cards in most decks Although debatable utility with Zedruu's very large color commitments.
Scavenger Grounds or Strip Mine would be straight upgrades.
What are you trying to do with all those cards, enable Firestorm and Mindmoil?
Your commander is a ridiculous draw engine. You don't need a pile of cards, and you don't really have that many reactive cards (9 instants, and leyline/orrery?). The only real issue I see is when you've got to play with Rest in Peace on the battlefield and losing cards you might need later?
But all of that considered, the fundamental thing is the deck is very weak and plays a bunch of wonky suboptimal bloated wincons that require you to play 4 cards most of which are independently bad (memnite??). I don't mean that as a mean comment, it just is the way you've designed your deck.
Ultimately my verdict is that RQT looks okay in that deck, but just OK. Games where you are drawing 4 cards a turn with Zedruu you will win most of the time whether you have to discard some of them or not, because you got the lock in and you are going to win.
The reason it's OK is because you're playing really suboptimal winconditions to make your deck more friendly. That's fine, but it makes your choice largely aesthetic. You'll almost surely win more games being able to strip mine an opposing land.
All that said here is the list of promised upgrades (in no order) I have for you (any one is likely better, but take your pick)
1) Enlightened Tutor
2) Sensei's Divining Top (though you would probably need to have a few more shuffle effects for this to work actually)
3) Scroll Rack
4) Myriad Landscape
5) Strip Mine
6) Scavenger Grounds
7) Blast zone
8) Command Beacon
9) Weathered Wayfarer
10) Land Tax
11) Flooded Strand
12) Academy Ruins
13) Hall of Heliod's Generosity
14) Buried Ruin
Edit: sorry for the edits I just keep thinking of more:P
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This one's for free but your manabase is an unmitigated disaster. You're obviously not operating with a lot of budget restrictions here so if you want me to fix it I'll take a stab for ya just let me know what your fetch rules are (e.g. how many fetches you prefer).
Probably the best thing you can do for your deck is to cut Gemstone Caverns and Reliquary Tower for either a couple fetches or Nimbus Maze and Fiery Islet
If you need a comprehensive list of issues your manabase has:
* not distributed according to color cost even taking into account Zedruu's ability. You have more blue pips than red+white combined and you've got barely 21 blue sources with a very aggressive count of them
* only 30 lands that make colors in a deck with zero filtration and zero draw outside of your commander and a few howling mine effects
* Too many ETB tapped lands (9!!!) that's a crapload.
* Fetches obviously though I think that is intentional
* Forbidden Orchard/Exotic Orchard both much worse than alternatives and the latter unreliable, best used in 5c decks
* Nykthos? Really? In a 3c deck that gives away its permanents and isn't really that heavy on permanents with pips? Is your goal to tap it for +3 mana on turn 73?
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
The biggest reason is you can play Tainted Pact infalliably and still have maximum protection vs wasteland effects and other big time nonbasic hate. It's also one more land you can fetch when you get Path to Exile'd or Settle the Wreckage'd.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I've played Yuriko a bunch, and Tower isn't good there. The deck is super reliant on colored mana to the point where I'd just run a basic over an effect like this, and (Bl)inkmoth nexus & Ancient Tomb gets priority over Tower and so does other, better utility lands like Strip Mine & Scavenger Grounds. I've never had handsize come up in Yuriko except T2 and then you can't really have tower in play anyways because you need UB (ok, you can have a signet technically)
Yuriko also does not want Dread Return or Reanimate, and Yuriko also ideally play falsely high mana costs like Dig Through Time and not stuff like Desolation Twin (hence you don't want Dread Return)
This has become a staple 3+ color card for me. YMMV but there's so many rainbowlands or pseudorainbowlands in the format that this almost always taps for whatever I want it to, or at least 2+ of my colors. I don't need it to manafix in 2C so it's not worth the mild risk but I never not run it in 3+C anymore. I'm not sure what better alternatives you are reffering to. Fetches+Shocks? True rainbowlands? The new battlebond stuff? Horizon lands? Sure, but you'll run out of those eventually
UGR Wanderer
UGB Tasigur Control
URB Jeleva Storm
RW Gisela Control
Will you? Assuming 3c;
Fetch x10 (9 + Vista)
Abu x3
Shock x3
Bicycle x1-2 (pending shard or wedge)
Tango x1-2 (pending shard or wedge)
Filter x3
Cmd Twr
R. Pool
City
Confluence
Cavern
Strip Mine
Wasteland
Basic x6 - 7 (2x each + Wastes)
You're at 34 - 37 here pending wedge or shard already. Rather than that Orchard, you'd likely add a couple of utility lands - Maze of Ith, Thawing Glaciers, Myriad Landscape, Volrath's Stronghold, Blast Zone, Scavenging Grounds, Academy Ruins, Heliod's Hall, Cradle, High Market/Phyrexian Tower, Tower of the Magistrate........... and that's not even all of them. There's also a few other cycles of lands such as Painlands, Battlebonds, Checklands, Canopy lands, and a few other odds and ends.
Exotic Orchard never even crossed my mind, although it's a great land when you're on a budget.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Agreed, all these should go into all 3c decks assuming you can afford them, except if you're splashing in which case you can go lighter on the filters.
ETB tapped is such a major downside though, even if they can be fetched. I'll run bicycle lands in slow decks, but I'm not into running tango lands that doesn't come into play untapped early on in the game, I'd rather run fastlands even if they're unfetchable.
I don't like this card. Not helping me get access to all my colors is a major downside. Orchard has been a lot more consistent for me.
This doesn't go in every 3c deck, you only have enough room for colorless lands and unless you actively care for it's effect I'm not really interested. Yea, a lot of decks do care, but as I shy away from decks that are reliant on their commander, I'm personally not into it.
Yes, goes into most decks, but colorless can be such a feelbad, and if you're on a color-greedy fast deck that doesn't care about Maze of Ith et al or can Vindicate things without much hassle, I'd skip them.
I like doing 4 basics, no wastes, when I'm doing full-on greedy manabase. Is it for path redundancy (as you said above) that you like doing 6-7?
Rather than that Orchard, you'd likely add a couple of utility lands - Maze of Ith, Thawing Glaciers, Myriad Landscape, Volrath's Stronghold, Blast Zone, Scavenging Grounds, Academy Ruins, Heliod's Hall, Cradle, High Market/Phyrexian Tower, Tower of the Magistrate........... and that's not even all of them.
There's also a few other cycles of lands such as Painlands, Battlebonds, Checklands, Canopy lands, and a few other odds and ends.
Yes, but I don't tend to run a lot of them. They also don't compete directly with orchard. I don't like checklands (having to play a tapland in the first 3 turns of the game is awful).
That being said, now with canopylands, another fetch and london mulligan for even more greed, I might not add Orchard everywhere in 3c. As stated, YMMV but to me Orchard is a rainbowland very, very often. Even when it isn't, it's almost always at least blue. If I was completely budgetless (if I owned ABU) I might start dropping it from lists but the card has been great for me.
UGR Wanderer
UGB Tasigur Control
URB Jeleva Storm
RW Gisela Control
Re: Basics count. Settle the Wreckage existing is a major reason for my increased count, but it really has to do with Tainted Pact (one of each basic, one of each snow basic) and keeping the maximum resistance to Wasteland effects while still making Pact good.
Re: Tangos. If you don't have a spell on t1 you can safely fetch it on the person to your right's end step. If you don't, you can fetch it later. Sometimes it even comes in untapped anyway. It's pretty safe with a low opportunity provided you know how to fetch, though given not everyone has access to my mana I concede.
Re: Strip Mine. Colourless mana can be bad, but you're gonna use that to dissuade you from the best denial lands? That's a bit of a fallacy, though if you're that concerned you should still play at least Ancient Tomb. Or just run those lands through Arcum's Astrolabe to get your colours (which every deck should be playing due to it's ease of use and QoL upgrade). Hell if you're that worried about colourless, don't forget you have Cascading Cataracts to help with that issue.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I also played it in Riku, of Two Reflections, but it did not do much work there. I have both Stroke of Genius and Blue Sun's Zenith for big draw and I want to keep all the cards. It is not very impressive here.
All my other decks do not draw enough cards to warrant the slot. It is a niche lands in draw decks, but has lost much appeal every year more awesome utility lands are released. It is not a bad land, its just not very good most of the time.
Out of my 5 decks, only Talrand really want it. I see examples of other decks that also want it, but those are specialized, not your average control shell.
Yes, I agree. None of my current decks fit that criteria. A lot of decks do, but I personally don't build those kind of decks. If I build one, I'll get a cavern but right now none of my decks need to resolve their commanders (Wanderer might get one eventually, but it's far from a priority pickup).
Ah, that's fair enough. I'm low on basics in my Tasigur deck for the same reason. If you run into Settle the Wreckage a lot I can definitely see why you're up to 6-7 basics.
To me running tango's have a pretty low upside, as I can already fetch a shock, and if I have the budget, an ABU in the same colours. Being able to fetch a third land in the same color combination just doesn't feel necessary. The downside, while not happening often, can be very bad. If you're stuck with a hand where it's a tapland and because of that your signet is delayed a turn, or you can't keep a counterspell up and lose to a combo deck while you sit there with a tapped land and nothing to do. The second has lost me the game and the first has been tempo losses that might've lost me games as well, just not as obvious. I don't think the mild upside that a tango land comes in untapped late or that you have a third fetchable dual in a color combination has ever won me a game. That being said, all taplands aren't awful, I do run some cycling lands, but either in decks that have nothing to do turn 1 95% of the time or really wants the ability to turn the occasional land into a draw late. Keep in mind that for most of these lands I'm not trying to say that they're bad lands, just that they're not autoincludes.
Yes, it goes into most decks so it's kind of a stupid point, I can concede to that. I've run it in everything I've made that I've had an opportunity to pick up one for, except very few decks where colorless mana just isn't that great, mana denial isn't that useful and glacial chasm not that relevant, which equates to some fast combo decks. But yes, most decks do want it. My only deck that doesn't want it (Jeleva) doesn't want Exotic Orchard either as it runs like 28 lands and I might drop that down to ~25 or so now with the london mulligan around the corner.
I'd much rather run a proper manabase than something like Cascading Cataracts that also is colorless and requires me to spend 5 (effectively 6) mana at the same time to be useful. I'll definitely be adding Arcum's Astrolabe to stuff, but again, not an autoinclude
UGR Wanderer
UGB Tasigur Control
URB Jeleva Storm
RW Gisela Control
The land type is also very relevant if you're looking to play stuff like Emeria, the sky ruin or Cabal Coffers.
As to how that relates to Reliquary Tower, I guess it's tangentially so about manabase construction.
Personally I prefer to run fewer colorless only producers and really light on situational stuff like exotic orchard or forbidden whatever. Those are risky. I'd rather fetch basics up most of the time, but having more fetches and more fetchable stuff really reduces the need for those kinds of cards.
So I mostly prefer to run 3-5 fetches and that really cuts back on the need for that stuff, while making you a bit more resilient to colorless producers.
But still doesn't free up enough space to ever wanna play reliquary tower for me lol
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I'm liking the mana base skeleton 3drinks has going on. So far the only reception Reflecting Pool has gotten in-thread was negative, but that thing is a house and I've shoed it into every single 2+ colour thing I ever built. True, it may not get you your missing colours, but it does tap for anything you already have available. And with a setup this elaborate, what you'll end up having is mostly anything you may desire.
Some other good budget stuff would be the tapped triland or Path of Ancestry (still budget relative to fetches). I'd agree Exotic Orchard comes online with three colours to work with - someone will usually have something for you to use. I also agree that it feels unreliable at two. It's a pity there's no real budget alternative to
(Fun fact - the one time I did a three colour deck I landed somewhere close to the 3drinks template, although with no ABUs/Cavern, sporting the triland and Orchard, and with pain lands instead of filters. That might have been deck specific, that thing gained so much life it ran Dark Tutelage over Phyrexian Arena for ease of casting it.)
9 fetches
3 abur duals
3 shocks
6/4/4 basics (primary / second / second)
3 filters
command tower
3 colorless lands of your choice (academy ruins, strip mine, kor haven in his deck)
1 flex land that makes colors or something (Flagstones in his)
I wouldn't mess much with that personally as a great starting point. It was always super smooth for me though.
Essentually it nets you ~21 of each off-color and 23 of the primary color, roughly, which is pretty much perfect for me. And it's high on basics so you're resilient to blood moon/ruination/back to basics/vitriol/etc. effects/
Again how that connects to this thread is that 3 colorless is about what I think belongs in most 3 color decks. Maaaybe 4 if you go up to 38 lands or so.
And the competition for those 3 is quite fierce
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
There's also the fact that, with tutors being what they are, having one or two of the best version of an effect, with tutors to find them if necessary, can often be a lot stronger than simple redundancy, which could result in drawing blanks later. And add to that, if you're drawing tons of cards where you'd want to avoid discarding to endstep, your odds of drawing tower or a tutor for it are probably pretty high. The more you need it, the more likely you already have it.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
At the spot where Cataracts rests, it's often acceptable to "pay" the extra 1 (6::5) since it is fixing any mana, including lumps of colourless mana, into any combination of mana you desire. Though if we were speaking of, say, Crystal Quarry, I'd agree with that being a more rigid combination of mana.
Admittedly, my include of tangos is because I own the expedition, so I'd prefer to get it's use worth. But having a bunch of fetchable duals also happens to be quite strong.
Pool is fantastic when you run greedy colour commitments. Like, say, if you want to cast Grand Abolisher and Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker in the same deck. It's not without flaws - it never fixes colours, only replicates existing ones, but that kind of power, always coming untapped and providing 3 colours at once is a great feature.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
The best example I have is Selvala, Heart of the Wilds. Some of the creatures get truly massive, and Soul's Majesty, Hunter's Insight, Garruk, Primal Hunter, and Rishkar's Expertise can draw a lot. If I Berserk a Ghalta, Primal Hunger, I might draw 24. I have (with Mossbridge Troll and/or Grothama, All-Devouring) drawn upwards of 50.
I think in those situations, Reliquary Tower is really good, and it's worth the opportunity cost over another land. However, I don't think I have more than a couple of decks that actually do this on a regular basis.
I think anyone who says it's "never" good are just ignoring the idea that there are some decks who want (or will stumble into) big hands, and those who say it's "always" good are kidding themselves on the number of cards they're going to have in hand during the average game.
http://www.commandercast.com/category/articles/generally-speaking
Follow me on Twitter: @generalspeak
With Selvala, heart of the wilds for example if you make 24 mana and draw 24 cards off a 6 mana spell or 5 mana planeswalker, you have enough mana you can probably cast the meaningful stuff and bin the stuff that isn't great and still get your money's worth. How often is keeping those extra 8 cards you're not really interested in casting the difference between winning and losing? Probably not that many.
Selvala has some pretty hefty green commitments and also would really benefit from more basics and green tappers - given that if you're activating her ability after berserking a ghalta and casting Garruk you've used up GGGGGGG (that's 7 pips of green).
I think people tend to overstate how much colorless commitment mono colored decks can handle as well, and don't think about all the times it messes with their sequencing because their opener is Forest, Reliquary Tower, Strip mine or something.
I appreciate the balanced take but I think "really good" still overstates the case, personally People let you draw 20 cards it's not gonna hurt your chances of winning that much to keep+cast the best 10 most of the time.
I also maintain the likelihood is pretty high that people who are playing RQT in this position have missed a better colorless land that is more likely to win actual games.
With Selvala, the number of colorless lands that get stupid with her is pretty high.
Just a short list of stuff I would probably give serious thoughts to playing first. And since you're a dork deck you're probably not running 40 lands, probably more like 35, which means more than 5-ish is fairly risky with the likely very heavy green pip commitment and expectation you are going to always want two green producers in your opener.
Mirrorpool obviously is a special case that kinda wants you to commit to running more like 8-10 colorless sources, though stuff like Boreal druid and Thought Vessel and even Sol ring contribute to that. So you could leave it off if you want.
Edit: To add, also, if you draw 24 cards the likelihood you straight up just win is also high. If you draw say, Instill Energy or Wirewood Lodge or Wirewood Symbiote you can probably just keep casting stuff until you win. You draw an untapper and another draw spell and you can just keep going until you hit your haste outlet or whatever and the game's over.
There's probably a list of 20 cards that let you continue the chain; heck if you draw a second big draw spell like Greater Good or draw Staff of Domination or whatever.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I meant that the problem is that I have to spend my mana in iterations of 5+ for it to do anything.
UGR Wanderer
UGB Tasigur Control
URB Jeleva Storm
RW Gisela Control
In my nearly 12 years of playing EDH/Commander (since late 2007), neither land has ever mattered to me. There is no land in Magic which scares me to the point of needing either card. Not Gaea's Cradle, Dark Depths, Maze's End, Academy Ruins, or anything else you can think of. I have never lost BECAUSE of those lands. Lots of green mana doesn't matter, just stopping the Tooth and Nail or whatever they want to cast with it. Academy Ruins doesn't matter with graveyard hate. Merit Lage doesn't have Hexproof/Shroud, and Either pair of boots should be removed on sight in most cases anyway. The list goes on.
When we want to talk about the Tower, it is more useful in my Athreos (Shadowborn Apostle) deck than either Strip Mine or Wasteland have EVER been in Commander for 12 years.
I learned quickly that I was not cracking my Wasteland in each game I played, and noticed that the colorless was worse for me than any other land would have been.
My mono black Kagemaro, First to Suffer deck also loves the Tower as well.
I agree that it is overrated, and I also agree that people run too many colorless sources inntheir mono colored and two color decks and that Tower is often one of those cards which should be replaced, but it does have its place in some decks.
That said I have won tons of games having access to them; not just loam/crucible locks/sun titan, which I surely have done a few times. The big issue with them is that they aren't particularly good when you hamstring yourself to leave them up to interact.
Here's the thing about Coffers, Cradle or Maze of Ith or whatever. sometimes you just don't have an answer to the stuff they're going to do with it, but you do have a strip mine. And sometimes that land is something you simply cannot do anything about.
The land that I get people with the most in Gitrog that I bet they wish they could deal with is Eye of Ugin. There is jack squat you can do about Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger or Emrakul, the promised End. and I'm going to just keep pumping them out until you kill it. Strip Mine isn't a great answer but combined with grave hate it can get the job done where not much else does except dedicated land removal spells (which are foul).
All that said the thing I kill the most with strip mine is strip mine so I can do my emeria and coffers nonsense in peace.
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I would also love to look at your Athreos deck. I can't fathom what that deck wants to do with a reliquary tower. I would expect you would really want a Volrath's Stronghold first at the least, and I can think of a lot of great colorless lands in those colors.
Off the top of my head -
( I am assuming you want a land that can find/recur thrumming stone anyway)
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
At a multiplayer table, often. You discard down to 7, and then the next person wraths everything you developed. The other two players might still be holding wraths.
So, yeah, frequently, you want more gas.
Honestly, some of these lands look like a reach. You're telling me that Reliquary Tower isn't going to win me many games, but are willing to tap the equivalent of 5 mana to net ramp 1 land with Blighted Woodland. What are your opponents even doing if this is a line of play that doesn't result in you being really far behind?
Petrified Field is pretty corner-case; you're using it to counter their land destruction? I guess? And Deserted Temple? Because you absolutely must untap Wirewood Lodge, or... what? What land in your list do you think will frequently provide an advantage that so obviously exceeds Reliquary Tower when untapped with Deserted Temple?
... and then, after this whole case on why running colourless lands in a 'colour hungry' deck is a bad idea, you decide that Mirrorpool is a good inclusion, and then want to double-down on a commitment to colourless mana.
Man, you must really hate Reliquary Tower.
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Edit for story time:
Tonight, I played two games involving Reliquary Tower, both of them in my Pir/Toothy deck. In both games, Toothy I drew between 30-75 cards. In the first game, Toothy got to some number, and I played Prime Speaker Zegana which made Toothy even more enormous, and then I threw him under the bus with High Market to find a win. I didn't find an immediate win, but, I drew into Reliquary Tower, and kept a huge grip of cards that let me win in the next two turns.
The second game, Toothy got to 10ish from Hardened Scales. I cast Replicate on Toothy (for reference, Repudiate // Replicate), keeping the token copy, drawing 10, putting 20 counters on the token copy. Played Reliquary Tower, passed. Next turn, played Toothy from the command zone, drew 20+ cards, found Lightning Greaves and Herald of Secret Streams to swing for 40+ general damage.
I'm kind of sold on the idea that Reliquary Tower didn't win me either of these games (with a caveat, see below*). They were 1v1 games, and the first game was largely locked up when I drew a ton (my opponent had very little gas left, and the best 7 would have sufficed). The second game, both of the cards needed to win were still in my library.
I did play a game with Scarab God as my commander in which I drew Reliquary Tower, but it neither hindered me, nor did it help me.
*I will say this, though: Not needing to make any decision about discarding in either of the Pir/Toothy cases allowed me more mental space to map out possibilities to win. Additionally, had I drawn one combo piece but not the other, I could have easily made the mistake of discarding one combo piece in favour of generally good cards (like counterspells and generic wincons) with the idea that I might not get the other half (on odds alone, if you have one combo piece, no tutors, and have drawn half your deck, you're not really all that likely to draw the 1 in 50 cards you need during your draw step). Additionally, in neither Pir/Toothy case was my opponent able to use Beacon of Unrest or similar on me.
http://www.commandercast.com/category/articles/generally-speaking
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Petrified field counters opposing land destruction. Which is pretty good when you have lands like wirewood lodge that rate destruction. I would prioritize it lower than say, Scavenger grounds, mostly. But it can be good. In groups I've been in any time I drop a cradle it's a priority strip target
Mirror pool is a commitment but it's also very very strong. So if you play basic search spells or land tutors or a decent amount of artifact ramp and want a small colorless package like, say worldbreaker or something, it can be good. I don't think I'd run it in a lot of decks but I could see it. It's definitely more powerful in a vacuum.
Re: toothy stuff
Eh I guess. We've mostly established that one of rqts main utilities is easing the burden of burst card draw. It has some utility.
But you know what stands out for me there is how good high market is
Are you sure it was right to immediately draw there tho? In either scenario really but esp zegana sequence.
If I have a 40/40 toothy and a 20/20 prime speaker I think I maybe just start bashing and keep market up. At least get yourself fully untapped before drawing 40.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall