While I'm a big fan of control decks, I'm finding myself having trouble building them well in Commander. We're playing at a decent powerlevel, but still casual, so without MLD or overly oppressive stax. With control commanders like Niv-Mizzet or Dralnu, it's fairly easy to get a win if people don't focus you early because you have no intimidating board presence - but of course that's not a mistake people will frequently repeat once they've seen what an unchecked Niv can do in the lategame. In the early game, however, if several more creature-based decks go after you, I found myself struggling.
How do you guys build your decks to deal with this? Up the wrath count? If so, how many sweepers do you think are ideal? I've already started running a few cards like Propaganda and Maze of Ith, but there's not actually that many of those.
Kykar might be a new control commander who has in-built against this very problem by creating chump blockers, but I'm curious about more general advice. Looking forward to your thoughts!
I guess it depends on the colors. I run both Ephara and Niv-Mizzet, Parun (so, WU and UR) as my control decks.
Ephara is relatively straightforward as I just use wraths and small creatures to stem the tide of attackers. I only run a few wraths. I run 6 total and that is counting things like C. Rift and Angel of the Dire Hour which are obviously a stretch and high on the mana cost. But I also run Selfless Squire and Seht's Tiger (I don't like this card much though) which also help against "alpha strikes".
Otherwise, I focus on spot removal and a few counters. Looking at my list, it actually looks pretty light on all of it but the pieces come together well.
Niv is a little trickier as you lose white and, thus, most good, cheap mass removal spells. Blasphemous Act and Magmaquake are my destruction spells and things like C Rift, Devastation Tide, and Evacuation give me Mass Bounce that I can then Wheel or Twister away their hands. And, of course, spot removal like Pongify, Rapid Hybridization, and Chaos Warp keep problematic permanents off the field. And, counters (more so than Ephara).
Admittedly, I don't play against much "true" aggro but there are decks that are faster than control because that is just the way it is. Tutors can also help get to your answers if you want to do that.
As for Propaganda and Maze, I don't think Propaganda is worth it. But, if you feel that it is doing good work in your meta, definitely keep using it. Maze is a bit better and I have more success with it in Ephara. I also run Kor Haven in Ephara. I don't run Maze in Niv since he needs colored mana and having a land not tap for mana is a big deal in that deck.
Another thing to keep in mind is that no matter how many wraths you have, using them too soon can be costly. Sometimes you need to get hit for a turn or two before using it to ensure you get the most out of it. Using it too soon just means they rebuild and now you have no answer for their rebuilt board state.
If the whole table is trying to make one person lose, that person should lose. If they don't, the deck power gap is so great that you are no longer playing a real game.
play piddly little things early, be totally nonthreatening. aim for the long game not the short one. if you have an answer to something and the choice is play your rock or keep mana up to deal with that thing, keep the mana up. make a friend as quick as you can. guy bro over there is about to get his ***** stopped? shoot some disruption out to stop that and gain his favor.
what i find is sometimes i do have to be mean to a single player. green guy is ramping? spell pierce his cultivate, let that other guy's cultivate go through even though you could stop it. strip mine his only black source, or his coffers. its difficult because you can't be TOO aggressive with control early. you have to be subtle. basically you're shooting for table police to try and gain favor
sometimes its tricky, because people will gun for the control player right away especially if they know your tricks... but thats where politics come into play. getting pounded? try to strike a deal. explain how you're not the threat to the rest of the table.
now if they're just charging into you right away, disrupting you, stopping you while you already have no board state... well... call them on it. explain to them how unfun that is for you, to have no board state and to not be a threat and just get hammered into the ground while someone else is free to do whatever they want for the win. it sucks. it does. but a lot of people forget that there should be no memory from the previous pod.
The thing about Propaganda is that it's a trick. It's a fairly good trick, but a trick nonetheless. Anyone can attack into it if they want to (although it does stop Twin), but the point is that it lowers their willingness to attack you even a slight bit.
I've been trying to play control in ~75% for ages now, and it can be tough. Classic draw-go doesn't work as you can't one-for-one the table and people will hit you in the face. The two ways I've found that work is:
a) Be completely non-treatening the whole game, and ideally spend your resources subtly getting more resources. Don't play cards that make your opponents attack you, and hope to stay alive until the lategame where you can do something to just end the game, ideally by beating down with a non-threatening commander. DirkGently's Pheldagriff deck is a good example of this, and it's how I built my Gisela. I run eight sweepers and some recurrence to reuse them, but that might be 1-2 sweepers too many.
b) Control the table for a while and then attempt to either combo off or play strong cards that are a tad too expensive mana-wise for normal games. You don't need to spend as much resources here on gaining more resources, just spend your resources to make sure no one wins before then, eventually comboing off yourself or start playing threats (ideally comboing off). This might cause you to become archenemy in further games though, so be a bit careful. Even here it's important to not be a threat, as if you're a threat people will just archenemy you until you're dead.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
UG Arixmethes Combo UGR Wanderer UGB Tasigur Control URB Jeleva Storm RW Gisela Control
If the whole table is trying to make one person lose, that person should lose. If they don't, the deck power gap is so great that you are no longer playing a real game.
this is true. If you want to win, the key is in convincing them not to be totally aggressive to you in the first place.
Don't play scary things early.
Don't be too obviously sandbagging either. Playing minor threats early can alleviate this impression. Playing a weaker deck can also accomplish this.
Don't always answer enemy threats right away. The impression of invulnerability makes you a more desirable target. Take some hits, let others take the lead and be threatening to take pressure off you.
Threatening spot removal can be more effective than wiping the board. Convince them to send threats elsewhere and it's a double win for you.
I've got a bunch more in my phelddagrif primer, but those are the ones that spring to mind.
As somebody who loves control and combo more than aggro or mid-range, I guess that I will share my experiences and thoughts.
To begin with, there are several different types of control, and this wheel might help you pinpoint what kind you wish to play. Knowing what style you want, as opposed to the blanket term of "control" will also help you get better answers.
It is my opinion and my experience that traditional "draw-go" control is only viable in duels, and even then, it has been outclassed by "tap-out" control for the last 10-15 years or so. I agree with 75chan, when they said:
Classic draw-go doesn't work as you can't one-for-one the table and people will hit you in the face.
"Lock" control is straight forward, as your aim is to just lock the the table out with something like Rule of Law + a flipped Erayo's Essence or maybe Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir + Knowledge Pool. these kinds of deck goals tend to put a target on your back in future games, which I do not recommend in the long term.
Combo control is a term I struggle with. Isa combo deck with control back up a combo-control deck? Or is it a control deck which has a combo or twoto win the game? Is it both? Regardless, combo leaves a bad taste in the mouth of some people and is the topic of debate in a few other threads, including something Sheldon wrote about recently and has become an 8+ page thread.
So, if you want to play control, but not be a combo deck or a lock-out style, then that really just leaves tap-out control.
There are many ways to build such a deck, though the most successful ones I have seen tend to be "super friends" planeswalker focused decks. Not every walker can protect itself, but many can. Walkers can often create enough self defense and incremental advantage that they take over games, especially when combined with quality enchantments, static artifacts, and powerful sorcery spells. In my experience, it is not a specific planeswalker that you are trying to Ultimate, but simply getting one or more to their ultimate can often be game winning, and with so many coming into play each turn, it sometimes feels like there is an air of inevitability.
The only control decks I have ever had real success with in Commander have been mono-black control (MBC) and my Roon of the Hidden Realm deck which uses EtB triggers for value. I am not saying that they are the only way to play, but they are the only ways that work for me. Roon defends itself by being able to block and flicker and get value each turn until the game ends. MBC is a deck which can play arch enemy and win. The access to board wipes, mass discard, and Drain Life effects (see what I did there?) such as Exsanguinate and Gary keep you alive, and can often double as win conditions all their own.
"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
My Numot, the Devastator control deck is probably my most successful. It runs maybe 6/7 wraths along with a decent number of spot removal spells.
One of the keys to the deck though is that the creatures also act as spot removal e.g. Bloodfire Colossus. It doesn't run too many counterspells and I think 4/5 planeswalkers.
I built the deck with the intention to ramp well and when the board state looks scary reset it. My win conditions can be big scary creatures or enchantments such as Assemble the Legion which over time takes over the game.
My other successful control deck is Dralnu, Lich Lord. This deck is very much a more draw go, with 7/8 counter spells, ways to steal opponents creatures or spells. The idea is to just grind out opponents and when everyone gets into top deck mode I play Dralnu and begin the replay my whole deck.
Casting Time Stretch into flashback casting it again usually seals the deal.
I do think life gain can be beneficial. Something like Sun Droplet is nice as over time it just gets you all that life you lost.
If you go the enchantment route then you will have a successful you can stall for quite some time but the winning can be hard, especially when opponents wise up to what you win with.
There are some rattlesnake cards that I mentioned a one-of because there are multiple cards that serve the exact same purpose (like Thypioid Rats, Ruthless Ripper, and Ophiomancer)
Hope this helps.
I play some walls/rattlesnakes. Stuff like Baleful Strix or Spellskite. I'm also a fan of Maze of Ith. My defenses are often merely discouraging or soft, but that's usually enough to send people elsewhere.
As somebody who loves control and combo more than aggro or mid-range, I guess that I will share my experiences and thoughts.
To begin with, there are several different types of control, and this wheel might help you pinpoint what kind you wish to play. Knowing what style you want, as opposed to the blanket term of "control" will also help you get better answers.
Where is this picture originally from? I can see it's from SCG, but I couldn't figure out how to reverse search the article. I can tell instantly from the picture that I'll love the article.
It is my opinion and my experience that traditional "draw-go" control is only viable in duels, and even then, it has been outclassed by "tap-out" control for the last 10-15 years or so. I agree with 75chan, when they said:
Classic draw-go doesn't work as you can't one-for-one the table and people will hit you in the face.
I think you missed the rest of 75chan's post. TRADITIONAL draw-go doesn't work - but most decks from other formats can't be ported directly into commander. Draw-go in commander requires political consideration to work, but when that is properly utilized it can be a very viable strategy.
Where is this picture originally from? I can see it's from SCG, but I couldn't figure out how to reverse search the article. I can tell instantly from the picture that I'll love the article.
Next Level Deck Building by Patrick Chapin. Send me a PM.
"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
If the whole table is trying to make one person lose, that person should lose. If they don't, the deck power gap is so great that you are no longer playing a real game.
I agree. There was one guy at my LGS (he moved away sadly. Not liking the decks but he was a pretty decent guy.
Anyway we could have a pod of 4 and he would win about 90% or more of his games. He claimed his decks were not cEDHh but even when I built a cEDH deck and played him, it was quite difficult to do so. Some players would focus him. And I would tunnel vision on him every game.
It's also why I hate derevi decks,I will murder derevi players before focusing on other decks simply due to the PTSD his deck gave me. Thrasios and tymno decks also bug me, But they are mainly a cEDH deck anyway.
Additionally if you can counter a spell that other players at the table want countered, you can earn brownie points. If you bounce or destroy a permanent that is annoying other players, you earn brownie points.
Important details:
-Know how liked your commander is. You may need to change it up if people target you for sake of your commander.
-Have an even distribution of removal, wipes, counters (if possible), disruption, and draw/recursion.
-Have one or more clearly defined win conditions which should be easily explainable once you establish control over the game.
-Let yourself and your cards fall graciously. Threatening cards might serve a better purpose towards trust if you let them die sometimes and letting yourself lose and accepting it when you are ganged up on is very important.
-Play politics. This can go very far for control players who have a wealth of answers to cards so letting your opponents actually play the game is important.
How do you guys build your decks to deal with this? Up the wrath count? If so, how many sweepers do you think are ideal? I've already started running a few cards like Propaganda and Maze of Ith, but there's not actually that many of those.
Kykar might be a new control commander who has in-built against this very problem by creating chump blockers, but I'm curious about more general advice. Looking forward to your thoughts!
Ephara is relatively straightforward as I just use wraths and small creatures to stem the tide of attackers. I only run a few wraths. I run 6 total and that is counting things like C. Rift and Angel of the Dire Hour which are obviously a stretch and high on the mana cost. But I also run Selfless Squire and Seht's Tiger (I don't like this card much though) which also help against "alpha strikes".
Otherwise, I focus on spot removal and a few counters. Looking at my list, it actually looks pretty light on all of it but the pieces come together well.
Niv is a little trickier as you lose white and, thus, most good, cheap mass removal spells. Blasphemous Act and Magmaquake are my destruction spells and things like C Rift, Devastation Tide, and Evacuation give me Mass Bounce that I can then Wheel or Twister away their hands. And, of course, spot removal like Pongify, Rapid Hybridization, and Chaos Warp keep problematic permanents off the field. And, counters (more so than Ephara).
Admittedly, I don't play against much "true" aggro but there are decks that are faster than control because that is just the way it is. Tutors can also help get to your answers if you want to do that.
As for Propaganda and Maze, I don't think Propaganda is worth it. But, if you feel that it is doing good work in your meta, definitely keep using it. Maze is a bit better and I have more success with it in Ephara. I also run Kor Haven in Ephara. I don't run Maze in Niv since he needs colored mana and having a land not tap for mana is a big deal in that deck.
Another thing to keep in mind is that no matter how many wraths you have, using them too soon can be costly. Sometimes you need to get hit for a turn or two before using it to ensure you get the most out of it. Using it too soon just means they rebuild and now you have no answer for their rebuilt board state.
If the whole table is trying to make one person lose, that person should lose. If they don't, the deck power gap is so great that you are no longer playing a real game.
play piddly little things early, be totally nonthreatening. aim for the long game not the short one. if you have an answer to something and the choice is play your rock or keep mana up to deal with that thing, keep the mana up. make a friend as quick as you can. guy bro over there is about to get his ***** stopped? shoot some disruption out to stop that and gain his favor.
what i find is sometimes i do have to be mean to a single player. green guy is ramping? spell pierce his cultivate, let that other guy's cultivate go through even though you could stop it. strip mine his only black source, or his coffers. its difficult because you can't be TOO aggressive with control early. you have to be subtle. basically you're shooting for table police to try and gain favor
sometimes its tricky, because people will gun for the control player right away especially if they know your tricks... but thats where politics come into play. getting pounded? try to strike a deal. explain how you're not the threat to the rest of the table.
now if they're just charging into you right away, disrupting you, stopping you while you already have no board state... well... call them on it. explain to them how unfun that is for you, to have no board state and to not be a threat and just get hammered into the ground while someone else is free to do whatever they want for the win. it sucks. it does. but a lot of people forget that there should be no memory from the previous pod.
I've been trying to play control in ~75% for ages now, and it can be tough. Classic draw-go doesn't work as you can't one-for-one the table and people will hit you in the face. The two ways I've found that work is:
a) Be completely non-treatening the whole game, and ideally spend your resources subtly getting more resources. Don't play cards that make your opponents attack you, and hope to stay alive until the lategame where you can do something to just end the game, ideally by beating down with a non-threatening commander. DirkGently's Pheldagriff deck is a good example of this, and it's how I built my Gisela. I run eight sweepers and some recurrence to reuse them, but that might be 1-2 sweepers too many.
b) Control the table for a while and then attempt to either combo off or play strong cards that are a tad too expensive mana-wise for normal games. You don't need to spend as much resources here on gaining more resources, just spend your resources to make sure no one wins before then, eventually comboing off yourself or start playing threats (ideally comboing off). This might cause you to become archenemy in further games though, so be a bit careful. Even here it's important to not be a threat, as if you're a threat people will just archenemy you until you're dead.
UGR Wanderer
UGB Tasigur Control
URB Jeleva Storm
RW Gisela Control
Clone is nice because if someone has the best creature on the board then so do you.
Don't play scary things early.
Don't be too obviously sandbagging either. Playing minor threats early can alleviate this impression. Playing a weaker deck can also accomplish this.
Don't always answer enemy threats right away. The impression of invulnerability makes you a more desirable target. Take some hits, let others take the lead and be threatening to take pressure off you.
Threatening spot removal can be more effective than wiping the board. Convince them to send threats elsewhere and it's a double win for you.
I've got a bunch more in my phelddagrif primer, but those are the ones that spring to mind.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
To begin with, there are several different types of control, and this wheel might help you pinpoint what kind you wish to play. Knowing what style you want, as opposed to the blanket term of "control" will also help you get better answers.
It is my opinion and my experience that traditional "draw-go" control is only viable in duels, and even then, it has been outclassed by "tap-out" control for the last 10-15 years or so. I agree with 75chan, when they said:
"Lock" control is straight forward, as your aim is to just lock the the table out with something like Rule of Law + a flipped Erayo's Essence or maybe Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir + Knowledge Pool. these kinds of deck goals tend to put a target on your back in future games, which I do not recommend in the long term.
Combo control is a term I struggle with. Isa combo deck with control back up a combo-control deck? Or is it a control deck which has a combo or twoto win the game? Is it both? Regardless, combo leaves a bad taste in the mouth of some people and is the topic of debate in a few other threads, including something Sheldon wrote about recently and has become an 8+ page thread.
So, if you want to play control, but not be a combo deck or a lock-out style, then that really just leaves tap-out control.
There are many ways to build such a deck, though the most successful ones I have seen tend to be "super friends" planeswalker focused decks. Not every walker can protect itself, but many can. Walkers can often create enough self defense and incremental advantage that they take over games, especially when combined with quality enchantments, static artifacts, and powerful sorcery spells. In my experience, it is not a specific planeswalker that you are trying to Ultimate, but simply getting one or more to their ultimate can often be game winning, and with so many coming into play each turn, it sometimes feels like there is an air of inevitability.
The only control decks I have ever had real success with in Commander have been mono-black control (MBC) and my Roon of the Hidden Realm deck which uses EtB triggers for value. I am not saying that they are the only way to play, but they are the only ways that work for me. Roon defends itself by being able to block and flicker and get value each turn until the game ends. MBC is a deck which can play arch enemy and win. The access to board wipes, mass discard, and Drain Life effects (see what I did there?) such as Exsanguinate and Gary keep you alive, and can often double as win conditions all their own.
One of the keys to the deck though is that the creatures also act as spot removal e.g. Bloodfire Colossus. It doesn't run too many counterspells and I think 4/5 planeswalkers.
I built the deck with the intention to ramp well and when the board state looks scary reset it. My win conditions can be big scary creatures or enchantments such as Assemble the Legion which over time takes over the game.
My other successful control deck is Dralnu, Lich Lord. This deck is very much a more draw go, with 7/8 counter spells, ways to steal opponents creatures or spells. The idea is to just grind out opponents and when everyone gets into top deck mode I play Dralnu and begin the replay my whole deck.
Casting Time Stretch into flashback casting it again usually seals the deal.
I do think life gain can be beneficial. Something like Sun Droplet is nice as over time it just gets you all that life you lost.
If you go the enchantment route then you will have a successful you can stall for quite some time but the winning can be hard, especially when opponents wise up to what you win with.
There are some rattlesnake cards that I mentioned a one-of because there are multiple cards that serve the exact same purpose (like Thypioid Rats, Ruthless Ripper, and Ophiomancer)
Hope this helps.
http://www.commandercast.com/category/articles/generally-speaking
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Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Where is this picture originally from? I can see it's from SCG, but I couldn't figure out how to reverse search the article. I can tell instantly from the picture that I'll love the article.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Next Level Deck Building by Patrick Chapin. Send me a PM.
Anyway we could have a pod of 4 and he would win about 90% or more of his games. He claimed his decks were not cEDHh but even when I built a cEDH deck and played him, it was quite difficult to do so. Some players would focus him. And I would tunnel vision on him every game.
It's also why I hate derevi decks,I will murder derevi players before focusing on other decks simply due to the PTSD his deck gave me. Thrasios and tymno decks also bug me, But they are mainly a cEDH deck anyway.
Additionally, you could play some group hug cards, or cards that encourage a player to attack another player, like:
Additionally if you can counter a spell that other players at the table want countered, you can earn brownie points. If you bounce or destroy a permanent that is annoying other players, you earn brownie points.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
-Know how liked your commander is. You may need to change it up if people target you for sake of your commander.
-Have an even distribution of removal, wipes, counters (if possible), disruption, and draw/recursion.
-Have one or more clearly defined win conditions which should be easily explainable once you establish control over the game.
-Let yourself and your cards fall graciously. Threatening cards might serve a better purpose towards trust if you let them die sometimes and letting yourself lose and accepting it when you are ganged up on is very important.
-Play politics. This can go very far for control players who have a wealth of answers to cards so letting your opponents actually play the game is important.