This is one of the most durdly do nothing cards on the list. I heard Sheldon played one game where it was “too good”. What is the most broken thing you can do? You need to have any extra turn already on the stack and 10 mana to play this and imprint Time Warp for infinite turns. Right now there are many many faster and more consistent ways to win the game.
A mass LD spell on it is not really much worse than the first one casted imo. The first one that blows up all our lands and now this keeps us at 0. Usually the guy who casts it will already be ahead on board, will 1-4 lands help if you’re behind on board? In my experience it doesn’t.
What does everyone else think? TL;DR the card is too slow to be an instant win issue. Other than extra turns I can’t think of another spell that would be an issue
I think it's less about the instant wins and more that many cards you might imprint on it will become annoying. Board wipes being something that most decks will run and could bring the game to a standstill with panoptic.
I'm not necessarily against it being legal but I think it's more about the annoyance factor than the auto-win one, although I'm sure they're both part of it.
Btw you only really need 5 mana. You imprint the extra turn spell on your upkeep, with the trigger on the stack. Fairly certain even if panoptic is removed in response you'll still get one extra turn.
But the extra turns thing is why it’s banned if you get to your next turn with the mirror with a extra turn that’s it infinite turns unless someone destorys it on thr first one
And even outside extra turns you can lock down creature states with a board wipes
Plus the new ultimatums makes it even harder to unban
It's 2020. We live in an EDH world where God-Eternal Kefnet infinite turns exists - a near cEDH quality deck that can easily be made obnoxiously consistent and oppressive even when built on a budget since it only requires two expensive cards for the combo to function (JtMS & scroll rack).
There is no current good reason for the mirror to remain banned. There are a number of cards on the banlist that shouldn't be in this day & age (braids, cabal minion when Urza stax is far more oppressive, Coalition Victory which fails to multiple types of targeted removal, Erayo, Soratami Ascendant when stasis & winter orbs are easier to work with, Lutri, the Spellchaser as a commander or in the 99, paradox engine when dramatic scepter is quicker and more powerful)
edit; just to clarify - I'm not for adding cards to the banlist. IMO it should be as small a list as possible.
It's 2020. We live in an EDH world where God-Eternal Kefnet infinite turns exists - a near cEDH quality deck that can easily be made obnoxiously consistent and oppressive even when built on a budget since it only requires two expensive cards for the combo to function (JtMS & scroll rack).
There is no current good reason for the mirror to remain banned. There are a number of cards on the banlist that shouldn't be in this day & age (braids, cabal minion when Urza stax is far more oppressive, Coalition Victory which fails to multiple types of targeted removal, Erayo, Soratami Ascendant when stasis & winter orbs are easier to work with, Lutri, the Spellchaser as a commander or in the 99, paradox engine when dramatic scepter is quicker and more powerful)
edit; just to clarify - I'm not for adding cards to the banlist. IMO it should be as small a list as possible.
It's not necessarily about how effective the card is. It's more about how it can easily generate awkward and unfun situations. There are tons of ways to win via combo or stax in EDH, the point of the banlist is not to prevent those strategies from working. It's to prevent people from accidentally generating those situations when they just thought they were adding cool, non-oppressive cards.
Braids, Cabal Minion as a general can be quite annoying (although I also think it'll be fine), they just banned it when they got rid of the "banned as a commander" banlist, which was imo a mistake.
Paradox Engine can totally lead to unfun situations if you're just running a few rocks, without even thinking about comboing off.
For Erayo, Soratami Ascendant and Coalition Victory, I'm not sure. It might because they look harder to enable than it is in reality? Also Coalition Victory might be run in almost every 5-colors deck, which does not encourage diversity.
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Sorry for my possible english mistakes, I'm not a native speaker.
I have three 5-color decks and would never add coalition victory. Sure my mana in the decks is perfect for the card, but I would have to force myself to include duplicate 5-color creatures next to my general. And if I ever did display a coalition victory win then it's just another approach of the second sun effect where everyone is aware of it's presence and then gangs up on you. Your commander would be kill-on-site, and you make yourself the auto-target for random strip mine effects at all points in the game, which is awful for 5-color to deal with. If you include combo enablers like dryad of the ilysian grove/prismatic omen and chromanticore/transguild courier then building around coalition victory is no longer just an "I-win" card, it's a combo taking multiple dedicated slots in the 99.
I may not be remembering this correctly, but one of the primary reasons braids & erayo were banned was due to complications with multiple ban-lists for MtGO.
I've also gone on many rants about paradox engine already. Yes it's strong, but there were better options to ban for "unfun" situations. PE was one of the few enablers for tap-matters generals, and banning it took a large chunk of creativity and fun away from exploring commanders with tap abilities. The banning of PE opposed to so many other better options was what really shook my primary metas trust and faith in the committee, and was the spark that drove us to house-rules.
I have three 5-color decks and would never add coalition victory. Sure my mana in the decks is perfect for the card, but I would have to force myself to include duplicate 5-color creatures next to my general. And if I ever did display a coalition victory win then it's just another approach of the second sun effect where everyone is aware of it's presence and then gangs up on you. Your commander would be kill-on-site, and you make yourself the auto-target for random strip mine effects at all points in the game, which is awful for 5-color to deal with. If you include combo enablers like dryad of the ilysian grove/prismatic omen and chromanticore/transguild courier then building around coalition victory is no longer just an "I-win" card, it's a combo taking multiple dedicated slots in the 99.
This is not a question of power level, it's the fact that it doesn't really require anything specific that made it banned imo. Sure, your general might be the only 5-colors creature in your deck but it's still there, and having two 3-colors creatures might also do the trick. Also, the power level of your playgroup might be higher than most casual tables. When you analyse the banlist, you should probably ask yourself: "What kind of play does this card promote? How is it likely to show up in decks that can run it color-wise? Can it accidentally ruin games and leave a bad taste in people's mouths?" You don't need to win consistently with Coalition Victory, it can be there just as a plan B, or plan C, or even plan D. And if your whole playgroup has to gang up on you to compensate the fact that you run it, then maybe it is worth it to have it on the banlist?
I may not be remembering this correctly, but one of the primary reasons braids & erayo were banned was due to complications with multiple ban-lists for MtGO.
I've also gone on many rants about paradox engine already. Yes it's strong, but there were better options to ban for "unfun" situations. PE was one of the few enablers for tap-matters generals, and banning it took a large chunk of creativity and fun away from exploring commanders with tap abilities. The banning of PE opposed to so many other better options was what really shook my primary metas trust and faith in the committee, and was the spark that drove us to house-rules.
The fact that it helps tap-matters generals is certainly an upside, but the card was too susceptible to degenerate plays. If a majority of the players were playing it with combo in mind, or were comboing often enough without even wanting to do so in the deckbuilding process (again, accidental unfun situations), then banning the card was likely the right choice.
There's also no reason to feel bad about having to house-rule some stuff. That's the essence of EDH: keep the core rules and adjust the details to your meta. The banlist is there to give you a general idea of what might cause problems in your game, nobody is pointing a gun at you to make sure you follow it.
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Sorry for my possible english mistakes, I'm not a native speaker.
Time walk effects are the most broken thing you can do with panopticon mirror, but that’s just a 2 card combo. I don’t think it’s that bad. There are more efficient 2 card combos. At least you can just say game over once they successfully imprint a time walk.
Panoptic Mirror seems much worse when you play it “fair” and imprint something like wrath of god, demonic tutor, Armageddon, or even explosive vegigitation.
You quickly set up combos that lead to mass destroying permanents every turn or multiple tutor effects per turn. Anything that does that would be far more annoying than a combo that ends the game.
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This is one of the most durdly do nothing cards on the list. I heard Sheldon played one game where it was “too good”. What is the most broken thing you can do? You need to have any extra turn already on the stack and 10 mana to play this and imprint Time Warp for infinite turns. Right now there are many many faster and more consistent ways to win the game.
A mass LD spell on it is not really much worse than the first one casted imo. The first one that blows up all our lands and now this keeps us at 0. Usually the guy who casts it will already be ahead on board, will 1-4 lands help if you’re behind on board? In my experience it doesn’t.
What does everyone else think? TL;DR the card is too slow to be an instant win issue. Other than extra turns I can’t think of another spell that would be an issue
I'm not necessarily against it being legal but I think it's more about the annoyance factor than the auto-win one, although I'm sure they're both part of it.
Btw you only really need 5 mana. You imprint the extra turn spell on your upkeep, with the trigger on the stack. Fairly certain even if panoptic is removed in response you'll still get one extra turn.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Fake thread name there’s no unban announcement of panoptic mirror
Plus Sheldon usually mentions unban son his twitter nothing is there
But the extra turns thing is why it’s banned if you get to your next turn with the mirror with a extra turn that’s it infinite turns unless someone destorys it on thr first one
And even outside extra turns you can lock down creature states with a board wipes
Plus the new ultimatums makes it even harder to unban
There is no current good reason for the mirror to remain banned. There are a number of cards on the banlist that shouldn't be in this day & age (braids, cabal minion when Urza stax is far more oppressive, Coalition Victory which fails to multiple types of targeted removal, Erayo, Soratami Ascendant when stasis & winter orbs are easier to work with, Lutri, the Spellchaser as a commander or in the 99, paradox engine when dramatic scepter is quicker and more powerful)
edit; just to clarify - I'm not for adding cards to the banlist. IMO it should be as small a list as possible.
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!
It's not necessarily about how effective the card is. It's more about how it can easily generate awkward and unfun situations. There are tons of ways to win via combo or stax in EDH, the point of the banlist is not to prevent those strategies from working. It's to prevent people from accidentally generating those situations when they just thought they were adding cool, non-oppressive cards.
I have three 5-color decks and would never add coalition victory. Sure my mana in the decks is perfect for the card, but I would have to force myself to include duplicate 5-color creatures next to my general. And if I ever did display a coalition victory win then it's just another approach of the second sun effect where everyone is aware of it's presence and then gangs up on you. Your commander would be kill-on-site, and you make yourself the auto-target for random strip mine effects at all points in the game, which is awful for 5-color to deal with. If you include combo enablers like dryad of the ilysian grove/prismatic omen and chromanticore/transguild courier then building around coalition victory is no longer just an "I-win" card, it's a combo taking multiple dedicated slots in the 99.
TLDR - a half good approach of the second sun deck will function far above a very good coalition victory deck.
I may not be remembering this correctly, but one of the primary reasons braids & erayo were banned was due to complications with multiple ban-lists for MtGO.
I've also gone on many rants about paradox engine already. Yes it's strong, but there were better options to ban for "unfun" situations. PE was one of the few enablers for tap-matters generals, and banning it took a large chunk of creativity and fun away from exploring commanders with tap abilities. The banning of PE opposed to so many other better options was what really shook my primary metas trust and faith in the committee, and was the spark that drove us to house-rules.
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!
This is not a question of power level, it's the fact that it doesn't really require anything specific that made it banned imo. Sure, your general might be the only 5-colors creature in your deck but it's still there, and having two 3-colors creatures might also do the trick. Also, the power level of your playgroup might be higher than most casual tables. When you analyse the banlist, you should probably ask yourself: "What kind of play does this card promote? How is it likely to show up in decks that can run it color-wise? Can it accidentally ruin games and leave a bad taste in people's mouths?" You don't need to win consistently with Coalition Victory, it can be there just as a plan B, or plan C, or even plan D. And if your whole playgroup has to gang up on you to compensate the fact that you run it, then maybe it is worth it to have it on the banlist?
Okay, that would make sense.
The fact that it helps tap-matters generals is certainly an upside, but the card was too susceptible to degenerate plays. If a majority of the players were playing it with combo in mind, or were comboing often enough without even wanting to do so in the deckbuilding process (again, accidental unfun situations), then banning the card was likely the right choice.
There's also no reason to feel bad about having to house-rule some stuff. That's the essence of EDH: keep the core rules and adjust the details to your meta. The banlist is there to give you a general idea of what might cause problems in your game, nobody is pointing a gun at you to make sure you follow it.
Panoptic Mirror seems much worse when you play it “fair” and imprint something like wrath of god, demonic tutor, Armageddon, or even explosive vegigitation.
You quickly set up combos that lead to mass destroying permanents every turn or multiple tutor effects per turn. Anything that does that would be far more annoying than a combo that ends the game.