Maybe nobody cares or maybe we are not allowed to talk about it here, but I wonder where better than the Commander forums is a better place to address topics related to The Command Zone episodes? Specifically, I wanted to dive deeper into episode #335 which came out a few days ago (June 11, 2020).
Link: https://youtu.be/rtfqJjLbADA
To begin, even they admit to a small sample size. So, is the whole episode a waste of time as a result?
Secondly, I feel in many ways it has some confirmation to things we have written about for years and have had some interesting back and forth talks on.
I, for one, have a pet peeve about how often preview cards and spoilers are often dismissed and a caveat added on "but it will be good in Commander" while I am sitting here thinking, "No. Just because a big splashy creatures or spell costs 6+ doesn't mean it will be good in Commander." I know it doesn't matter and I can dismiss the card, but it bothers me that it is said and influences how people evaluate cards and perpetuate these myths.
I'm the video there are some key talking points that I remember and wanted to address: How often do you cast your commander?
They claim the number is an average of less than twice per game and even low cmc commanders are far under 3 times peer game.
I agree with this and have found that interesting when talking about building around one's Commanders.
Lowcmc Commanders are often not worth paying the tax for a third time or more (6 generic Mana). High cmc Commanders are often too expensive to cast a third time, let alone more. Even middle of the road CMC Commanders (say 4-6 Mana?) Are not worth paying 10-12 on even if you get that late in the game.
This is why having ways to get your commander back from the graveyard or to return it to your hand is far better than letting it return to the command zone after you have cast it a second time... assuming you have in the first place.
How many board wipes are played in a game?
Again, they say somewhere more than one and less than two on average and almost never three or more.
This is close to my heart as someone who owns an Edgar Markov deck and am sick of hearing how that deck folds to a board wipe. Not to get off topic, but a well built Edgar deck can easily rebuild from a wipe or two, and rarely does one ever see a third. If any deck would, it is an Edgar deck, and with all of the card draw mine has, even a third wipe is just a speed bump which forces everybody else to reset as well.
Asin any game of magic, you never want to over extend, but if there ever was a time to, it would be after a second wipe, as the chances of a third are slim to none.
How many turns does a game last?
They found the range of 8-12, with more ending at 9 than any other turn.
I tend to agree with this data point as well. Some games will take longer but are the exception.
I find that turns 1-3 are where we fix our Mana, cast ramp and utility.
Turns 4-6 are where threats, answers, and card draw is cast.
I have found turns 7-9 are when the explosive plays are made. The punches and counter punches. Attempts at combo and stopping said attempts. Players end to get knocked out and the game swings on a key choice of who to take out and how the following turn goes.
How many attacks are made in a game? How many by a single player?
I found it interesting and also a confirmation that many decks don't attack at all or might make as few as two attack in an entire game, while the "beat down" deck attacks as many (or few) times as 6 per game.
What can we learn, if anything, from this?
How manny spells which cost 6+ are cast by a player or in the while game?
This was another low number, and the sample size was not looking at cEDH games.
As has been said on The Command Zone many times and I agree with deeply, it is far better to chain together multiple lowered cmc spells than it is to cast most single haymakers. Sure, there are some very powerful high cmc spells, but many are cheated into play rather than cast... often by said cheaper cmc spells you chain together.
"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
I think this is a different answer based on a few things:
How dependent is your deck on your Commander?
If your deck is highly reliant on your Commander - say a Meren, or Nemata, Grove Guardian deck, you may be more likely to play it more often - especially if it's a Commander that can ensure you insane value the longer the game goes on?
How much value do you expect to get out of your Commander?
Casting Isamaru, Hound of Konda for the third or fourth time may not be quite so exciting - Commanders like Meren only get better as the game goes on, so replaying Meren late game to recur a massive end-game threat can still be quite valuable.
How much card draw do you run?
If you run out of things to do, you're more likely to have that extra mana lying around to replay your Commander. This is especially true if you've actually cut card draw, because you're relying on your Commander to provide some of the Card draw for you. Even if your Commander isn't central to the deck, you may be more likely to replay it if it's a key part to getting that engine running.
How much ramp do you run?
Quite simply, if you have 30 mana lying around, and extra 2-6 might not mean that much.
How many board wipes are played in a game?
So the way this is worded makes it sound like people shouldn't play around board wipes as much, but I take this result to mean that people need to play more board wipes overall.
I tend to run 3 boardwipes per deck, if able - it can shift a bit depending on the deck, and go anywhere from 2 to 5, but 3 is my starting point. I also like to draw cards, and occasionally run some narrow tutors. Often I look for boardwipes with synergy, and that I might be able to recur.
If I see a third of my deck in a game (which, given starting 7 cards, and say... 10 turns, and that I should be trying to draw at least one extra card per turn (in order to play both a land + card per turn) - seeing a third of my deck is not unreasonable. Given those assumptions - I should, on average, see a board clear in my hand.
Now, each of the other three players should be doing the same - which means in theory - each of them should see a board clear. In theory, there should be roughly 4 available board clears in any given game.
I'll be the first to say that that theory doesn't match up with what I see played. Partially, because I know that some of my opponents aren't running 3 board clears. Some of them aren't drawing enough cards. If they die to not having a boardwipe - they should probably look into that.
How many turns does a game last?
This is highly dependent on the meta. In fact, all of the other question's answers are HEAVILY influenced by this question alone. If you're playing a turn 5 tuned meta with combo - everything changes compared to a turn 10-15 battlecruiser slugfest. More turns = more mana, and more opportunities to do ANYTHING.
Also, this is the most useless question there is. There is no reason to average a battlecruiser turn count with a tuned combo meta turn count, and that's not even getting into cEDH. I've played games that have gone over 25 turns. I've played some that ended at turn 5. They were very different metas, and very different ideas of fun, and they belong nowhere near to influencing each others metrics in this category.
How many attacks are made in a game? How many by a single player?
I feel this answer changes if you're in a combo meta or not.
How man my spells which cost 6+ are cast by a player or in the while game?
I... question this one. Frost Titan is a 6+ cost spell. Ulvenwald Hydra is a 6+ cost spell. Are they specifically talking about instant/sorcery haymakers? I might get behind it if it was only non-creature spells, but even then a good number of upper end wraths can fit in the 6+ range, and those aren't game enders.
their conclusions are about the same as my experience in my local group. even the most aggressive commanders tend to not be cast more than about 2 times. the tax ends up high enough where there are just better plays, unless the entire deck revolves around the commander as the sole means to win. we've upped our spot removal to deal with threats/combos and it incidentally also helped deal with commanders pretty consistently. a lot of them act more like enchantments, or one shot spells than true creatures. there's always exceptions to that.
How many board wipes are played in a game?
my local group's results again mimic what they've said. most of us are running just 1 board wipe. we all pretty much saw the necessity of spot removal and toned down our wipes in favor of that. plus, almost any time the table actually needs to be wiped someone has one. it only takes 1 to get the job done, you don't really have to cast them repeatedly. there are of course always a few exceptions here depending on the commander, but for the most part its been fairly common to only need/see 1-2 per game before it ends.
How many turns does a game last?
my meta is a little faster and a few of us have tracked it over time. for the most part our findings were really similar, turns 5/6/7 are where the meat of the game happens, with all turns before that being mostly setups. by turn 8/9 the majority of games are over, this is indeed where everything comes together. of course, sometimes games run longer if there's enough spot removal to deal with whatever is being thrown down, or if someone shows up with a deck specifically created to force the long game.
How many attacks are made in a game? How many by a single player?
our group also has similar results to theirs. i've seen even really aggressive commanders tend to hang back if there's any risk. its tough to absolutely say how much attacking is going, and it will vary depending on deck - for instance yuriko is going to attack a lot - prime speaker zegana not so much. where it does match up to their findings exactly is the tendency to hang back and do a single player/game ending attack. sometimes leaving yourself wide open just isn't worth the risk, so most will aim for the sure thing. why sacrifice all your early game duders if on turn 6 you can hoof out.
How man my spells which cost 6+ are cast by a player or in the while game?
we're by no means cedh'ers. some of our group think they are, but don't even know what a chrome mox or a sphere of resistance does. that said, our games are also fairly low in terms of cmc. a lot of us recognized the importance of momentum, of affordability, you often can't wait to have 6+ mana to deal with something, and you'll often end up being stopped by a player that's playing more efficiently at a lower curve. the number one thing that drives away new comers to our group is that they've aimed too hard for late game 6+ mana plays, and we've all aimed for lower curves. what good is one spell thats easily stopped if you can instead cast 9 that are all working together to barf your deck our. its an inevitability of any group to see a curve get lower and plays become more aggressive. my own decks rarely see more than 4-5 cards in the 6+ mana range. a lot of the things that get spoiled every set that people say OMG EDH STAPLE really aren't. they're cut or not even considered. a high casting cost doesn't automatically make something good.
all in all, i think this kind of video, as well as this kind of discussion, point out the glaring differences between some edh players. is one strategy better than the other? well... it depends on the group. inevitably i feel that any group that's consistent is going to fall more in line with the conclusions drawn here as its just the nature of becoming more competitive and wanting to beat your friends. there's nothing wrong with that. the hope would be those that are frustrated that they can't keep up, or that everyone tries too hard, or OMG I ******* HATE ISLANDS dudes will see some of this and realize that its time to tweak their decks. it wont' happen because that type of player doesn't actively analyze their meta or their deck, but that would be the hope. that someone would make the connections here and go oh, time to not run everything in green that's 9+ mana with no way to get there
One important point on how often commanders are cast is hot often they stick. I've found that commanders that are central to the gameplan tend to get cast when they are prepping to win, or can be protected. You don't need to cast a commander more than once if the game ends before it dies. So this is an interesting data point but not necessarily a reflection on the importance of commanders to the format, as actually being really important to the deck can lead to the commander being cast fewer times do to it winning the game or the pilot protecting it, or recurring it.
An interesting stat would be how often is a commander removed each game.
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Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
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Link:
https://youtu.be/rtfqJjLbADA
To begin, even they admit to a small sample size. So, is the whole episode a waste of time as a result?
Secondly, I feel in many ways it has some confirmation to things we have written about for years and have had some interesting back and forth talks on.
I, for one, have a pet peeve about how often preview cards and spoilers are often dismissed and a caveat added on "but it will be good in Commander" while I am sitting here thinking, "No. Just because a big splashy creatures or spell costs 6+ doesn't mean it will be good in Commander." I know it doesn't matter and I can dismiss the card, but it bothers me that it is said and influences how people evaluate cards and perpetuate these myths.
I'm the video there are some key talking points that I remember and wanted to address:
How often do you cast your commander?
They claim the number is an average of less than twice per game and even low cmc commanders are far under 3 times peer game.
I agree with this and have found that interesting when talking about building around one's Commanders.
Lowcmc Commanders are often not worth paying the tax for a third time or more (6 generic Mana). High cmc Commanders are often too expensive to cast a third time, let alone more. Even middle of the road CMC Commanders (say 4-6 Mana?) Are not worth paying 10-12 on even if you get that late in the game.
This is why having ways to get your commander back from the graveyard or to return it to your hand is far better than letting it return to the command zone after you have cast it a second time... assuming you have in the first place.
How many board wipes are played in a game?
Again, they say somewhere more than one and less than two on average and almost never three or more.
This is close to my heart as someone who owns an Edgar Markov deck and am sick of hearing how that deck folds to a board wipe. Not to get off topic, but a well built Edgar deck can easily rebuild from a wipe or two, and rarely does one ever see a third. If any deck would, it is an Edgar deck, and with all of the card draw mine has, even a third wipe is just a speed bump which forces everybody else to reset as well.
Asin any game of magic, you never want to over extend, but if there ever was a time to, it would be after a second wipe, as the chances of a third are slim to none.
How many turns does a game last?
They found the range of 8-12, with more ending at 9 than any other turn.
I tend to agree with this data point as well. Some games will take longer but are the exception.
I find that turns 1-3 are where we fix our Mana, cast ramp and utility.
Turns 4-6 are where threats, answers, and card draw is cast.
I have found turns 7-9 are when the explosive plays are made. The punches and counter punches. Attempts at combo and stopping said attempts. Players end to get knocked out and the game swings on a key choice of who to take out and how the following turn goes.
How many attacks are made in a game? How many by a single player?
I found it interesting and also a confirmation that many decks don't attack at all or might make as few as two attack in an entire game, while the "beat down" deck attacks as many (or few) times as 6 per game.
What can we learn, if anything, from this?
How manny spells which cost 6+ are cast by a player or in the while game?
This was another low number, and the sample size was not looking at cEDH games.
As has been said on The Command Zone many times and I agree with deeply, it is far better to chain together multiple lowered cmc spells than it is to cast most single haymakers. Sure, there are some very powerful high cmc spells, but many are cheated into play rather than cast... often by said cheaper cmc spells you chain together.
How often do you cast your commander?
I think this is a different answer based on a few things:
How many board wipes are played in a game?
So the way this is worded makes it sound like people shouldn't play around board wipes as much, but I take this result to mean that people need to play more board wipes overall.
I tend to run 3 boardwipes per deck, if able - it can shift a bit depending on the deck, and go anywhere from 2 to 5, but 3 is my starting point. I also like to draw cards, and occasionally run some narrow tutors. Often I look for boardwipes with synergy, and that I might be able to recur.
If I see a third of my deck in a game (which, given starting 7 cards, and say... 10 turns, and that I should be trying to draw at least one extra card per turn (in order to play both a land + card per turn) - seeing a third of my deck is not unreasonable. Given those assumptions - I should, on average, see a board clear in my hand.
Now, each of the other three players should be doing the same - which means in theory - each of them should see a board clear. In theory, there should be roughly 4 available board clears in any given game.
I'll be the first to say that that theory doesn't match up with what I see played. Partially, because I know that some of my opponents aren't running 3 board clears. Some of them aren't drawing enough cards. If they die to not having a boardwipe - they should probably look into that.
How many turns does a game last?
This is highly dependent on the meta. In fact, all of the other question's answers are HEAVILY influenced by this question alone. If you're playing a turn 5 tuned meta with combo - everything changes compared to a turn 10-15 battlecruiser slugfest. More turns = more mana, and more opportunities to do ANYTHING.
Also, this is the most useless question there is. There is no reason to average a battlecruiser turn count with a tuned combo meta turn count, and that's not even getting into cEDH. I've played games that have gone over 25 turns. I've played some that ended at turn 5. They were very different metas, and very different ideas of fun, and they belong nowhere near to influencing each others metrics in this category.
How many attacks are made in a game? How many by a single player?
I feel this answer changes if you're in a combo meta or not.
How man my spells which cost 6+ are cast by a player or in the while game?
I... question this one. Frost Titan is a 6+ cost spell. Ulvenwald Hydra is a 6+ cost spell. Are they specifically talking about instant/sorcery haymakers? I might get behind it if it was only non-creature spells, but even then a good number of upper end wraths can fit in the 6+ range, and those aren't game enders.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
their conclusions are about the same as my experience in my local group. even the most aggressive commanders tend to not be cast more than about 2 times. the tax ends up high enough where there are just better plays, unless the entire deck revolves around the commander as the sole means to win. we've upped our spot removal to deal with threats/combos and it incidentally also helped deal with commanders pretty consistently. a lot of them act more like enchantments, or one shot spells than true creatures. there's always exceptions to that.
How many board wipes are played in a game?
my local group's results again mimic what they've said. most of us are running just 1 board wipe. we all pretty much saw the necessity of spot removal and toned down our wipes in favor of that. plus, almost any time the table actually needs to be wiped someone has one. it only takes 1 to get the job done, you don't really have to cast them repeatedly. there are of course always a few exceptions here depending on the commander, but for the most part its been fairly common to only need/see 1-2 per game before it ends.
How many turns does a game last?
my meta is a little faster and a few of us have tracked it over time. for the most part our findings were really similar, turns 5/6/7 are where the meat of the game happens, with all turns before that being mostly setups. by turn 8/9 the majority of games are over, this is indeed where everything comes together. of course, sometimes games run longer if there's enough spot removal to deal with whatever is being thrown down, or if someone shows up with a deck specifically created to force the long game.
How many attacks are made in a game? How many by a single player?
our group also has similar results to theirs. i've seen even really aggressive commanders tend to hang back if there's any risk. its tough to absolutely say how much attacking is going, and it will vary depending on deck - for instance yuriko is going to attack a lot - prime speaker zegana not so much. where it does match up to their findings exactly is the tendency to hang back and do a single player/game ending attack. sometimes leaving yourself wide open just isn't worth the risk, so most will aim for the sure thing. why sacrifice all your early game duders if on turn 6 you can hoof out.
How man my spells which cost 6+ are cast by a player or in the while game?
we're by no means cedh'ers. some of our group think they are, but don't even know what a chrome mox or a sphere of resistance does. that said, our games are also fairly low in terms of cmc. a lot of us recognized the importance of momentum, of affordability, you often can't wait to have 6+ mana to deal with something, and you'll often end up being stopped by a player that's playing more efficiently at a lower curve. the number one thing that drives away new comers to our group is that they've aimed too hard for late game 6+ mana plays, and we've all aimed for lower curves. what good is one spell thats easily stopped if you can instead cast 9 that are all working together to barf your deck our. its an inevitability of any group to see a curve get lower and plays become more aggressive. my own decks rarely see more than 4-5 cards in the 6+ mana range. a lot of the things that get spoiled every set that people say OMG EDH STAPLE really aren't. they're cut or not even considered. a high casting cost doesn't automatically make something good.
all in all, i think this kind of video, as well as this kind of discussion, point out the glaring differences between some edh players. is one strategy better than the other? well... it depends on the group. inevitably i feel that any group that's consistent is going to fall more in line with the conclusions drawn here as its just the nature of becoming more competitive and wanting to beat your friends. there's nothing wrong with that. the hope would be those that are frustrated that they can't keep up, or that everyone tries too hard, or OMG I ******* HATE ISLANDS dudes will see some of this and realize that its time to tweak their decks. it wont' happen because that type of player doesn't actively analyze their meta or their deck, but that would be the hope. that someone would make the connections here and go oh, time to not run everything in green that's 9+ mana with no way to get there
An interesting stat would be how often is a commander removed each game.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!